Strong defensive positions

[General Dazza]

I was defending against Poland a few nights back in Carpathia iirc, and I found what I think is the best defensive position I've seen outside of a bridge battle.

The battle map had mountains around the edges with a field in the middle, although the mountains jutted out into the field in places. The position I took up was in the corner of the map close to me.

It was at the top of a steep mountains rise. To the left was impassable terrain (white snowy bit) on the ridge which dropped down on the other side. This impassable terrain continued down most of the way to the field below. It ended at a round hill.

To the right was the edge of the map, but the rise continued around to the right and away with the side of the map. This created a kind of bowl effect.

The result of this setup was that the enemy had to march across the field and then go around the bump on the bottom left (no point climbing the rise there). They then had to swing round to the right to climb straight up the steep rise.

Before they got there though I had sent my mounted Xbows down to the bump to cause some mayhem before they got there.

Problem (for them) was, as they rounded the bump they were within range of my archers high above them. Because of this they didn't have time to reassemble, and the space they could march up wasn't wide enough for many units across in any case. So the effect was they came up the mountain strong out in dribs and drabs.

I took advantage of this and my mounted Xbows were able to mostly wipe out 3 of their ranged units. Once done my mounted Xbows sat on the right side of the bowl and peppered the rest with bolts.

The units that did make it up to my infantry (conveniently sheltering in sparse forest) were quickly turned by my FMAAs and cleaned up by my few knights.

End result was about 650 dead their side to about 60 my side. It would have been much worse if I had the right troop mix to really take advantage (only had 2 archer units, about 17 knights and 30 mounted Xbows, although my infantry were OK). But I think that any army with that defensive position is going to rain the pain on anybody game enough to take it on. :smash:

I think it warranted a sign at the base of the rise which reads "Welcome to the killing zone. Please enjoy your (long) stay" :skull:

Anyone got a similar defensive position?

Sorry I don't have a pic by the way - hope the description makes sense.

[cegorach]

In PMTW I always enjoyed using self-made strongholds consisting of warwagons or fortified positions.


Warwagons were easier and possible to redeploy so I have used them more often, especially since I liked playing with Hungary.


Here it is - the big H

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/wagons.jpg

The sides are protected by firepower, defensive qualities of the wagons and cavalry/mounted infantry/infantry reserve.
The front of the formation was protected by musketeers of various types, sometimes supported by mercenary pikemen + there was the '-' section of the stronghold to shoot approaching foes.


Alternative version was using Fortified Position instead, but here it was always more important to deploy it correctly - not to leave them in a place they cannot be moved (because are immobile in the game.

https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/fort.jpg

Finally there is fully rafined wawagon stronghold based on Polish tactics from 1633 - a kind of big A but without the midsection -.

It was more difficult to deploy, but allowed more decisive and active use of cavalry in the fron section of the formation.


https://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b356/cegorach/polisharmywithwarwagons.jpg

Only formations using warwagons and fortified positions are 'on-topic' here - the rest are more 'field' tactical positions so I won't discuss them at all.

[bamff]

I had one battle as Sicily, defending sweden against a Danish invasion. They had 11,000 odd troops, I had about 2,000, BUT I had a defensive position which was like a raised "L" - two spurs at almost right angles, with ridiculously steep slopes.

I lined my arbalesters up along the top of these ridges and my chiv footknights and pikemen to screen them. My one concern was where the AI would approach from...but I need not have worried. They marched ever so conveniently straight into the centre of the L, taking the massed fire of arbalesters from both sides! What carnage ensued!

[General Dazza]

They marched ever so conveniently straight into the centre of the L, taking the massed fire of arbalesters from both sides! What carnage ensued!

Ahhh, good times! One thing I enjoyed about carpathia was that they had no option but to follow the 'yellow brick road' (which was later stained red :beam: ).

I had another strong position last night atop an almlost round mountain with a flat top (edge of map behind me). Spanish Jinettes in their scores reached the top to be hit by arbalest and crossbow bolts. It was good, but the AI played it badly. Still, happy with the kill ratio of 400 for me and 1500 dead/500 captured for them! :yes:

[caravel]

I, the Seljuk Turks (pocket mod)/early/hard, managed to catch a superior (in both numbers, general and valour wise) Byzantine army in a valley in Anatolia and pound them between camels and AHC yesterday. The Turcoman Horse shot them in and my last move was to deploy the Ghazis onto the flanks and let them loose. I was quite surprised the AI deployed into the valley actually, though it must have been indecisive of which point of high ground to redeploy to. Before it could make up it's mind my forces had moved into position anyway. My force consisted of 4 camels, 4 *****AHC, 1 Turcoman Foot, 2 Ghazis, 2 Turcoman Horse, 1 vanilla spearmen. The enemy force comprised of 4 Psiloi, 3 UM, 5 *******Kataphraktoi, 1 VG, 3 Skutatoi and 5 vanilla spearmen.

[Maloncanth]

On default MTWVI there are two hilly green maps I've seen several times in the Balkans and other parts of Europe which I assess as the best defensive maps simply because there are two of them, I can reasonably expect one or the other to show up in many critical battles in certain provinces. One of them involves a sharp hill overlooking low ground faced with cliffs and which I usually use defending against Poles or Hungarians. It is extremely difficult for the AI to assault and the only time they've ever come close was one battle against the Swiss in central Europe.

The other is a semi-forested map with a steep hill near the edge and in many cases, the AI seems to have trouble understanding how to flank you. I've parked a dozen units of arrow on there and conducted some terrific massacres.

The third is an extreme mountain map I've encountered maybe twice in Georgia. Sometimes I send an army there in the hopes of getting this map as it can be possible to hold the first wave of the Horde with a buildup starting in High.

[Kavhan Isbul]

The battle map General Dazza describes is usually found in Central Europe - Carpathia and a few other provinces, I Believe. I do not like it that much, because it does not allow me to spread my infantry and then outflank the enemy. It works great if I have superior missile troops such as arbalesters, but then once the enemy closes in on the few units guarding the only way in, it is a slugfest and since my archers have to be tightly packed behind my spears and swords, they can do little against the enemy from this point on. Having some javelins is a good idea, and Slav Javelinmen are usually readily available in this part of the strategic map.

Other than bridges, I like the Holy land and especially Antioch - it allows me to sit and wait while the enemy exhausts itself by marching through the arid ground. This perception of a strong defensive position might be tied to the fact that I usually fight the Eggies and their hordes of camel pincushions there, or alternatively, Crusader armies that get exhausted just as they come within range of my hail of arrows.

In the Balkans, in MedMod, I liked those forrested hills which allowed me to hide my Bulgarian Brigands and then massacre cavalry-heavy enemy armies in the woods.

Finally, I like Tyrolia and Switzerland, because there is simply no steeper battle map - my missile troops have forever to shoot at the advancing enemy, and then justs ending my heavy hitters down hill usually does the job. Cordoba also offers an interesting defensive position over what is a nice little pass, the enemy usually appears right in.

[gunslinger]

In the XL mod I've had similar defensive battles in the choke points between France and the Iberian penninsula. I can remember setting up on a super-steep slope with impassable terrain guarding both of my flanks. I only had two problems: #1 - It was tough to fit all of my troops into the protected area #2 My reinforcements didn't come from behind my formation. They had to come on through a pass a long way from my left flank. Occasionally, they would get intercepted on their way to the formation, and since they were usually missile units of some type, there wasn't much I could do about it without breaking up my formation.

In one of the battles, I didn't have any reinforcements, so I ended up with a trebuchet to deploy in my defensive formation. If you haven't run across this situation, I would recommend trying it once just because it looks so cool. In order to compensate for the steep slope, the front of the trebuchet was supported by a 3-story tall wooden scaffold. It was still pretty useless though.

[Martok]

Cordoba also offers an interesting defensive position over what is a nice little pass, the enemy usually appears right in.
I'm quite fond of Cordoba -- it's the site of one of my greatest victories (AAR in this thread (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=82266)).

In my battle, the map consisted of a long, moderately-sloped hill, and was fairly heavily wooded on the top (in which I hid most of my men). In addition, the sides of the hill were quite steeply sloped, making it almost impossible for the enemy (Almohads) to flank my position. In essence, the entire map more or less consisted of a large natural ramp, with me waiting at the top.

The end result of this was that the enemy (Almohads) were forced to march all the way across the map, up the hill, and straight into the middle of my formation -- which was precisely what I'd hoped for. ~:)

[Roark]

G'day Dazza,

Good to see another Aussie warmonger in here.

I know exactly the map and position you're talking about! Beautiful for ambushes. I launched a Hashishin nightmare onto some evil Christians on that map once. It's the only battle I've ever actually recorded for replay. Sweet.

[General Dazza]

G'day Dazza,

Good to see another Aussie warmonger in here.

I know exactly the map and position you're talking about! Beautiful for ambushes. I launched a Hashishin nightmare onto some evil Christians on that map once. It's the only battle I've ever actually recorded for replay. Sweet.

G'day Roark!

Not sure there's that many of us here. Don't regularly see that many daytime-ourtime posts.

It is a fantastic position. Even a human attacker would stand a slim chance (by my un-educated reckoning re multiplayer gameplay) against a defence with the right troop mix. The AI in my game stood no chance at all.

[Bregil the Bowman]

I have found Syria provides some excellent defensive terrain. One map gives you a slope over to the right hand that is all but impassable on the furthest side, making outflanking very difficult. Add to that the impact of the opponent having to cross desert to get there and you'll find this is the ideal spot for bringing a crusade or the Army of the Golden Horde to a spectacular standstill.

Switzerland also presents some excellent natural defences - there is one that provides a nicely-projecting flat-top hill ideal for placing troops in a defensive half-hex. Whichever side the enemy comes from they have to climb a steep slope in full view of whatever missile units you have to hand.

See here for what happened to a Sicilian crusade in Switzerland:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=47087&page=34

And see here for my response to the Golden Horde threat:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=61410

[seireikhaan]

Well, I had one battle in Lithuania where I fended off a byzantine invasion that was about my size, but they consisted of about 6 or so cataphracts and P.A., along with some biz infantry and spearman as support. Also, a unit or two of archers.

My force, consisting of only two cav(mounted seargeant and a jinnette, my general), was mostly vikings and huscarles, with a few landsmen as well. Ordinarily, their cav would have torn me up, at the least. However, this is Lithuania, famed for its woodsmen. Why do they need such good woodsmen? Because there's A LOT of forest. A single massive forest stretched from left to right, for a good section of my side of the map. I mean, this was the forest to end all forests.

I patiently waited for them, and the bizz foohardely charge nearly their entire cav line in the frontal charge. In addition, I left my mounted seargeant in yet another forest towards the edge of the map. The almighty cataphracts get repulsed and routed. The MS shoots from the edge of the map, collapses their flank, and runs roughshot over the entire army, as their morale collapsed upon seeing their toughest units come screaming out of the forest, which didn't include their general, a cataphract who died in the foolish assault. Their entire army soon routs, and the MS and Jinnettes have a field day, capturing, killing about 250 by themselves.

[Caliburn]

Maybe it was the winter but...

Lithuania can be a killer.

One of my most glorious defeats happened in Lithuania.

I lead a good quality, full stack Turkish army (Jannissary Infantry, Saracens, Ghazi and a variety of horses, no JHI yet) against a low-quality, full-stack army with lots of woodsmen and a couple of Lithuanian cavalry. The enemy were deployed inside the forest, and I engaged them carefully, but unable to use the missile power and the horses I had effectively. I'm not sure what exactly happened - the spears broke formation and missile infantry got bogged down early I guess - but in any case, the "New Army" got all but slaughtered. Great stuff that happens in MTW at times.

[The Unknown Guy]

The pyrinees often provide good battle maps against incoming armies.

In one of the older pocket mods, AKA: one that had not the "compound bow" modification for all troops described as using compound bows yet, I was fighting a battle in a map with a flat hill with mountains behind overlooking the path which the enemy had to take, meaning they had to come from the north-northwest, excepting units which attempted to flank, which wouldn´t really be a problem. I used an army composed of Almohad Spanish militia, or however they´re called, as shocktroops, some Muratibin infantry as protection for my ranged units, which were: three catapults for long range attacks (since in the PM muslims don´t get arbalesters, and besides, I like pounding my enemies with huge rocks almost as much as I like pounding them with heavy artillery), several crossbow sçuads for medium range (particularily effective in this context as there were lots of armored crusaders coming in from the north, althrough in general I tend to favor crossbows over "normal" bowmen in most situations, as they perform well if you time their shots right) and a naphta unit for close range, which I threw in for the hell of it, in case the enemy general came close enough to be locked in combat by one of my other units (preferibly something less expensive than the ones I mentioned earlier. I think I brought a cheap fodder unit -I always do when I bring naphta- but I don´t remember what was it). Which, after bouldering and crossbowing the incoming onslaught, was exactly what happened. To my glee. Naphta tends to either hit your own troops more than theirs, or get the AI paranoid after them, so I like the times when they fulfill their proper purpose, that is, blasting lots of enemy troops to bits in a few throws.