Israeli influence in U.S. - the big picture

[Adrian II]

Israeli spies are stopped or arrested in the U.S. all the time. American diplomatic personnel are tracked and supervised by Israeli agents. Israeli telecom firms with Israeli headquarters monitor American government communications. Israeli moles or visiting scientists steal military secrets and allegedly sell them to third countries.

I read lots of official and/or reliable reports and documents about Israeli influence in the United States. Also lots of paranoid crap. So it's back to basics for Adrian II.

What exactly is this special relationship?

I would appreciate it if Americans and other knowledgeable members would fill me in on things I may be missing. How far does Israeli influence reach in the U.S. and what are the reasons, the aims, the ties, the lies?

What's the big picture?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

That's a good question.

Some of the continuing support is a result of the Holacaust and our collective sense of guilt that we didn't step in fast enough to avert it -- though I suspect this sense of guilt is not unique to the USA.

Our citizens of jewish ancestry have been fairly supportive of a state of Israel since the end of WW2. With some concentrations of Jews being fairly dense -- NYC & Florida for example, they had some ready connections in the HOR and the US Senate -- and New York was and is an important electoral state (and Florida has become so). This explains some of the ongoing political capital available to them.

On the other hand, this does not explain why we do not (to ky knowledge) extract some kind of a price for Mossad's actions inside the USA and have turned a lenient eye towards Israeli attacks on the the USN etc.

I will need to think on this more.

[Adrian II]

I will need to think on this more.I know you are doing a lot of (re)thinking on the Iraq war lately. So am I.

When we discuss the root causes of that episode, isn't Israel the elephant in the room? Or at least the zebra?

[Pannonian]

I know you are doing a lot of (re)thinking on the Iraq war lately. So am I.

When we discuss the root causes of that episode, isn't Israel the elephant in the room? Or at least the zebra?
Careful, or you'll be accused of anti-semitism.

[Adrian II]

Careful, or you'll be accused of anti-semitism.Are elephants Jewish? :coffeenews:

[Crazed Rabbit]

I know you are doing a lot of (re)thinking on the Iraq war lately. So am I.

When we discuss the root causes of that episode, isn't Israel the elephant in the room? Or at least the zebra?

What do you mean by that?

CR

[Tribesman]

When we discuss the root causes of that episode, isn't Israel the elephant in the room?
Only so far as if you are looking at the bigger picture , of which Iraq is one small but currently messy part .
One sign of this would be the Saudi statements that accompanied the resending of the old peace deal offer , they are attempting to take back their big player status from Iran . A result of that attempt has been seen in the Israeli objections to the US arms shipments .

[Beirut]

I would appreciate it if Americans and other knowledgeable members would fill me in on things I may be missing. How far does Israeli influence reach in the U.S. and what are the reasons, the aims, the ties, the lies?

What's the big picture?

In his book, By Way of Deception, former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky said 90% of Israeli foreign ops are run out of Canada. This goes hand in hand with another claim that Israeli agents stole a shipment of one thousand blank Canadian passports. Which also goes hand in hand with Israeli agents arrested while using Canadian passports as cover in an assassination attempt.

[Strike For The South]

You want to know the big picture. Isreal has America by the balls.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I know you are doing a lot of (re)thinking on the Iraq war lately. So am I.

When we discuss the root causes of that episode, isn't Israel the elephant in the room? Or at least the zebra?

An interesting point.

If you asked a goodly number of us, the sample would show you that fewer than 1 in 5 could spell out the connection between our support of Israel and the war in Iraq. Though a far greater number could give you a well-versed discussion of Sanjaya's success on Idol. [I'm not even sure if that's how his name is spelled]

If you were to ask the same question of virtually any arab group in the Middle East, I'd guess half or more of them could give you a gloss of it.

Heck yeah, if we cut Israel off completely -- no UNSC vetos, no aid, no preferred purchaser status for weapons, must renounce US citizenship to accept Israeli citizenship -- there are many in the arab world who would view us as "regaining our senses" and -- at least in limited fashion -- treat us with less contempt. But the alliance has a lot of history and the 5+ decades of support rendered already will not be forgotten for some time -- nor forgiven by a goodly number. So what's to be done?

[Hepcat]

In his book, By Way of Deception, former Mossad agent Victor Ostrovsky said 90% of Israeli foreign ops are run out of Canada. This goes hand in hand with another claim that Israeli agents stole a shipment of one thousand blank Canadian passports. Which also goes hand in hand with Israeli agents arrested while using Canadian passports as cover in an assassination attempt.

Last year sometime there were 2 Mossad agents caught using false passports in New Zealand. It makes no sense. Why would Israel want to spy on us? Are they plotting a sheep heist or do they want to steal the kiwi fruit like China?

[KafirChobee]

Since Carter things have changed. Carter knew that by taking Egypt out of the equation to invade Israel that the other arabstates couldn't. It was, and is that simple. And, it only cost us one life - Sadat's (the bravest man of the last century). Those that want to trash Carter over this acheivement - feel fee to. Of course, in all fairness I hope you also slam the god Reagan for his screwing everything up that Carter left for him (diplomaticly that is - after all Cartet did leave him s

Thing is, we owe Israel nothing. They have used spys against us and withheld information vital to our security; unless it would further their own objectives.

I've said this before, and it has been ignored. but .... pay attention to the reality or get lost in the quagmire of rightist thought.
It's a bitch for some to accept reality.


personally, living in a dream has an appeal - but facing reality is practicle to those that think ... for themselves.

[Adrian II]

There are direct and indirect ties between the two governments.

The most important indirect tie is the Israel lobby in the United States. And it's Likudnik. It is not a "Jewish" lobby: a sizeable portion of Jews in the world and in the U.S. don't care about Israel, and those who do don't necessarily agree with AIPAC and the other major organisations in the lobby. This Likud lobby is rich, influential and very active. That is nothing special as far as lobbies go. The point is that of all powerful lobbies in the U.S. (oil, arms, farmers, NRA, doctors, lawyers, pharceutical industry) this one has intensive foreign involvement and strings attached.

Then there is the high level of official cooperation, more intense than with any other U.S. ally. And it seems Israel is abusing this level of cooperation more than any other ally (espionage and theft, but also the feeding of fake intelligence to the U.S.).

[Grey_Fox]

Last year sometime there were 2 Mossad agents caught using false passports in New Zealand. It makes no sense. Why would Israel want to spy on us? Are they plotting a sheep heist or do they want to steal the kiwi fruit like China?

It's not considered the smartest thing in the world to go straight from Israel to Iran, it tends to tip off the authorities. Intelligence agents go from their original country to maybe 3 or 4 others in order to make it seem like they are coming from there.

[Adrian II]

Carter knew that by taking Egypt out of the equation to invade Israel that the other arab states couldn't. It was, and is that simple. And, it only cost us one life - Sadat's (the bravest man of the last century).Snag! :beatnik2:

It cost a little bit more than that.

Look up the numbers in the USAID Greenbook. Since the end of WWII the United States has transferred grants (not loans or other instruments, just plain grants) for a total of $93 billion to Egypt and $153 billion to Israel alone. The bulk of this assistance was given after Camp David. And I am not counting other Arab countries in the region who have made peace with Israel or changed their stance toward Israel under American pressure.

Israel is the only U.S. aid recipient that does not have to account for the way it spends the aid money. Among other things, the U.S. aid money is spent on Israeli settlement building and other activities that run counter to proclaimed U.S. Middle East policy.

link (http://qesdb.usaid.gov/cgi-bin/broker.exe?_program=gbkprogs.country_list.sas&_service=default&unit=R) (in the options menu, pick Standard Greenbook Report)

EDIT
Makes you wonder how much of that U.S. aid to Israel is funnelled back to the U.S. to help influence U.S. policy toward .. Israel.

[Azi Tohak]

I'm of no help trying to figure out cloak and dagger stuff like this. Seems to me our media roundly condemned Israel for going after the-garbage-heap-formerly-known-as-Lebanon.

I am very much pro-Israel myself, but I think that is more leftover from my very anti-Arab papa. I respect that Israel has been able to make a sovereign nation from kibbutz and illegal aliens. I do not like how by its simple existence it manages to antagonize every Moslem country in the world.

I do think the world would be happier had Israel never been created by fiat by the UN. But I think all those countries would still find some reason to hate the West.

Not that it matters now. The only thing that would kick 'em out of that precious little strip is the Second Coming or some devastating weapons.

Azi

[Kanamori]

Maybe they just had their giraffe neck through the window?

[Fragony]

What's the big picture?

There was a pretty good and lenghty article in the NRC monthly a few moths back, 'de wurggreep van de Israelische Lobby', couldn't find it but maybe you have better luck.

[JR-]

I respect that Israel has been able to make a sovereign nation from kibbutz and illegal aliens. I do not like how by its simple existence it manages to antagonize every Moslem country in the world.

I do think the world would be happier had Israel never been created by fiat by the UN. But I think all those countries would still find some reason to hate the West.

Azi
agreed.

Israel exists, it is time for palestinians, and syrians to get used to the idea of an israel within pre-67 borders.

[Pannonian]

Edit: removed tomatoes and custard pies from scene.

[Adrian II]

Gentlemen, please, let's not have the familiar Israeli-Palestinian foodfight in this thread. There are otehr threads for that.

This one is about Israel's influence on the United States.

[Beirut]

I heard a story about Israel trying to blackmail Eisenhower back in the 50s. They said they would make his adulterous excursions public if he didn't toe the Israeli line. He told them to stuff it. I'm off to Google this, but has anyone else heard about it?

[JR-]

Gentlemen, please, let's not have the familiar Israeli-Palestinian foodfight in this thread. There are otehr threads for that.

This one is about Israel's influence on the United States.
roger :)

[Spino]

One can take exception to Israel's actions but like all nations it is acting purely out of its own self interest. I can understand the animosity some people may have towards Israel, after all it's really bad form whenever an ally goes to such great lengths to spy upon and steal secrets from its biggest ally and benefactor. However the social darwinist in me firmly believes in the phrase, 'All's fair in love and war". Whatever delusions certain Jews may have about them being the 'chosen people' or whether they honestly believe they have a rightful claim to their ancestral lands is irrelevant. Combine the major events of the previous century with the fact that Israel is and you can see why that nation continues to operate purely out of survival instinct tempered with desperation. So while the thought of an ally stealing our national secrets does get my blood up I cannot blame them for doing so.

The real problem I have is with the inaction of my country in the face of such dishonest and dishonorable conduct. After all, who is sponsoring who? It is our government and citizens that should be held accountable when secrets are sold to foreign agents. It is our leaders that should be held accountable when they kowtow to nations who place unreasonable demands on us.

[Adrian II]

Thanks Pannonian and Peregrine Tergiversate. :bow:

And thanks Beirut for the suggestion. I have never heard of it - but then there are entire universes that Adrian II has never heard of. All concrete leads are welcome.

There is also a different aspect to the relationship: what has U.S. support for Israel meant for the Israeli state, Israeli society and Israeli policies?

Which political forces and state capacities have been enhanced, which have been curtailed as a result of it? And in what ways has American Christian Zionism managed to leverage Israeli extremism to help bring about the second coming of Christ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

I heard a story about Israel trying to blackmail Eisenhower back in the 50s. They said they would make his adulterous excursions public if he didn't toe the Israeli line. He told them to stuff it. I'm off to Google this, but has anyone else heard about it?I've never heard of it. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. I dunno, I can't googlefind it either.

This does remind me to mention that there is a historical perspective to America being Israel's bitch. Namely, that it is of fairly recent origin. I'd say, after 1973.

In the days of Eisenhower, America was still the defender of Arab freedom against one of America's historical adversaries, and America's great rival in the Middle East: Great Britain. For nukes, military co-operation against Arab threats, weapons supplies, Israel still had to look elsewhere. Under Eisenhower, America objected to western neo-imperialistic military intervention in the Arab world, and against armed co-operation with Israel.

This...changed.

Somewhere between Suez in 1956 and the oil crisis in 1973 the current close Israeli-American alliance was formed.

It is a product of the cold war; of Jewish-American lobbying; the overrepresentation of persons loyal to Israel* in the media, journalism, thinkthanks and the government; evangelical identification with Israel; protection of oil interests; and the somewhat naive believe in Israel as a sole western democracy in the Middle East that's struggling against the odds. Each of these factors has a long and intricate history of it's own, and I'm not sure I've got them all. So there you go, Adrian - homework for you! :beam:

* 'Jews and others supportive of Israel'

[Pannonian]

In the days of Eisenhower, America was still the defender of Arab freedom against one of America's historical adversaries, and America's great rival in the Middle East: Great Britain. For nukes, military co-operation against Arab threats, weapons supplies, Israel still had to look elsewhere. Under Eisenhower, America objected to western neo-imperialistic military intervention in the Arab world, and against armed co-operation with Israel.

Back then, the troika was Israel-Britain-France.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I know. But I am trying to avoid the F-word popping up in each and every one of my posts. ~;)

I simply left it to the informed reader, because the topic is not the French-Israeli relationship, and I don't want to drag the discussion into that. Implicitly, my perspective, my point of view, was quite clear to the careful observer, yes.

[Fragony]

He is french allright, ask Algeria ~;)

[Adrian II]

So there you go, Adrian - homework for you! :beam:I was aware of the load, and I am cramming away here. ~D

However, assorted pixels do not a big picture make. In the end it comes down to agent theories in international relations: who decides, who imposes choice on others, who's the dog and who's the tail?

[Fragony]

I was aware of the load, and I am cramming away here. ~D

However, assorted pixels do not a big picture make. In the end it comes down to agent theories in international relations: who decides, who imposes choice on others, who's the dog and who's the tail?

You don't like him but the Chomster has a few good books on it, dunno if it is true given his apparent disposition, but 'rogue states' and 'faithfull triangle' are pretty good reads. Joe Sacco makes does it comic style, quite good.

[Pannonian]

One can take exception to Israel's actions but like all nations it is acting purely out of its own self interest. I can understand the animosity some people may have towards Israel, after all it's really bad form whenever an ally goes to such great lengths to spy upon and steal secrets from its biggest ally and benefactor. However the social darwinist in me firmly believes in the phrase, 'All's fair in love and war". Whatever delusions certain Jews may have about them being the 'chosen people' or whether they honestly believe they have a rightful claim to their ancestral lands is irrelevant. Combine the major events of the previous century with the fact that Israel is and you can see why that nation continues to operate purely out of survival instinct tempered with desperation. So while the thought of an ally stealing our national secrets does get my blood up I cannot blame them for doing so.

The real problem I have is with the inaction of my country in the face of such dishonest and dishonorable conduct. After all, who is sponsoring who? It is our government and citizens that should be held accountable when secrets are sold to foreign agents. It is our leaders that should be held accountable when they kowtow to nations who place unreasonable demands on us.
Anyone who questions the America-Israel narrative gets hit with anti-semitic accusations, which ties in to all the variants of Godwin. The variant I've described notes that the modern American mythos rests on the twin mythologies of the Greatest Generation and the Holocaust. These are the two most powerful arguments one can muster in the modern America, and the two are always linked. Patriotism for America must also mean patriotism for Israel, and any slackening in either means one is not worthy of the legacy of the Greatest Generation, and one is thus a Holocaust supporter. Go through the the Backroom archives, or the archives of any other forum for that matter, and you'll see any thread discussing US foreign affairs and/or Israel will inevitably result in the above argument being made.

In the light of the above, the easiest course to take is to just give in to the Israel lobby and do whatever they ask for. If one looks further back than the 20th century, this is exactly the kind of relationship with foreign states that outgoing president Washington was warning about.

[Adrian II]

In the light of the above, the easiest course to take is to just give in to the Israel lobby and do whatever they ask for. If one looks further back than the 20th century, this is exactly the kind of relationship with foreign states that outgoing president Washington was warning about.I get your point. But exactly what kind is this relationship? That's what I want to know.

[Beirut]

Originally Posted by Beirut
I heard a story about Israel trying to blackmail Eisenhower back in the 50s. They said they would make his adulterous excursions public if he didn't toe the Israeli line. He told them to stuff it. I'm off to Google this, but has anyone else heard about it?


I've never heard of it. Maybe it's true, maybe it isn't. I dunno, I can't googlefind it either.


I can't find it either. But I do remember hearing the story years ago.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

It is a product of the cold war; of Jewish-American lobbying; the overrepresentation of persons loyal to Israel in the media, journalism, thinkthanks and the government; evangelical identification with Israel; protection of oil interests; and the somewhat naive believe in Israel as a sole western democracy in the Middle East that's struggling against the odds. Each of these factors has a long and intricate history of it's own, and I'm not sure I've got them all. So there you go, Adrian - homework for you! :beam:

Note: Emphasis added, was not this way in original.

Good post Luigi, but I think the words LOYAL TO inappropriate -- smacks too much of zionist conspiracy crap (which I don't believe you had in mind). I'd substitute "supportive of" in order to change the tenor of the point just a bit.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I think the words LOYAL TO inappropriate -- smacks too much of zionist conspiracy crap Well I've been reading a lot of essays by the Institute for Historical Research lately...~;)

'Loyal' is'nt quite the right word, no. Looking back at it now, I might have substituted it for 'identifying with'.
The poor choice of words is owing to me doubting between saying 'Jews being overrepresented' or saying 'people identifying with Israel in general being overrepresented'. The former would be both incomplete because it omits non-Jews identifying with Israel and because it would include Jews not identifying with Israel. The latter is unprecise because it mixes up cause and result of Israeli influence.

Hmm, maybe I'll change it into 'Jews and others supportive of Israel'. Not perfect but good enough.


BTW - is your post entirely coincidental or are you alluding to that recent 'Jewish lobby' thread? If you are, I mean, I don't care, but I took great pains in that thread to state in every post that despite me taking issue with the anti-semitism of the source I was quite willing to otherwise engage in any conversation about Jewish/Israeli influence in U.S..
I even went against my principle not to debate Jews or Israel under the premise of a denial of the Holocaust, just to prevent the (false) assumption that negative aspects of Israel can not be discussed without the accusation of anti-Semitism.
I was willing to discuss any Jewish / Israeli lobby, without me accusing anybody of anti-Semitism. If anybody wanted too, I was right there. Others too. I wasn't the one that abandoned the subject.
If I were to say, 'I'm interested in discussing Americans. They all torture black babies. Please let's not throw accusations of anti-Americanism around', followed by a link to Al-Qaeda where Osama says Americans torture black babies, what would your reply be?
Would you for the sake of argument go along with it, and discuss america under this premise? Wouldn't your reply be something akin to what I posted, and kept posting: 'Sorry, your source about baby-torture is false and reeks of anti-Americanism, coming as it is from Osama, a person of well-known anti-American ideology. But other than that, I'm quite willing to discuss any aspect of America' ?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

BTW - is your post entirely coincidental or are you alluding to that recent 'Jewish lobby' thread? If you are, I mean, I don't care, but I took great pains in that thread to state in every post that despite me taking issue with the anti-semitism of the source I was quite willing to otherwise engage in any conversation about Jewish/Israeli influence in U.S..
I even went against my principle not to debate Jews or Israel under the premise of a denial of the Holocaust, just to prevent the (false) assumption that negative aspects of Israel can not be discussed without the accusation of anti-Semitism.
I was willing to discuss any Jewish / Israeli lobby, without me accusing anybody of anti-Semitism. If anybody wanted too, I was right there. Others too. I wasn't the one that abandoned the subject.
If I were to say, 'I'm interested in discussing Americans. They all torture black babies. Please let's not throw accusations of anti-Americanism around', followed by a link to Al-Qaeda where Osama says Americans torture black babies, what would your reply be?

I think my post was coincidental.

I read and even posted in the Jewish Lobby thread, but did not throw anti-semite labels about -- didn't see a need. Bashing Israeli policy/actions is not, prima facie, an expression of anti-semitism. Sadly, some of the sources used by those in the thread were fairly "polarized" -- which can make for bad analysis if not used with a modicum of salt.


Would you for the sake of argument go along with it, and discuss america under this premise? Wouldn't your reply be something akin to what I posted, and kept posting: 'Sorry, your source about baby-torture is false and reeks of anti-Americanism, coming as it is from Osama, a person of well-known anti-American ideology. But other than that, I'm quite willing to discuss any aspect of America' ?

Actually, I'd confirm whether you were using "baby torture" literally -- in which case I don't think there's a lot of support and would probably not respond -- or figuratively (as in denial of opportunity, cultural baggage preventing self-development) in which case there is the meat of a good argument/discussion to be explored.

[Tribesman]

George Soros has stepped into the fray , especially concerning the role of AIPAC .
What a silly bugger , he instantly gets labeled as a self-hating Jew and even got called Hitlerite:dizzy2:

[Bijo]

lol @ the fat man :laugh4:


In any case it's probably that Israel indeed has America by the balls, as said earlier. Or there is some other group / entity (or more) that has America by the balls in a firm pressing grip, or both America and Israel.

What can I say? I don't like going too much into detail.

[ShadeHonestus]

The special relationship is often expressed in Wisconsin by presidential candidates in front of Jewish audiences.

We then proceed to Imus them.