Russian attempts to false history.

[KrooK]

Last time into Auschwitz Museum Russian exposition has been closed.
Of course who russian government disagreed because according to them
" Poles are trying to false history ".

Watching this situation I can see how big liar is Russian government and how dangerous is this country for everyone who want peace into Europe.

These Russians forgot to tell that into exposition were being written that people from part of Poland occupied by Russians after their attack on Poland into 1939 (Russians attacked together with Germans) were called citizens of USSR. They forgot to write too that into 1939-1941 over 1.200.000 from these territories were taken to Syberia - especially to Workuta (gold mine, conditions practically like Auschwitz). Of course by Russians.

For me its proof that Russia is not USSR but they are using same methods.
They will never agree that they started war. In my opinion their fault is equal as Germans. Furthermore now they are trying to do everything to hide that.
But truth will be always on top.
What do you think guys?

[BDC]

I wouldn't worry.

I went to the official Chinese museum in Tibet, it was rather amusing. In a sad sort of way.

[CrossLOPER]

Um... link? Any link. NOT THE DAILY MAIL?

[RabidGibbon]

Does the current United Kingdom have a debt to pay with reference to slavery?

Perhaps.

Does Russia have a debt to pay in the causation of WW2, because under Stalin they did bad things and allied with Hitler.

Perhaps.

Nothing in History is ever clear.

The Connection in my mind is that the British Empire has as much to do with the current UK as the USSR has to do with the current Russian government.

USSR did side with Hitler at the start of the war, and they were punished something shocking for their niaviety. Can we however still isolate Russia for the sins of their Communist fore fathers?

If I was a member of those states that were stalinised I would be pissed off about the whole Iron Curtain, so I suppose I cant judge, but I do want to say that in my limited experience holding a grudge had never brought any benefits.

[Suraknar]

"History is written by the Victors"

Someone said that...I think...

[CrossLOPER]

I'm still waiting for a link.

[Csargo]

I'm not sure what to think. Of course I'm not even sure what were talking about.

[cegorach]

I'm still waiting for a link.



It was written in Russian 'Kommersant', though if I am correct the 'conflict' was created by this newspaper.:thumbsdown:

It seems that Polish-Russian relations are 'too good' for this newspaper.:inquisitive:


@RabidGibbon



USSR did side with Hitler at the start of the war, and they were punished something shocking for their niaviety. Can we however still isolate Russia for the sins of their Communist fore fathers?

Naivety ... :inquisitive: oh please...

[KrooK]

Want link
read previous post and use google :)
Imagine that if you were sitting on Kolyma, your point of view on USSR and Russia would be different. It's still same country with same mentality.

[Husar]

Such things happen and Putin tries to make the mothercountry look better.
He's an old commie so what did you expect?
I think people in Russia should start voting for someone else as long as there are other candidates left to vote for.:juggle2:

[Conradus]

Naivety ... :inquisitive: oh please...

Stalin was quite naive in signing a no-attack treaty with Hitler and then expecting not to be attacked (even while he was preparing for an assault himself)

In any case the Russian people suffered under their leaders and Russia bore the grunt of the war, they won it for the West, unfortunately they occupied eastern europe for another 50 years.

[macsen rufus]

I don't agree that Stalin was being naive at all, rather it was classic Machiavellian double-dealing. It's just that he didn't expect the Nazis to attack FIRST. He thought HE was going to attack them first... As for the original story, I'm sure most countries have a rosy view of their history, not least those where ex-leaders can be airbrushed out of photographs and written out of the history books.

[Stig]

Do you still believe Germany wants to invade Poland as well, Krook?

[KrooK]

No - I believe that they want take our sea road next to Stettin.
Anyway Germany with Russia always wanted weaken Poland.
They are doing it now. If they aren't stopped once for ever, Poland will be always endangered.

You are very good example Stig.

[Conradus]

That sea road was given to Poland after WWI, not too suprising Germany never accepted that border. Isn't it natural for any country to try and weaken its opponents. Anyway, it's not like they're trying to do that again.

[rory_20_uk]

If it is a previous government many years ago why try to falsify the truth?

Other things suc as the 4.5 million that were starved to death by Russia in the 1930's probably didn't make it to the list either, or the fact the Russian death toll in WW2 was also in large part due to the purge of the Officers in the 1930's, the paralysis of the leadership at the start of the war, etc etc.

~:smoking:

[CrossLOPER]

Want link
read previous post and use google :)
Imagine that if you were sitting on Kolyma, your point of view on USSR and Russia would be different. It's still same country with same mentality.
WELL then.

[Del Arroyo]

Naivety ...

Naiveté

[Spino]

If it is a previous government many years ago why try to falsify the truth?

Other things suc as the 4.5 million that were starved to death by Russia in the 1930's probably didn't make it to the list either, or the fact the Russian death toll in WW2 was also in large part due to the purge of the Officers in the 1930's, the paralysis of the leadership at the start of the war, etc etc.

~:smoking:

Those human wave tactics they used against the Germans didn't help either...

:smg: :charge::army::army::army::army::army::army::army::army::army::army: :whip: :evilgrin:

[PanzerJaeger]

:daisy: :daisy: :daisy:

[Louis VI the Fat]

No - I believe that they want take our sea road next to Stettin.
Anyway Germany with Russia always wanted weaken Poland.
They are doing it now. If they aren't stopped once for ever, Poland will be always endangered.

You are very good example Stig.I would love to say this in a nice and sensitive manner, but I don't really know how to so I'll just be blunt:

There are no evil German plans for the weakening of Poland. There is no resurgence of German nationalism. The ghosts of the past are dead. Europe doesn't hate Poland. The EU is not a means to undermine Poland. There are no evil outside forces plotting to betray Poland.

What is real however, is a recent burst of Polish paranoia combined with a twisted, xenophobe, conservative, Catholic, extremist and misguided sense of nationalism that's gone horribly wrong.

Reality is, that the whole of West-Europe is quite willing to accept Poland as an important partner in Europe, embraces it as country with a great past and a promising future, and is often unaware of but not unwilling to learn about Polish history, perspectives and sensitivities.

So get a hold of yourselves mates, Poland deserves much better than this. Here's hoping you follow Spain's example. And I don't mean the Spain of the conservative backlash and that silly, failed military coup ten years after Franco. I mean the Spain of thirty years later, the rich Spain that is at ease with itself and is culturally totally hip and happening.

How the Kaczynski twins are dragging Poland back in time


The latest clash between the EU and Poland's government, headed by the troublesome Kaczynski twins, Lech (the president) and Jaroslaw (the prime minister), has reinforced the fears that, rather than bringing a fresh and forward-looking perspective to the club, Poland is increasingly playing the role of the introspective and unreliable partner.

That President Lech - the younger by 45 minutes - has suggested the EU should reconsider its ban on the death penalty has alarmed other members. In so doing, he has deliberately attacked one of the core values held dear from Reykjavik to Athens and seen as a condition of membership to a union that Poland joined amid high hopes just two years ago.

Jaroslaw - who was brought into power by his sibling last month - swiftly came to Lech's defence, saying that it was his "private opinion" and "we're not aiming to make any such proposal right now".

But the words "right now" have rung alarm bells in some quarters. How many politicians have managed to turn "private opinion" into public policy? And with more than 70 per cent of Poles said to be in favour of capital punishment, there is a political furrow ready and waiting to be ploughed.

With local elections due in Poland this autumn, it is clear to domestic observers that the stout and silver-haired brothers - who came to fame at the age of five when they starred in a film - are already on the campaign trail. The junior partners to their Law and Justice party (PiS), the Right-wing nationalist party Self-Defence - whose leader has praised Hitler and counts Belarussian dictator Alexander Lukashenko as a friend - and the ultra-Catholic League of Polish Families are standing poorly in the polls. The death penalty topic now forms the main plank of their populist campaign.

The brothers also know that the concept of the strong man Poland standing up to the evil outside goes down well with the electorate and also helps to divert from other more pressing issues, such as Poland's 18 per cent unemployment rate.

Yet the EU's largest new member is attracting increasing condemnation and ridicule amid the twins' regular colourful expression of their extremist views on issues from homosexuality - which they equate with paedophilia - to anti-Semitism, racism and the slighting of most minorities.

"We are radical," admits Jaroslaw, an eccentric, cat-loving bachelor who is said to be distinguishable from his brother only on the occasions that he forgets to brush the cat hairs off his trousers. "Poland needs a certain amount of radicalism to change and cleanse."

That is, it seems, to be at the centre of the brothers' political raison d'être. Brought up as fervent patriots, the sons of intellectual, resistance-fighting parents who read them history books rather than fairytales at bedtime, and instilled in them the sense that they were wronged, their goal - or what they call their "moral revolution" - is to protect Poland from the outsider. The outsider is no better personified than in the forms of Russia and Germany. Passionate conspiracy theorists, they even consider the fall of communism to have been a secret "plot" between the communists and Left-wing dissidents.

An integral part of their moral clean-up includes the instigation of a "truth and justice commission", a McCarthy-style body, which will seek to rid all communists from public life.

The EU, say the brothers, is a threat because of its overly-liberal, Western-oriented, anti-Catholic ways, which have so far made no room for Poland's Catholic conservatism.

The way the brothers are treated in the media only serves to reinforce their sense of being wronged by a liberal elite.

When a Left-wing German newspaper portrayed the brothers this summer as insular and narrow-minded "new potatoes" who knew nothing about Germany except the toilets at Frankfurt airport, Lech cancelled a meeting with German and French leaders, citing "stomach pains". The Polish foreign minister threatened to sue Germany, comparing the culprit newspaper to a Nazi rag, and media close to the twins published the contact details of German journalists working in Poland. Germany politely reminded Poland that it was home to a free press.

The incident spoke volumes about the brothers' style of rule and the sense of paranoia currently sweeping Poland, where foreigners and the Chief Rabbi have been beaten up.

Only a year ago, Poland was being applauded as a role model for the rest of New Europe, as a fresh new player within Nato and the EU and a participant in Iraq. But as a conservative European parliamentarian recently said: "Slowly but surely, Poland is moving towards the same level of respect for fundamental rights and human rights as Turkey."

[SwordsMaster]

So get a hold of yourselves mates, Poland deserves much better than this. Here's hoping you follow Spain's example. And I don't mean the Spain of the conservative backlash and that silly, failed military coup ten years after Franco. I mean the Spain of thirty years later, the rich Spain that is at ease with itself and is culturally totally hip and happening.


It ain't as pretty as you paint it, but your article about Poland is quite worrying...

[-Praetor-]

Stalin was quite naive in signing a no-attack treaty with Hitler and then expecting not to be attacked (even while he was preparing for an assault himself)



The naives are the ones that believe his words when he said that he didn`t expected a war with germany.

[JR-]

Does the current United Kingdom have a debt to pay with reference to slavery?

Perhaps.


not as far as i'm concerned.

any tally has long since been paid off by spending 50 years sending the RN around the world sinking slavers.

besides which, who will compensate us for eating all our missionaries?

[KrooK]

And I was warned :) BEcaue I replied on Stig personal attacks.

Germany and Poland signed treaty into mid 90ties. Due to that treaty sea road on Stettin Gulf is polish. But German ships (both civil ships and navy ships) keep breaking that treaty. Some months ago one of civil ship hijacked polish custom officers when they discovered illegal cigarettes on board.

And Louis
Imagine that on East EU and Poland are not only sides of this game.
Do not forget about Russia. EU is supporting Poland and Poland really likes EU (despite its government).
Problem is that Germans into their relations between Poland and Russia sometimes forget that both Poland and Germany are into EU. They prefer to improve german-russian relations even if it is injuring EU. And if something into that region is injuring EU, it is injuring especially Poland.:smash:
Good example would be gas main. Germany decided to build gas main with Russia under Baltic Sea. Problem is that PART OF BALTIC SEA WHEN THEY WANT BUILD THAT GAS MAIN is into polish economical area. I won't mention how it changes energetic situation into eastern europe.
When they finish their gas main, Russia will be able to cut gas to whole Europe.


All in all Louis I don't put my noose into french businesses because I'm sure you know it better than me. But please do same because imagine I know better what is happening on mine country borders :)

[Ser Clegane]

And I was warned :) BEcaue I replied on Stig personal attacks.
Just to be precise: you were alerted (i.e. no "damage" done to you)to make sure that this thread focuses on the topic you put up for discussion instead of being distracted by personal "issues".

On topic (or rather on your subsequent post)

Problem is that PART OF BALTIC SEA WHEN THEY WANT BUILD THAT GAS MAIN is into polish economical area.
Please define what you mean by "economical area".

[Adrian II]

Let me get this straight. Stalin is building a pipeline through Auschwitz and it's all Germany's fault?

[CrossLOPER]

Let me get this straight. Stalin is building a pipeline through Auschwitz and it's all Germany's fault?
https://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o273/CrossL/1freeinternet.jpg

[cegorach]

@Krook

Would you shut up, please ...


@Louis VI the Fat


That text is one year old - from 'the Guardian' if I am not wrong.

I must admt that I wonder how little is known my country if the way it is perceived can be changed so easily in some media.

I cannot agree with that picture, but it is neither the topic here nor anything useful to discuss.


Enough with this off-topics -before more Polish-haters (only one is here) will arrive.


The whole thing is silly - 'Kommiersant' wrote about stopping 'a Russian' exposition, Russian politics as usual reacted blindly, without any knowledge and old imperial arrogance. Polish newspapers described it and it appeared in the news - that is all.

I doubt it will continue - it is the usual Kremlin blunder, a self-made scandal without any importance or influence on the already ice cold relationship.

The end.:egypt:

[CrossLOPER]

@Krook

Would you shut up, please ...


@Louis VI the Fat


That text is one year old - from 'the Guardian' if I am not wrong.

I must admt that I wonder how little is known my country if the way it is perceived can be changed so easily in some media.

I cannot agree with that picture, but it is neither the topic here nor anything useful to discuss.


Enough with this off-topics -before more Polish-haters (only one is here) will arrive.
Oh my. Well I guess someone who actually lives in Poland should know more than others. I mean it's not really fair to pull up every negative thing about a country and its politics and paint a biased picture... wait...


The whole thing is silly - 'Kommiersant' wrote about stopping 'a Russian' exposition, Russian politics as usual reacted blindly, without any knowledge and old imperial arrogance. Polish newspapers described it and it appeared in the news - that is all.

I doubt it will continue - it is the usual Kremlin blunder, a self-made scandal without any importance or influence on the already ice cold relationship.

The end.:egypt:
Hmm.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I was already looking forward to the replies of Sarkrookzy and Ségorach. :beam:


And Louis
Imagine that on East EU and Poland are not only sides of this game.
Do not forget about Russia. EU is supporting Poland and Poland really likes EU (despite its government).
Problem is that Germans into their relations between Poland and Russia sometimes forget that both Poland and Germany are into EU. They prefer to improve german-russian relations even if it is injuring EU. And if something into that region is injuring EU, it is injuring especially Poland.:smash:
Good example would be gas main. Germany decided to build gas main with Russia under Baltic Sea. Problem is that PART OF BALTIC SEA WHEN THEY WANT BUILD THAT GAS MAIN is into polish economical area. I won't mention how it changes energetic situation into eastern europe.
When they finish their gas main, Russia will be able to cut gas to whole Europe.


All in all Louis I don't put my noose into french businesses because I'm sure you know it better than me. But please do same because imagine I know better what is happening on mine country borders :)I'm quite convinced that you know more about Poland than I do. But what an outsider lacks in inside information he can make up with lack of prejudice too. A foreign perspective is always refreshing. :2thumbsup:

What I really know too little about, is Russia and it's relationship with it's former satelite states. I can't figure Putin's Russia out. Are we witnessing the birth of a Soviet Union lite? I dunno. Hence I tried to limit my previous post to commenting on the Polish - German / EU relationship.

I realise that Poland definately drew the short stick when it comes to twentieth century European history. Sucks having been stuck between the hammer of Facism and the anvil of Communism, to have to undergo two foreign occupations, especially when there is a long, nasty history of partitions by Russia and Germany already. It takes time to come to terms with this history. But it's also 2007. WWII was two centuries ago. Unlike Russia, I do know Germany somewhat well, and it doesn't resemble the caricature that Poland (it's press? government?) seems to think it is.

Also, when France loses a war to Germany, she then simply invades an African country and slaughters a million natives to up her self-esteem a bit. I realise Poland does not have this fortunate luxury.


As to Russian gas, yes, the new pipeline will ensure gas supplies even in the event of Russia cutting off Ukraine and Belarus - and thus, Poland. I can see your problem. Map spoilered:

https://img289.imageshack.us/img289/5586/pipelines3pq.jpg

Russia is now free to pressurise Belarus and Ukraine, without sacrificing it's relationship with western Europe. It can soon cut them off and still supply Europe with gas.

I must say I share the worry about Europe increasing its reliance on Russia in this manner. I'm not alarmist about Russian - German relationships. If anything, Germany is as worried about the combination 'Russia, gas, dependency' as anybody else.


BERLIN: Gazprom, Russia's state- owned energy monopoly, agreed to a long-term supply contract with Gaz de France in exchange for the right to sell Russian natural gas directly to consumers in France.

But the contract also renewed concerns about whether Europe was headed down a dangerous path by relying more on Russia, which already supplies a quarter of the natural gas consumed by the 25 countries in the European Union. Critics fear that Russia may use its position as a major supplier of natural gas as a political weapon.

None of those concerns were on display Tuesday, when Alexei Miller, chief executive of Gazprom, and Jean-François Cirelli, chief of Gaz de France, signed the agreement Moscow. The deal represents a victory for Gazprom, which for several years had been trying to enter the French retailing market.

"Without a doubt, the agreement will contribute to energy security in Europe and France," Miller said. Cirelli said that "the extension of our commercial cooperation with Gazprom helps to ensure the long-term reliability of our customers' supply in France and in Europe."

Gaz de France said that it had no choice but to comply with an EU directive for member countries to open their energy markets to domestic and foreign companies.

Russia, in contrast, does not allow foreign companies access to its vast network of pipelines and has refused to ratify the EU's energy charter, which, if implemented, would create some degree of reciprocity in the energy market between Europe and Russia.

In return for access to Gaz de France's pipelines, Gazprom agreed to extend its natural gas supply contracts, which were set to expire, to 2030, agreeing to sell 12 billion cubic meters a year to Gaz de France. In addition, Gaz de France will receive 2.5 billion cubic meters annually from the new Nord Stream pipeline, a joint Russian-German project in which Russia will be able to send natural gas directly to Europe by building a pipeline under the Baltic Sea.

The project, which will have an annual capacity of 55 billion cubic meters, is scheduled to be completed in 2013, and will reduce Russia's reliance on Ukraine and Belarus as transit countries.

Besides France and Italy, Gazprom also sells directly to consumers in Germany, Austria and Britain.

Compared with Italy and Germany, France is far less dependent on Russian natural gas imports. Russia supplies more than a third of German natural gas, but only 19 percent of that used by France, whose biggest vendor is Norway, followed by Russia, Algeria and the Netherlands.

Some Europeans, however, are becoming increasingly alarmed about the EU's growing dependence on Gazprom, the only Russian natural gas exporter, fearing that President Vladimir Putin will use energy supply as a means of political and economic coercion.

[Louis VI the Fat]

That text is one year old - from 'the Guardian' if I am not wrong.

I must admt that I wonder how little is known my country if the way it is perceived can be changed so easily in some media.

I cannot agree with that picture, but it is neither the topic here nor anything useful to discuss.

_____

The whole thing is silly - 'Kommiersant' wrote about stopping 'a Russian' exposition, Russian politics as usual reacted blindly, without any knowledge and old imperial arrogance. Polish newspapers described it and it appeared in the news - that is all.

I doubt it will continue - it is the usual Kremlin blunder, a self-made scandal without any importance or influence on the already ice cold relationship.

The endI'm still clueless about the actual topic of this thread, 'Kommiersant' writing about stopping 'a Russian' exposition. I can't find a link.

I do enjoy discussing Poland with you and Krook though. We don't always have to agree to have a pleasant exchange of opinions. :yes:

[rory_20_uk]

Poland is nice. Without its labour force Britain would be a worse place. Do you want some of our native workshy ingrates in exchange? :2thumbsup:

But the realpolitik is that we can do without everything that Poland has. We can't do without Russia's gas. It's insanity that we've got ourselves in this mess but there we are. Russia in turn likes the EU as we give it loads of money in decent hard currency for the energy.

Power politics means that it needs to be able to strong arm the small states whilst not affecting its big clients. If this means bypassing Poland then why not. Every country would want the pipeline to end with them, as they then can in extremis control supplies. Weighing up Poland verses Germany isn't difficult.

Cutting off the EU is possible, but expensive, and would usually serve no point.

The increase in renewables that we are all on about it in part to reduce the massive dependence that we have on Russia.

I thought that France was given the West of Africa. Otherwise she might forget herself and surrender again.

~:smoking:

[KrooK]

@cegorach No way!!!
My lacks of history and political correction I overcome by massive killing on multiplayer :) Furthermore I'm going to use my freedom of speech.


@rest of the world Actually there is easy way to overcome Russian gas problem. It is called gas from Turkmenistan and oil from Azerbejdzan. If whole EU decide to cooperate with that countries and build pipeline from them to EU (around of through Black Sea) - Russians will be shut down.

[Husar]

@rest of the world Actually there is easy way to overcome Russian gas problem. It is called gas from Turkmenistan and oil from Azerbejdzan. If whole EU decide to cooperate with that countries and build pipeline from them to EU (around of through Black Sea) - Russians will be shut down.
But by trading with Russia, we can also threaten THEM. We may need their energy, but they need our money even more. They're not selling tickets for space flights because they are so rich.

And no, we don't plan to incade your country again, some here just feel it's the other way around since thousands of polish workers got their jobs. And I'm not blaming the polish for that, they just take their opportunities to make some money and work hard for it. But our workers cannot compete with their wages and are thus simply fired which isn't nice either. Well, I don't know, just wanted to say that the invasion is the other way around. ~;)

[CrossLOPER]

Actually there is easy way to overcome Russian gas problem. It is called gas from Turkmenistan and oil from Azerbejdzan. If whole EU decide to cooperate with that countries and build pipeline from them to EU (around of through Black Sea) - Russians will be shut down.
Got something to tell you here, bud.

[cegorach]

I'm still clueless about the actual topic of this thread, 'Kommiersant' writing about stopping 'a Russian' exposition. I can't find a link.

Sadly the original text was in Russian (hardly my most fluent language)

and the rest is often in Polish. So I will describe the situation as it is.
Facts:

1.'Kommiersant' writes that Poles are going to close the exposition about Russian and Soviet victims of the death camp in Auschwitz.
2. Russian politicians comment it with the usual anti-Polish attacks - in such cases we are blamed for everything 'petty malice, anti-Russian conspiracy, occupying Kremlin in 1610-12, that we are not greateful for the 'liberation in 1944-45 etc'.
Generally noone cared about asking the museum in Auschwitz about the whole thing, but that is hardly anything new.
3. Polish press describes the whole thing so do the other media here.
That is why Krook wrote the initial post.
I didn't care because we have similar scandals with Russia every two weeks - last time we were 'pirates' who are producing Russian/Soviet weaponry without license, before that something else popped up etc...:laugh4:


The fact is that the exposition was closed by the Russian side...



Of course there was one thing more (the proverbial spark in the gunpowder store) - the Russian politicians started repeating the old lie that the citizens of Poland which lived in the territories invaded and annexed accoring to the Ribbentropp-Molotov Pact who were forced to Soviet citizenship WERE Soviet and that it was all voluntary and the territory wan't occupied at all - just like with my grandfathers and grandmothers who would tale you all how 'voluntary' it was.
This way the Russian politicians forget that the R-M Pact was declared null and void even by ... Stalin himself. It would be a good thing for them to learn their own history first.:wall:



So overall we have the usual situation of baseless accusations mixed with pseudo-historical rubbish, but the presidential and parliamentary elections season has been started in Russia already so no wonder...
Though... actually even without it the whole 'scandal' might appear - the Polish-Russian relations are so 'good' and Russian politicians are hardly the most polite people.



Unlike Russia, I do know Germany somewhat well, and it doesn't resemble the caricature that Poland (it's press? government?) seems to think it is.


It is more about incompetence of the ruling parties here in the international area, but not only there, I guess...

Merkel cerainly is far better than give-me-this-work-in-Gazprom-and-I would-sign-anything the former chancellor of Germany Mr.Schoeder.:yes:
Still there is a degree of controversy which can be exploited by certain groups in both countries - basically the Polish LPR which doesn't exist in the polls (support around 3 % despite its frantic efforts to find voters) and the German 'expelled' who have important position in CDU.
Add to this the superiority complex felt by some Germans towards Poland and almost complete ignorance of their population.
The contacts on personal level are always much better.

Overall I would say it is a mixture of incompetence, ignorance and other factors.



Also, when France loses a war to Germany, she then simply invades an African country and slaughters a million natives to up her self-esteem a bit. I realise Poland does not have this fortunate luxury.


Agreed. Winnign the war against Germany and later finding out that as a reward you loose 60 % of territory and independence to another enemy can really piss you off - this explains some more 'impetous' responses.
Sadly everything cannot be changed in a second - that is why both old and new :daisy: appear in some media - that is why the texts about Poland becoming authoritiarian still appear here and there, not too mention other, sometimes sensitive cases.
I wonder what happens when the ruling parties will finally lose the next elections - will be 'heroes of Europe' again ?

Currently every petty 'journalist' feels free to pour bile if he wants too - some of them little scums who come out of their slimy holes and enjoy a moment of attention - just like the text in 'El Pais' where Poles are most loyal Hitler's followers who didn't fight at all during the 2nd WW...

The problem arises if someone treats this seriously - and sadly this is happening....:hmg:




I do enjoy discussing Poland with you and Krook though. We don't always have to agree to have a pleasant exchange of opinions. :yes:

The ORG is notthe right place to do so. I once tried and was called an anti-semite - ME.:wall: :smash:

Though I enjoy such discussions in the TWC, but there it is always easier because some of the Russian members there are some examples of extreme, nationalism so if I have a problem with answering often complicated questions there are always my 'rescuers' who start accusing Poland for everything and advising some solutions just like throwing a nuclear bomb on Poland which would surely 'solve all the problems with this filty nation'.:yes:

Open hostility is easier to deal with with than a biased point of view of people considering themselves 'informed'.:juggle2:



I was already looking forward to the replies of Sarkrookzy and Ségorach

Ohh please do not mix the French elections here... :laugh4:


GENERALLY

Because the Northern Pipe is getting some attention here I will make my statement too.


The thing is that it will go around Poland and the Baltic Republics which are critics of Russian policy for some time despite huge dependency on Russian oil and gas.

Sorry, but the very fact is enough to get worried - because with the pipeline the gas will be sent to the rest of the EU around us whatever happens cutting the supplies to US and the Balts will be possible and there is no doubt it is used as a political weapon a club to beat those pesky 'little states' in the former zone of influence.
Besides it causes some additional danger to democratic movements in Belorus and Ukraine - if you think that cutting supplies becuse of the 'technical difficulties' ( case of Lithuania and Mozeikas oil rafinery) cannot affect elections you should think again.


Because we are in the EU it means it is also dividing the countries of the EU by the very fact that only some would be in danger and the supplies would go undisturbed anyway. Isn't it ?:inquisitive:

[Conradus]

@rest of the world Actually there is easy way to overcome Russian gas problem. It is called gas from Turkmenistan and oil from Azerbejdzan. If whole EU decide to cooperate with that countries and build pipeline from them to EU (around of through Black Sea) - Russians will be shut down.

Why should we trade one undependable regime for another? At least now, they're close, so that must lower the cost somewhat. Azerbeidzjan is far away and going through the Middle East isn't the most favorable thing for any pipe line.

[Brenus]

“she then simply invades an African country and slaughters a million natives”: The land was yet invaded (Bugeot and Abd El Krim in the 1840-50)… And the figures of million of natives is a light exaggeration, considering that a tenish of years later after Independence the slaughtered came in mass to work in the genocidor’s country…
Exaggerations should not follow denial…

“2. Russian politicians comment it with the usual anti-Polish attacks - in such cases we are blamed for everything 'petty malice, anti-Russian conspiracy, occupying Kremlin in 1610-12, that we are not greateful for the 'liberation in 1944-45 etc'. “ Remind me something about French and US comments few years ago. It didn’t mean that US want to invade France but an expression of, err, them being P… Off, nothing else…

History is always used by politicians and it will not change… The Russians have problems to admit Kathyn (sp?) and the Poles have difficulties to admit the massacre of the survivors…
After Eltsin’s disastrous reign (from the Russian point of view) Putin is rebuilding a pride to an humiliate former Power…

There is absolutely NO proof that Stalin was preparing an invasion of Germany… What we do know is that Stalin forbade the Red Army to resist in the first days, believing it was a mistake, even after the Russian Air Recon had pictures after pictures proved that the Germans were amassing troops at the border… That is to re-write history…

[Adrian II]

I think I finally understand what this thread is about.

There is little love lost between Russia and Poland, but that is not the issue here. Neither is the issue the present Polish government, a bunch of morons at the best of times. Look East and you will see a bunch of much more dangerous warlords and incompetents ruling Moscow.

The issue is that Poland is a democracy, a member of the EU and a member of Nato, and Russia is neither of those three things. And for a reason: Russia is not a democracy and it is trying to revive some of its old imperial traditions. The Auschwitz incident is one example of that, albeit largely symbolic. But the baseline is that the Russians should keep their :daisy: hands off our :daisy: Poles.

That is why the pipeline is a problem. And it is part of a larger problem, the increasing dependence of the entire European Union on Russian gas.

[CrossLOPER]

Anyone want some wood?

[Blodrast]

There is absolutely NO proof that Stalin was preparing an invasion of Germany… What we do know is that Stalin forbade the Red Army to resist in the first days, believing it was a mistake, even after the Russian Air Recon had pictures after pictures proved that the Germans were amassing troops at the border… That is to re-write history…

Hehe, we haven't had that argument in a while... maybe it's time to do so, again! :sweatdrop:
Ok, since I don't mean to hijack the thread, we can discuss this by PM, Brenus, but my main point was that it seems to be there was enough proof that Stalin was planning an invasion of Europe...

Anyway, I don't wanna derail the thread, so I won't pursue this here. Please continue, gentlemen, and forgive my interruption.

[Sarmatian]

I think I finally understand what this thread is about.

There is little love lost between Russia and Poland, but that is not the issue here. Neither is the issue the present Polish government, a bunch of morons at the best of times. Look East and you will see a bunch of much more dangerous warlords and incompetents ruling Moscow.

I wouldn't consider Putin warlord or incompetent. In fact, he is as far from these things as possible.



The issue is that Poland is a democracy, a member of the EU and a member of Nato, and Russia is neither of those three things. And for a reason: Russia is not a democracy and it is trying to revive some of its old imperial traditions.

I don't what is democracy for you, but generally a system where people choose the president and parliament is considered a democracy. Or do you think that Putin and his mates are dictators and that they are abusing system? On more than one occasion Putin said that he wouldn't want to change the constitution to allow him a third term (although it was well within his powers). Coming from a man who is supported by more than 70% of the population, it really means something.

I don't see how building a pipeline is reviving some "old imperial traditions"? Imperialism for me is more like... let's say... invading a country because it allegedly has weapons of mass destruction. Thank god that some EU and NATO members weren't involved in that. Now that would be embarassing



The Auschwitz incident is one example of that, albeit largely symbolic. But the baseline is that the Russians should keep their :daisy: hands off our :daisy: Poles.

That is why the pipeline is a problem. And it is part of a larger problem, the increasing dependence of the entire European Union on Russian gas.

And the alternative is? Use russian gas for free? They shouldn't charge EU? Or better yet, invade russia (at least it has WMD, so there would be no need for lying) and take control of its gas, oil and other resources? Maybe even sell it back to them? And threaten them that their gas and oil would be restricted to them when they misbehave? Well, russia is not africa so that would be a bit tougher to do.

There is a solution - don't use russian gas. There are lots of much more expensive energents that eu could use. Why bother with cheap energents? After all, it's not like it is "democratic" gas.

Like it or not, russia a major european power. Cold war is over. In the future, there will be even more cooperation of eu and russia. But cooperation means two or more equal partners. EU can't expect to use russian resources and give nothing in return. Unlike some democratic, nato countries that invade other countries for oil to strenghten their strategic influence, russia is merely using it's own resources, located in their territory. But than again, I may be mixing democracy and imperialism. I'm not sure just how we decide which country is democratic and which is imperialistic. Maybe some countries are just created that way, and what is done after isn't important... Or maybe a country is considered democratic when it's a member of eu or nato...

[Louis VI the Fat]

Open hostility is easier to deal with with than a biased point of view of people considering themselves 'informed'. Oooh, that's vile, below the belt and brillianty executed. Been studying in France perchance? :beam:


the Northern Pipe is getting some attention here I will make my statement too.

The thing is that it will go around Poland and the Baltic Republics which are critics of Russian policy for some time despite huge dependency on Russian oil and gas.

Sorry, but the very fact is enough to get worried - because with the pipeline the gas will be sent to the rest of the EU around us whatever happens cutting the supplies to US and the Balts will be possible and there is no doubt it is used as a political weapon a club to beat those pesky 'little states' in the former zone of influence.

Because we are in the EU it means it is also dividing the countries of the EU by the very fact that only some would be in danger and the supplies would go undisturbed anyway. Isn't it ?See, this is what an exchange of opinions can do. Thanks to this thread I'm reminded again that not everything is Polish hysteria, but that Poland is sometimes simply right.

Yes, it's all poor show (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20070402a2.html) of the EU. The very point of the Union is that together we stand tall. Yet, we acted like a bunch of cowardly fools, each one of us being tricked into dealing with Russia seperately. All out of the desire to guarantee gas supplies to our own country.

Challenging Russia's energy dominance


By KEITH C. SMITH
WASHINGTON -- When Gazprom, Russia's natural-gas monopoly, cut off supplies to Ukraine and Georgia in January 2006, the move was widely seen as a clear warning of the Kremlin's willingness to use its energy resources to exert political influence over Europe.

Twelve months later, Russia drummed home the significance of that act by shutting off oil supplies to Belarus for three days, causing a ripple effect on shipments to Western Europe.

Despite these supply-side threats, there have been few signs of an effective European Union-wide policy that would reduce dependence on Russian energy. The European Commission's energy proposals, issued in January, are a step in the right direction, but they will have little direct effect on Russia's energy relations with Europe, because they do not oblige Russia to adopt more competitive and transparent energy transport and investment policies.

On the contrary, European countries continue to forge bilateral deals with Russia, with little consideration for common EU interests. The West European EU members have shown scant concern over Russian pressure tactics against the new members in Central and Eastern Europe, calling into question the extent of EU solidarity regarding energy supplies.

Since the Kremlin interrupted energy supplies to the Baltic states in 1990 in a futile attempt to stifle their independence movements, it has continued to use pipeline politics against countries such as Poland, Latvia and Lithuania -- all new EU members. For them, and for new democracies like Ukraine, Georgia and Moldova, Russian energy dominance and its political consequences remain a serious threat.

Russia has profited from Europe's disarray by moving to cement greater long-term European dependence on its energy, particularly natural gas by continuing its divide-and-rule tactics toward European governments. Since January 2006, Moscow has negotiated separate deals with energy companies from Germany, France, Italy, Hungary, Serbia, Slovakia and Denmark that could undercut Europe's efforts to build additional pipelines aimed at bypassing Russia's near monopoly of supplies from Central Asia.

It initially appeared that Germany under Chancellor Angela Merkel would be more sensitive to the energy security of Central and Eastern Europe. However, Merkel approved the expensive Northern Europe Gas Pipeline (NEGP) beneath the Baltic Sea, negotiated between her predecessor Gerhard Schroeder and President Vladimir Putin, and strongly opposed by fellow EU member Poland, which the pipeline will bypass. The NEGP will cost at least eight times as much as the alternative Yamal II pipeline, which would have gone overland through Poland.

Despite the European Commission's good intentions, the EU's larger members continue to resist submitting to a common EU energy policy. In mid-November, EU foreign ministers failed to agree on a common approach to Russian energy -- just as reports resurfaced that Russia may seek to establish a natural-gas cartel similar to OPEC.

The EU's political will to counter its increasing dependence on Russia in the immediate future is thus open to serious doubt. Indeed, for the next five to 10 years, Russia will be able to fulfill its gas contracts in Europe only by monopolizing exports of gas to Europe from Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan and Uzbekistan. But the EU so far has chosen to ignore that Gazprom's monopoly is a clear violation of the antitrust and competition policies of the revised Rome Treaty and WTO obligations.

Russia clearly believes that the current tight world energy market and high prices give it enough leverage over the West to maintain its current approach. Russia consistently refuses to allow Western companies the same access to Russian facilities that Russian state energy companies already enjoy in Europe and the United States. That is likely to remain true as long as the West fails to adopt an energy strategy that causes the Kremlin to change course.

Putin denies that Russia is using its energy resources to coerce European governments, arguing that the decrease in gas supplies to Western Europe during the cut-off of gas to Ukraine in January 2006 was the result of Ukrainian "theft." In its dispute with Belarus in January 2007, Russia leveled a similar accusation of theft from the oil pipeline that crosses the country. It also claims to have been subsidizing the price of energy to the Commonwealth of Independent States, when in reality it is the Central Asians who have been subsidizing Russia to an even greater extent.

Although the EU Commission appears to be committed to building a more open, competitive energy market in Europe, action against Russia's noncompetitive practices within the EU has taken a back seat to internal differences over takeover battles for national energy "champions" involving companies from other member states.

Russia must be convinced that its resources will be far more valuable if they are opened to international investment, managed transparently and operated according to the legal and commercial rules of the international trading system. But that is unlikely in the absence of strong and unified European action.





I don't see how building a pipeline is reviving some "old imperial traditions"? Imperialism for me is more like... let's say... invading a country because it allegedly has weapons of mass destruction. Thank god that some EU and NATO members weren't involved in that. Now that would be embarassing

EU can't expect to use russian resources and give nothing in return. Unlike some democratic, nato countries that invade other countries for oil to strenghten their strategic influence, russia is merely using it's own resources, located in their territory. Or maybe a country is considered democratic when it's a member of eu or nato... Yes, but some of these EU members have only recently joined the western alliance. They wanted to show they were reliable partners by participating in the Iraq invasion. Some others didn't join. This was poor show of the EU. The very point of the Union is that together we stand tall.

Meanwhile, there have been several summits between France, Germany and Russia recently, in which France and Germany have safeguarded their own Russian gas supplies through a direct pipeline, bypassing Poland.

This means Poland is left out in the cold. The whole of 'new Europe' is. Maybe Warsaw should've been more picky in it's choice of friends, and shouldn't have passed up on that excellent opportunity to remain silent during the row between Paris and Washington...


[off-topic]

“she then simply invades an African country and slaughters a million natives”: The land was yet invaded (Bugeot and Abd El Krim in the 1840-50)… And the figures of million of natives is a light exaggeration, considering that a tenish of years later after Independence the slaughtered came in mass to work in the genocidor’s country…
Exaggerations should not follow denial…Ah well, it was said half in jest. ~;)

As to the other half, the reality: yes, I do think the defeats of 1870 and 1940 had a most unfortunate backlash in our colonial behaviour. Here was a nation that felt it had something to prove. This was felt doubly so in the military, always one of our more conservative, even: reactionary, parts of society.
The aggresiveness of the colonial expansion after 1870, and the excesses of decolonisation in Françafrique, Indochine and Algeria after 1945 are partly owing to a compensation for the feeling of humiliation.

[cegorach]

@Brenus


History is always used by politicians and it will not change… The Russians have problems to admit Kathyn (sp?)


They have no problems with admitting Kathyn - which was a Belorussian village massacred by Germans during the 2nd WW - there was even a huge monument to commemorate it.:yes: Though by 'pure coincidence' the Katyn forest nearby didn't got any attention and even speaking the word 'Katyn' got you imprisoned untill early 1990s....



and the Poles have difficulties to admit the massacre of the survivors…

Only amongst some ( not too numerous, though) people, but never on the governmental level which is a huge difference comparing to Russia where denial is used by authorities.:thumbsdown:







Oooh, that's vile, below the belt and brillianty executed. Been studying in France perchance? :beam:

Thanks !:laugh4: Reminds me why the Poles are sometimes called 'Frenchmen of the East' - charm, arrogance, pride, bravery, the importance of the language in the region (in the past - not too distant) and attributed love of intrigue and of protesting/anarchic behaviour.
Of course we do not use intrigues at all.:juggle2:

OK, we do... :laugh4:

Off-topic - personally I always liked the Estonian term to describe us 'Guardians of the Gate' - - hmmm 'Lord of the Rings'... between Saruman and Sauron, I guess.:clown:


See, this is what an exchange of opinions can do. Thanks to this thread I'm reminded again that not everything is Polish hysteria, but that Poland is sometimes simply right.

Agreed, but here it would be said that we 'always are right'. Ok, at least usually ( don't mention the Cossack uprisings or the last elections...).


Yes, it's all poor show (http://search.japantimes.co.jp/cgi-bin/eo20070402a2.html) of the EU. The very point of the Union is that together we stand tall. Yet, we acted like a bunch of cowardly fools, each one of us being tricked into dealing with Russia seperately. All out of the desire to guarantee gas supplies to our own country.

Exactly - any Polish ancestry ?:beam:




Meanwhile, there have been several summits between France, Germany and Russia recently, in which France and Germany have safeguarded their own Russian gas supplies through a direct pipeline, bypassing Poland.

Since history is very popular here such meeting immediatelly reminded us Locarno.


This means Poland is left out in the cold. The whole of 'new Europe' is. Maybe Warsaw should've been more picky in it's choice of friends, and shouldn't have passed up on that excellent opportunity to remain silent during the row between Paris and Washington...

Almost quoting my 'favourite' French president. You can't imagine the impact of his words in Poland.:inquisitive:
It is not in our custom to stay silent in general and especially in cases when we are interested.:yes:
Since a long time ago ( at least 1989) we are trying to strenghten our bonds with the USA and the EU at the same time. When it comes to our security the choice is quite obvious - the USA - the only country which helped us so much in the whole history ( 1917-22) which even the grim reminder of Yalta ( actually Tehran, but the later is a symbol) didn't manage to overshadow it.

Sadly even I moderately anti-American cannot find any other choice as an ally than the USA that is why I support that intervention and our involvement + most other ones including the anti-missile shield.
Maybe said as a true pro-American, but it is done because there are little (or no) alternatives from our point of view - the only really reliable allies we ever had except the USA are Hungary, Romania (together with its earlier versions) and ironically Germany :yes: and ... Japan.
Currently the USA and Israel are our picks.:yes:

BTW I am especially glad with Israel since we had some glorious past together with the Jews other similarities ( e.g. we both are convinced we are 'a chosen nation' - since there is a difference in religion it can exist at the same time without problems ;)) - sadly half-forgotten, ignored and under fire of extremist groups from both sides..



Regards Cegorach:egypt:

[KrooK]

Hehe mr the Fat
When Chirac said that Poland lost opportunity to be silent, he behaved like de Gaulle. But as Mr Bartoszewski said about Chirac - "If you want behave like de Gaulle, first you have to be de Gaulle." Otherwise you behave like idiot.
Chirac is for me rather Laval than de Gaulle. He can't cope with any bigger problem. Some immigrants with molotov coctails and he have to apologise that he live :) De Gaulle would finish it better.

And there is something else. Of course problem with gas affect whole EU.
You are into mistake when thinking that it can affect Poland more than France. If there will be only one source of gas, who do you think will be ruling into EU? It won't be your favourite president of 5th Republic.
Actually Poland can loose all Russian gas. We still have carbon.
More carbon than Germany and France together. So when Russians turn off gas - we simply increase our mines. It will resolve situation for common citizens. Factories will be using polish gas (right forgot to tell that we have some too :D ) I wonder if France is into same situation.:juggle2:

[Brenus]

I wonder if France is into same situation” Renew the Algerian Contract…

[cegorach]

Yes they have the algerian alternative, though I am a kindaa worried about the whole 'gas OPEC' thing which appears to be Kremlin's next project.




OK. I just wanted to inform you what happened to the entire case with museum exposition.

It seems to be over - Russian side (fortunatelly no more politics) decided to remove any remarks about 'soviet' Baltic states, Moldavia and eastern Poland and will reduce its message to the facts that Russian POWs were killed in the camp and that Red Army liberated it.

Good because the international comitee which decides about virtually everything in the museum protested against hijacking the exposition by some irresponsible Russian politicians.


Interesting thing that the case existed in our (polish) media for about 1-2 days (except 3-4 texts untill now) contrary to the Russian side where it was even discussed by their parliament with the usual anti-Polish accusations augmented by the press (mainly Kremlin-controlled).

One notable text really made me laugh.
The newspaper called 'Niezavisimiya' - which is Gasprom's property if I remmeber correctly - in English 'Independent' (yeah right,,,) thrown a decent amount of :daisy: 're-discovering' the case of Soviet POWs 'murdered' in Poland in 1920-22 which becomes in the essence almost a custom whenever a scandal appears in the Polish-Russian relations ( ehhh once per month I guess).
This time the number of 'butchered' POWs is rised to 120 000 with up to 80 000 'killed' in Tuchola POW camp alone (in reality about 1 800 POWs died because of epidemics, mainly 'Spanish flu' ). Of course according to the newspaper it is all kept in secret in Poland - I guess the fact that when I became iterested in the case and 15 minutes later bought a detailed book about Tuchola camp for circa 5 Euro doesn't count at all ?

The entire thing reminds me Iran's claims that Holocaust never happened - the whole case of the POWs deaths has been investigated more than a dozen times with mixed Polish-Russian commision and other work done.
Nothing changes...I wonder how many deaths will be counted next time - 250 000 - a million or more ?:thumbsdown:

Overall I dislike arguments over a number of deaths, though in this case it seems amazing how Russian politicians and media seem ignorant of the data which is reliable and easy to access...

In other words another month in Polish-Russian 'warm' realtionship - it is pretty boring actually.:yes:

[JR-]

@Brenusshouldn't have passed up on that excellent opportunity to remain silent




Almost quoting my 'favourite' French president. You can't imagine the impact of his words in Poland.:inquisitive:
It is not in our custom to stay silent in general and especially in cases when we are interested.:yes:
Since a long time ago ( at least 1989) we are trying to strenghten our bonds with the USA and the EU at the same time. When it comes to our security the choice is quite obvious - the USA - the only country which helped us so much in the whole history ( 1917-22) which even the grim reminder of Yalta

Regards Cegorach:egypt:
agreed, poland had just left a regional hegemon, to have bowed to frances pressure to keep schtum would be admitting that poland had submitted to another one; the EU.

I also agree that poland is looking in the right direction, if it looks to the US for dependable and capable security.

oddly enough, we (the UK) always consider poland to be a reliable nation, maybe because you guys flew so many spitfires over the channel and never buckled or appeased. shame we let you down, running joke with my polish G/F is that poland considers Britain the same way Britain considers france :lol: