Virginia Tech shooting

[Don Corleone]

Other than the fact that the USA was lower on the per-capita list than I expected (so size doesn't matter Scurvy), I don't see anything all that amazing. But are there any insights into the REASONS for the relative positions, Adrian? Violent at the societal level? Violent at the personal level? Invididualistic versus collective personalities? Wealth distribution? Education level? There doesn't appear to be any clear pattern to it.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Also, I agree, we shouldn't be debating guns even if they allowed extra deaths, we should try and prevent the entire incident.

[Crazed Rabbit]

But. One in 10000 americans gets killed by firearms each year. At Virginia Tech, 'population' 30000, this would mean 3 deaths per year. So the benefits of there having been guns on monday would've been offset already within a decade. And that is where this 'self-defense' pro-gun argument goes wrong. All things considered, guns cost innocent lives, even if they save some at some instances. It's the net benefit to society debate again, but we won't agree on the numbers.

No, the number is, as I said before, 1 in 20,000 are killed by someone with a gun.

Even taking away the deterrence of tyranny, guns offer a net benefit to society.

Simply put - most people are good, and would use their guns for good purposes.

Objectively, over two million people use their guns to defend themselves every year. That absolutely dwarfs the 15,000 killed by people with guns, especially considering that figure includes the many criminals and gang members killed. Your point about the benefits going away in a decade assumes no crime will ever occur there again - rather silly, imo.

There is no debate about benefits and costs of the existence of guns. Guns help vastly, vastly more than they hurt. Gun control only reduces the benefits, it doesn't stop criminals.


I don't even think there is a net benefit to the individual to own handguns.

Millions would disagree from personal experience.


Can you conceal a container of gasoline large enough to immolate 30 people in your underwear?

You can conceal several gallons in a backpack.


Is the U.S. smaller than Jamaica or the Seychelles?

Jamaica? Where they throw you in prison for having a gun? Ya, splendid argument for gun control.


I know there are very long odds on the latter taking place, but there are also long odds on you ever having to use your handgun to defend yourself.

Your scenario has happened perhaps a couple times this last century. Break ins occur every day.

Goofball - since when should rights be weighed against society? Has humanity gone from 'Give me liberty or give me death' to 'give me liberty as long as I can't poke my eye out with it'.

Are we in agreement, then, that a trained person with a gun in class could have stopped this much earlier?

CR

[Husar]

Anyway, I too think that gun debates are boring, but boring or not what's more important is that it's futile for the reasons mentioned already. We must not address guns, but address the wielders of guns, but more importantly overall address *SOCIETY*.
I already tried that in my last post but since it's completely ignored I feel a bit like I made a clown of myself by sharing some thoughts and stories from deep down inside me that not many people know.:shrug:

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Cho contacted nbc:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/


Sometime after he killed two people in a Virginia university dormitory but before he slaughtered 30 more in a classroom building Monday morning, Cho Seung-Hui sent NBC News a rambling communication and videos about his grievances, the network said Wednesday.

Network officials turned the material over to the FBI and said they would not immediately disclose its contents beyond characterizing the material as “disturbing.” It included a written communication, photographs and video.

Brian Williams, anchor and managing editor of “NBC Nightly News,” said in a posting on the program’s “Daily Nightly” blog that the communication was received earlier Wednesday. He described it as a very long “multimedia manifesto.”
In an interview with MSNBC.com, Capus said Cho talks to the camera in the videos. In one instance, he makes a vague reference to the massacre, Capus said. "This didn't have to happen.""The statement is hard to follow, kind of rambling. He speaks about hatred," Capus said, adding that it was "disturbing, very angry, profanity laced."Police said the development might be "a very new, critical component of this investigation.""We're in the process right now of attempting to analyze and evaluate its worth," said Col. Steve Flaherty, superintendent of Virginia State Police.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Sorry Husar.

The mental reasons and motivation that he had for doing this are the most important aspect. It's obvious he was not normal for a while - but what do you do? Force him to see a shrink? It seem some people tried to talk to him, to no avail.

Was he a symptom of society? A bad family life? What led to him being this way?

Frankly, I don't think normal society was the cause of this. Normal people don't do this. Was he chemically unbalanced? We need more info for such questions.

EDIT: Apparently, he was found mentally ill by a court! VT Killer Ruled Mentally Ill by Court; Let Go After Hospital Visit (http://abcnews.go.com/US/story?id=3052278&page=1). He displayed unusual behavior before.
CR

[Don Corleone]

Well, it can't be universal phenomenon like chemical imbalances or anything like that. One would expect that two heterogenously mixed societies would have relatively equal weights of mental illness, etcetera. Yet, here we are with the US at #20 and Canada not even making the list, that I could see. Part of it has to be cultural identity, that something about being American makes it less taboo than it would if we were Canadian (or Swiss, if people are tired of hearing me yammer about the canuks, though then the whole genetically heterogenously mixed gene pool).

[Goofball]

I don't even think there is a net benefit to the individual to own handguns.Millions would disagree from personal experience.

And millions would also agree from personal experience.



Can you conceal a container of gasoline large enough to immolate 30 people in your underwear?You can conceal several gallons in a backpack.

Are you honestly trying to argue that I would have a better chance of killing thirty people with a couple of gallons of gas that I would have to wrestle out of my backpack, disperse among my victims, then light on fire, than I would with a glock and a few 15-round mags?



I'm not saying you don't have a need to own handguns. I'm just saying that your need to own a handgun is outweighed by your kid's need not to get accidentally shot by you when she is sneaking in after curfew. I know there are very long odds on the latter taking place, but there are also long odds on you ever having to use your handgun to defend yourself.Your scenario has happened perhaps a couple times this last century. Break ins occur every day.

So it is your contention that there have only been "a couple" of accidental deaths due to handguns between 1900 and 2000?


Goofball - since when should rights be weighed against society? Has humanity gone from 'Give me liberty or give me death' to 'give me liberty as long as I can't poke my eye out with it'.

I don't care if you poke your eye out with it. It's my eye I'm worried about.


Are we in agreement, then, that a trained person with a gun in class could have stopped this much earlier?

Could have?

Yes.

Would have?

No.

Are we also in agreement then, that having an entire university's student body carrying around guns would also increase the number of shootings that took place at that university in a given year?

And where does all this "trained" stuff come from? As far as I know, all you need to buy a gun the state where this took place is a drivers licence and no criminal record. Basically, you have to have a face in order to be able to buy a gun.

[Louis VI the Fat]

Teh boring gun debate again!


The real question is: what makes one society more violent (http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita)than another?Just a minute there. Being the amateur psychologist I am, I believe that the odds of Cho ever resorting to or ever having resorted to a more physical form of violence are quite slim. Save perhaps for something much smaller, Pets, (timid) girls, he probably wouldn't have physically attacked anything. You bully him at school, and he continues his pace, ignoring you, not saying anything, he just keeps moving along with his head down. Meanwhile, inside he's thinking, the thought is brewing, 'I'm going to shoot everybody's arse'. This gives him strength, a last vestige of self-esteem, a sense of power and control.

So the availability and the culture of guns played a part in this massacre. A simple pro/anti gun debate can not be the end all of this case, yes. But it can not simply be dismissed either.
Guns are not always only the means. They can also be the cause of violence. Or the form violent behaviour takes.

There are many angles to discuss this case from. Me, I wouldn't mind approaching this from a gender perspective. The overwhelming statistic in school shootings is, that they are committed by men. So overwhelming, that it is taken for granted and goes overlooked. But I think the biggest gain towards prevention can be achieved by putting gender into the forefront. But gun culture is an important perspective too, and bound to find a larger audience here.

[Crazed Rabbit]

So it is your contention that there have only been "a couple" of accidental deaths due to handguns between 1900 and 2000?

I was referring to your talk about a father shooting his daughter while she snuck into the house.


Are you honestly trying to argue that I would have a better chance of killing thirty people with a couple of gallons of gas that I would have to wrestle out of my backpack, disperse among my victims, then light on fire, than I would with a glock and a few 15-round mags?

The worst killings in America involved explosives that are easy to access. And no, you wouldn't go about using gas in the same manner as pistols.


I don't care if you poke your eye out with it. It's my eye I'm worried about.

So you want to punish me for something I might do?


Are we also in agreement then, that having an entire university's student body carrying around guns would also increase the number of shootings that took place at that university in a given year?
No.


And where does all this "trained" stuff come from? As far as I know, all you need to buy a gun the state where this took place is a drivers licence and no criminal record. Basically, you have to have a face in order to be able to buy a gun.

You need more than that, though, to get a permit in Virginia to carry a concealed weapon.

I always wonder if the huge media exposure on these things has anything to do with it. 'Kill a bunch of people and your bad plays will be nationally famous!' Seems like brooders who want to express their hat might find being nationally televised a good way to 'show the world'.

Crazed Rabbit

[Sasaki Kojiro]

https://img409.imageshack.us/img409/1746/stgmegakillerspeaks251pob0.jpg

Interesting.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776/page/2/

Link to videos. Click on the "multimedia manifesto" link.

[CrossLOPER]

https://img409.imageshack.us/img409/1746/stgmegakillerspeaks251pob0.jpg

Interesting.
Crazyman's got style. Should have stayed with the hammer.

[Crazed Rabbit]

A link to the 2002 Appalachian School of Law shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting) - where a gunman was going around shooting people and two students who had their firearms nearby stopped him from killing more people, and non of the hypothetical nightmare BS spouted off by anti-gunners happened:


When Odighizuwa exited the building where the shooting took place, he was approached by two students with personal firearms.[5]

At the first sound of gunfire, fellow students Tracy Bridges and Mikael Gross, unbeknownst to each other, ran to their vehicles to fetch their personally owned firearms.[6] Gross, a police officer with the Grifton Police Department in his home state of North Carolina, retrieved a bulletproof vest and a 9 mm pistol.[7] Bridges pulled his .357 Magnum pistol from beneath the driver's seat of his Chevy Tahoe. As Bridges later told the Richmond Times Dispatch, he was prepared to shoot to kill.[8]

Bridges and Gross approached Odighizuwa from different angles, with Bridges yelling at Odighizuwa to drop his gun.[9] Odighizuwa then dropped his firearm and was subdued by several other unarmed students.[10] Once Odighizuwa was securely held down, Gross went back to his vehicle and retrieved handcuffs to detain Odighizuwa until police could arrive.

Kind of throws the anti-gun arguments out the window.

CR

[Major Robert Dump]

I think based on the video he made between the shootings that he sent to NBC and the pictures found in his room, that the people here who are arguing that this guy is not a whack job can now remove their foot from their mouth

[scooter_the_shooter]

I think based on the video he made between the shootings that he sent to NBC and the pictures found in his room, that the people here who are arguing that this guy is not a whack job can now remove their foot from their mouth


I've been away from the net for a a while (since a few days before the shooting) So I'm not through all nine pages yet but I haven't seen anyone say he was not a nut case.

[Tribesman]

Jamaica? Where they throw you in prison for having a gun? Ya, splendid argument for gun control.

They don't throw you in prison in Jamaica for having a gun , they throw you in prison if you have an unregistered gun and no firearms license or if you have a licence and registered gun but commit a crime .
Remember Rabbit , foriegn gun laws is not your stong suit .:idea2:

[Goofball]

A link to the 2002 Appalachian School of Law shooting (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appalachian_School_of_Law_shooting) - where a gunman was going around shooting people and two students who had their firearms nearby stopped him from killing more people, and non of the hypothetical nightmare BS spouted off by anti-gunners happened:



Kind of throws the anti-gun arguments out the window.

CR

How so?

A trained police officer successfully subdued a man with a gun.

Sounds just like how I would want it to happen.

How is that the same as a bunch of frightened college students blazing away at each other?

And if you are prepared to accept a single "successful" anecdote as proof that gun control is bad, why would you not be willing to accept another anecdote such as the subject of this very thread (man kills 32 people with legally purchased firearms) that gun control is too lax?

Have it one way or the other, my friend. We could both sit here linking articles all day. But it's all just anecdote, not Earth-shattering proof of anything.

[scooter_the_shooter]

Rabbit do what you want to do but I'll give you some advice.


When it comes to gun control, debate with the mildly anti or fence sitting people. but don't bother with the rabid anti gunners. There is no changing their mind. If they say that your firearm needs to be confiscated just tell them to come and get it and leave it at that.

[Bijo]

@Husar
Don't worry about it :)



I think based on the video he made between the shootings that he sent to NBC and the pictures found in his room, that the people here who are arguing that this guy is not a whack job can now remove their foot from their mouth
*steals tape and pictures* Video? Pictures? What are you talking about? :beam:

I actually would like to know if it's true that it was stated he was not a wacko, 'cause I didn't see any of that in this thread.

I *do* remember somebody saying it wasn't sure whether he was or wasn't one. There've been people saying he was, though the argumentation -- if there was any -- was unsound.

Either way, if he's crazy and it's fact, then the underlying reasons must be accurately put forth. And when we come to those reasons, we most likely will come to that thing mentioned a couple of times, plus maybe some other factors. Dig? :)

[Crazed Rabbit]

Good grief Goofball - you did see the part where it was the normal student with the gun who shouted and made the gunman drop his gun?


why would you not be willing to accept another anecdote such as the subject of this very thread (man kills 32 people with legally purchased firearms) that gun control is too lax?

That makes no sense - this happened despite gun control - despite the 'gun free zone' policy. This is a failure of gun control. What kind of philosophy sees the failure of something and wants more of it?

People here have been harping off about all their absurd assumptions about carrying pistols - and this proves so many wrong. The 'police' did not kill the defender, the two people defending themselves and others did not shoot each other, nor did they shoot any innocents.


They don't throw you in prison in Jamaica for having a gun , they throw you in prison if you have an unregistered gun and no firearms license or if you have a licence and registered gun but commit a crime .
Remember Rabbit , foriegn gun laws is not your stong suit .

So, you've been lurking this thread the whole time just to troll me on some small point like that?
Let me direct you here (http://www.merel.us/Joker/Cartoons/Toons1/images/Get%20a%20Life_gif.jpg).

Crazed Rabbit

[scooter_the_shooter]

Also anyone arguing for more gun control should realize it was against the law for this guy to have a gun. He was involuntary sent to a mental institution at one point. This should have blocked his purchase during the backround check. Someone messed up.


It's a sad situation all around.

[Major Robert Dump]

The ATF has no way of verifying the mental institution bit on a gun application, that question is done on the honor system, just like the other questions about domestic violence, dishounorable discharge, overhtrowing the government and medications.

I'm no gun grabber, but the form (its official name slips my mind) has always seemed a little bit ridiculous since the call they make to the ATF for the background check really only verifies whether or not you are a felon or have pending charges.

[Slyspy]

As per usual on any such argument here I'm put off by the devotees on both sides, whether it be the anti- or pro-gun group. Frankly if you feel that passionate about it then I can't really trust you to be honest and truthful now can I?

[Lemur]

I trust everyone has heard about the package (letter, DVD, lord knows what else) (http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18169776) that the shooter sent to NBC.

[edit]

Looks as though the shooter's father has committed suicide. (http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200704/200704180028.html) Waiting to see if this is confirmed by other sources.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Looks as though the shooter's father has committed suicide. (http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200704/200704180028.html) Waiting to see if this is confirmed by other sources.

I think this was shown to be false yesterday.

[Lemur]

Well, that's the last time I trust secondhand Japanese translation for my news.

Sasaki is quite right. (http://ktla.trb.com/news/ktla-chosparents,0,4860937.story?coll=ktla-news-2)

[KukriKhan]

Catagorically denied by Virgina State Police Spokeswoman Tuesday afternoon; "Untrue, Period.", I remember her saying twice. She also refused to reveal the parents' whereabouts, presumeably because she knew that info, because they're in protective custody. Sorry a link doesn't obtain; Google is jammed up with this story, and reaction, so tough to find that clip.

edit: Oops, cross-posted with Lemur.

[KukriKhan]

On the subject of thread maintenance: It's easy to see how "Gun Control in the US" can become a factor in this discussion of a mass killing. But because of its volatility, it deserves separate treatment, lest that discussion derail this one, about a still-breaking story.

Therefore, further contributions to this thread that do not directly pertain to the Virginia Tech incident, will be saved for benefit of the poster's possible future contribution to a gun-control thread... but deleted from public view in THIS thread.

We appreciate posters' cooperation. :bow:

[Azi Tohak]

~:mecry:

Everything I read or hear about this just makes me sad. Just a tragedy all around. I hope those who pray are praying for the families of those killed. And Cho's family too. I can't even imagine what they're going through.

Azi

[Sasaki Kojiro]

Heard about a doctor on tv saying that he though Cho was schizophrenic and that he'd seen patients who exhibited the same behavior become rational within a few days of taking medication, not even remembering their past state. That's pretty harsh, makes you feel sorry for him almost.

Interview with another doctor (http://abcnews.go.com/Health/VATech/story?id=3050483&page=1)


Or as fox news would have it:


When unexplained violence takes center stage, we tend to turn to modern psychology to explain it.

But there is an alternative explanation, one that has been played out in film, stage and writings since the beginning of history.

Was Cho Seung-Hui schizophrenic … psychotic … manic-depressive? Or were the shooting deaths of 32 people, including Cho himself, at Virginia Tech University part of the ongoing struggle between God and Satan … good against evil … lightness and darkness?

Could Cho have been possessed by the Devil? Could that explain the massacre at Virginia Tech?

Dr. Richard Roberts, president of Oral Roberts University, shouts an unequivocal “Yes!”

“Based on what I’ve seen in the news," Roberts said in an interview, "there’s no doubt that this act was Satanic in origin."

https://img133.imageshack.us/img133/5540/emothurrxq3.gif

[Lemur]

Everything I've heard certainly makes Cho sound like a paranoid schizophrenic. I have a relative who shares this condition, so I've seen it up-close, and I agree with what one commentator said: what he said doesn't matter, rather it's the tone and the incoherent paranoia that tells you what you need to know. His weird and contradictory religious references are also a tip-off.

It sure seems as though this was a case of an unmedicated schizophrenic who went off the deep end. Ugly bit of business.

[Adrian II]

@ Don Corleone Thank you for trying. :bow: But reason gets short short thrift in this thread. I guess it's impossible for some people to break out of their pro-gun or anti-gun mode and let in some daylight.

The numbers I linked to are just an indication of differences between countries. They justify no sweeping conclusion. These aggregate numbers tell you some societies are much more violent than others, which could be the starting point for analysis. Simple assumptions do not hold in this field. Countries with strict gun control like Russia, Jamaica and South Africa are up there, but culturally speaking there is very little that they have in common. Wealth is not a criterium either, as is obvious fom the list. Nor is the degree of glamourisation of violence. Japanese culture glamourises violence probably more than any other culture in the world, yet Japan is way down the list.

So where do you look for explanations? I have no ready-made answers. If I did, I'd start a lobby.. :laugh4:

[Tribesman]

So, you've been lurking this thread the whole time just to troll me on some small point like that?

Nope I have been following the topic and noticed that as usual some people will say things that are completely untrue to attempt to support their view .
Pointing out that a claim is not true is a strange definition of trolling .
Its quite simple , if your view needs untruths to support it then it isn't a very good view .

[KukriKhan]

Very well. No further posts in 6 hours. We'll close this thread, pending new developments, then possibly re-open.

Thanks to all contributors. :bow:

edit: Closing postponed, per request.

edit2: re-closed

[Bijo]

Hmmm... he might've been shizophrenic and/or paranoid, but just because an authority says so doesn't make it true. It's plausible, but not necessarily true. Yesterday night on CNN America -- what I think to be a POS channel -- they carefully and selectively took out pieces of the sent package / material and interviewed these two "specialists". It was all very manipulated and you could tell their only purpose was to make him sound like a wacko, as if they have a conclusion and then selectively take their arguments to prove it, instead of taking all the available evidence and then coming to a conclusion.
Then add in some dramatic images of the poor bastard where he's only wielding guns, where he's looking quite terrifying. And then add in some other dramatic pictures of hurt people and play a dramatic musical tune and other kinds of audio sub-conscious influence to which people are sensitive... show it in a dramatic almost art-like presentation, and you've got something looking like a dirty smear campaign rivalling politicians would envy.
[/critical]


• You have vandalized my heart, raped my soul and torched my conscience. You thought it was one pathetic boy’s life you were extinguishing. Thanks to you, I die like Jesus Christ, to inspire generations of the weak and the defenseless people.
Some would say he's crazy, and maybe he is, but I take it more serioiusly. Even if he appears crazy, it's about what he says which must be carefully thought about in any case and not just simply dismissed as "crazy".
If we look at this passage clearly somebody influenced him. Clearly he thinks he has been weakened by outer forces he could not control. In the news they mostly address -- again -- his "wackoness" and think they are done. No: I say investigate all of those students and find out what they're hiding, if they're hiding something. Humans of different ages, young, old, middle ages, etc., aren't much different in what they do: cruelty, and it is something to carefully consider. Obviously he's trying to show a message that he's been suffering because of people, and that there are others who are suffering because of people, his so-called brothers and sisters, the weak, who have nobody to go to probably.



• Do you know what it feels to be spit on your face and to have trash shoved down your throat? Do you know what it feels like to dig your own grave?
Do you know what it feels like to have throat slashed from ear to ear? Do you know what it feels like to be torched alive?
Do you know what it feels like to be humiliated and be impaled upon on a cross? And left to bleed to death for your amusement? You have never felt a single ounce of pain your whole life. Did you want to inject as much misery in our lives as you can just because you can?
He criticizes Christianity and Christians who know nothing of true pain but a lot about inflicting pain, probably. He most likely addresses the general cruelty and nature of man. I suspect his peers had something in on it, and inflicted pain onto him, and perhaps they are Christian and therefore he possibly criticizes Christianity and also sees himself as a suffering person, much like Jesus. He's saying it in a dramatized way.


• You had everything you wanted. Your Mercedes wasn’t enough, you brats. Your golden necklaces weren’t enough, you snobs. Your trust fund wasn’t enough. Your vodka and Cognac weren’t enough. All your debaucheries weren’t enough. Those weren’t enough to fulfill your hedonistic needs. You had everything.
Clearly he's referring to wealthy rich people, and probably his colleague students. And clearly he's being some kind of idealist as he criticizes hedonism, greed, egoism, etc. Combine this with the first quote about raping his sould, torching his heart, and you have another connection.


“You had a hundred billion chances and ways to have avoided today,” Cho says. “But you decided to spill my blood. You forced me into a corner and gave me only one option. The decision was yours. Now you have blood on your hands that will never wash off.”
Don't know he's exactly saying here, but with the above and all -- including the suspicious behaviour seen on TV from students -- I suspect he's referring to these students who are possibly hiding something and possibly the general picture of man who left and abandoned him.


But one thing caught my eye often there: those kids who plan shootings tell their peers and these peers don't take any action, nor are all of these kids listened to by elders. Peculiar, and in a certain way expectable.
Kids can be cruel human creatures and who knows what goes on in their minds regarding these killings, and how they all influence the whole shebang.


I think this is the right track we're on here speculating, though we still need those hard complete facts, background, etc.

For example I've heard on the Dutch news -- though very briefly explained -- that the poor bastard was avoided by classmates and such and exact reasons weren't given... but they said he didn't really like the Western student-like kind of "lawlessness" (for lack of a better translation).
But I also heard here about a possible background regarding a story he wrote (which is difficult to precisely, accurately, and logically analyze to this case).
Then I heard on CNN or maybe it was BBC World that his classmates tried to talk to him because he was always lonely. He just came to school and delivered his work, does his studying, and that's it.
And some of those interviewed students seemed too calm and some of them even smiled occasionally I noticed, even though it's not the time and situation to smile.

What can one make up out of that? Only speculative conclusions, but perhaps plausible ones? I suspect this guy was indeed a loner, was suffering badly, was perhaps somewhat of an ideologist, was alienated / attacked by his peers, and IF his written play actually shows any kind of "truth" to his background (which is still unclear, at least to me)... you got yourself a desperate person capable of committing a killing. But if these speculations are true, then what caused him to kill was society, therefore society would be the real "silent" killer.



One thing must be done: question everybody in the damn building. Severely question the students, and question that female teacher of theatre who was in the news who thought him weird and crazy while she's herself kind of "werird and crazy" -- though it might be fact she's an artistic person.