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View Full Version : An independent Sweboz overview



Mightypeon
04-02-2007, 19:48
Hi there,

while this is not a real AAR, or a gameplay guide in the strictest sense I would nevertheless like to share my thoughts about the Sweboz campaign.

Preword:
First things first, I must confess I was utterly amazed by the amount of detail of the German provinces. The Amber route, the various sacred place and the individual tribes with unique units added a lot to my game.

1: What I did:
The Swebok stat with 1 province an a healthy amount of Men. Without changes, the economy will be dry after one turn.
Considering the fact that I am nearly completely broke, I intended to have as view casulties as possible.
I grouped my men into 3 armies. One conquering eastward (Gawjam Rukoz, Auscalis, Githaras Oscan, Seljum Pilis).
My second group quickly took Gawjam Silengoz. It then joined with the troops in the capital to take Gawjam Habukos, Gawjam Heruzkoz, Gawjam Hattos, Gawjam Kimbros and Gawjam Skandoz.
The fights went pretty smoothly after each of the amy reached a number of 3 family members. I usually let them take charges. They regenerate, the other unit do not. My Archers and Spearmen conserved themselves for a while, while my Cavalry number quickly dwindled.
Anyway, The German horses seem to be the worst bar none.

Going onwards, I conquered a large amount of neutral land, including Belgicae to the west and Tribus Basternae to the east.

I managed to get peace treatys with both Gaulish factions.

The Romans attacked me like 2 turns after I signed an Alliance with their Epirote enemies. I found this behaviour to be a refreshing change from the seemingly random AI declarations.


Another great thing I observed throughout the gme is the fact, that rebel brignads appear signiicantly less often than they used to in vanilla.
Considering that I hated fighting 3-4 rebel stacks per turn in Vanilla, this is a change I applaud to.

What I did not like is the lack of knowledge.
When I start building regional or general warrior homes, I have no idea what kind of units I could actually get later.
Some kind of help here would be very nice.
Would it be possible to give a player an overview on the units he could build in a province?
I think this would significantly increase the gaming experience.


And now lets start with some less founded criticism.
To put it simply, the next part is about internal balance of the German units.
This is more an idea than a complain, considering the incredible amount of units, I was amazed by the level of balance achieved by the team.

I also had some problems with what I perceive as internal imbalances in the German army.
I found that Klumbakarlos (German Club Man) are completely redundant.
They cost about as much as Fraemeharjoz(German heavy Spears), and are worse in every single aspect. Lower stats, no Spears, even lower unit size.
The other units had clear and defined roles (levy Spears for Garrison duty, Skirmishers for Ambushing, Archers for ehm Shooting etc.) however, Club man cant do anyhting that heavy Spears could not do better.
My suggestions would be: A) increase size, B) significantly decrease cost and upkeep C) Maybe bring back war cry.
I would also like to see some High end German units.
Right now, my endgame armies look like my early game armies with some Mercenary riders thrown in and better weapons/bonus chevrons etc.

What I think is historically incorrect is the pathethic german Cavalry.
Historically, Caesar made great use of German mercenary Cavalry units in his Gaullish wars, where they proved to be significantly better than their Gaullish equivalents.
Especially the Uebian Cavalry was famous for that.
If a general Tier 3 German Cavalry is impossible, than what about adding them as special troops in noawdays Baden-Würtemberg (Should be around Vendilicopodus)?
Maybe make them a Medium Cavalry that causes fear in horses.

Orb
04-02-2007, 21:48
I think a new German cavalry unit is being added, but that's a 'wait-and-see' issue ;)

The ridoharjoz aren't actually bad, they're just lighter than the hippophiles among us would like.

Teleklos Archelaou
04-02-2007, 21:51
Glad you're enjoying it. I'll tidy up the title if you don't mind. You didn't by chance download EB from the latest Gamestar issue, did you? :grin:

Mightypeon
04-03-2007, 11:03
I am currently starting a new Sweboz campaign.
5 out of 6 factions close to me (Aedui, Averni, Casse, Lusitanians and Dacians) have not conquered any provinces. So my perception of the game is propably spoiled.

JeffBag
04-03-2007, 12:51
Displayed stats aren't everything; for more detailed information look at the Germanic unit sheet in the trading card thread. As you can see from there, clubmen have 14% chance of killing with an AP attack, while Frameharjoz only have 12.5% chance of killing, and without AP. Taking this into consideration, clubmen still suck badly with only an armor value of 1, and since almost every single unit in Germania and Gaul are pretty much unarmoured, their main use is quite redundant. Maybe you can bring just one unit per stack just to flank and kill generals, until you can get Merjoz.

ElectricEel
04-03-2007, 15:54
I agree, the Klumbokarlaz are inferior to the spearmen until later in the game, when you are fighting factions with heavily armoured units, such as the Romans. Even then, they'll suffer far worse from missile fire, do not get bonuses against cavalry, and will not have access to the tighter formation of the spearmen. I'd like to see them made two or three hundred mnai (that is the unit of money used in EB, right?) cheaper to recruit than they are now - maybe then they'd get some use.

Another thing - the Scandinavian Warband is very expensive, considering its limited effectiveness. I understand that being able to recruit them from the 1st MIC level partly justifies their cost, but considering they are still weaker than the significantly cheaper Germanic Spearmen, I don't see why I would ever recruit them expect in very desperate circumistances.

EDIT: Turns out that the Scandinavians (and the Chaucii warband) have the 'Fast Moving' attribute. I guess they could be useful for chasing routers before you have cavalry, but I'm not sure that justifies their cost.

Mightypeon
04-06-2007, 22:58
I am currently advacning quite nice.
I have (in my new game) conquered an amount of roughly 19 provinces.
However, taking rebel Patavium brought me to war with roma, which is quite nasty Considering I need about 6 turns to get Batacori or Spearman reeinforcements.


My field army is composed of two generals units, some Gaullish Mercs, 2 Gaulish Cavalry mercs (Am I just stupid or how do I build German Light Cav?) and some 8 Celtish (non merc) Slingers.


I also discovered that German Skrimishers(Swainoz) are propably amongst the best in the game, hiding, fast moving, stats nearly equal to a Spearman and, as far as I get it, more ammo.
I am beginning to play around with them a bit more, so far, they seem to be the best unit in the German roster. In addition, they have much slightler losses then Framehorjaz thanks to their ability of shooting stuff they dont want to tackle.

ElectricEel
04-07-2007, 18:28
One thing that occurred to me - according to game mechanics discussions I've read, units with spears get a -4 penalty to attack against infantry (and +4 against cavalry). That might make the spearmen a bit weaker than they appear. I probably should test this at some point.


(Am I just stupid or how do I build German Light Cav?) I think you'll need a level 4 MIC. They'll be the only cavalry unit you can recruit from your home terrorities (you might be able to recruit heavier cavalry in e.g. Gaul, but I've read Sweboz recruitment is a bit barren outside their home areas - but I guess you can rely on mercanaries).

The skirmishers do look pretty good. I'm in the progress of switching to using Cheruscii Warbands as my line units in my current campaign, but I might also add some of those skirmishers to my armies.

ElectricEel
04-08-2007, 13:18
Okay, I've tested the club warriors vs. germanic spears matchup in custom battles, and the spears have a very clear advantage. The spears suffer 20%-50% casualties, depending on the timing of the javelin volleys, and rout the clubs after inflicting 85%-90% casualties. This invalidates the "spears get a penalty against infantry, so the matchup is not as unfair as it seems" theory.

Watchman
04-08-2007, 13:41
The "spear" bonuses/penalties only apply if the unit has been given the appropriate weapon attribute in the EDU. In EB no spear unit that uses only spears for melee has been given it (instead they get verying degrees of anti-cavalry bonuses in the "mount_effect" line); units with the phalanx formation need it for their primary weapon so the formation works, and some of the "double armed" spear/sword units (Celtic and maybe Sweboz heavies, some Hellenic guard units mainly) have it for their spears.

Far as I can tell the club dudes are intented as "cheap and cheerful" mass infantry for dealing with the heavily armoured troops many of the Sweboz' neighbours start getting later on, and as such don't have too much use against most Eleutheroi armies. Assorted axemen, nevermind those scary Wodanawulfaz, are a higher-quality version of the same theme.

The Ridonharjoz kinda suffer from the fact about everyone and their dog near the Sweboz starting regions has a spear and is thus pretty good against cavalry, and their overhand cavalry spears may still have some statting issues (there's still an across-the-board consistency problem with these in the EDU). However, they should do well enough on flank and rear charges and as router-chasers, and ought to be able to cream the Celtic Leuce Epos types in a straight fight due to their higher base combat skills (the latter are of the underhand cav spear type with very low base attack, high delay, high charge and AP - not a very good combination against high-skill low-armour enemies like the Sweboz obviously).

ElectricEel
04-08-2007, 22:18
Thanks for the clarification on the spear penalties.


Far as I can tell the club dudes are intented as "cheap and cheerful" mass infantry for dealing with the heavily armoured troops many of the Sweboz' neighbours start getting later on, and as such don't have too much use against most Eleutheroi armies. I figured that was their role. Still, it probably would not hurt to reduce their cost, considering that as they are now, they are pretty much redundant in the early game, and do have significant weaknesses compared to other units later on when they become useful. Also, considering that they use poorer-quality equipment than other units that have the same level of availability, it would be logical (though they do have a lower upkeep cost already).

A few minor problems I've noticed about the Sweboz units:
-The shirtless (foreign-employed) varieties of germanic spears put their shirts back on when you zoom out enough that they switch to a sprite instead of a model.
-There's some inconsistency in which units can benefit from weapon upgrades, and which cannot. Levy spears have the 'light' weapon type, which means they can upgrade, but the javelin-chucking varieties of spearmen have the 'missile' weapon type, which is not upgraded by a blacksmith.

LordCurlyton
04-09-2007, 00:45
Maybe I'm the lone dissenter, but I think the clubmen are just fine. Mainly that is because they are FAST, in fact I think they may be faster than any other non-cav unit (at least any I've encountered, and I've encountered a lot). When I played as Sweboz I almost always kept 4-5 in a stack. Great for killing Romans, phalanxes, and pesky skirmishers (I ran down many with these guys). They are almost perfect flankers for the Germans due to their speed since your locking units will take far less casualties that way, as opposed to using a heavier, slower flanking infantry. Heck, if I could recruit them as the Romans I'd use them as a decent light infantry backup to my legions and send them to the East to deal with all those armored phalnxes. :laugh4:

ElectricEel
04-09-2007, 17:50
I didn't notice they were fast-moving.

Doesn't their description state that the romans used germanic clubmen as auxiliaries?

LordCurlyton
04-09-2007, 22:13
That it does, but as the Romans I have yet to find a province I can recruit them in and since they don't seem to pop up as mercs (Germany is rather sparse in the merc department) I guess I'm stuck churning out more Marian legionaires:laugh4:.

Watchman
04-10-2007, 00:10
I didn't notice they were fast-moving.The Herthoz/Ferulharjoz/Gastiz armoured heavies, the Merjoz and the Bastarnoz-Swaiut are about the exact only Sweboz infantry who aren't. Light gear has its perks.

ElectricEel
04-10-2007, 16:41
How many different speeds of infantry units are there in EB?

Watchman
04-10-2007, 21:48
EB mainly uses "fast" (the _fast_ skeletons in DMB) and normal speed, but RTW 1.5+ actually has _slow_ and _semi_fast_ skeletons besides those. IIRC the Thorakitai Argyraspidai/Dosidataskeli have the dubious honour of being the sole users of fs_slow_spearman. Mind you, not all of the EB-specific skeles (say, fs_o_f_spearman (overhand infantry spears)) have the full range of speeds either.

Personally, I've juggled unit speeds around a fair bit. It just didn't seem done for the Peltastai to be normal-speed...

ElectricEel
04-10-2007, 22:13
Thanks for the information. I was wondering, as only a few of the germanic units actually have the "fast moving" ability in their description, and the results I was getting among the lightly-equipped units in testing were a bit inconsistent.

Watchman
04-10-2007, 22:47
I know a good portion of the ability descriptors in export_units are, with all due respect, junk and occasionally downright wrong. Edited the lot out of mine and just went by what the game engine deigns to display on the UI sheet.