catapracht question

[anubis88]

First i just wanna say that i was amazed when i started to play EB... I must say it's much better than RTR wich i thought god-like before i've seen EB..

So here's the question... I'm playing with Seleucia and i wan't to know if i can get the catapratchs and what is the trigger for them? i'm at war with Parthia that is sendning armys of 6 units of their elite catapracht an on VH/VH im gettin quite literally my ass kicked! That's why I would like to know if i can get any cavalry that can stop them.

Thanx in advance

P.S. Where can i recruit elephants? must i conquer the indian settlements?

[Cataphract_Of_The_City]

I believe you need to lose a battle against an army that has cataphracts. Your general will probably get a trait like "intrigued by cataphracts" and this will trigger the cataphract reform.

[Ludens]

The cataphract reform hasn't been implemented yet, IIRC. Cataphracts will become available when the vanilla Marian reform is triggered.

I am not sure of the current build, but in EB 0.74 Indian elephants were available in the cities to the east and the south of Baktra, and also in the capital of Epeiros; African forest elephants can be recruited to the west of Carthage and north of the Sahara; and both types of African elephant can be recruited in the three cities south of Egypt.

[anubis88]

so there is no way for me to gain acces to cataprachts? like editing a file or something:help:

[Watchman]

Just wait until the Cata reforms kick in. Kinda noticeable, since every city that can recruit them (I guess) suddenly has a "building" that quite prominently reads "Kataphrakt Reforms" or something to that effect.

[anubis88]

so the reform does work? Becouse i've read in the faq that it doesn't:idea2:

[Ower]

i'm at war with Parthia that is sendning armys of 6 units of their elite catapracht an on VH/VH im gettin quite literally my ass kicked!

well the reasom why you're getting your ass kicked, is the VH battle difficulty, wich gives each AI unit when facing you +7 (or so) to attack and deffence. eaven a ordinary heavy cavalery could shreed your elit quit strong before faling.

[The Errant]

P.S. Where can i recruit elephants? must i conquer the indian settlements?

Elephants can be recruited in Taksashila, Opiana and Pura in India. Axum, Meroe and Ptolemais-Theron in East Africa and atleast Kirtsan and Ippone in North Africa.

Only the Epirotes can train elephants in Ambrakia.

Here is a map to help you along: https://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ebmap072plainsmall6dw.gif

[Ludens]

Only the Epirotes can train elephants in Ambrakia.

Here is a map to help you along: https://img450.imageshack.us/my.php?image=ebmap072plainsmall6dw.gif
Thanks. Incidentally, that map is the old 0.72 map. You can find a map for 0.8 here (https://www.europabarbarorum.com/i/eb_map_080_plain.gif).

[anubis88]

i know why im getting my ass kicked an i LOVE IT!!!
But i still haven't got a clear answer about the reform and if it does work!

[Enguerrand de Sarnéac]

It's a bit off topic, but anyway...
Pyrrhos was quite famous for his elephants of course; and the Eastern factions (Seleukeia, Baktria) could recruit elephants in certain provinces, and the way of thinking of the Team probably was that Pyrrhos traded his elephants with eastern Diadochi (most probably Arche Seleukeia or the Ptolemaioi). In the same text (by Plutarchus; the main literary source about Pyrrhos) is mentioned that Antigonos of Makedonia also had elephants.


The Gauls who formed the rearguard of Antigonus, a numerous body, made a sturdy resistance; but after a fierce battle most these were cut to pieces, while those who had charge of the elephants were hemmed in and surrendered themselves and all their animals.

I suppose quite a lot of Diadochi had elephants (provided they were nice allies) I even recall from the EB description that elephants were 'commonly' traded between them (if I'm not mistaken).
Perhaps some selected Diadochi (I'm sure there is other literary evidence of elephants) should have the possibility of recruiting elephants in their capital, to symbolize this trade. Better even would be that one only could recruit the beasts if one has the right alliances (through traiting or builing scripting for instance)

Sorry for the comment on this issue, but what I noted seemed like a little awkward. Perhaps I'm even wrong and Makedonia can already recruit elephants :wacko:
Or am I misinterpreting the text and it was poor Pyrrhos's elephants being captured?

[The Errant]

Sorry for the comment on this issue, but what I noted seemed like a little awkward. Perhaps I'm even wrong and Makedonia can already recruit elephants :wacko:
Or am I misinterpreting the text and it was poor Pyrrhos's elephants being captured?

No your not wrong. Only the Epirote faction can train elephants in Ambrakia at their highest level MIC. Atleast that's the way it was in 0.8 and I'm pretty sure the team hasen't changed it.

The Seleucids have no immediate access to them either. They and the Baktrians have to conquer one of the Indian provinces to get them. Then upgrade their MICs in those provinces accordingly.

The Carthies have a province with elephants at the start of the game but not the MIC level required to train them. Same goes I think for the Ptolies. I know they can train elephants in Ptolemais-Theron but if they have a sufficiently advanced MIC in place at the start of the game I don't know.

The Diadochi were fond of them. But the first to use them in a large scale was Seleucos. And he had to fight a war and give his daughters hand in marriage to an Indian ruler to get them. The Ptolemies got cut off from the Indian supply when they became enemies of the Seleucids so they had to find an alternative supply. Hence Africa.

Historically those factions had access to them. Pyrrhos was known to have brought the Elephants to Epeiros and systematically spent years and lots of money to try to transplant them successfully so he could have a native supply of the beasts that wasn't dependent on unreliable allies to provide them.

I think that is the reason the elephants are limited. Unless you have a "natural" source of the things, in a world with shifting alliances whatever elephants you get from allies are not a permanent part of your armies makeup. Therefore it's easier and more realistic to make successor factions with access to them. And those without. Besides the elephants are part of what gives the Epirotes flavor. If the Maks had them, the Epirotes might just be a cheap copy of the Great Macedonia. This way the Epirotes are unique of the European powers to use such a monstrosity in battle without the need to conquer some distant provinces to get them.

I suppose you could make them extremely rare mercs in the successor regions, but somehow it dosen't sound right to me. They cost a ton to maintain so they couldn't just quit the service of one army and spend years or even months between jobs. Elephants require a massive military organisation and with a sufficiently large economic base to support them. That excludes nations that have both the money, infrastructure and organisation to keep such resources around in the event they will be needed in an unspecified possible future war.

[Watchman]

But i still haven't got a clear answer about the reform and if it does work!The reform as planned does not work yet, so there's a placeholder tied to the vanilla Marian reform script thingy. Beats me how exactly that now gets triggered in EB, but usually the reform indicator "buildings" seem to pop up in AS and Baktrian cities within the first couple of decades. They should be able to recruit Kataphraktoi Hellenikoi after that, with high enough MICs of course.

Far as I know, anyway.

[anubis88]

the catapracht reform markers are there from the begining:no:
is there any way around the reform to use catapracht? im reaching 220 bc... it's the time they really used them

[Watchman]

Then you're down to waiting for the Marian trigger to get met, I guess.

Didn't the Seleucids only start using catas after their campaign against the Pahlava around the turn of the century, though ? Made something of an impression apparently, which is what the proper reform planned is going to simulate.

[Thaatu]

There will be a second cataphract reform marker once the marian reforms trigger, I believe. I know I have them as Seleukids, although a little too early I think (~240BC).

About the elephants, I find it weird that considering Antiochus had 'phants when he fought the Galatians, to recreate that at the moment would be to quickly conquer an Indian province, tech it up until you can train elephants and then transport them to the army. All this, with your economy going down the toilet after recruiting the elephants. Once the Seleukids get their official starting armies in upcoming versions, I assume Indian elephants will be part of those. I just hope their economy gets a boost, because in the beginning of the game they are not too well off, and that's without the upkeep costs of a field army. If they don't get a boost, then it's bye bye to the elephants on turn one.

[The Errant]

There will be a second cataphract reform marker once the marian reforms trigger, I believe. I know I have them as Seleukids, although a little too early I think (~240BC).

About the elephants, I find it weird that considering Antiochus had 'phants when he fought the Galatians, to recreate that at the moment would be to quickly conquer an Indian province, tech it up until you can train elephants and then transport them to the army. All this, with your economy going down the toilet after recruiting the elephants. Once the Seleukids get their official starting armies in upcoming versions, I assume Indian elephants will be part of those. I just hope their economy gets a boost, because in the beginning of the game they are not too well off, and that's without the upkeep costs of a field army. If they don't get a boost, then it's bye bye to the elephants on turn one.

You want to give more money to the Seleukids? Why in gods name would anyone want to do that? They are already the # 1 steamrolling faction in the game. Any changes for a more powerful Seleukid economy will make the faction, when controlled by the AI atleast, unstoppable.

I realize the human player might have problems with their cash flow playing as the Seleukids but any changes to make them more powerful will have effects on the AI playing it aswell.

Elephants are a luxury I can rarely afford, even when I've already built the MIC necessary to train them. Among the Epirotes and Kart-Hadastim who have them in their starting armies, they are used for a couple of early conquest and then disbanded (unless said factions are controlled by the AI, in which case the AI ususlly gets them killed early). Why should the Seleukids be any different.

[Southern Hunter]

The Seleucids have no immediate access to them either. They and the Baktrians have to conquer one of the Indian provinces to get them. Then upgrade their MICs in those provinces accordingly.


Baktrians can train them in Baktra (with a MIC upgrade)

[The Errant]

Baktrians can train them in Baktra (with a MIC upgrade)

:oops: Sorry. My Bad!

[anubis88]

So you can't trigger the marian reforms manually? I thought that that was possible in vanilla

[Thaatu]

You want to give more money to the Seleukids? Why in gods name would anyone want to do that? They are already the # 1 steamrolling faction in the game. Any changes for a more powerful Seleukid economy will make the faction, when controlled by the AI atleast, unstoppable.

I realize the human player might have problems with their cash flow playing as the Seleukids but any changes to make them more powerful will have effects on the AI playing it aswell.

Elephants are a luxury I can rarely afford, even when I've already built the MIC necessary to train them. Among the Epirotes and Kart-Hadastim who have them in their starting armies, they are used for a couple of early conquest and then disbanded (unless said factions are controlled by the AI, in which case the AI ususlly gets them killed early). Why should the Seleukids be any different.
The VH AI Seleukids have more money than they can spend, literally, thus giving them more money wouldn't change a thing. The Seleukids have only garrison troops in the beginning of the campaign with no standing army and their economy is not doing particulary well. Giving them an army without elephants would increase their army upkeep by, let's say, 3000 mnai putting their budget officially in the red. And the Seleukids probably had some forces to control the eastern provinces too...

Let's just say, I'm not too fond of the Aedui -8000 mnai/turn economy. I mean, how could such a faction support itself? I tried playing as them, but I quit because I didn't want to create an Aedui empire just to balance the budget. As Parthia I had to disband all but two horse archer units to make a profit, as I wanted to play as accurately as I could. That resulted in me destroying Seleukid levy armies with nothing but my FMs.

I'm somewhat critisising the economy system, but I know majority like it so I'll retire...

[Axelus]

You want to give more money to the Seleukids? Why in gods name would anyone want to do that? They are already the # 1 steamrolling faction in the game. Any changes for a more powerful Seleukid economy will make the faction, when controlled by the AI atleast, unstoppable.


In two of my campaigns the Selukids are getting wiped out by the Saebean faction and Bactria. I've played them on H/H though...



Let's just say, I'm not too fond of the Aedui -8000 mnai/turn economy. I mean, how could such a faction support itself? I tried playing as them, but I quit because I didn't want to create an Aedui empire just to balance the budget. As Parthia I had to disband all but two horse archer units to make a profit, as I wanted to play as accurately as I could. That resulted in me destroying Seleukid levy armies with nothing but my FMs.

I'm somewhat critisising the economy system, but I know majority like it so I'll retire...

I don't like it either really. I would like to se improvements of the economical system in future EB mods, but perhaps that's not possible.
It is way to easy to get rich in RTW, and it is also based on complete coining and money economy. It would be nice to se if other resources could play in. When you are playing as Pahvlava and have a descent army of horse-archers rampaging other nations, were they payed in coins or money? Such nations could not afford such transfers or payments, and that works in EB in away, because historically rich nations such as Italy, also have the best trading income. But couldn't there be some other ways for barbaric and nomadic nations to get armies? Perhaps could generals with armies "on the move" get cheaper army-uppkeep to represent the army being self-dependant by pillage and stuff? Say that a good nomadic general is one that by certain ancillaries could make big armies more cheaper, because of his skills as a administrator and logistics...

[The Errant]

In two of my campaigns the Selukids are getting wiped out by the Saebean faction and Bactria. I've played them on H/H though...



I don't like it either really. I would like to se improvements of the economical system in future EB mods, but perhaps that's not possible.
It is way to easy to get rich in RTW, and it is also based on complete coining and money economy. It would be nice to se if other resources could play in. When you are playing as Pahvlava and have a descent army of horse-archers rampaging other nations, were they payed in coins or money? Such nations could not afford such transfers or payments, and that works in EB in away, because historically rich nations such as Italy, also have the best trading income. But couldn't there be some other ways for barbaric and nomadic nations to get armies? Perhaps could generals with armies "on the move" get cheaper army-uppkeep to represent the army being self-dependant by pillage and stuff? Say that a good nomadic general is one that by certain ancillaries could make big armies more cheaper, because of his skills as a administrator and logistics...

In one of my tests I Got the Sabyn to turn a profit from day one, even with their full standing army. It involved giving them a Mining Center from the beginning of the game at their capital and using the first turn to build the most basic economic upgrades.

I imagine the principle is the same for everybody. A preset infrastucture with advanced ports and mines will propably turn your cashflow into positive from day one. It takes away part of the gameplay experience though.

The only other way I can think of is to modify recruitment costs and upkeep in the EDU. And if you do it for some you have to do it for all. Otherwise you end up with serious balance issues for the units.

[Thaatu]

By the way, I did notice that Parthia had the lower level mining building in their capital, but it didn't turn any profit according to the economic scroll. I imagine that's a bug which will be fixed, thus boosting Parthian economy considerably.

[The Errant]

By the way, I did notice that Parthia had the lower level mining building in their capital, but it didn't turn any profit according to the economic scroll. I imagine that's a bug which will be fixed, thus boosting Parthian economy considerably.

I just checked the province. Can't seem to find any indication it actually has a mineable resource. No lesser of greater vein of precious metals. If it dosen't have any it would sure explain why the mine is not generating any income.

Would someone else mind checking up on that.

[Ower]

that would be nice

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I just checked the province. Can't seem to find any indication it actually has a mineable resource. No lesser of greater vein of precious metals. If it dosen't have any it would sure explain why the mine is not generating any income.

Would someone else mind checking up on that.
What, Nisa not having the precious metals resource?
I thought that was fixed.

[The Errant]

What, Nisa not having the precious metals resource?
I thought that was fixed.

You know anything about map cordinates MAA? If you do check the descr_strat file. At the beginning are listed all the resources, of all the provinces including precious metals like gold and silver. If none of those map cordinates fall within the province that Nisa is in then I'd say yeah, you forgot to add it.

If not then it's definately a major bug since in neither Thaatu:s or my games did the preset mine of Nisa generate any income.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

You know anything about map cordinates MAA? If you do check the descr_strat file. At the beginning are listed all the resources, of all the provinces including precious metals like gold and silver. If none of those map cordinates fall within the province that Nisa is in then I'd say yeah, you forgot to add it.

If not then it's definately a major bug since in neither Thaatu:s or my games did the preset mine of Nisa generate any income.
Yeah, I remember it was missing when I looked for it in pre081.
I'll pass this along...

[The Errant]

Yeah, I remember it was missing when I looked for it in pre081.
I'll pass this along...

Great. Now if you could just fix the Sabata tradeport bug. I'd be a very happy EB player.

[Morte66]

The VH AI Seleukids have more money than they can spend, literally, thus giving them more money wouldn't change a thing.

Hmm, I suspect they might use extra money to bribe cities (with family members and substantial armies inside) on four successive turns, instead of two. That was the end of my first effort with the lengendarily wealthy Ptolemies, bought like candy by the cash-strapped Seleucids.

In my second game I put diplomats in every single one of my cities and got that bribery resistance trait for all of them. And I went for the AS by the throat, trying to destroy them before they got up to speed. And with troops asleep on their feet, I got Antiocheia on turn 3 then got Seleukeia in 266. I thought that was the end of their pike MICs and it'd be spears from then on... ...Until about 264, heading east from Ekbatana, I ran into a 15 stack merc army including 5 stacks of mercenary medium pikemen.

It's not so much the difficulty, I like a challenge. It's a realism/believability/immersion thing. Every half hour I'm thinking "oh this is just silly".

[The Errant]

Hmm, I suspect they might use extra money to bribe cities (with family members and substantial armies inside) on four successive turns, instead of two. That was the end of my first effort with the lengendarily wealthy Ptolemies, bought like candy by the cash-strapped Seleucids.

In my second game I put diplomats in every single one of my cities and got that bribery resistance trait for all of them. And I went for the AS by the throat, trying to destroy them before they got up to speed. And with troops asleep on their feet, I got Antiocheia on turn 3 then got Seleukeia in 266. I thought that was the end of their pike MICs and it'd be spears from then on... ...Until about 264, heading east from Ekbatana, I ran into a 15 stack merc army including 5 stacks of mercenary medium pikemen.

It's not so much the difficulty, I like a challenge. It's a realism/believability/immersion thing. Every half hour I'm thinking "oh this is just silly".

Have you checked out Sheep's new money script https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83349. Could be the answer to the unbalanced economy.

[Tellos Athenaios]

So you can't trigger the marian reforms manually? I thought that that was possible in vanilla

There are two types of Marian reforms:
1) The EB Marian reforms, you can find the requirement easily enough.
2) The Vanilla reforms which occur when a city in the Italian mainland reaches the 24K population limit. (Although Roma may not work due to some trick with province swapping. But I'm not sure of this.) So if you're not playing as Romani then you just gotta be patient and hope the AI doesn't spoil your game there. This reforms is used as a placeholder for all reforms of which the apropiate triggers haven't been added in properly (yet). And this is what you're waiting for when you're AS and want to have your cataphracts.

Therefore, the only way to trigger the Marian reforms on your own, is to play as Romani.

[anubis88]

Crap!... The Romans expanded quite good for a while and confined carthage to lilibeo but Carthage struck back and reconquerd sicily and started conquering south Italy... The romans and Carthage are also fighting in Iberia but it seems that Carthage will get the upper hand since they are at war only with rome and rome is getting slowly i'ts ass kicked by an alliance of aedui arverni and lusotana...

I guess no catapract's then... i could REALLY REALLY use them right now since Egypt reconquered much of the Levant, KH is rushing on and they just conquered pergamon, lesbos, and nicea from me... Pontus started a war just now... Parthia is running over my forces in the east... and the sabyn are attacking mesopotamia.... The only thing remaining to destroy ist the Armenians starting a war...

So you see.... I could REALLY use the catapratchs:wall: !

[Ower]

Well thats VH/VH: welcome to the nightmere.

[anubis88]

thanx:egypt:
I was tired of winnig easyly so this comes as a very pleasant surprise:laugh4:

[Ower]

I'm having a ruff time on VH/M so, it's a point of view and skills.

[Watchman]

:laugh4: :whip:

Personally, I'm not into the whips-n-chains stuff. :balloon2:

[Ower]

:laugh4: :whip:
Personally, I'm not into the whips-n-chains stuff. :balloon2:

:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: me neither:laugh4:

[anubis88]

yeaaaay!!! the catas magically appaered around 220 bc!! when i've already given up hope.... it seem they came to action at the same time than the macedonian reformed phalanx (can't be sure since macedon is destroyed):2thumbsup:

[Fondor_Yards]

Both are linked to the old Marian Reforms, so yea they both come at the same time *along with the saka having access to indo-greek units, and the romans getting 2 new ships*