British values lessons 'racist'

[lancelot]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/6535089.stm

My first thought on this... surprise that it took this long for someone to start waving the racism flag.



At the NUT conference, in Harrogate, Ms Ghale said Education Secretary Alan Johnson had described the "values we hold very dear in Britain" as "free speech, tolerance, respect for the rule of law".

"Well, in what way, I'd like to know, are these values that are not held by the peoples of other countries?" she said.

I loved this part...

1) yea, nearly every country has these values... :wall:

2) even if they did...its wrong to talk about it?



For some people, racism lay behind notions of what it meant to be British, she said.

So? Same could be true for any people anywhere...so lets not talk about something incase someone has a racist agenda behind it...right...



To demand that people conform to an imposed view of Britishness only fuels that racism," Ms Ghale said.

So by suggesting that x group of people have x values generally speaking equates a propagation of racism...ok :idea2:

What a wack job...and most conveniently this woman has forgot the one crucial element of racism... it has to make some comment on RACE!!!! :furious3:

I did not see once reference to race in this Britishness lessons.

This is the real problem today...someone makes a comment on 'values' 'culture' or whatever and calls 'racism.' I think people need to think really hard about what the word racism really means and stop crying foul whenever something comes along that doesnt fit their world view.

I have to ask...even if these 'lessons' consisted of x white people did this and then x white people did that, then they all lived happily whitely ever after etc etc...is this racism? Not in my book.

[Crazed Rabbit]

The acronym is certainly appropriate for her: NUT.

How are ideas about values racist? Unless, of course, one assumes as this lady does that certain races of people all have the same values that can't be changed. Who's the racist now?

But some find it easier to scream racism at anything and everything they dislike, I suppose.

CR

[Marshal Murat]

Racism requires race.

Anything else is just ethnocentrism.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I seriously doubt that kids are being taught 'how to be British', in any case. It's not like the teachers are going to be sitting the kids down, and going '"this is what it means to be British". No children are going to be complaining about "having Britishness after lunch." They're just citizenship lessons, most school systems have them.

I have no idea where she's getting racism from.

In any case, she supports France in the Euros but Brazil in the World Cup, making her an obvious glory supporter and thus beneath contempt. And she's a Spurs fan! Could I dislike this woman more?!

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

I think she is saying that these values should be described "human" (or universal, so to speak) values as opposed to "British" values and that the fact they are presented as British values is "racist".

[Hosakawa Tito]

Paging Al Sharpton.....

[Crazed Rabbit]

I think she is saying that these values should be described "human" (or universal, so to speak) values as opposed to "British" values and that the fact they are presented as British values is "racist".

'British' isn't a race.

CR

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I think she is saying that these values should be described "human" (or universal, so to speak) values as opposed to "British" values and that the fact they are presented as British values is "racist".

Since we have to assume labeling something this intangible as "British" means that they have intellectually "called dibs" and we all have to look for our values elsewhere. Guess we'll end up with "Idaho: Great Potatos" since all the other stuff will have been taken.:laugh4:

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

That's why I used quotation marks. And besides, racism nowadays does not necessarily mean prejudice against a race but also an ethnicity, a culture, a people.

[Suraknar]

That's why I used quotation marks. And besides, racism nowadays does not necessarily mean prejudice against a race but also an ethnicity, a culture, a people.

Yup yup, specially since Human Races dont exist..and were but a belief of in the 18th-19th century.

@Lancelot, welcome to multiculturalism :)

[Del Arroyo]

OK, yes it's retarded to call it "racism".

But consider this.

My LT one day was having a conversation with a visiting SgM. SgM was walking by and saw that he had a book called "The Arab Mind" sitting on his desk, and SgM proceeds to say that it's a stupid book.

When asked to give an example of the 'American Mind', LT says that we have respect for intellectual property and innovation, and this was why we had invented so many things. He said that these concepts simply didn't exist anywhere else in the world, and that was why almost no recent inventions had come from anywhere else. And it was all because us Americans think different.

So, as you can see, a patiotic education can lead to a bit of retardation. Though for the average citizen sitting on his couch watching HBO, there's little drawback.

[Azi Tohak]

At the NUT conference, in Harrogate, Ms Ghale said Education Secretary Alan Johnson had described the "values we hold very dear in Britain" as "free speech, tolerance, respect for the rule of law".

"Well, in what way, I'd like to know, are these values that are not held by the peoples of other countries?" she said.

I don't think any nation outside Europe and its former colonies values the first two. Christians are imprisoned, enslaved or killed in many nations. Doesn't seem very tolerant of Saudi Arabia (where I'm headed), Sudan, or China.

Azi

[Duke of Gloucester]

I don't think any nation outside Europe and its former colonies values the first two. Christians are imprisoned, enslaved or killed in many nations. Doesn't seem very tolerant of Saudi Arabia (where I'm headed), Sudan, or China.

Azi

This part of her speech is the bit that makes sense. "British Values" is an intellectually empty concept. You can't gain consensus among the British as to what these values are, unless, like Alan Johnson, you choose values that many, probably most, other countries would claim too. As an educator she has a moral duty to call the government on this. Unfortunately she has added her own intellectual sloppiness saying that the approach is "racist" rather than just saying it is silly. No surprise really. Teacher Unions and the NUT in particular never demonstrate the intellectual side of the profession.

[KukriKhan]

lancelot gets the Kukri Easter-bunny prize for today's cleverest turn-of-phrase, for:


even if these 'lessons' consisted of x white people did this and then x white people did that, then they all lived happily whitely ever after etc etc

That just cracked me up.

[Brenus]

According to what I read, she didn’t tell the British Values are Racists. She said that to present Freedom of Speech and others things as English is racist, and she would preferred to speak of kind of Common Values, something like that…
And after she spoke about the imposition of this values on others, which demonstrates her total irresponsibility.

[lancelot]

And besides, racism nowadays does not necessarily mean prejudice against a race but also an ethnicity, a culture, a people.

I think that is precisely the problem. And more importantly one of the biggest misnomers currently doing the rounds.

Any disparaging remarks on culture, religion etc etc get labelled racism. WRONG!

It may be insensitive/wrong/whatever to criticize, dislike, even hate; over these things but it still does not have anything to do with race.



lancelot gets the Kukri Easter-bunny prize for today's cleverest turn-of-phrase,

Cheers! lol. A clever turn-of-phraze...It was a long time coming :2thumbsup:

[English assassin]

And besides, racism nowadays does not necessarily mean prejudice against a race but also an ethnicity, a culture, a people.

Emphasis added.

And therein lies a big problem that this idiot is fueling. Because it IS possible to say some cultures are better than others. And some of the rubbish cultures may be more prevalent in people of a particular ethnicity, but that still doesn't mean the culture isn't rubbish.

Or does she think that, say, hip hop culture, and poppin a cap in yo ass before getting jiggy wid da hos, is somehow on a par with Ghandi, or even the protestant work ethic?

I've got prejudice against the NUT, oh yes.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think that by calling these values "British" all you're saying is they are deeply ingrained in our culture.

That doesn't make them exclusively British. The Protestant work ethic is also ingrained in our culture but it doesn't exist at all in the Mediteranian, on the other hand Japan has an even more etreme version.

To say race doesn't exist is as silly as saying culture doesn't exist. You just have to be concious that both are permeable. That doesn't mean you can't seperate one culture from another.

[Geoffrey S]

When asked to give an example of the 'American Mind', LT says that we have respect for intellectual property and innovation, and this was why we had invented so many things. He said that these concepts simply didn't exist anywhere else in the world, and that was why almost no recent inventions had come from anywhere else. And it was all because us Americans think different.

So, as you can see, a patiotic education can lead to a bit of retardation. Though for the average citizen sitting on his couch watching HBO, there's little drawback.
Slight off-topic, but the basic premise isn't incorrect. I don't know the book or the people involved, so I may be misrepresenting both, but the effect that protection of intellectual property had was probably a major reason for the rise of the West relative to the rest of the world. Institutional evolution played a huge part in the rise Europe, with laws guaranteeing basic rights protecting individuals from physical harm and random justice by lords eventually leading to laws and systems protecting innovators from economic risks and to a large extent plagiarism. This evolution of basic rights of the individual, making for a safer world and more inclination to try something new, was uniquely Western and quite possibly essential for the rise of the West in the late eighteenth and the nineteenth century. A fascinating (early and fundamental) book on the theory is The Rise of the Western World by Douglass North.

[Duke of Gloucester]

I think that by calling these values "British" all you're saying is they are deeply ingrained in our culture.

That doesn't make them exclusively British. The Protestant work ethic is also ingrained in our culture but it doesn't exist at all in the Mediteranian, on the other hand Japan has an even more etreme version.

To say race doesn't exist is as silly as saying culture doesn't exist. You just have to be concious that both are permeable. That doesn't mean you can't seperate one culture from another.

There are some people (call us touchy) who think that "Protestant work ethic" is just a snide way of saying Catholics are lazy. I think it is difficult to sustain the idea that this ethic is part of our culture. Many of us are not Protestant (or not even Christian) and not all of us work hard. I think this example is a good one to illustrate how difficult it is to talk of British Values. Many (like Philip) would see this as being part of our heritage. Others would feel excluded because they were of another faith (even lazy people see themselves as hard-working so this part won't be an issue.)

[Incongruous]

I thought that about seventy percent of people did relate to Christ in some way?

[English assassin]

There are some people (call us touchy) who think that "Protestant work ethic" is just a snide way of saying Catholics are lazy. I think it is difficult to sustain the idea that this ethic is part of our culture. Many of us are not Protestant (or not even Christian) and not all of us work hard. I think this example is a good one to illustrate how difficult it is to talk of British Values. Many (like Philip) would see this as being part of our heritage. Others would feel excluded because they were of another faith (even lazy people see themselves as hard-working so this part won't be an issue.)

As the person who introduced the term into the thread, and a lapsed catholic myself, may I call you touchy? :beam:

I've never imagined that the "protestant" in "protestant work ethic" indicated that the worker was an Anglican (if they are protestants at all, which I am never quite sure about), any more than referring to Indian food means food which is to be eaten only by persons of Indian heritage.

[Geoffrey S]

There are some people (call us touchy) who think that "Protestant work ethic" is just a snide way of saying Catholics are lazy. I think it is difficult to sustain the idea that this ethic is part of our culture. Many of us are not Protestant (or not even Christian) and not all of us work hard. I think this example is a good one to illustrate how difficult it is to talk of British Values. Many (like Philip) would see this as being part of our heritage. Others would feel excluded because they were of another faith (even lazy people see themselves as hard-working so this part won't be an issue.)
The phrase doesn't mean Protestants work harder than other groups; rather it indicates that Protestants in the past focused their attention on different aspects, and in this context particularly on making profits, than Catholics did traditionally, partly due to differences between religions regarding predestination. It is more complicated than that, but it definitely does not mean or imply that Catholics or other non-Protestants are lazy.

[Ja'chyra]

"Well, in what way, I'd like to know, are these values that are not held by the peoples of other countries?" she said.

Free speech (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/2233229.stm) More free speech (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/15/nislam15.xml)

Tolerance (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4295111.stm) More tolerance (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3500728.stm)

Rule of Law (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/3661134.stm) Rule of Law, Again (http://www.greenpeace.org.uk/forests/forests.cfm?ucidparam=20060928153937)

Maybe if these things were taught more emphatically by both schools and some parents the UK would be a better place.

[Del Arroyo]

Slight off-topic, but the basic premise isn't incorrect. I don't know the book or the people involved, so I may be misrepresenting both, but the effect that protection of intellectual property had was probably a major reason for the rise of the West relative to the rest of the world. Institutional evolution played a huge part in the rise Europe, with laws guaranteeing basic rights protecting individuals from physical harm and random justice by lords eventually leading to laws and systems protecting innovators from economic risks and to a large extent plagiarism. This evolution of basic rights of the individual, making for a safer world and more inclination to try something new, was uniquely Western and quite possibly essential for the rise of the West in the late eighteenth and the nineteenth century. A fascinating (early and fundamental) book on the theory is The Rise of the Western World by Douglass North.

Sure, but it still has nothing to to with the 'American mind', and as you have so kindly pointed out, it's not even American. Intellectual property rights are an external condition, not a mindset. If it is part of our 'mind', i.e. a psychological factor, then it logically follows that any other people exposed to the same conditions would not behave in a similar manner. I simply do not believe this to be the case, and I believe there is ample evidence to refute it.