Canadian Journalist Attacked by Muslims

[Crazed Rabbit]

For criticizing an Islamic organization. (http://www.mediainfo.com/eandp/departments/newsroom/article_display.jsp?vnu_content_id=1003574052) Will be interesting to see if and how the media at large reacts to this assault on free speech.


Islamic Fanatics Beat Journo in Canada

By E&P Staff

Published: April 19, 2007 2:10 PM ET

CHICAGO A journalist for the Mississauga, Ont.-based newspaper The Pakistan Post was assaulted by two men, one armed with a cricket bat, who warned him to stop "writing against Islam" and a Pakistan-based religious organization, the Canadian Journalists for Free Expression (CJFE) reported Thursday.

Journalist Jawaad Faizi was attacked on the evening of April 17 while sitting in his car outside the home of the newspaper's editor, Amir Arain. The two men smashed the car windows, and repeatedly hit Faizi. They fled when they saw him call 911 on his cell phone.

During the attack, Faizi said, the men told him to stop writing critically of the religious organization Idara Minhaj-ul-Quran and its leader, Cleric Allama Tahir-Ul-Qadri. Allama Tahir-Ul-Qadri is a frequent visitor to Canada, CJFE said.

The attack followed telephoned threats to Faizi and Arain. The night before the attack, the two filed a complaint with the police, also reporting threats they received in January.

"That this attack happened here in Canada is of great concern to us," said CJFE Executive Director Anne Game. "We call on the police to treat this matter extremely seriously and ensure that a full investigation into the attack is initiated immediately."

Faizi had to be treated in the hospital for injuries to his left arm, and lost two days of work. Wednesday, the vice principal of the school his three children attend asked him to keep them at home, saying they may be a security risk, CJFE reported.

"I had so many problems back home [in Lahore, Pakistan] as a journalist, but I'm shocked that this is happening here," Faizi told CJFE.

"This is a cautionary tale for us, and points to the need for vigilance in the protection of press freedom not just in other countries, but in Canada as well," a statement from CJFE said.

CR

[Banquo's Ghost]

Journalist beaten up by people who disagree with his commentary.

Shock. Horror. End of Civilisation TM.

~:rolleyes:

[Blodrast]

Way to oversimplify the issue and ignore the point, BG. Do you really fail to see a pattern here, or you just don't wanna see another thread potentially touching on very sensitive issues ?
And when I say pattern, I mean, for instance, this thread (http://https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=83667).
That's the problem, not the fact that another journalist has been attacked by people who disagree with his commentary...

[Crazed Rabbit]

Journalist beaten up by people who disagree with his commentary.

Shock. Horror. End of Civilisation TM.

~:rolleyes:

Yay, cause that happens all the time when Canadian journalists criticize other things, like Victoria's sewer system.

:rolleyes:

Let's bury our heads a bit deeper in the sand, shall we?

CR

[Banquo's Ghost]

Dear God, do I really have to dredge up a million articles where a journalist has been attacked by groups other than Muslims?

The only trend here is to demonise Muslims because a few fanatics despise being exposed. Lots and lots of other nutters do the same.

So I ask myself, what's the agenda for highlighting this particular example?

[Crazed Rabbit]

I personally don't recall a million other examples where a journalist is attacked for any reason. I recall one radio guy getting shot after criticizing the mob. And all those journalists getting kidnapped and/or beheaded by other Muslims. But I don't remember any examples of Christians or Hindus or Buddhists physically beating up and assaulting a journalist for criticizing a religious organization.

Heck, even that despicable westboro baptist group doesn't use physical violence.

You're missing the point, BG. These guys apparently think it's okay to use violence to intimidate those who don't agree with their religion, and to silence those who criticize them. And this is occurring in a traditionally free and open country. Since they were trying to 'defend' a certain Islamic group, it might be that said group approves of such tactics.

When those people live and operate increasingly in a country like Canada, shouldn't something be done about it? Or should we just ignore it because it's politically incorrect to criticize it?

CR

[Meneldil]

But I don't remember any examples of Christians or Hindus or Buddhists physically beating up and assaulting a journalist for criticizing a religious organization.
CR

Happens in France. I recall reading about a journalist being beaten up by some of our own catholic extremists from Britanny.

And I'm fairly sure going around criticizing the Hinduist religion in India will get you in a lot of trouble, wether you're journalist or not.

Now, I agree with both of you, these people should receive an exemplary punishment, but pointing at muslim as if they were the only people beating up journalist is just demonising AFAIK.

[Banquo's Ghost]

You're missing the point, BG. These guys apparently think it's okay to use violence to intimidate those who don't agree with their religion, and to silence those who criticize them. And this is occurring in a traditionally free and open country. Since they were trying to 'defend' a certain Islamic group, it might be that said group approves of such tactics.

When those people live and operate increasingly in a country like Canada, shouldn't something be done about it? Or should we just ignore it because it's politically incorrect to criticize it?

Maybe I am missing your point. As far as I can see, many groups use violence to intimidate journalists and silence criticism. Neo-nazis through to animal rights activists. Occasionally policemen and government agents. And in traditionally free and open countries.

When they do this, the force of law is brought to bear on them. That's what is, or should be, done.

It's not politically incorrect to criticise the violence used to intimidate the journalist, and I deplore it. I hope the perpetrators are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. "Something should be done" to reduce the influence of all fanatics who resort to violence.

However, what I also deplore is the apparent attempt to indicate that this behaviour is somehow characteristic only of Muslims.

[Tribesman]

I personally don't recall a million other examples where a journalist is attacked for any reason.
Maybe when you are older or have read a bit more you will .

Anyhow bloody amatuers , a cricket bat FFS .
what you do when a reporter keeps upsetting you and won't be intimidated by threats is simply to blow their brains out while they are stuck in traffic and make a getaway on bike .
Hey they could make a film about that :idea2: , burning the house down is another good one , kidnap the kids , bomb their car , arrest them on trumped up charges , these muppets in this attack are just so gentlemanly with their cricket bat:dizzy2:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Hey they could make a film about that :idea2: , burning the house down is another good one , kidnap the kids , bomb their car , arrest them on trumped up charges , these muppets in this attack are just so gentlemanly with their cricket bat:dizzy2:

Hey, after the World Cup debacle, I'm amazed any Pakistani would dare be seen with a cricket bat. :bounce:

[Don Corleone]

Is Tribesman referencing the Veronica Guerrin incident talking about blowing somebody's brains out when stopped at a traffic light, then riding off on a motor bike?

[Tribesman]

Hey, after the World Cup debacle, I'm amazed any Pakistani would dare be seen with a cricket bat.

Naughty Banquo :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


Is Tribesman referencing the Veronica Guerrin incident talking about blowing somebody's brains out when stopped at a traffic light, then riding off on a motor bike?
Damn , there goes my idea for a film , someone beat me to it .

[Vuk]

lmao, I think BG just doesn't want a "touchy" thread, because then he'd have to do his job! lol
Say what you like BG, but there IS a pattern. The islamic religion teaches hate and intolerance. They do not allow anyone to say anything that they disagree with (sound familiar BG?). If you think that I am just bashing a religion, and not telling the absolute truth, I could come up with 70 million news articles and quotes from the koran that prove what I am saying.

Allow me to explain further. I am not saying that the people who follow islam are at fault, but quite the opposite! I am saying that islam is at fault. All religions have had wackos that do mental things in the name of their religion, so you cannot judge a religion by the attrocities comitted by the wackos of an era. What you CAN judge a religion by (and yes, I think that judging is important here) is the "holy" books on which it is based (after all, this IS the religion. Religions regulate a way of life and inspire a set of beliefs. These ways of life and beliefs are taken directly from the "holy" books), and by a predominant, continuing trend throughout centuries. Judging islam by those criteria yields the conclusion that islam is a religion of hate, of war, of intolerance, and of violence. (We will leave morality out of this discussion :P)

The religion of islam started out as...AN ARMY!! It was formed, and the koran was based on the writings of one of the most violent, perverse men in history! It is the most intolerant religion in the world!! It condemns ALL other religions (except, it is funny, that it had EXTREMELY good relations with jews when first invented. Kind of ironic...), all other races except, arabic, turk, and indian (yes, again, rather ironically, it condemns blacks as well), it condemns WOMEN!!!

The "islamic nation" has committed more, and larger, more filthy genocides than anyone else in the world!!! Even more than Stalin!!! (who WAY out-did Hitler!)

Muslims in todays society are calling for an over-throw from within of Western nations! The have raped, killed, enslaved, and persecuted all they have conquered! (which includes much of Europe, till the West declared the Crusades in responce and finally weakened them enough to blunt the offensive...Yes, that is right, the Crusades were in responce to centuries of muslim conquest.)

I'll be back online Monday and will be perfectly willing to prove ANYTHING I said that you may think untrue, unreasonable, unfounded, or slanderous. One request? Think before you post and do not flood me with responces to answer. ;)
Hope that will give you something to think of,

Vuk

[Blodrast]

(somewhat directed as a reply to BG, Meneldil): Eh, yes, of course you may end up in trouble if you criticize Hinduism in India, or Islam in Saudi Arabia, but you're comparing apples and oranges. I would not be in the least surprised if said journalist had gotten in trouble in Pakistan (as he himself pointed out), but, last time I checked, Canada was not a hardcore fundamentalist Muslim country.

And there's no need to be condescending, Tribesy.

While of course we all agree journalists have been aggressed by any possible groups, since the beginnings of journalism, that doesn't mean there aren't differences in the number of aggressions, in trends, in causes and implications - the cases are not all the same.
One of the reasons this is more troubling than your "average" journalist-got-beaten-by-some-crazies is that, traditionally, in Canada, journalists weren't attacked for criticizing Muslim figures.

[Suraknar]

The fact that the Journalist is of Pakistani Origin plays a factor here too.

Because if he was in Pakistan he would probably not be publishing his critisism, and from the point of view of his assaillants.

Now, that in no way means that one should condone the actions but the finger should not be pointed directly towards the majority of muslims either.

And yes there have been many instances where journalists, book writters, etc have been attacked because of their opinions, and by all kinds of different religeous convictions.

Fanatisism is not only a muslim plague.

[Vuk]

Exactly, wackos under all banners do bad things, but violence is a characteristic of islam.
Well, I have to go now. I will be back Monday.

Vuk

[ajaxfetish]

If you think that I am just bashing a religion, and not telling the absolute truth, I could come up with 70 million news articles and quotes from the koran that prove what I am saying.
You make this offer, Vuk, yet I can't think of a single time I've seen you link reliable sources to support your arguments, for all the times you assert the evidence is overwhelmingly in your favor. I often find myself agreeing with positions you support, at least up to a point, but your method usually seems to me very irresponsible in terms of rational argument.


Judging islam by those criteria yields the conclusion that islam is a religion of hate, of war, of intolerance, and of violence. (We will leave morality out of this discussion :P)
We've had this discussion before. Islam contains elements of both war and peace in its holy books, as does Christianity, or Judaism. You have not convinced me that there is a qualitative difference between these religions in this regard.


Yes, that is right, the Crusades were in responce to centuries of muslim conquest.)

Here's one of the places where I definitely agree with you, though in practice the crusades certainly included plenty of unsavory elements, on both sides.

Ajax

[Adrian II]

Banquo's Ghost is right that this sort of thing happens all the time to journalists for a thousand different reasons, perpetrated by a thousand different actors: sick individuals, companies, unions, corrupt political parties and movements, crooked cops, drug and arms dealers, you name it.

Yet the Rabbit has a point. This sort of attack on a Muslim (or someone of Muslim origin) by other Muslims on grounds of 'apostasy' is symptomatic of the internal violence in Muslim communities all over the western world. These acts (or threats) have been plaguing independent authors and activists from the Muslim community in Canada for years, just as they have in the rest of the western world. Just look into the case of Farzan Hassan and the Muslim Canadian Congress, an organization that fights for the separation of mosque and state and for womens rights.

Muslim women and young urban intellectuals in particular are targeted. The thought that Muslim women and intellectuals free themselves from the constraints of their religion is very threatening to the leaders of those communities. Why? Because they are role models for others who would like to distance themselves from these communities, steeped as they are in coercion, obscurantism and fear - fear of the surrounding culture and fear of the leaders of their Muslim community.

[Geoffrey S]

Might be worth pointing out that pinning this a double standard, at least. The attacked journalist is also of Islamic origins.

[Tribesman]

Yet the Rabbit has a point.
Yep , without a doubt .
However when you get stuff like.........

I personally don't recall a million other examples where a journalist is attacked for any reason. I recall one radio guy getting shot after criticizing the mob. And all those journalists getting kidnapped and/or beheaded by other Muslims. But I don't remember any examples of Christians or Hindus or Buddhists physically beating up and assaulting a journalist for criticizing a religious organization.
....you have to wonder both what is the point he thinks he has is and how he reached it .

[AntiochusIII]

I seem to recall some people distinctly proclaim, with much zeal by the way, that all the racism is the same, all the hate crimes are the same, and one shouldn't highlight a specific crime as somehow discriminatingly more important than others.

...may be I just have a faulty memory? :balloon:

Of course I agree that the Muslim community is in conflict with itself -- who doesn't? -- and the free society ought to do as much as possible to protect, aid, and encourage those who dare challenge the traditional community leaders' influence, such as this unfortunate journalist. It is in everyone's best interest after all to prevent the segregation of cultures from becoming (or remaining) institutionalized in some form.

But the way this news is portrayed here is really just another attack on Teh Muslims. :juggle2:

[JimBob]

Lets take a moment and believe some people that Islam is naturally evil. What do you propose to do about it? Nuke the Middle East. Outlaw the religion. Or just pass some laws that ban those Islams from doing things that good civilized Christian Westerners do.

[Adrian II]

...you have to wonder both what is the point he thinks he has is and how he reached it.He must have partaken of the same strong Dutch hashish that poor Vuk is on. Teh rapes! Teh genocides! :laugh4:

Seriously, Vuk - I managed to dig out a point in what Crazed Rabbit said, now don't spoil the effect by getting the thread locked.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Adrian, I thought Dutch Hash was supposed to be the high quality not-psyochosis stuff. Ah well.

Anyway, Islam is not alone in being hardline and intollerant of other viewpoints. If anything Christianity is the exception here. Did anyone else here about Richard Gere's recent death threats?

[Louis VI the Fat]

What's up with all that talk about Crazed Rabbit's 'hidden agenda' ?

As far as I know, he's been quite open and consistent in his posts and agenda: if only all Muslims were equipped with cricket bats none of this would've happened. But no, those liberal Canucks needed 'restrictions'.


But seriously: yes, Banquo's Ghost is right that reporting can be a dangerous job within any culture (http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=14894).

Yet, to make this a totally redundant near word-by-word repeat of Adrian's post, the Rabbit has a point. Apostasy is dangerous for a Muslim, much more so than for other religions (that I know of and have a relatively large amount of followers in the West). Ask Hirsi Aly. As to critising Islam...I would suggest you ask Van Gogh about it, but you couldn't.

This is understood so well and to such an extent that now self-censorship has become a problem. Under Muslim intimidation - real or imagined - movies and plays are not shown and books and articles remain unpublished. :shame:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Maybe when you are older or have read a bit more you will .

You can recall a million separate incidents of journalists being beat up? Truly, you have an inconceivably gifted memory.

I do recall one house bombing in Spain.


However, what I also deplore is the apparent attempt to indicate that this behaviour is somehow characteristic only of Muslims.

No need to deplore that which isn't there.

Some others have picked out important points: this is rather new incident in Canada. Canada, I'm sure you know, is not a country with a high percentage of Muslims, but fundamentalism is spreading from traditional countries (S.Arabia) to the west.

Should we ignore the struggle between moderate and fundamentalist in the Muslim community? We all want the moderates to prevail, right? This spreading of fundamentalism threatens free speech and other freedoms.



As far as I can see, many groups use violence to intimidate journalists and silence criticism. Neo-nazis through to animal rights activists. Occasionally policemen and government agents. And in traditionally free and open countries.

And these people and their methods are criticized, heavily. But will we see a denunciation of these tactics used by Muslims to suppress those they disagree with, or will people play this facet of conflict between fundamentalist suppressing moderate as nothing important?

Crazed Rabbit

[Adrian II]

As far as I know, he's been quite open and consistent in his posts and agenda: if only all Muslims were equipped with cricket bats none of this would've happened. But no, those liberal Canucks needed 'restrictions'.God, you are horrible.. :beam:

I think the urge of Muslim leaders in the West to control their 'own' communities is demonstrated most clearly by their demand to be allowed to apply sharia law in their 'constituencies'. Canada seems to have had some experience with his, in the sense that these sharia courts are used to suppress mostly immigrant women who don't speak the language of the host country, who don't know their rights, etcetera. Such courts operate in secret, no records are kept, and verdicts are reached by judges who have difficulty counting to ten and writing their own names. Not a huge success, I believe.

Swedish Muslim leaders have demanded the same sort of sharia juridisdiction, but were treated to a loud and clear 'No' from the government.

[Louis VI the Fat]

God, you are horrible.. People hate my guts in real life too. :beam:

[Tribesman]

:dizzy2:

[PanzerJaeger]

Typical of the group and typical responses from .org members. ~:rolleyes:

If only teh muslims would stick to beating and killing each other, the civilized world would be a far better place. :2thumbsup:

[Banquo's Ghost]

This thread has been re-opened thanks to requests from the OP.

It has all the making of an interesting discussion and there have been some good contributions.

Please ensure that posts stick to the topic. Please bear in mind the sensitivities and beliefs of other members. Try to avoid one-dimensional generalisations.

You all know the rules, and the standards of debate that we aspire to here. I won't hesistate to hand out serious warning points to trolls who think they are being clever.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[Banquo's Ghost]

Bumped so that it is clear the thread is open again.

:bump:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Thanks, BG!


This is understood so well and to such an extent that now self-censorship has become a problem. Under Muslim intimidation - real or imagined - movies and plays are not shown and books and articles remain unpublished.

That is important. Freedom of speech needs to be cherished. Giving it up to be kind to some group is as bad as having it taken by that group.


I think the urge of Muslim leaders in the West to control their 'own' communities is demonstrated most clearly by their demand to be allowed to apply sharia law in their 'constituencies'. Canada seems to have had some experience with his, in the sense that these sharia courts are used to suppress mostly immigrant women who don't speak the language of the host country, who don't know their rights, etcetera. Such courts operate in secret, no records are kept, and verdicts are reached by judges who have difficulty counting to ten and writing their own names. Not a huge success, I believe.

Swedish Muslim leaders have demanded the same sort of sharia juridisdiction, but were treated to a loud and clear 'No' from the government.

That's interesting (and disturbing). Do you have any sources on that? To me, it seems like stopping the spread of Sharia law and insuring immigrants integrate into the justice system is an essential factor.

CR

[Ignoramus]

May I just record my disapproval of the moderators' actions in deleting Vuk's posts?

They were direct quotes from the Koran, and if Muslims get offended by their own Koran, well then that's hypocritical.

That's all, thank you.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Look, if he wants a thread about that, let him make his own thread. I don't want this thread to be dragged off-topic.

CR

[Reenk Roink]

Dear God, do I really have to dredge up a million articles where a journalist has been attacked by groups other than Muslims?

The only trend here is to demonise Muslims because a few fanatics despise being exposed. Lots and lots of other nutters do the same.

So I ask myself, what's the agenda for highlighting this particular example?

Banquo, as a believer that the sun will rise tomorrow due to the fact that it has risen in the past, you shouldn't be surprised by this. :beam:

After all, the Backroom topics are nothing but cycles coming in waves. There really is nothing new, aside from a different incident which puts up the same old themes.

After all Banquo, it is not hypocrisy or an attempt to turn universities into Jewish institutions when colleges have Kosher food specially prepared for their Jewish students, but when a foot washing thingy is announced, it certainly is hypocrisy and an attempt to turn colleges into an Islamic institution.

When a crazy man goes at kills 32 people in his college, compares himself on tape to Jesus Christ, there is never even a hint of linking Christianity to such a vile crime.

When a crazy man goes and kills 5 people at a Jewish center, it is portrayed as "Sudden Jihad Syndrome" or Islamic terrorism, despite the fact that the man is a convert to Christianity.

:no: :rolleyes: :shame:

[Tribesman]

How many journalists were attacked at the opposition rally in Russia this weekend ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

How many journalists were attacked at the opposition rally in Russia this weekend ?Quite a few! And this has happened before in Russia too! Intimidation, murder, censorship!

All of which leads me to believe that the freedom of the press is under duress in modern Russian culture. :yes:


Edit to add: So why should we shy away from a conclusion like that when it involves Islam?

[Tribesman]

So why should we shy away from a conclusion like that when it involves Islam?
A simple question for you Louis , would anyone dream of attributing blame on all Russians for the attacks , or claim that attacking journalists was just a russian thing ?
Surely it would have to be the case wouldn't it .
It was Russians that did it so it must be the Russians that are to blame , because ...well because thats what Russians are like .

So when you shied away from a conclusion , did you reach a conclusion as outlined above , or are you mixing conclusions?

[Louis VI the Fat]

A simple question for you Louis , would anyone dream of attributing blame on all Russians for the attacks , or claim that attacking journalists was just a russian thing ?
Surely it would have to be the case wouldn't it .
It was Russians that did it so it must be the Russians that are to blame , because ...well because thats what Russians are like .

So when you shied away from a conclusion , did you reach a conclusion as outlined above , or are you mixing conclusions?Who's blaming all Russians or all Muslims attack journalists, or claiming that attacking journalist is unique to either?

My conclusion is really simple: journalists, artists, authors get attacked, intimidated and murdered quite a bit in a lot of places. But more so in some places and in some cultures. Hence these cultures have more of a problem with freedom of speech than others.

I'm sure I could dig up some link about some Norwegian being beat up for saying something or another. Yet nobody will claim that Norway has as much of a problem as Russia in this respect.

And Islamic culture is very much on one end of the scale. And yes, Islam is not a monolith, but no, I'm not going to break down Islamic culture into different times, places, subdivisions and what not. I'm not going to do the same for Russia either - even though we can't speak of 'Russia' as a monolithic unchangeable culture either.
I would, as soon as somebody explains to me why this nuance is implicitly understood when, say, the Guardian writes 'Freedom of press at peril in Russia' but not when somebody writes '...at peril by Islamicism'.

If freedom of speech is under duress from either the government, religious institutions or ordinary citizens, then it is. Simple as that. I'm not going to be a fool about it, or be silent about it out of sensitivity.

[Ser Clegane]

Who's blaming all Russians or all Muslims attack journalists

Here is an example (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1513463&postcount=16)

I fully agree with you though, that the reasoning behind any act of such deserves to be mentioned

[Randarkmaan]

Allow me to explain further. I am not saying that the people who follow islam are at fault, but quite the opposite! I am saying that islam is at fault. All QUOTE]lmao, I think BG just doesn't want a "touchy" thread, because then he'd have to do his job! lol
Say what you like BG, but there IS a pattern. The islamic religion teaches hate and intolerance. They do not allow anyone to say anything that they disagree with (sound familiar BG?). If you think that I am just bashing a religion, and not telling the absolute truth, I could come up with 70 million news articles and quotes from the koran that prove what I am saying.religions have had wackos that do mental things in the name of their religion, so you cannot judge a religion by the attrocities comitted by the wackos of an era. What you CAN judge a religion by (and yes, I think that judging is important here) is the "holy" books on which it is based (after all, this IS the religion. Religions regulate a way of life and inspire a set of beliefs. These ways of life and beliefs are taken directly from the "holy" books), and by a predominant, continuing trend throughout centuries. Judging islam by those criteria yields the conclusion that islam is a religion of hate, of war, of intolerance, and of violence. (We will leave morality out of this discussion :P)

The religion of islam started out as...AN ARMY!! It was formed, and the koran was based on the writings of one of the most violent, perverse men in history! It is the most intolerant religion in the world!! It condemns ALL other religions (except, it is funny, that it had EXTREMELY good relations with jews when first invented. Kind of ironic...), all other races except, arabic, turk, and indian (yes, again, rather ironically, it condemns blacks as well), it condemns WOMEN!!!

The "islamic nation" has committed more, and larger, more filthy genocides than anyone else in the world!!! Even more than Stalin!!! (who WAY out-did Hitler!)

Muslims in todays society are calling for an over-throw from within of Western nations! The have raped, killed, enslaved, and persecuted all they have conquered! (which includes much of Europe, till the West declared the Crusades in responce and finally weakened them enough to blunt the offensive...Yes, that is right, the Crusades were in responce to centuries of muslim conquest.)

I'll be back online Monday and will be perfectly willing to prove ANYTHING I said that you may think untrue, unreasonable, unfounded, or slanderous. One request? Think before you post and do not flood me with responces to answer. ;)
Hope that will give you something to think of,

Vuk... you're out of your little mind, my friend.


Muslims in todays society are calling for an over-throw from within of Western nations! The have raped, killed, enslaved, and persecuted all they have conquered! (which includes much of Europe, till the West declared the Crusades in responce and finally weakened them enough to blunt the offensive...Yes, that is right, the Crusades were in responce to centuries of muslim conquest.)

Yay! The Crusades blunted the offensive! Although they didn't really achieve anything else than a latin country that existed in the middle east for a while, primarily because it took time for the Muslims to find a reason to remove them. Three centuries later and south eastern Europe was ruled by Muslims.


The "islamic nation" has committed more, and larger, more filthy genocides than anyone else in the world!!! Even more than Stalin!!! (who WAY out-did Hitler!)
How do you know this? I haven't really heard about any genocides, atleast not real ones, massacres of course, but those happen everywhere. And I think they would have to really well to outdo Stalin, in numbers, and Hitler in, cruelty and efficiency.


The religion of islam started out as...AN ARMY!! It was formed, and the koran was based on the writings of one of the most violent, perverse men in history! It is the most intolerant religion in the world!! It condemns ALL other religions (except, it is funny, that it had EXTREMELY good relations with jews when first invented. Kind of ironic...), all other races except, arabic, turk, and indian (yes, again, rather ironically, it condemns blacks as well), it condemns WOMEN!!!

It does not condemn all other religions, it "accepts" christianity and Judaism as flawed but valid religions, though pagans are to be considered idolators and unbelievers. But Monotheistic religions tend to have it built into them the belief that they are the only true religion and that they reject all others, they may allow others to keep their faith, but they will tell you that you will burn in hell if you do. Actually in Islam everyone who is a muslim is supposed to be equal, though they haven't really followed that (who has anyway?) and there may be some things in it, such as the status of women, that contradicts the "all are equal" thing. It does not condemn blacks, but people tend to be racists. Like you perhaps? You claim muslims are intolerant, but what are you then? I don't think Muslims would fare well in a society run by you... maybe sent of to some nice vacation camps? Alot of this is reminiscent of what people said of Jews in the middle ages, they thought they kidnapped and sacrificed children.

[Tribesman]

I would, as soon as somebody explains to me why this nuance is implicitly understood when, say, the Guardian writes 'Freedom of press at peril in Russia' but not when somebody writes '...at peril by Islamicism'.

There is nothing wrong when someone writes that , but too often it is written as Islam not islamicism .
Take the title of this topicCanadian Journalist Attacked by Muslims Canadian journalist attacked by fundamentalist Islamic fruitcakes reads very differently , offensive maybe but specificly offensive .
And it fits better with Ser Clegs line.......
the reasoning behind any act of such deserves to be mentioned

[Goofball]

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[Fragony]

You claim muslims are intolerant, but what are you then? I don't think Muslims would fare well in a society run by you... maybe sent of to some nice vacation camps? Alot of this is reminiscent of what people said of Jews in the middle ages, they thought they kidnapped and sacrificed children.

Muslims don't fare well anywhere, say what you want but they have a hard time accepting non-islamic vallues. I don't blame them with all these multiculturalists giving them the feeling that they are special, giving them what they want even before they know they realise that they demand it, idiots. Also in Norway, you guys must be doing something very very wrong there, just like they are doing something very very wrong in Sweden, Belgium, France, England, and my very own Dutchiestan, or everywhere, and now guess what Canada! Blame Canada! How could you fail them like that. Maybe there is, well, something wrong with Islam or at least with it's followers? Now I am consistantly growing milder, or at least trying really hard, but out of all major religions which one would you personally consider the most violent?

ps, godwin award is yours.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

I think the difference with Islam is that it's very explicit. A lot of what can be inferred from the Bible/Torah is spelled out in the Koran.

So if you want to find a verse telling you to smite the infidel you can. Having said that there's plenty of justification for smiting in the Old Testemant, and some places of the new. Jesus did apparently blast a fig tree just for not being in season.

Having said that, Islam has become the way it is partly because it has been seperated off and appeased, though the Sikhs did take one or two liberties over here. Most notably an open air cremation.

The other problem is that the centre of Islam, in the Middle East, has become for hard line over the last hundred years as the other major religions have mellowed.

[Fragony]

Well I think the problem with Islam is what we make of it. Islamic culture is in many things vastly different from ours, and it belongs in another time and most of all in another place, and we see our inability to give it a place here in the west as some collective faillure of our own. We say we respect it, but we really think it's all bull and that they will all gladly welcome the great enlightment, but they don't, they actually believe all that, and a good nose needs only half a fart. Too much respect for what is different, just because it is different. Just keep a respectable distance, and we will all be just fine.

edit: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh another fine example of major overdhimmification, and the rigid self-enforced respect for those that don't have it, the tsunami of cultural undertanding to wash out just a tiny little wee fire; a school in Amsterdam no longer teaches about farms because the little rascalls go a little bit jihad because they grow pigs there. I say more commisions, bring in the socioloco's to map out this truly fascinating development.

[Randarkmaan]

edit: ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh another fine example of major overdhimmification, and the rigid self-enforced respect for those that don't have it, the tsunami of cultural undertanding to wash out just a tiny little wee fire; a school in Amsterdam no longer teaches about farms because the little rascalls go a little bit jihad because they grow pigs there. I say more commisions, bring in the socioloco's to map out this truly fascinating development. Really? What I often wonder when I hear about stuff like this is, do they really go a little bit jihad or are people just afraid they'll go a little bit jihad without asking because then they might go jihad?

I have to agree with you on some points actually, especially about the belief that they will instantly see the value of a society with values different than their own. Anyway this is a problem only time can solve, not special weeks in schools with incredibly long names or timidity in history teaching.

[Fragony]

Really? What I often wonder when I hear about stuff like this is, do they really go a little bit jihad or are people just afraid they'll go a little bit jihad without asking because then they might go jihad?


Exactly that, and then these multiculturalists dare say that it is me that is afraid.

[Tribesman]

a school in Amsterdam no longer teaches about farms because the little rascalls go a little bit jihad because they grow pigs there.
That wouldn't by any chance translate as ....a school canceled its agricultural field study trip to a pig farm .....would it .:inquisitive:

[Leet Eriksson]

WHATS THIS, I AM AGREEING WITH FRAGONY AAAAAAAAAH :dizzy2:


Well I think the problem with Islam is what we make of it. Islamic culture is in many things vastly different from ours, and it belongs in another time and most of all in another place, and we see our inability to give it a place here in the west as some collective faillure of our own. We say we respect it, but we really think it's all bull and that they will all gladly welcome the great enlightment, but they don't, they actually believe all that, and a good nose needs only half a fart. Too much respect for what is different, just because it is different. Just keep a respectable distance, and we will all be just fine.

But i disagree on one point:


Muslims don't fare well anywhere

They actually are faring well, provided they keep their heads low and not whine constantly, for instance the US and Latin America there are many immigrants who are successful and educated, its not the case with europe where most of them are uneducated, which spells a whole load of problems.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Aha, so now we cut to the quic.

Education. We have problems with Afro-Carribeans shooting each other in London at the moment, they also lack a decent education.

So who's fault is this, the parents, the state or the individual?

[Randarkmaan]

They actually are faring well, provided they keep their heads low and not whine constantly, for instance the US and Latin America there are many immigrants who are successful and educated, its not the case with europe where most of them are uneducated, which spells a whole load of problems.

I remember reading about that, that Arab Americans (Muslims or Christians) usually have a higher income than the american average.


So who's fault is this, the parents, the state or the individual? Well... Either one of those, two of those or all of those! That's the great thing with people, they're usually so different its illogical!

[Fragony]

WHATS THIS, I AM AGREEING WITH FRAGONY

Just breathe, or don't ~;)

That wouldn't by any chance translate as ....a school canceled its agricultural field study trip to a pig farm .....would it .

No Tribes, I guess it doesn't

[Xiahou]

After all Banquo, it is not hypocrisy or an attempt to turn universities into Jewish institutions when colleges have Kosher food specially prepared for their Jewish students, but when a foot washing thingy is announced, it certainly is hypocrisy and an attempt to turn colleges into an Islamic institution.
You know, Hillel is a private student organization right? They were the one's preparing the food. The college was allowing students to transfer some of their mealplan (which the students have to purchase and pay for) to Hillel for them to buy kosher food- prepared at Hillel.

I wanted to point that out at the time, but never got back to it. Thanks for giving me the second chance. :beam:

[Tribesman]

No Tribes, I guess it doesn't
So Frag , you will undoubtably be able to provide proof that a school doesn't teach about farms because pigs are a type of farm animal , until then I will go on the basis of your past history of accuracy and say it is just some bollox that you made up .

[Louis VI the Fat]

Sorry Tribes, I like you and I'm afraid this might come off as me stalking you in every Islam thread there is around, but you and I simply don't agree about the intensity of hostility of Muslim immigrant circles towards their host nations and the urgency of solving the promblems this causes.

Netherlands National News Agency reports (http://www.nisnews.nl/public/270407_1.htm):


AMSTERDAM, 27/04/07 - A school in Amsterdam has halted lessons on rural life because the Islamic children refused to talk about pigs. Reporting this, Alderman Lodewijk Asscher said he wants to take "tough measures." Subsidies for all kinds of dubious groups must stop and parents of unruly children penalised financially.

Asscher told newspaper De Volkskrant: "A primary school in Amsterdam-Noord has decided no longer to teach about living on a farm. Various pupils began to demolish the classroom when the pig came up for discussion. Apparently it has gone that far. These children, 9, 10 years old, have not been given even the most elementary rules at home about why they must go to school."

Asscher, who is also the Labour (PvdA) leader in Amsterdam, wants to subject the parents to an 'upbringing requirement,' enforced with negative financial spurs. He is thinking of cuts in the children's allowance or lower welfare payments. In the Lower House, Youth and Family Minister Rouvoet recently rejected a plea for this from Party for Freedom (PVV).

Asscher also wants to prune the forest of subsidies for all kinds of foundations and organisations that say they work for multicultural goals. They receive 160 million euros annually from Amsterdam. Asscher wants to work out for each of these organisations in the "welfare industry" whether they do useful work and if not, halt the subsidy.

Asscher gave an example of abuse: "A Moroccan man took 50 youths off the streets, who were really an enormous nuisance. Now they collect wheelchairs for the handicapped in Surinam, Morocco and Turkey. Suddenly, a welfare body was set up alongside him, which is now trying to take the boys over from him, because they would then receive subsidies of 4,000 to 6,000 euros per kid. They are too timid to take these lads of the street themselves and now want them in their card-index because of the subsidy. Our Moroccan volunteer does not want to do it any more. I understand him."

Asscher is also shocked by the powerlessness of welfare bodies who try to talk criminal youngsters back onto the right track. In Slotervaart district, a mother of 10 children, of whom half have a criminal record, is guided by 35 different social workers, the alderman discovered. They have little or no idea of what each other is doing, according to Asscher.
And that is the Labour candidate speaking.

[Tribesman]

Thanks Louis .Simple question , why were the kids not simply removed from the class ?

[Louis VI the Fat]

why were the kids not simply removed from the class ?Because half the youths in all big Northwest European cities are Muslim. And you can not dismiss half your class every time
either of the following subjects comes up: sex, gays, women, Jews, Israel, WWII, pigs, religion, evolutionism, colonialism, national history, English, French, physical education.
It is rather difficult to teach biology, history, geography, physical education and languages in a multi-cultural classroom.

The solution: for the parents, it's moving to a white area so your own children can go to a decent school where there's none of this rubbish. For the schools in the suburbs having to teach those left behind, the solution is giving up all pretence of educating pupils and focusing on getting pupils through school without a criminal record or getting gang-raped.

And for society as a whole, the solution to this segregation is a good car insurance.

[Tribesman]

you can not dismiss half your class every time

You don't have to .......
Various pupils began to demolish the classroom ....you prosecute the little buggers and throw them out of the school .

[Xiahou]

Thanks Louis .Simple question , why were the kids not simply removed from the class ?
Maybe you should ask the school in question that.
Why was their response, instead, to stop teaching the subject?

[Fragony]

You don't have to .......
Various pupils began to demolish the classroom ....you prosecute the little buggers and throw them out of the school .

Now that would make sense now wouldn't it, but, they don't. Agree with ya, prosecute the little buggers, but, they don't (and can't, too young). And then people wonder why these little rascals have the feeling they can get away with everything, it's very simple, they simply can. All hail the cult.


Asscher is also shocked by the powerlessness of welfare bodies who try to talk criminal youngsters back onto the right track. In Slotervaart district, a mother of 10 children, of whom half have a criminal record, is guided by 35 different social workers

heh, the multivultures

[Yun Dog]

Hey, after the World Cup debacle, I'm amazed any Pakistani would dare be seen with a cricket bat. :bounce:

:yes: :beam: :beam: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

word


Oh another the Mulism are all violent fanatics thread based on a coupla drunks fighting over an ice cube at the north pole

yeh I agree

savages every last one of em... even the ones that live just like you and me.. oh does that mean we're savages


:dizzy2:

so based on the Virginia Tech and Kansas City - what does that tell us about Americans then

[Vladimir]

so based on the Virginia Tech and Kansas City - what does that tell us about Americans then

That we're all a bunch of violent, gun crazed colonials. *raises hand* Guilty. :rifle: :pirate2: :hmg:

[Yun Dog]

That we're all a bunch of violent, gun crazed colonials. *raises hand* Guilty. :rifle: :pirate2: :hmg:
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Adrian II]

Various pupils began to demolish the classroom ....you prosecute the little buggers and throw them out of the school .Schools in The Netherlands do not prosecute little buggers, it is not their core business. We try to solve problems. In this case the professional problem-solvers have made complete fools of themselves as the alderman has rightly concluded. Budgets will have to be cut, kids reallocated, parents' attitudes addressed until the little buggers have visited farms and learned all about pigs.

Oink. :yes:

[Vladimir]

Interesting. It's a little like watching someone fall off a bridge and drown then going to the city council to get them to install a hand rail. You’re not supposed to do anything at the moment but you feel good about yourself later.

[Blodrast]

Schools in The Netherlands do not prosecute little buggers, it is not their core business. We try to solve problems. In this case the professional problem-solvers have made complete fools of themselves as the alderman has rightly concluded. Budgets will have to be cut, kids reallocated, parents' attitudes addressed until the little buggers have visited farms and learned all about pigs.

Oink. :yes:

Serious question: do you think that is going to happen ?
To me it seems the schools have already chosen a path, and it's not exactly what you're suggesting...

[Adrian II]

Serious question: do you think that is going to happen ?
To me it seems the schools have already chosen a path, and it's not exactly what you're suggesting...From what I hear (and it is my town) that is what is happening. However, the kids are not being gathered at gunpoint and force-marched to Dutch farms for re-education, if that is what you mean.

[Fragony]

Serious question: do you think that is going to happen ?


Probably with the most utmost cultural understanding so that it doesn't upset them too much.

duck, and coveeeeeeeer

[Adrian II]

Probably with the most utmost cultural understanding so that it doesn't upset them too much.

duck, and coveeeeeeeerDutch schools should be (and usually are) primarily concerned with the welfare of their pupils, not with Fragony's scandal-driven little agenda.

There are enough forces aligned against these children and their future already. Forces that often, alas, include their own parents, their neighbourhoods, their peer clans, youth culture. A delicate balancing act often makes the difference between totally alienating them from Dutch society or integrating them sufficiently so they can make something of themselves.

That's how we have managed to keep Dutch society together in the past one hundred years, to the point where foreign investors prefer The Netherlands on account of its relaxed social climate and cohesion. And that's why we have no race riots, no-go areas, lost generations, teenage suicide epidemics, gun fights in our streets and related crap caused by a loss of social cohesion and solidarity in our society. It is very easy to break that fabric, and very hard to restore it. So I am against breaking it, even if it takes time, money and energy that could be spent elsewhere.

[Fragony]

Dutch schools should be (and usually are) primarily concerned with the welfare of their pupils, not with Fragony's scandal-driven little agenda.

There are enough forces aligned against these children and their future already. Forces that often, alas, include their own parents, their neighbourhoods, their peer clans, youth culture. A delicate balancing act often makes the difference between totally alienating them from Dutch society or integrating them sufficiently so they can make something of themselves.

That's how we have managed to keep Dutch society together in the past one hundred years, to the point where foreign investors prefer The Netherlands on account of its relaxed social climate and cohesion. And that's why we have no race riots, no-go areas, lost generations, teenage suicide epidemics, gun fights in our streets and related crap caused by a loss of social cohesion and solidarity in our society. It is very easy to break that fabric, and very hard to restore it. So I am against breaking it, even if it takes time, money and energy that could be spent elsewhere.

Owwww god, if they don't want to learn about pigs, well the bad grades at the exams are all theirs. If they make a racket, send them out of the class. If that means half the class so bloody what. If they do it again, kick them of school. If that means half the class, so bloody what, should ruffle some feathers with the parents. Muslim parents generally value education of their kids. Make it their problem. Here's the big word, wait for it, EQUAL TREATMENT

[Adrian II]

If they make a racket, send them out of the class. If that means half the class so bloody what. If they do it again, kick them of school.If we do that, they will be a problem to themselves, to their families and to the rest of society in five years time. In this country kids are hardly ever kicked out of schools. And if they are, another school is obliged to take them. Like I said, we spend a lot of money helping or, if need be, forcing kids to make something of themselves. No child should be left behind indeed, in the end that's in everyone's interest.

[Vladimir]

That's how we have managed to keep Dutch society together in the past one hundred years, to the point where foreign investors prefer The Netherlands on account of its relaxed social climate and cohesion. And that's why we have no race riots, no-go areas, lost generations, teenage suicide epidemics, gun fights in our streets and related crap caused by a loss of social cohesion and solidarity in our society. It is very easy to break that fabric, and very hard to restore it. So I am against breaking it, even if it takes time, money and energy that could be spent elsewhere.


Asscher told newspaper De Volkskrant: "A primary school in Amsterdam-Noord has decided no longer to teach about living on a farm. Various pupils began to demolish the classroom when the pig came up for discussion. Apparently it has gone that far. These children, 9, 10 years old, have not been given even the most elementary rules at home about why they must go to school."

Hello, McFly :smash: . Didn't Dutch society already Van Goethe to the dogs, er, pigs?

[Adrian II]

Hello, McFly :smash: . Didn't Dutch society already Van Goethe to the dogs, er, pigs?We threw Van Goethe off a tower in 1482 and McFly is running a profitable insect business in Amsterdam. Anything wrong with that?

[Fragony]

If we do that, they will be a problem to themselves, to their families and to the rest of society in five years time. In this country kids are hardly ever kicked out of schools. And if they are, another school is obliged to take them. Like I said, we spend a lot of money helping or, if need be, forcing kids to make something of themselves. No child should be left behind indeed, in the end that's in everyone's interest.

As if it comes to half the class being kicked of school, make it the parents problem, it is exactly that after all, and wait for the magic to happen. I expect a lot of father to son talk when once they understand it's swim or drown.

[Adrian II]

As if it comes to half the class being kicked of school, make it the parents problem, it is exactly that after all, and wait for the magic to happen. I expect a lot of father to son talk when once they understand it's swim or drown.Those fathers themselves can't swim. If you had any genuine interest in the matter at all, you would know this is a major part of the problem.

[Fragony]

Those fathers themselves can't swim. If you had any genuine interest in the matter at all, you would know they are a part of the problem, not the solution.

Oh I think you are wrong there, they know they can't swim after all, and they want a better future for their kids. Once they understand that their offspring is depriving itselve of it's future, and that there is nobody to help them for a change, wait for it. Make it in their best interest to do some parenting, why should they make any effort whatsoever the way it is? No short supply of idiots looking for half-baked no tommorow solutions. And really, why should we care, I care about the other half of the class, streets need to be swept just as rockets need engines.

[Adrian II]

Oh I think you are wrong there, they know they can't swim after all, and they want a better future for their kids.Half of them do not speak the language, the other half are incapacitated due to the hard or hazardous work they did in their prime as migrant workers.

Muslim girls do very well in Dutch schools and later on in society as well. The problem is with the boys. Boys do not adapt as easily as girls (this applies in any culture) and these boys are acutely aware that Dutch society has low expectations of them (or none at all). The only identity they can develop is in opposition to that society. They should be taught that this is unproductive instead of being kicked out and confirmed in their opposition.

[Fragony]

Muslim girls do very well in Dutch schools and later on in society as well. The problem is with the boys. Boys do not adapt as easily as girls (this applies in any culture) and these boys are acutely aware that Dutch society has low expectations of them (or none at all). The only identity they can develop is in opposition to that society. They should be taught that this is unproductive instead of being kicked out and confirmed in their opposition.

AdrianII, these kids in question are 10 years old, let's please treat them like that. Kids will be kids, and give them any room for mischief they will gladly take it. This is not religiously inspired outrage, that's what that idiot that decided to stop teaching about pigs makes of it. The problem is that what is being taught to them is that we are afraid of them, and that they can do as they please. The problem is that we make a problem out of it.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Bring back the cane, restore order.

Properly applied and regulated corporal punishment is highly effective and it is one of only two things that works on young children, the other being bribary.

Remember, these children have yet to develope a concience and they never will unless they are made to link bad behavior with bad experiences.

[Adrian II]

AdrianII, these kids in question are 10 years old, let's please treat them like that. Kids will be kids, and give them any room for mischief they will gladly take it. This is not religiously inspired outrage, that's what that idiot that decided to stop teaching about pigs makes of it. The problem is that what is being taught to them is that we are afraid of them, and that they can do as they please. The problem is that we make a problem out of it.You're talking sense, man. I agree that this is part of the problem, along with parental attitudes, oversized classes, unqualified teachers, etcetera. But my point still stands that kicking kids out of school is no solution to any of these issues.

[Don Corleone]

I gotta go with Adrian on this one, Fragony. I hear what you're saying. But if your point is that they're just parroting intolerant viewpoints they pick up at home, doesn't it make sense to get them out of the home as much as possible? Perhaps expose them to the reality that exists in the world in spite of what they've heard in their cloistered little enclave?

I don't think changing the curriculum to accomodate them is the right answer either, but nobody here is arguing that. The only people that have is the school themselves, and Adrian says they're reversing that policy.