Pontus VS Seleukeia

[goolasso]

In my VH/VH campaign with pontus I soon remain in stall against the seleucids (that always betray you after your economy turn into positive). Their units (expecially generals that easily block entire groups of phalanx) are surely too strong if we think they were a decadent empire. How should I approach this campaign?

[Kralizec]

-Don't play with VH battle difficulty. It gives insane stat bonuses to AI units, causing levy spearmen to butcher your Thorakotai.

-the bodyguards of the AS (and Makedon and Ptolemais) are pretty tough, but they're not the best in the game actually. Just remember to always keep an eye on the enemy general, and envelop him when a good opportunity comes by.

-even in their decline, the Seleucid military was still pretty fearsome. At one time they had pretty much taken Egypt except Alexandria, and only threats from Roman diplomats prevented the Ptolemies from getting entirely pwned by them. In contrast, Pontus didn't ascend to a major power until the Seleucids had already collapsed.

[The Errant]

Play VH/M. VH battles do not improve the AI battle tactics, it just gives all their units insane morale boosts, where even a relatively low grade enemy unit can rout your elites.

Enemy elites, like the Seleucid generals bodyguards become nearly unstoppable monsters.

The only early unit you have that can put a dent in their armies are hordes of slingers. And they require a lot of micromanagement to use properly.

[Orb]

I recommend attacking the Seleucids. That way you keep the allies, not them.

[Kralizec]

I recommend lots of spies and assasins. The AS is so stretched that the cities in Asia Minor are pretty unruly and are easily encouraged to rebel. They might be less inclined to attack you if they have to reconquer lost cities every other turn.

[Pelopidas]

With Pontos you have to manage all battles by yourself, because you couldn't afford more than one army, and one defeat means the death of your kingdom.

Against Seleukids bodyguards, I tend to stop them with my Pantopadoï Phalangitaï and then, charge with the Persian bodyguard of the Pontos characters, who could give a good account of themselves in a fight.

Your main weapon shall be slingers, create as many as you can at the beginning, they worth it.

PS: and DON'T play in VH battle !

[Orb]

Pelopidas, you don't *have to* spam slingers to win, and it's pretty inaccurate and cheap to do so, so I don't recommend it.
If I weren't busy with Iberia, I'd fire up another short Pontic AAR to demonstrate decent use of other troops.

[Pelopidas]

Well, I have recently make a Pontos campaign until the faal of Antioch to my forces, and in my army there was " only " 4 groups of slingers. I make also a good use of the eastern skirmishers, and have a good amount of Thracian / Galatian units to fight one the flanks.

The Pontos cavalry is also very interesting, I never said something else !

But, for the first fights, I have usually to destroy three or four full stacks from AS until I get firmly Mazaka...and without heavy infantry and scythed chariots ( you can't afford them so early ) I doesn't see a way out of the slingers in the back of the Thorakitai Agyraspidai.

So, some tips of you would be very interesting :]

[Seyduna]

Attacking enemy units with slingers from their back is highly effective and from a hill it will be mass slaughter. You can draw their attention with your fast bodyguards to attack from rear.
But be careful to stop your fire when your engaged units' back is turned to your slingers.

[Dan_Grr]

Im playing on H/M. I don't plan on spending countless hours with slinger armies for making up the fact that the AI is a dork. Hard shouldn't put too much money on Arche Seleukia's hands, and it's a more balanced fight since you start out with 1 city, against an empire. My conscience is also clean, I've proven myself on VH on other campaigns. :beam:

[Morte66]

I've fought the Seleucids as Pontos for 20 years and I have a couple of thoughts:

- Slingers are dirt cheap. Slingers are absolutely deadly hitting a phalanx from behind. That's behind, not side on. To make this work you have to turn off skirmish mode, turn off fire at will (never waste ammo shooting heavy troops from the front), and micromanage closely. Spend half the battle paused and giving orders, so you can think for all your unit captains at once.

- Cheap spearmen will hold a phalanx long enough for slingers to sprint round the back and kill it, if their morale is good enough. Good morale comes from good generals, who are made by having one or two family members do all the commanding to get all the upgrades. Medium pike phalanxes will hold them just fine. [Anything more is a waste, the battle will be decided by other troops before the difference between two pike phalanxes shows.]

- Slingers will take some losses at times from peltasts etc, so be very careful to retrain them rather than merging them and get their experience up. By the time you get that silver chevron they'll be doing about twice their original damage. [Slingers are a mathematical oddity.]

- Horse archers (recruit at Kotais or hire mercs) do less damage than slingers -- they don't have the "effective against armour" descriptor, or the flat trajectory that works so well against packed formations. But the penalties for tactical errors are less: slingers die, HAs gallop away. HAs are expensive to hire but with low losses you spend less retraining them. And they can chase down routers, which is where half your kills come from in a lot of battles. You should never be letting more than 10% of the Seleucids leave the field alive, or you'll win the battles and lose the war.

- Beating phalanxes is all about manoeuvre. You want to be circling, pulling their line apart, destroying one phalanx at a time and killing the routers as the rest blunder around looking for targets. Motion is the key. All you need to do is learn to juggle chainsaws. After that it's easy.

- Unfortunately, Seleucid phalanxes keep company with skirmishers/spearmen/cavalry. Those can move, and they like nothing better than charging your horribly exposed missile troops. So make a virtue of necessity: whilst your missile troops are positioned to kill phalanxes, they are simultaneously bait. Cover them with cavalry or spearmen, and be ready to sprint the missiles away. Your covering forces charge into the flank of whoever chases your missile troops, melee ensues, and the missiles can now hit their pursuers from behind.

- Foot archers are for setting fire to siege engines. They're simpler to use in battle than slingers, but if you stick to simple tactics the Seleucids will conquer you.

- Offensive siege tactics... Use missiles to scare the enemy away from the walls and into the square. Batter your way in. Park slingers in the outskirts so they can just reach the square. Park defensive troups half way to the square. At those distances the slingers can fire over their heads despite the flat trajectory. Do this from at least two directions. Be very thorough with the preparation, and set hotkeys for single/triple speed so you won't go to sleep as your troops walk around town.

- Defensive siege tactics... Seleucid phalanxes are awesome street fighters since the walls secure their flanks. Don't fight defensive sieges if you can avoid it. Sally, or send relief troops. The key is having troops in the right place at the right time. You need roads and good intel to make this work on the strategic map.

- Don't forget that forts are free. A sacrificial unit of "poor bloody infantry" in a fort will hold up a huge army for a turn, while you concentrate your forces. And in the mountain valleys to your south/east they're great for channelling enemies and making them fight in places that suit you.

- Pontos starts with a level 10 spy. Put him in Seleucid cities with borderline public order for a while, and they'll rebel. That'll draw some troops off. And if you can arrange rebellions so you have no land frontier with them, you might even get a ceasefire.

My field army, that drove them out of Asia Minor:
- 4 pike phalanxes: anvil
- 4 slingers: hammer
- 1.5 merc horse archers: ok missile damage, good decoys, rout-chasers
- 2 family medium cavalry: cover the slingers, chase routers, charge weaker troops (especially missiles at the start of the battle)
- 2 spearmen: fast-moving defensive troops that can fill a hole when you screw up
That'll take out a great big seleucid army pretty reliably.

[The Errant]

Pontos can train HA in Ani-Kamah which can turn even large seleucid stacks to pin cushions.

Also the Scythed Chariots, while useless in a melee, are some of the best units to disrupt enemy formations. You can use them to break pike phalanxed and follow up with some decent melee units to cause massive casualties. Remember to drive them trough the enemy formation, not attack. They rout easily and run amok like elephants. Just click somewhere behind the enemy formation so they go trough it but don't stay to fight it.

Your generals bodyguard isn't much of a shock unit, but they can draw attention to themselves by throwing javelins on infantry who will have a hard time catching up. Use this to lure away elite units from the battle until you've won the main fight.

[Kralizec]

I didn't find chariots particulary useful when I was playing Casse, except for scaring the enemy and encouraging your own lines- but that doesn't apply for other factions' chariots. They can break non-phalanx under some circumstances, of course. The best strategy involving chariots would probably be skirmishing first, then chariots through the enemy lines, followed by an infantry charge. But even then I expect you'll lose lots of chariots against phalangitai.

[Morte66]

Also chariots seem like expensive units that need expenive barracks, especially early in the game before you've taken Anatolia and built mines everywhere.

[Thaatu]

If you use scythed chariots as the spearhead of a cavalry charge, it's absolutely brutal. As Seleucids I had to stop using them because battles were becoming too easy, but I'd recommend using them as Pontos.

[Morte66]

OK, when Pontos is declared more complete I'm going to start me a new game and try out them chariot doohickeys.

Might make better use of the spy next time, too. I didn't actually realise spies could cause unrest until I'd conquered Anatolia the hard way. That's despite him causing rebelions in Ankyra and Antiocheia that left me scratching my head wondering why they'd happened... :dizzy2:

[JeffBag]

Doesn't anybody use skirmishers? From the back they slaughter Pezhetairoi much faster than slingers. Sure, they only have 8 javelins, but after those 8, all you have to do is charge your skirmishers in and they are sure to rout.

I use chariots mainly to hold my flanks against cavalry, since cavalry are usually arranged more loosely, and are so big, that the scythes easily cut through them. 2 units of chariots on my left flank basically cut 3 units of Hetairoi into ribbons, and they only cost 1800 each!

[antisocialmunky]

If you use scythed chariots as the spearhead of a cavalry charge, it's absolutely brutal. As Seleucids I had to stop using them because battles were becoming too easy, but I'd recommend using them as Pontos.


Jesus, those bastards are so ridiculous for tearing up large masses of units so something else can come in and kill them while reforming. Its like playing GTA or something.

[paullus]

As Pontos, you can bring a nice heavy fight with your Galatians and Thracians and Greek units. They'll be getting some pretty cool units by the next build too, some of them are already skinned...

But as several have pointed out, spies infiltrating the cities of Asia Minor is probably the most important part in the early game: if you can keep their provinces rebelling, you can build up nicely before you have to fight them.