My only gripe with EB

[ZhaZ]

The speed of battles is simply too slow. It makes the battles more tactical, it is true, but things are getting too far. I end up experiencing much more similar battles in EB than in vanilla.

But mainly I lose atmosphere. Phalanxes looks very strange locked together without any units dying or anything going on. It takes forever to kill of the last units and looks silly when 2-3 units are surrounded by hundreds and still taking time to die.

Is it only me? I would love to have some optional version where units have less hp and battles are a tad faster.

[Gabeed]

Units having less hp won't help you: I'm just starting up this game, and finding that there are virtually no infantry units with multiple hit points (gaestatae seem to be an exception : D) Even bodyguards have only 1 hp, which I love because it makes them not invicible. The difference seems to be that units seem to have a lower attack and higher defense than before.

[Meothar]

That's why I play my battles on double speed ;)

I think the low movement speed is the biggest disadvantage of EB. It may be realistic, but it takes hours until armies finally meet on battlefield.

[Karielle]

I'm pretty sure only Gaesatae and the generals/family members themselves have more than one hp.. The exact reasons for the difference between EB and vanilla battles I'm not familiar with, but I find the former highly immersive and just plain enjoyable myself. What do you mean by losing atmosphere?

[Enguerrand de Sarnéac]

Then EB isn't the right mod I suppose...It's aimed for maximum realism, and even one hour for an actual battle is short compared to ancient battles.
Unit HP won't really help to speed things a little up; for instance your phalanxes aren't protected by high hitpoint values, but by their formation and armour... It's all balanced, believe me. You can't hope to win if you don't use tactics (especially for those bloody phalanxes of yours :smile:)

The EB team probably won't make another version for a more excited gameplay; there are mods enough to do that (can't say I speak for the team though) I suppose EB will stick with it's own, addicted audience :wacko:

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

It is entirely possible to shatter your enemy quickly, but it requires tactics, surround them, kill their general, rain flaming arrows on them.

As to the Phalanx, let me give you a piece of advice, use some of that time to appreciate that there are two groups of men locked in deadly combat on your computer screen.

[Watchman]

Even phalanx pushes can sometimes get pretty dramatic. Once very early into a campaign I was rather rudely surprised when the sole enemy Pantodapoi Phalangitai unit attacked in very deep formation and simply cleft apart my rather thinner-deployed sole equivalent pike unit, quickly causing severe casualties and requiring the intervention of several other units to prevent a complete disaster on that part of the line.
:yes:
Me like.

[Lysander13]

Yea realistic battles totally stink.....It's annoying having to actually use tactics and stuff to win battles...I'd much prefer to go back to the vanilla days when units routed on contact. :clown:

[The Celt]

Whats so bad about phalanxes? In my campaigns all the AI ever recruits is loads of skirmish units and some Theruphoroi(sp?). And on occasion I might see a pantopoi Phalangetai.(Which my cavalry make mincemeat out of.)So whats so hard about phalanx armies again? Or more importantly, WHERE are the phalanx armies? :dizzy2:

[vonsch]

See, I am of the opposite mind. I just fought a battle, odds slightly in my favor, but I wanted to preserve certain units that I wanted back on the road immediately from damage, and allow the local garrison to absorb what damage had to happen. This is very hard to do with vanilla or most mods. The pace is just too fast in battle, even on normal speed.

But in this case I could charge my HA I wanted unharmed around the flank to the rear to put their arrows to use, and allow my foot archers to accept the charge of the light spears that were mostly what the enemy had. Meanwhile, a couple bodyguard units pinned and surrounded the one young noble cav unit that was the threat to my HA units since they too have bows and speed.

No way I would count on a foot archer unit (of the first tier, basic sort) to hold against light spears for long enough to make this work. The one unit charged took about 20 losses. Then the rest of my cav killed their general and routed the other two spears (total 4 spears and 1 light nobles) and still had time to charge the rear of the spears pinned by the archers, routing them instantly too.


But the cav on cav (mostly) battle I fought last night was long and bloody and gripping. Cav does not melee well, so to do much damage you have to pull it out and recharge it over and over while pinning the target with something (in this case, more cav, I had them take turns). If you try to just let the cav forces hack at each other until conclusion, you may as well go out to dinner... or autoresolve. But if you exercise tactical command, you stay busy and interested. And you have more time to do so with EB because units are more durable.

Tactics actually work, and you have time to employ them. But the AI does too, so keep an eye on it. Once it a while it manages to pull off a nice flanking move if you just sit.

[mlc82]

I've always been under the impression that phalanx on phalanx battles weren't all that bloody until one side or the other broke and ran.

[Juvenal]

I have played other mods with movement adjustments, but EB seems to have achieved a sweet-spot in my opinion.

Fresh troops move at a reasonable rate, but light troops can rings around heavies, and cavalry are fast enough to achieve tactical surprise (in other words you have to anticipate cavalry flanking if you want any chance of intercepting with infantry).

Exhausted troops become dramatically slower. This adds a whole new tactical challenge over Vanilla, because you have to try to rest troops before they become exhausted.

Recovery from exhaustion is fast enough for you to contemplate using the troops again before the end of the battle, but slow enough to compromise any blitzing plans you may have had.

All in all, I think the current movement and exhaustion/recovery rates work very well. Of course I have experienced the frustration of exhausted heavy infantry running so slowly they leave a slime trail - but at least I know it was my own fault. :2thumbsup:

The only problem I have with all this is that auto-resolve is unbalanced, forcing me to play almost every battle. However, this is not the fault of the EB team as I believe RTW is hard-coded to use campaign difficulty for auto-resolve.

[mlc82]

:2thumbsup: Personally, I like the slow battles and especially the increased fatigue rate. One of my favorite EB tactics in a siege is to send a medium quality infantry (hastati if playing as Rome, etc) unit in first to wear down and tire out the defenders (usually some superior defensive unit like heavy hoplites or etc), then pull my attackers back and send something truly nasty like well rested heavy samnite infantry in to kill them all off.

[CaesarAugustus]

Just use double or triple speed. I only use normal speed when I am maneuvering my units and in that epic few seconds before the battle lines clash.

[Rilder]

I usually only use accelerated time when I'm marching across long distances, get low frames at max Time compression... plus I like to make sure everythings going well and am constantly manevering...

[NeoSpartan]

THe slower kill rates are the BEST THING EVER.:smash: :2thumbsup: :smash:

Now you can realislically see units slugging it out. In vanilla, you could loose 3/4 of ur units in under 15 seconds from a cavarly charge. And in Pike Vs. Pike, the weaker line would melt one layer at a time, and 30seconds later the unit routs. WTF!!!! :thumbsdown:

EB got it right on the $$. The only thing that bugs me is that the AI can't manage Fatige and almost always arrives Tired to battle.

Also, I can't turn off fatige in the Preferences folder, I change it and nothing happens. :help:

[antisocialmunky]

Well, yeah, phalanxes are boring when they fight each other unless you deploy your phalanxes to split the enemy or flank like a madman... Or have slingers. Try to be creative, EB allows alot of freedom for implementing tactics.

[Sheep]

I've always been under the impression that phalanx on phalanx battles weren't all that bloody until one side or the other broke and ran.

That's one of the reasons it was so popular, I guess. You could win a battle and still have some guys left to fight the next one.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I wish I could run battles on increased speed. Whenever I increase speed, not only does my frame rate go way down and I get lag, but the game will actually hang up for several seconds at a time.

I generally like the battle slowness, but agree and also hate it when you get the 'three guys surrounded by three thousand' who just won't die.

[Karielle]

Also, I can't turn off fatige in the Preferences folder, I change it and nothing happens. :help:

I think that has something to do with changing preferences mid-game.. If you start a new campaign you'll probably see the change. :yes:

Oh, and I only speed up battles when I'm done deploying and the enemy army still marching in from far away.. usually in the heat of battle I seem to have a thousand and one things not going the way I want them to go, so as a result I spend most of the battle more or less micromanaging. It's fun, for me at least. :2thumbsup:

[Intranetusa]

just set the game to 3x speed when all your units are engaged.

Sometimes, I like to hire heavy cavalry mercs (Thracian cavalry, Thassalian Macedonian cavalry, etc)...I once had an army that was 50% heavy cavalry...but I disbanded them cuz it made the battles too easy.
One heavy cavalry charge into an enemy's rear made them rout in 3 seconds.

[antisocialmunky]

I wish I could run battles on increased speed. Whenever I increase speed, not only does my frame rate go way down and I get lag, but the game will actually hang up for several seconds at a time.

I generally like the battle slowness, but agree and also hate it when you get the 'three guys surrounded by three thousand' who just won't die.

There is a way around it. Turn your camera away from everyone and then super speed.

[skuzzy]

3x requires to rotate the camera away from the thousands of dying polygons but to just double the speed I suggest you get a new computer, that's the best alternative!

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

There is a way around it. Turn your camera away from everyone and then super speed.
Yeah, that helps, but if there is a giant battle underway it is still slow, plus I want to make sure something stupid doesn't happen.

I do turn the camera away and do triple speed when I'm waiting the enemy out though. Like when they start a siege or bridge battle then decide they changed their minds and wait outside or on the other side of the river.

[RabbitDynamite]

Yes, phalanxes do have verrry slow kill rates. They aren't supposed to be the deadly mincing machines of Vanilla, their primary purpose is to pin the foe in place so something else can deliver the killing blow.*

Mind, if one two phallanx units fight with one having a height advantage, or one manages to "catch" another in formation phallanx in the flank, things can get bloody.

*Historically, wasn't the decline of the successor states partially because that they neglected their missile and cavalry arms, and the all phalanx armies were much less effective?

[Rilder]

Also, I can't turn off fatige in the Preferences folder, I change it and nothing happens. :help:

Wrong prefrences folder I suspect, go into were your Rome-Total war:EB folder is go into the EB subfolder in that and go into the prefrences folder and change that one so the path is like:(at least on mine)


I/Program Files/The Creative Assembly/Europa Barbarorum/EB/Prefrences/Prefrences.txt

Don't ask about the I for my main hard-drive letter. :laugh4:

[antisocialmunky]

Yes, phalanxes do have verrry slow kill rates. They aren't supposed to be the deadly mincing machines of Vanilla, their primary purpose is to pin the foe in place so something else can deliver the killing blow.*

Mind, if one two phallanx units fight with one having a height advantage, or one manages to "catch" another in formation phallanx in the flank, things can get bloody.

*Historically, wasn't the decline of the successor states partially because that they neglected their missile and cavalry arms, and the all phalanx armies were much less effective?

Yeah, more of less. One of the big reasons was the depletion of the cavalry arm by the Sucessor Wars.

[Watchman]

And them pesky horsemen take a while to train.

[Spoofa]

Hammer and Anvil, Good tactic, bad execution and lack of the correct manpower to carry it out effectively.

[Zim]

I like the slow battles, but I think you could shorten them by playing the Romans. A combo of their best troops and local mercs = short battles, if you flank
correctly.

EB battles are a bit slower, but not too bad. I got used to them fairly quickly.

[swell]

THe slower kill rates are the BEST THING EVER.:smash: :2thumbsup: :smash:

Now you can realislically see units slugging it out. In vanilla, you could loose 3/4 of ur units in under 15 seconds from a cavarly charge. And in Pike Vs. Pike, the weaker line would melt one layer at a time, and 30seconds later the unit routs. WTF!!!! :thumbsdown:

EB got it right on the $$. The only thing that bugs me is that the AI can't manage Fatige and almost always arrives Tired to battle.



About the kill rates I agree 100% !!!
The movement rates are still a bit too fast for me , but I can change that easily.

[Yun Dog]

THe slower kill rates are the BEST THING EVER.:smash: :2thumbsup: :smash:

Now you can realislically see units slugging it out. In vanilla, you could loose 3/4 of ur units in under 15 seconds from a cavarly charge. And in Pike Vs. Pike, the weaker line would melt one layer at a time, and 30seconds later the unit routs. WTF!!!! :thumbsdown:

EB got it right on the $$. The only thing that bugs me is that the AI can't manage Fatige and almost always arrives Tired to battle.

Also, I can't turn off fatige in the Preferences folder, I change it and nothing happens. :help:

AMEN brother

please dont change a thing ... I am loving that I can actually use tactics in battle again, having time to pull a flanking manouver, its my little piece of STW heaven re-incarnated

dude you want those fast, blob battles back... go back to vanilla and learn to LOVE IT

[ZhaZ]

I agree that Vanilla is too fast and unrealistic. But at the same time. As you see its not only me that has a drastically different view of watching the units "slugging it out".

The graphics are still based on RTW and not made for this speed. Thus you'll see the same animation over and over again. The spear animation forward and back. Noone dying. No new moves.

Anyway, thanks for discussion.

[Watchman]

That does sound like a fairly accurate description of ancient mass warfare. Too bad the game engine doesn't allow for the way the formations tended to keep butting heads for hours, pulling back to reform, catch their breath and gather their courage for another bout every now and then, until someone's resovle broke...

[Quilts]

Hi,

I reckon the infantry vs infantry combat in EB is pretty well modelled. If anything, casualties could be lessened and combined with a lowering of morale to prevent the 'high end' units sticking around when outnumbered and surrounded. The need to expediate the route with repeated cavalry charges to the rear is at times a little 'repetative'.

The one aspect that I have difficulty getting my head around is cavalry vs infantry. Let me explain. Because we look at the little figures on the screen charge in and fight we model their behaviour on this, and generally this only. It's hard not to when that's what the little men on the screen are doing.

But would real cavalry do this? Or would they charge, see the enemy didn't break, wheel away and hurl some spears/javelins/insults, before reforming and trying again. Perhaps a few of the braver individuals would remain close-by to try and tempt some of the infantry to advance and break their line sufficiently for other cavalry to exploit the gap.

It became a battle of wills rather than brawn, with few actual formation vs formation combats. If the infantry were confident they may advance in formation and force the cavalry to retreat. If the infantry lacked confidence they would huddle together and be assailed by the cavalry (as described above).

Eventually the actions of one (combined with surrounding events) would cause one side or the other to retire/route/flee.

But we can't model that in the game, can we? As a miniatures wargamer I 'learnt' to 'conceptualise' that just because 2 miniatures bases were in contact didn't necessarily mean they were exchanging blows. They could very well be, but perhaps they are just occupying each others 'attention'.

So despite the fact we see the men involved in a swirling melee (about all the engine can cope with) perhaps we can 'conceptualise' they are engaged in this battle of wills by-

1. Lowering charge values. Cavalry would rarely charge into contact against a formation as the game portrays. Gaps yes, but formations.....no.
2. Giving cavalry the 'frighten infantry' attribute.
3. Increasing cavalry defence values so they stay around longer. Part of that 'conceptualising' they are occupying the infantry's attention but wise enough to stay away from their spears.

This would mean that cavalry could 'flank' but it's their presence and boosted fear value vs infantry that may cause the enemy to route (with the lowered morale values I mentioned above) rather than charge, retreat, charge etc etc(which requires micro-management the AI is not capable of).

Anyways, need to take a breath. Just wanted to 'throw this out there' for comment.

Cheers,

Quilts

[swell]

1. Lowering charge values. Cavalry would rarely charge into contact against a formation as the game portrays. Gaps yes, but formations.....no.
2. Giving cavalry the 'frighten infantry' attribute.
3. Increasing cavalry defence values so they stay around longer. Part of that 'conceptualising' they are occupying the infantry's attention but wise enough to stay away from their spears.



Interesting, Quilts ! I'll try that. 'frighten infantry'

Another thing we can do is to improve cavalry visualization : by adding the "area" ability in the attributes of cavalry units.
Why ?

I remember the first time I saw the "area cavalry" in effect.
I was playing Greeks in DarthMod, and the AI besieged one of my cities. 2 cavalry units charged a gate guarded by 2 phalanx units in a "V" formation. (silly AI :smash: )
Then, I saw my men pushed back by the horses, waving strongly !!
It seemed they were collapsing !
I thought 'HUH do they rout or what ??' and screamed 'Go back in formation you idiots !!'
A few seconds later, they reformed, and the 2 cavalry were finally slaughtered, and routed.
In my hundred hours of play with RTW, it was the most amazing (and scariest) moment I lived :sweatdrop:

It removes the 'static' behaviour of cavalry. After all, horses should be able to 'move' infantry, even in melee.

I'm testing now the area effect on more units.
The battlefied should look like a dancing floor. :dizzy2: