Why should 2H/Polearms be different in M2:TW ?

[Shahed]

Hi All !

This is not a history discussion, it is a game discussion.

In MTW/VI 2.01 (or whatever the last version was):


Polearms such as JHI, Bills, CK, etc were offensive anti-cavalry units. They did their job VERY well and could be relied upon to do so.
Spears were a defensive unit which could perform very well against cavalry and hold their own for a short period of time against comparable infantry.


In M2:TW (PureFixer 1.13 and presumably official 1.20):


Polearms are now anti S&S (Sword & Shield). They perform very well against elite S&S infantry.
They are utterly destroyed by cavalry.
They do well against infantry as well.


My questions to you and to CA:

1. Why this change from anti-cav to anti-S&S/anti-inf ?
2. What has filled the gap, created by this change, for an offensive anti-cav unit ?

Salute !

[Whacker]

My thoughts are that polearms should perform the same as in MTW; they were, as you pointed out, historically very effective against mounted units.

:balloon2:

PS: EEENFEEEDEL!!!! :grin:

[Carl]

Okay, some guesses.


1. Why this change from anti-cav to anti-S&S/anti-inf ?

It's simply down to the way 2-Handers have been set up. To represent their weapon power they have been given AP and a high attack. That is naturally going to be very dangerous to S&S units as they rely on their high defense quite heavily.

Since they are now able to beat S&S units, (and thus by definition all other non-pike/better 2-hander units), they need a weakness. This weakness was a low defense. Since surviving a Formed Cav charge is almost totally defense reliant in my experience this makes them very vulnerable to Cav. However I suspect the original reason for this reduction was to make the unit vulnerable to missiles.

I also suspect the points raised regarding your second question, and thus the near impossibility of producing an offensive anti-Cav unit had an effect. their was no point just creating yet another Spear unit out of them.


2. What has filled the gap, created by this change, for an offensive anti-Cav unit ?

Other Better Cav.

Thats it.

Simply put being on the move reduces your Cav charge resistance and the only Cav specific defense bonuses come from the Spear Attribute, and that only works if your stood still.

You could theoretically give a unit a very high defense to achieve resistance to Cav charges. But based on a number of factors that have shown up in various tests I've done you would need a value of about 30 total defense to resist the best Cav. That however is when stationery, when moving it would need to be higher. In addition the max effect on defense that any one value, (Armour, Defense Skill, and Shields being the factors) can have is 30 defense. hat means the 40-50 defense required would need at least 10+ points in the Armour which would make the unit horrifically missile resistant. Lastly, such a high defense score, even if coupled with a low attack values, would almost certainly allow them to beat every other infantry unit just by outlasting them.

You also couldn't use higher infantry mass as that would probably result in the unit in question being able to do formed charges of it's own against other infantry.

In simple terms with the formed charge mechanics as they are you cannot produce an offensive anti-Cav infantry unit.

[Agent Smith]

Hi All !

This is not a history discussion, it is a game discussion.

In MTW/VI 2.01 (or whatever the last version was):


Polearms such as JHI, Bills, CK, etc were offensive anti-cavalry units. They did their job VERY well and could be relied upon to do so.
Spears were a defensive unit which could perform very well against cavalry and hold their own for a short period of time against comparable infantry.


In M2:TW (PureFixer 1.13 and presumably official 1.20):


Polearms are now anti S&S (Sword & Shield). They perform very well against elite S&S infantry.
They are utterly destroyed by cavalry.
They do well against infantry as well.


My questions to you and to CA:

1. Why this change from anti-cav to anti-S&S/anti-inf ?
2. What has filled the gap, created by this change, for an offensive anti-cav unit ?

Salute !

Well, it's hard to talk about it without going all historical :sweatdrop:

I think you'll find that polearms were in fact dual use. Most had an armor piercing/cavalry dismounting weapon along with a spear point. However, I think the problem is that polearm units should never have been used as an offensive anti-cav unit, and it was a lack of making a unit "dual use" in the early game that led them to choose what they did. That being said, I don't think you'll find a charging polearm unit swinging at a charging horse to be very effective. The polearm was effective to defend against a charge as a spear and to attack the horseman in a melee (hence why, I believe, billmen can form a spearwall, etc.). So, polearms could be used offesnively against enemy infantry with greater ease.

I think they filled the gap with, as silly as it sounds, heavy cavalry. Just about every faction has their own heavy cavalry. So, you either have to counter cav with cav, which makes sense, or with more overwhelming amounts of spear units to survive the charge and force a melee.

[Shahed]

Well lots to say here but... I have to say this, before this topic gets derailed.

In M2TW you can knock down stone walls with ballistae about 2 meters long. Is that historical, or realistic. Nope.

It's not about history or realism. This game is neither of the two. That is my established view. I'm willing to debate or discuss that with anyone in another topic.

I started this topic to discuss gameplay, reasonable balanced, enjoyable gameplay. And for the comments on that I'm grateful because I did'nt actually see why it's changed in M2:TW. Back later.

[rrdew]

Actually it seems (based on personal observation, not testing) that polearms, with the 2H fix, are effective against calvery if you can get them into melee, without taking a charge. Engage the cavery with spears and then rush in your 2 Handers.

[BigTex]

Polearms such as JHI, Bills, CK, etc were offensive anti-cavalry units. They did their job VERY well and could be relied upon to do so.

Their not an offensive spear unit. Their a heavy shock infantry that can also do well midly well against stationary cavalry. Their meant to go in and destroy stuff, their low defensive values means their staying power is minimal. They may be able to hack through a group of well armed S&S but they wont be able to even stand if their attacked by even a spear unit after that.

[andrewt]

Polearms weren't effective in stopping charges in MT:W either. They have bonuses of 3/1 vs. cavalry as opposed to the 1/4 of spear and 2/6 of pikes. Their defense wasn't that great, either, so they would knock out quite a few cavalry if charged but they would get massive losses. In melee, however, especially if attacking the cavalry's flank, they would annihilate cavalry quickly. It's a good balance as you would still need spear units or anything to occupy the cavalry units for these guys to kill them.

[Puzz3D]

This is not a history discussion, it is a game discussion.

In MTW/VI 2.01 (or whatever the last version was):


Polearms such as JHI, Bills, CK, etc were offensive anti-cavalry units. They did their job VERY well and could be relied upon to do so.
Spears were a defensive unit which could perform very well against cavalry and hold their own for a short period of time against comparable infantry.

It was a questionable design decision to make spears almost entirely defensive vs cav in MTW/VI by biasing their anti-cav bonus towards defense. The anti-cav bonus of spears in STW is evenly distributed between attack and defense, and this works fine because the spears can actually kill the cav within a reasonable amount of time. In MTW/VI, the spears would fight a long time and kill almost no cav which could then just pull out and attack somewhere else. The polearms were more offensive especially with the armor piercing bonus which increases attack, but again the anti-cav bonus probably should have been evenly distributed between attack and defense and not biased as it was towards attack. With an even distribution of the bonus, the polearms would have resisted cav charge better which their weapon type should have allowed.



In M2:TW (PureFixer 1.13 and presumably official 1.20):


Polearms are now anti S&S (Sword & Shield). They perform very well against elite S&S infantry.
They are utterly destroyed by cavalry.
They do well against infantry as well.

The swiss halbardiers in MTW 1 are actually quite good vs swords, and the dismounted chivalric knights are excellent vs swords. Units like these should be able to stop a cav charge.



My questions to you and to CA:

1. Why this change from anti-cav to anti-S&S/anti-inf ?
2. What has filled the gap, created by this change, for an offensive anti-cav unit ?
The answer to 1. might be that CA wants cav to dominate the gameplay.
The answer to 2. is that spears should fill the gap, but they might not if the answer to 1 is true.

Cav has mobility, and that's a big advantage over infantry in open field battles. That gives cav the initiative. On top of that, the spears now have to be completely immobile to stop cav which further enhances the advantage of the cav's mobility. Stationary spears pose no threat to cav. Does the AI leave it's spears stationary or is it targeting cav with them the way it does in STW where moving spears are dangerous to cav?

[Shahed]

Brilliant. Points taken.

[HoreTore]

Seriously, try the Janissary Heavy Infantry against a cavalry unit. I can bet you've never seen cavalry go down so quickly. They can't take the charge though, you'll need a front line of spears, and then charge the JHI through when the cavalry has charged.

[Miracle]

Spearwall polearms can defeat cavalry (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=81434) in very much the way you described.

They can do so while moving and will not get completely destroyed if charged from the front. The key is their long_pike attribute and superior animations, which allow them to stop cavalry dead in their tracks, poke them to death, and hack away at the survivors.

The big downsides to spearwall polearms post-1.2 are their abysmally low stats and speed. Halberd militia start with just 5 attack and 1 defense. French Voulgiers have just 7 attack. The high-end Obudshaers get only 9 attack. Their marching speed is about as slow as artillery's.

That means you must maneuver them very carefully in order to best utilize their abilities, and engage them against only medium-strength cavalry.

Hopefully in 1.3 spearwall polearms will get stat and speed boosts which will make them a much more useful offensive anti-cavalry unit.

[Gith]

Isn't it more accurate that polearm infantry usually beat S&S units anyway? I thought that as the armor in Europe advanced to provide adequate protection without a shield, knights went to fighting with polearms on foot because of the extra versatility and better armor penetration? If anyone knows for sure let me know, this is just what I had heard at one point

[knoddy]

1. Who knows why they do these crazy things. y did they tell us we would be able to dismount before battles and not put it in, y did they take out the option to choose your own heir. i could go on and on but the simple answer is who knows y ca/sega choose to go this way. but they did and now we adapt.

2. nothing really. the idea as far as i can tell from playing and the like is to bog cav down, then thrown in any infantry. in my experience nothing can stop a well timed, well executed charge, but once the charge is over, almost anything can kill cav. Solution - get a few units of suicidal pesants charge them into the cav, soak the charge and run ur dk in from the sides :P


Cheers Knoddy

[kawligia]

England can also fills the gaps with AP Longbowmen that can deploy stakes to prevent a cavalry charge when defending.

When the cavalry get close after being showered with arrows, they have to slow down to go through or around the stakes, at which point the Billmen can eat them up.

[KyodaiSteeleye]

Ok, not getting into historical debates:

My recollection of MTW was that you didn't want your polearms near a cavalry charge - I distinctly remember attacking a unit of routing light cavalry with dismounted chiv knights and my knights getting run over- ok, not a direct example of a normal cavalry charge, but I do remember that in MP, I always had my heavy polearms on the wings behind my main infantry line so they could flank already engaged cav/inf units and do them in - i always tried to keep them away from direct first contact.

[_Tristan_]

It may also have been a design of CA to give some change in the gameplay...

Let me explain...

Fighting open field battles, it seems logical that a charge of cavalry should bowl over everything that stands in its way until impact then it would e subject to flanking or sword fighting, not to its benefit...

On the other part, in siege battles, infantry rules and makes cavalry useless (and mortally so)...

Thus it allows two different styles of gameplay.

Lastly, thinking on it, it sounds logical to me that no unit except those with pikes or at least spears should withstand a formed cavalry charge.

[Caliburn]

In the good ol' MTW You can make a decent defensive formation out of just the basic Halberdiers, as they had a very high defence value (around 6) and could take cavalry charges pretty well, as well as kill a few horses while at it by counter-charging their charge. And as they had the AP ability, they were much better overall killers than spearmen, so they could damage old school spear walls consisting of Chivalric sergeants by just engaging in melee.

They weren't very effective killers compared to Billmen, the Swiss Halberdiers or the Jannissaries, but non-AP missiles just glanced off of them and it took quite a lot to take them down.

So the very basic Halberdiers were more of a defensive unit (slow, low attack score even with the AP bonus against knights) in my books anyway, while the other types were assault-oriented, and not easily available for more than a few factions.

[Brutal DLX]

Well, I think you can't compare MTW VI to MTW2, mainly because the cav in VI never had such a strong charge (apart from the swipe exploit in early versions). This changes everything, the player attacking with his cav does not have to come up with smart maneuvering to position his cavalry, he can do a frontal charge and come through with it.
The defending player must find new ways to break or avoid that charge, be that by using terrain or cheap units to throw in against the charging cav, or to counter a cav charge with one of his own. The polearms, even if prepared, cannot resist even a frontal charge by cav, we could just employ them in such fashion in VI because taking such a head-on charge wasn't so costly to your unit.
What the polearms in MTW2 should be able to do is, as others already mentioned, holding their own once the melee starts and having a reasonable chance to pierce the knight's armour and drag them off their horses. If the unit size of polearms would be larger though, they might have a chance of defeating the cav even after taking a charge. Alas, it isn't and the point is moot.
Basically, I do like the greater charge impacts, however, they should not apply to light cav as they seem to do now. Polearms like Billmen and Halberdiers are offensive troops, i.e. to be used to do most of the killing, preferrably by flanking moves while, say, armoured sarges hold the enemy in place.

[Garnier]

I agree with the OP. Halberds in MTW1 were good against armoured infantry and against cavalry. Just like in real life. I hate how they work in M2TW. But I guess it has to do with how the animations work. It would be hard to make a realistic looking "drag the horseman to the ground" animation, which is what halberds should be doing.

[gardibolt]

It would be hard to make a realistic looking "drag the horseman to the ground" animation, which is what halberds should be doing.

Oh, but that would look so cool. :2thumbsup:

[edyzmedieval]

I find it shockingly disturbing that halberds peform excellent against infantry. A unit of 54 Halberd Miltia, 1 experience, VH/VH campaign completely rollered over a unit of Spear Miltia, and lost only 7 men!!! ~:eek:

[Whacker]

I find it shockingly disturbing that halberds peform excellent against infantry. A unit of 54 Halberd Miltia, 1 experience, VH/VH campaign completely rollered over a unit of Spear Miltia, and lost only 7 men!!! ~:eek:

Why, that makes perfect sense. Halberds are generally shorter, offensive oriented, and more versatile than spears, which are by nature more defensive.

[edyzmedieval]

80 vs 54.
no experience vs 1 experience
Spear+Shield vs Halberd

Kill 75 and lose only 7? What's this? Halberda Invicta?

[Whacker]

80 vs 54.
no experience vs 1 experience
Spear+Shield vs Halberd

Kill 75 and lose only 7? What's this? Halberda Invicta?

Oh I dunno, far better offensive weapon for melee against infantry, vs. poor generic short defensive weapon?

Spearmen were just having a bad day maybe?

:shrug:

[Aquitaine]

Hardly a scientific test, but I had two units of Tercio Pikemen attack (head on, not flanking) an enemy king in a castle square (50 General's Bodyguard). They were in 'spearwall' formation but they were also on the attack and moving, and the bodyguard wasn't moving.

The general's bodyguard got torn to shreds and I lost about 5 pikemen. I've never seen a high-hp unit go down so quickly.

[Husar]

Seriously, try the Janissary Heavy Infantry against a cavalry unit. I can bet you've never seen cavalry go down so quickly. They can't take the charge though, you'll need a front line of spears, and then charge the JHI through when the cavalry has charged.
When the Forlorn Hope had 2 hitpoints, I sent a unit of them against a general and he didn't even survive for two seconds, closely followed by the rest of his bodyguards.:skull:
Was in a city though, where charges hardly matter.

[Whacker]

When the Forlorn Hope had 2 hitpoints, I sent a unit of them against a general and he didn't even survive for two seconds, closely followed by the rest of his bodyguards.:skull:
Was in a city though, where charges hardly matter.

Indeed, pretty much any type of cav, generals included, get butched handily inside cities, even by absolute bottom of the barrel infantry units. This is one of the reasons that the lack of dismounting thoroughly annoys me so much.

[Yesugey]

They didn't lower any features of Polearms and Two handeds, they are just fine the way they are.

Problem is, they improved "Cavalry Charge" ability so high. They probably thought that cavalry charge was ruling the medieval ages. That's true. But now, even the lightest cavalry with jousting ability crushes the bestest polearm infantry or swordsmen, only by charging. Hell, they crush most of the spearmen too. Since no one have pikemen in early and mid game, there is no solution against mass cavalry charge.

(That was not the case in Rome TW. Most of the factions have pikemen, and even they dont, high quality infantry resists the light cavalry charge perfectly.)

But in the normal engagement, two handeds and polearms thorn the cavalry to pieces just like in the old days. Problem is, if more than half of the unit is dead after the first charge, they most likely can't do anything, or rout.