Mak/Epeirote Pezhetairoi

[pezhetairoi]

Just an inquiry, which may or may not be a really stupid question: How is it that the Epeirotes can recruit Pezhetairoi just like the Makedonioi (that right?) but when my Argeades take over the management of Ambrakia and Epidamnos and build a level I government there I can't recruit any, only pheraspidai and above?

[keravnos]

Now this is something we need to look into.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

I thought that this was intended to be so :dizzy2: As Pezhetairoi are already pretty limited so I thought it was meant to be so that you have to conquer Pella.

[O'ETAIPOS]

Indeed strange. We will have to check that.

[pezhetairoi]

Um, i tried out an Epeirote campaign, and process_cqed the MICs up. I found that I am indeed unable to build Pezhetairoi in Ambrakia, even at the highest level. It is possible that Basileus is right... Could you check it out, anyway? Because it seems a little strange that Pyrrhos should have a unit of Pezhetairoi in his army in front of Pella if he wasn't even able to recruit them in the first place in his kingdom...

[Arkatreides]

I did a quick check and every faction that can recruit Pezhetairoi can do so in the same regions (and they do not include the Epeirote capital). In fact, Pezhetairoi recruitment is very limited (6 regions only - Babylon, Baktria, Nile Delta, Makedonia, Syria and Thessalia).

[keravnos]

Quick question.

Since you play with Epeirote would this be a way to "force" you to go for Chaonion Agema? A much better pike unit and Epeirote specialty.

[The Errant]

Quick question.

Since you play with Epeirote would this be a way to "force" you to go for Chaonion Agema? A much better pike unit and Epeirote specialty.

I think Keravnos is right.

"Alexandros of Epeiros may have adopted phalagitai from Phillipos and his cousin, Megas Alexandros, but the tradition of infantry such as the Hypaspistai, Argyraspides, or Hetairoi were not available to the Epeirotes, who independently created their own elite forces. The Chaioniai Agemata are elite pikemen comparable the Argyraspidai."

The above description is taken directly from the Epirote faction units page. Makes sense. If the military tradition of making Pezhetairoi was exclusively the domain of the Macedonians and their successors, the Epirotes would not be able to recruit them from their homeland, where the training and tradition was lacking, but would have no trouble finding veteran pikemen in the Macedonian homeland.

The Pontics can't train Pezhetairoi either. But they can train their elite pikemen, the Chalkaspidai. Who are statwise better than the Pezhetairoi. Just like the Chaeonians.

[Watchman]

That does kind of make sense.

[Artificer]

Maybe the limited recruitment zones represent the scarce nature of men who meet the property requirements? Makedonia may be a rugged land, but at least it can be decently cultivated, unlike Epiros, which seems to be mainly mountain and steep hills.

[Krusader]

Well, Pontos really never had any good quality phalangitai. Indeed, the Chalkaspidai might get a stats reduction later.

As for Chaeonian Agema, and being forced...well if that means training an excessive amount of them then wouldn't be ahistorical? And perhaps, if they are going to have elite pikes, they should perhaps have a pool of phalangitai to draw them from?

[Brightblade]

As an avid Epirote player, I have to contend against this issue.

We should be able to recruit Pezhetairoi in Ambrakia as well, because between Deuteroi and the Chaonion sexy guys (best looking pike unit ever) there is a huge price and stat difference. I mean, it costs almost 3600 to recruit the Elites...while you have to contend with alot of Pezhetairoi and your Levy phalangites don't really cut it

Maybe modify epirote Pezhetairoi? change their names if you want to reflect the absence of many property landowners with voting rights? but don't get rid of them... right now having to bring them from Pella is a pain, but they are a solid unit to complement my Chaoniai Agemata.

[pezhetairoi]

I think it could be indeed that you have to rely on Chaonion Agema, but only when you can get it, and even then as a minority unit rather than a mainstay. Perhaps between the Phalangitai and Agema stages of development Epeirote players would have to rely on shock infantry and cavalry, the phalanx only being used to hold segments of the line. Hence the Illyrian units. No?

But I agree, it would certainly be nice to have a pezhetairoi-like intermediate unit for Epeiros available in its home provinces, something Makedonia could recruit too. It would be non-interchangeable with Pezhetairoi, and possibly slightly inferior, but certainly recruitable.

[MoROmeTe]

As I see it the Epeirote player has access to the Illyrian spearmen (lghter and heavier) and can fill the gap in his lines using those. Sure, they aren't phalangites, but the Epeirotes never really used mass phalangites...

[Watchman]

Sounds sensible enough IMO. Kinda like the pre-"Alexandrian" Makedonian infantry, which by what I've read consisted of a big bunch of rubbish levies comparable to the Psiloi of the southern Greeks (an essentially feudal and partially pastoral society doesn't tend to encourage hoplite-type systems), and a small hard cadre of Hypaspistai palace guards maintained by the king and, probably, senior aristocrats on their own expense. Such highly trained and well funded guard units can obviously differ greatly from the mainstream military tradition of a region.

I've gotten the impression the Epirote home territory is rather similar to Makedonia before its ascension overall, ie. a somewhat underdevloped and wild "border march", and that would certainly explain why the local forces differ from those of their more "sophisticated" neighbours. Low-end militia-type hoplites and phalangites and wild barbarians instead of the well-equipped citizen-soldier hoplites and Pezhetairoi of the peninsular Greeks and Maks, basically, with the high-end phalangites and such only as elite "royal guard" units.

[Morte66]

I did a quick check and every faction that can recruit Pezhetairoi can do so in the same regions (and they do not include the Epeirote capital). In fact, Pezhetairoi recruitment is very limited (6 regions only - Babylon, Baktria, Nile Delta, Makedonia, Syria and Thessalia).

They're pretty thin. My Ptolies have had three of those since ~266, and the field armies have more merc medium phalanxes than Pezzies.

[Pelopidas]

Having to use elit units doesn't mean " 10 Chaenian guard in your army " ! :]

I think that the Pezhetairoi unit Pyrhus has at the beginning represent what is left of the Hypaspists and Phalangists given to Pyrhus by Ptolemy, when the adventurer invade Italia.

Epeiros never used massive professionals pikemen.
Just like Pontos, you have semi-professionals pikemens ( better than the Pantopadoi Phalangitai, in fact ) to hold the lines, and very very very good shock troops...Illyrian Thorakitai are simply as good to use as Thracian Peltastai with Makedonia.

If you can't play without Pez...well, there's plenty of them as mercenaries, no ?

I think that the limited area for pez' conscripting is a good idea, representing the only area who have enough settlers.

[Arkatreides]

https://img267.imageshack.us/img267/7767/mappezoi0.jpg

[antisocialmunky]

Hmmm, I've always wondered why the AI always sent mobs of merc Pez at me, now I know.

[pezhetairoi]

Yups. I just wish they had a more eyecatching colour scheme though. Doesn't have to be as showy as Makedonia's Pezzes, but at a little more interesting than drab brown the shade of mud... :(

[paullus]

No, there should be no pezhetairoi available in Epeirote lands. Sorry. What we should perhaps consider is minimizing the availability of merc pezhetairoi, as there are far too many of them.

As far as alternatives to the deuteroi and chaionians, the Epeirotes should be utilizing your sexy Illyrians, traditional hoplitai, and probably some nice new fellas you'll be seeing soon enough, but I won't tell you what they are...

[Brightblade]

well, I guess not having them in Ambrakia doesn't really matter if you can still recruit them in Pella which is conveniently located right next to Pyrrhus :P

New unit huh? sexy

and yes I agree epirote color schemes are rather.. muddy, except of course for the gorgeous Chaoinai Agemata

[JeffBag]

I, on the other hand, love the Epirote Pezhetairoi's colours. That deep green shield with the light grey tunic gives a feeling of serenity and peace. The Molosson and Chaonion Agema are beautiful too, and the Prodromoi are fantastically showy.

[pezhetairoi]

Um...serenity and peace, I think, are exactly the wrong image we want to convey in what is, after all, a Total War game. XD I guess it puts the enemy at peace and makes him less disposed to fighting the Pezhetairoi...

Oh, and the colour scheme I was talking about wasn't the Epeirote one, I was talking about Misthophoroi Phalangitai. And while we're at it, Misthophoroi Hoplitai are drab white, too...

[Morte66]

What we should perhaps consider is minimizing the availability of merc pezhetairoi, as there are far too many of them.

Much as I appreciate merc pezheteroi, who have just conquered Macedon for my KH at the Great Big Siege of Pella, that is very true.

[LordCurlyton]

Even though I use the merc Pezzes heavily, I agree as well. It makes it far too easy to recruit some fine armies. I refer to Merc Pez areas as my "Pez Dispensers". It just seems odd that it is so damned rare for the factional Pezzes yet apparently scads of them just wander around as mercs. I would say that Pezhertairoi recruitment should be expanded some, especially for the big boys AS and Ptolie.

[Ludens]

On a related subject: I notice that the description of the Pezhetairoi has been changed. It used to say that they were the backbone of the Successor armies, now they are the heart. Has there been a rethinking of their prominence, or is it because kleruch phalangites have been implemented that their frequency has been decreased?

[Krusader]

On a related subject: I notice that the description of the Pezhetairoi has been changed. It used to say that they were the backbone of the Successor armies, now they are the heart. Has there been a rethinking of their prominence, or is it because kleruch phalangites have been implemented that their frequency has been decreased?

Well, the idea has always been for kleruchikon phalangitai to be the rank-and-file or backbone troops of Seleukids & Ptolemies at least.
Think Pezhetairoi are meant to fill the same gap for Makedonia (and to a certain extent Baktria, although Baktrian armies are to be more cavalry oriented). It also seems Epeirote Pezhetairoi are just meant to be Macedonian troops serving Epeirote kings should Epeiros conquer Makedonia.

Think the Pez description was among the oldest ones written in EB too.

[Ludens]

Well, the idea has always been for kleruchikon phalangitai to be the rank-and-file or backbone troops of Seleukids & Ptolemies at least.
Think Pezhetairoi are meant to fill the same gap for Makedonia (and to a certain extent Baktria, although Baktrian armies are to be more cavalry oriented). It also seems Epeirote Pezhetairoi are just meant to be Macedonian troops serving Epeirote kings should Epeiros conquer Makedonia.
Thanks for clearing this up. So Backtria, Makedon and Epeiros won't get an unit equivalent to the Kleruch Phalangites?

[Krusader]

Thanks for clearing this up. So Backtria, Makedon and Epeiros won't get an unit equivalent to the Kleruch Phalangites?

Actually we are discussing the possibility.
Baktria would be Mesopotamia and westwards while Maks & Epeiros would basically be non-European type2 lands with perhaps some modifications.
After all the Antigonids ruled Makedonia and they even had some kleruchoi settlements (or similar) for Thracian troops in Makedonia. If they had managed to "reclaim" their possesions in Phrygia and Anatolia then they'd probably take over the military settlements of the Seleukids. The Attalids of Pergamon did the same when they conquered Seleukid Anatolia (even though they were pushed back).

But it's all in discussion phase as for now.

[Ludens]

I would certainly like to see the other successors get access to Kleruchoi as well. However, I meant to ask whether Makedon, Epeiros and Bactria would get a similar unit (a pikeman in between levies and Pezhetairoi) in their home provinces.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

I would also like Epeiros to be able to recruit Kleruchikoi. Although it would be the first "what-if" unit in EB:laugh4:

[Krusader]

I would certainly like to see the other successors get access to Kleruchoi as well. However, I meant to ask whether Makedon, Epeiros and Bactria would get a similar unit (a pikeman in between levies and Pezhetairoi) in their home provinces.

Don't think there is one.
As I understood the kleruchikon phalangitai is supposed to be almost similarly statted as a pezhetairoi, only more expensive due to the kleruchs being paid salaries while on duty and reduced taxes than others (to incite Greeks, Maks, Thracians etc. to settle in the kingdoms). Pezhetairoi supported themselves, being drawn from property owners.