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Crazed Rabbit
04-19-2007, 19:31
A very good perspective on the likes of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and race in America.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/04/13/AR2007041302089_pf.html


Drop the Race Card

By Joe R. Hicks
Sunday, April 15, 2007; B01

Apologies were everywhere last week. And so was race.

Radio talk host Don Imus was a busy man, saying he was sorry whenever and wherever he could. As his drama unfolded, North Carolina prosecutor Michael B. Nifong was also trying to save his rapidly vaporizing career, issuing an apology to three young Duke University lacrosse players as the rape charges he had brought against them a year ago were dropped.

The apology strategies clearly didn't work: Imus lost his MSNBC cable show and his CBS daily radio show, while Nifong is facing charges that he engaged in serious prosecutorial misconduct, which could result in his disbarment.

Okay, these guys aren't deserving of much in the way of sympathy. But what links both cases is the rank racial opportunism in both Imus's firing and the Duke rape case, in which the Durham County district attorney shamelessly used race in an attempt to railroad three young men for his political purposes.

Remember the Michael Richards episode? In that case, America's civil rights establishment -- led, as usual, by Jesse Jackson and Al Sharpton -- mobilized in an effort to sell the premise that a down-on-his-luck comedian had somehow become a barometer for our nation's race relations. The former "Seinfeld" star had hurled the N-word at black hecklers during his routine. Civil rights leaders contended that this showed how prevalent racism is in our society. In full mea culpa mode, Richards went on Jackson's syndicated radio show and apologized profusely, but Jackson simply used it as an opportunity to trumpet, once again, his claim that racism is alive and well in this country.

What remains of the once-proud civil rights movement justifies its existence by contending -- despite widespread progress -- that black people continue to live marginalized and victimized lives. This oft-repeated theme was the base for the ugly stew that was the reaction to Imus's slur, and it was the operating theme for Nifong as he set about attempting to ruin the lives of three innocent men.

Several decades ago, when I was head of the Rev. Martin Luther King Jr.'s Southern Christian Leadership Conference, I would have joined with Jackson and Sharpton with little reservation to call for Imus's demise. But somewhere along the way since then, reality intervened and I began to reject the view that America is a racist, hostile environment for people with my skin color. Further, I began engaging in the unforgivable sin -- rejecting the orthodox civil rights view of blacks as victims.

The pattern of racial opportunism was well established by the time Imus offered his unsolicited comments about the Rutgers women's basketball team -- a team that recently competed in the NCAA championship game. In his usual gruff manner, Imus said that the players are a bunch of "nappy-headed hos." Let's stipulate that this was a bad idea, and that it was bad for the obvious reasons -- the team (not an all-black group, by the way) appears to be a collection of bright, articulate young women, undeserving of Imus's drive-by attack. It was also a bad idea because Imus, a veteran of politically incorrect commentary, must have known that such a comment was bound to draw attention from professional protesters such as Jackson and Sharpton.

Predictably -- like vultures awaiting the latest roadkill -- civil rights leaders began to clamor for Imus to be fired. To hell with sorry! The National Association of Black Journalists (I hate to be a pest, but shouldn't a group representing journalists take an objective stance?), along with Jackson, Sharpton and other black figures, turned aside Imus's repeated apologies. Protests were organized nationwide, often in front of CBS and NBC offices, and Imus took the risky step of appearing on Sharpton's radio show to ask forgiveness again, all for naught.

There is something surreal about someone like Imus prostrating himself before the likes of Jackson and Sharpton to save his job. The widespread assumption in corporate America is that these civil rights figures are "leaders" of the nation's black population. In reality, they have assumed this role through self-appointment and self-promotion. Polls have shown that only about 2 percent of blacks view Sharpton as their "leader." As Juan Williams pointed out in his book "Enough," when Sharpton ran for president in 2004, he couldn't muster enough votes to win a single primary and couldn't even carry his hometown of New York. Jackson also lost considerable luster in black communities after it was revealed that he fathered a child with one of his aides and it was alleged that he was "shaking down" corporate America for personal gain.

So, we are confronted with the specter of individuals who have little in the way of moral credibility, and have themselves made bigoted public comments (Jackson called New York "Hymietown" and Sharpton referred to Jews as "diamond merchants"), now presenting themselves as arbiters of public morality and good taste in broadcasting.Add to that the reality of today's hip-hop and gangsta rap CDs and videos, which commonly use bigoted, misogynistic lyrics that make the assault on Imus appear hypocritical in the extreme. The phrase "them's some nappy-headed hos" pales in comparison to rap lyrics that debase women and glorify the "thug life" in ways that trouble all but the most crass among us.

This is more than just a double standard; it is an agenda of racial opportunism that promotes the view that blacks are powerless victims of white racism. In this view, blacks are always in need of government intervention to save them from white hostility.

This is the view that Nifong exploited in his narrow quest for political survival.

As he prepared to run for reelection as Durham County district attorney last year, his victory was no sure thing. What elevated him from the pack of contenders was his aggressive stand on a developing case that was tailor-made for his purpose. An "exotic dancer" had said that she was raped after performing at a party thrown by members of the Duke lacrosse team. Because she is black and the three young men ultimately charged are white, the case soon became one of "racial justice." That, at least, was the view of the Durham County black community, which Nifong and the civil rights establishment soon exploited.

Throwing aside the principle of "innocent until proven guilty," Nifong campaigned hard in the black community, making it clear that he viewed the three men -- Reade Seligmann, Collin Finnerty and David Evans -- as guilty of the alleged rape, and referring to the Duke team as privileged "hooligans." This despite the fact that the accuser's own statements disqualified herfrom testifying under the state's legal definition of rape,that two DNA tests could not link the defendants to their accuser, a ndthat Nifong is now facing charges that he withheld evidence from the defendant's lawyers, made misrepresentations to a judge and made unethical statements about the case in public.

All of this appears to have been in the service of Nifong's relentless need to appease black voters and a civil rights establishment that was calling for the defendants' heads to be delivered on a platter. But guilt for this attempted railroading must also be borne by the "progressive" political elements within the Duke University community who called for a full-speed-ahead prosecution -- damn the evidence. The jury to which Nifong played was the black community of Durham. This strategy worked; he was reelected. But the case has come undone, because of Nifong's own misbehavior and because of the dancer herself, whose ever-shifting stories and questionable past undermined her credibility. North Carolina Attorney General Roy Cooper said that the case was "a result of a tragic rush to accuse and failure to verify serious allegations."

While justice was finally served in the Duke case, what was accomplished by Imus's firing? Jackson and Sharpton may have gained another notch on their civil rights belts, and an over-the-hill shock jock is standing in the unemployment line, but the plight of black urban communities remains untouched. Poor parenting is still taking place, cultural rot is still afflicting the lives of black urban dwellers, disproportionate fatherlessness is still a reality, and bad schools as well as high levels of crime are still facts of black urban life everywhere.

It's easy to tackle a doddering old radio show host who has said something patently stupid. But it's far more challenging to address things that are real problems for real people. Most urban dwellers couldn't have picked Imus out of a lineup if their life depended on it. It's no wonder that some critics, like me, argue that figures such as Jackson and Sharpton, among others of their ilk, are dinosaurs fighting only to maintain a patina of relevance.

As comedian Bill Cosby has observed: "There are people that want you to remain in a hole, and they rejoice in your hopelessness because they have jobs mismanaging you. However, your job is not becoming victims. We have to rise up and fight on all levels to succeed." Amen, brother Cosby.

Crazed Rabbit

Sasaki Kojiro
04-19-2007, 19:39
A very good perspective on the likes of Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and race in America.

Fixed.

Reenk Roink
04-19-2007, 22:04
Most people at my school who pushed for Proposal 2 (anti-affirmative action) did it under this slogan: "Equality".

Of course, most of those people who so zealously cried "Equality" against Affirmative Action (which I agree is a contradiction with equality) never cared about the terrible implicit racism that exists in our society.

They went out and protested against a black kid getting into school because of his race, but they didn't protest against a black man not getting a job because of his race, even though the latter happens much more often.

I don't know how much money the Proposal 2 supporters poured into the campaign, but I'm willing to bet it was a hell of a lot more than the Stop Racism campaign.

Joe Hicks reminds me of these people.

Technically, he is right when he cries for equality, but he can only do this by focusing on one, convenient, part of the picture...

We should drop the race card Joe, thanks for your creative energies in writing this article, but don't you think you should invest more of your rhetorical flair on the much more significant problem of implicit racism?

Don Corleone
04-19-2007, 22:12
Well, Reenk, I cannot argue with you. But the right answer to discrimination is to solve it when and where it does occur, not to create new discrimination in the hopes that it somehow counteracts the affects of the first batch. If a black man isn't getting a job because of his race, your local OEC isn't doing it's job. All the Affirmative Action in the world isn't going to solve that.

Marshal Murat
04-19-2007, 23:03
Blacks need to step up and grab the reins of a better future.
Denouncing the gangstas and rappers who make every African-American a gang-member.
Not looking for racism in life. Not seeking out 'oh, the car dealer gave a terrible deal because I'm black!' when the car you just bought would have cost about that much or more!

However, the cherry-picking doesn't address some problems. Then again, it's in the person's edjumacation Education

Bijo
04-19-2007, 23:08
[...]edjumacation Education


LOL :laugh4:


Eh-- to add something myself to the topic: blacks, whites, asians, indians, jews, aliens, whatever... we're all human. Well, except for aliens if they were here of course :P but I wouldn't mind either.

Lord Winter
04-19-2007, 23:55
The problem with discreemnation is that it depends to much on the subject. While one black man may not be given a job because of racism another could not be given because their is a more valid canidate who may happen to be white, asian, hispanic ect...

Its a fine line and sometimes over zealously applied.

ShadeHonestus
04-20-2007, 00:46
Back in the day when applying for college scholarships here in the U.S., there was a total lack of anything of substance. However a friend of mine who could claim Hispanic, African American, and Asian at his own discretion had many options. In fact, go pick up one of those 3000000000 scholarship books at any bookstore near you and tell me how many of those are offered to you if you happen to be a white male. Despite our similar economic backgrounds and situations we both emerged from college unscathed, although one of us managed a student loan debt despite his time served in the U.S. Military.

/sarcasm
I want reparations
/sarcasm off


[edit]

I almost forgot the best part of this story. When he was contesting for a professorship a few years ago and despite having a superior academic background glowing reviews from around academia, he lost the position in the name of diversity too..... a lesbian from India. The reason for the hiring wasn't kept too much of a secret.

doc_bean
04-21-2007, 13:35
It has to be avoided that something like a 'victim class' is created, we are all people.

Yes racism is real and should be fought but equality should be the norm. I'm in favour of a little AA, but things like that tend to go overboard. It is imo much better to support a social group (poor people, inner city kids, country folkes, whatever...) than to support a race. The focus is all wrong.

TevashSzat
04-21-2007, 18:43
America in general, is very non racist now if compared to other countries where racism is incedibly pervasive among the population. IMO, the minorities who cry racism at every minute remark should focus on improving their minority group instead of thinking that everyone is out to get them

Tuuvi
04-24-2007, 01:14
I think the best way to get rid of racism is to stop classifying people into groups and minorities. It seems to me like all the "anti racists" just create more racism by doing just that.

Xiahou
04-24-2007, 01:20
In some potential good news:

link (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20070423/music_nm/usa_hiphop_dc) from Reuters.

Let's hope Simmons still has some influence in the music world when it comes to this. :yes:

Major Robert Dump
04-24-2007, 14:25
[QUOTE=Reenk Roink]They went out and protested against a black kid getting into school because of his race, but they didn't protest against a black man not getting a job because of his race, even though the latter happens much more often.

QUOTE]


First, you cannot prove that black men don't get jobs because of their race more often than black kids get into college. Oh sure, black men don't get hired -- for various reasons, which may include being black -- but you simply cannot prove what you are saying here.

And second, people aren't uppity because black kids are getting into college, people are uppity because another kid who was more qualified did not get in so the black kid could. Browse over the statistics of how the racial distribution changed after AA was stopped at unis, and also note that the minority graduation rate skyrocketed.

There's a college on every freaking corner anymore. AA at universities is not needed, but thats another thread.

The posted article was amusing. What will be even more amusing is that Imus will have a show on satellite radio, with more listeners and more income right into his pocket because he doesn't have a network skimming from the ad revenue. And he will say whatever he wants.

And the high profile race baiters will move onto the next crusade while all the people who buy into their :daisy: will continue on, leading lives as professional victims, looking for someone else to blame because they don't understand that you have to grab success and happiness by the horns, not wait for a magical, hypocrytical equality fairy to float down and give it to you.

Reenk Roink
04-24-2007, 20:21
First, you cannot prove that black men don't get jobs because of their race more often than black kids get into college. Oh sure, black men don't get hired -- for various reasons, which may include being black -- but you simply cannot prove what you are saying here.

And second, people aren't uppity because black kids are getting into college, people are uppity because another kid who was more qualified did not get in so the black kid could. Browse over the statistics of how the racial distribution changed after AA was stopped at unis, and also note that the minority graduation rate skyrocketed.

There's a college on every freaking corner anymore. AA at universities is not needed, but thats another thread.

The posted article was amusing. What will be even more amusing is that Imus will have a show on satellite radio, with more listeners and more income right into his pocket because he doesn't have a network skimming from the ad revenue. And he will say whatever he wants.

And the high profile race baiters will move onto the next crusade while all the people who buy into their :daisy: will continue on, leading lives as professional victims, looking for someone else to blame because they don't understand that you have to grab success and happiness by the horns, not wait for a magical, hypocrytical equality fairy to float down and give it to you.

Blah blah blah, everything besides the first paragraph of your post is irrelevant, off topic, ranting that makes me regret I even bothered to waste a few seconds skimming it.

I've already said I don't like Affirmative Action, it's just I don't see it as much of a problem as implicit racism.

Your statement of "First, you cannot prove that black men don't get jobs because of their race more often than black kids get into college. Oh sure, black men don't get hired -- for various reasons, which may include being black -- but you simply cannot prove what you are saying here." is worth refuting though.

Please, go and search for some studies where people have sent identical resumes to companies with only a difference in names (Kaitlyn vs Keisha) results in some statistically significant differences in who gets hired or not.

There was this documentary I watched in a Psych class where a black guy and a white guy coming from similar backgrounds (same college/same degree) went around in St. Louis for a bit undercover, gauging the implicit racism.

Some finds:

The white and black guy are walking through the same street at night only separated by 300 feet or so. A Po-Po driving down ignores the white guy, but clearly slows down when he sees the black guy, giving him a better look. Some racist *** drives up to the black guy and says something to the like of "wrong neighborhood".

The white and black guy go to the same car dealership on the same day with the same salesman. The white guy gets a price on a used car from the salesman. The black guy goes in 2 hours later and asks about the same car (after being ignored for 10 minutes even though the undercover camera gives a nice shot of the salesman looking at the guy drinking his coffee). His price offered is $1000 higher. It's very funny when the documentary lady comes out and confronts the racist car salesman.

The white and black guy then go and inquire about a job at a dry cleaning place. The white guy is told that they are hiring and requested to fill out a form. The black guy is told that they are not hiring. "I don't know anything about a job" says the same lady...

I think that's proof enough, but hey, I understand that ignorance is bliss, and if one keeps their head buried in their magical, fairyland tushy, they can convince themselves that this doesn't exist and the white man is the real victim of racism and the "race card"... :rolleyes:

Major Robert Dump
04-24-2007, 20:34
That still doesn't prove that anti-black job discrimination happens more often than black kids get into college.

Crazed Rabbit
04-24-2007, 20:46
Blah blah blah,

Data is not the plural of anecdote.

And don't bring up this 'implicit' or 'institutional racism' :daisy:. If a salesman is racist to someone, that only means that that salesman is racist. It means nothing else.

Crazed Rabbit

Xiahou
04-24-2007, 21:49
Data is not the plural of anecdote.

And don't bring up this 'implicit' or 'institutional racism' :daisy:. If a salesman is racist to someone, that only means that that salesman is racist. It means nothing else.

Crazed Rabbit
Indeed. I fail to see a few anecdotal cases cherry-picked for a documentary to be evidence of pervasive racism. There are certainly racist people, but I don't think it's societally endemic.

Reenk Roink
04-25-2007, 00:56
It's interesting how easily I expected which posters would respond and exactly how they would respond. :rolleyes:

Yes Rabbit, anecdotal evidence isn't hard data. That's why we have absolutely no reason to believe that the sun will rise in the future coming from a purely logical background. It's built on anecdotes.

Of course, I've never seen you cast such skeptical doubts on that before. Nor have I seen you cast skeptical doubts on other issues relying on anecdotes. A bit pick and choose are we? :yes:

Ignoring the documentary (which is so suggestive of the reality), explain away the statistically significant difference in the resume scenario?

I don't think that tired old line of "anecdotal evidence is not data" (so arbitrarily applied as well) applies to this.

Of course, you may cast your skeptical doubts on the good old stats itself as well, a la Lancet (though I've never seen the cluster method doubted when it came to natural disasters), but then it just goes on to show more of the same pick and choose blinders some choose to put on.

Finally, I'll bring up my ":daisy:" because frankly, it smells a whole lot better than Joe Hicks'.

Xiahou
04-25-2007, 03:11
Of course, you may cast your skeptical doubts on the good old stats itself as well, a la Lancet (though I've never seen the cluster method doubted when it came to natural disasters), but then it just goes on to show more of the same pick and choose blinders some choose to put on.
If a study is BS, I'm all too happy to call it like it is. Just because someone with an agenda wraps their position in shoddy statistics doesn't mean we have no choice but to sit there and swallow it wholesale. Nice attempt at poisoning the well though. :2thumbsup:

Crazed Rabbit
04-25-2007, 03:15
That's why we have absolutely no reason to believe that the sun will rise in the future coming from a purely logical background. It's built on anecdotes.

Right. Anecdotes, not the fact that it has happened without ceasing for billions of years.


Ignoring the documentary (which is so suggestive of the reality), explain away the statistically significant difference in the resume scenario?

Glad you've dropped the 'documentary'. As for the statistical study - I'd need more info for that. Care to provide some links?


Finally, I'll bring up my ":daisy:" because frankly, it smells a whole lot better than Joe Hicks'.

Oh really? I suppose you think we should listen to people like Sharpton then, and continue to endorse the use of the 'race card' and victimization culture.

I find it funny you really couldn't support your argument.

CR

Redleg
04-25-2007, 03:22
It's interesting how easily I expected which posters would respond and exactly how they would respond. :rolleyes:

Yes Rabbit, anecdotal evidence isn't hard data. That's why we have absolutely no reason to believe that the sun will rise in the future coming from a purely logical background. It's built on anecdotes.

Of course, I've never seen you cast such skeptical doubts on that before. Nor have I seen you cast skeptical doubts on other issues relying on anecdotes. A bit pick and choose are we? :yes:

Ignoring the documentary (which is so suggestive of the reality), explain away the statistically significant difference in the resume scenario?

I don't think that tired old line of "anecdotal evidence is not data" (so arbitrarily applied as well) applies to this.

Of course, you may cast your skeptical doubts on the good old stats itself as well, a la Lancet (though I've never seen the cluster method doubted when it came to natural disasters), but then it just goes on to show more of the same pick and choose blinders some choose to put on.

Finally, I'll bring up my ":daisy:" because frankly, it smells a whole lot better than Joe Hicks'.

So let me attempt to get what you are attempting to state. Because I am white I am more likely to be prejudice against a black man?

Since I have hired about 10 people in my previous job - care to account for the ancedotal evidence that is factual in relation to my hiring of people.

2 Hispanic Males
2 Black Females
2 White Women
1 Black Male
1 Asian Male
2 White Males

Now where is the institutional racism in that given that at the time that I was hiring in Dallas the population was about 20-25% Hispanic, 15-20% Black, less then 10% other, and the rest white. I won't add age to the equation but that is also another measure that is used.

Sasaki Kojiro
04-25-2007, 04:46
Data is not the plural of anecdote.

And don't bring up this 'implicit' or 'institutional racism' :daisy:. If a salesman is racist to someone, that only means that that salesman is racist. It means nothing else.

Crazed Rabbit

Where's your data?

Crazed Rabbit
04-25-2007, 05:25
My position does not rest on my data, but the lack of Reenk's. Right now he has no proof.

Should he wish to assert there is institutional racism, I'd like to see some statistical proof, not anecdotes.

CR

Sasaki Kojiro
04-25-2007, 05:38
You suggest that in America the burden of proof is on those claiming that there is racism?

Crazed Rabbit
04-25-2007, 06:13
I'm saying that there are certainly racists in America. But these individual racists do not, by themselves, make 'institutional racism', especially with the scorn that is heaped on them.

Now, if Reenk wants to say implicit racism is more of a problem than Al Sharpton and similar people, he'd better provide some proof.

CR

Sasaki Kojiro
04-25-2007, 07:01
Well, if there are a certain number of these racists who make job hiring decisions then how is that different?

Csargo
04-25-2007, 07:59
Most people are racist to some extent.

Banquo's Ghost
04-25-2007, 10:09
Gentlemen,

Might we lay off the poor language choices in this discussion as my daisy smiley is becoming tired?

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

Redleg
04-25-2007, 11:55
Some need to check out what Geoffrey Canada had to say about the music industry and the stop snitching aspect that many gangester rappers advocate.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/04/19/60minutes/main2704565.shtml?source=RSSattr=HOME_2704565