All babies go to heaven ! [Archive]

doc_bean

04-22-2007, 11:39

says vatican (http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2007/04/20/674435-pope-revises-limbo-for-babies)

Well, perhaps I'm going to have to revise my opinion on Pope Benedict a bit. I would have figured he would be more the type to damn all those little souls (well, damn to limbo at least) and reinforce the importance of baptism to get into heaven.

This would also mean that non-christian/non-catholic babies can get into heaven, which leaves open the door for a (more) secular form of Catholicism, just when I was afraid Benedict wanted to take us back to the dark ages.

:medievalcheers:

Adrian II

04-22-2007, 11:44

Are there many Belgians left who take the Vatican serious?

doc_bean

04-22-2007, 11:50

Are there many Belgians left who take the Vatican serious?

Errr...probably not.

Though West Flanders still has an active Catholic community, the influence of the Vatican itself is minor I believe. In the rest of the country it's mostly the older people who still go to church. There are some 'new' younger believers, but protestantism seems to be more popular with those (they tend to be alternative types, so I guess they'd want an alternative religion too).

Of course, I'm from Antwerp (the region anyway), a traditional secular/atheist haven, so I might have a wrong picture of the rest of the country. (see my other post in the 'speak Durch... ' thread on how isolationist we tend to be.)

Kanamori

04-22-2007, 11:54

Good, now that they've had that question lifted off our consciences we can all go back to relaxing.

Ronin

04-22-2007, 12:25

not that I give a damn...

but I find it funny how they just change their minds from one day to another....

I mean....wasn´t the former position of the church supposed to be God´s position?

so what happen?....did he call them in the bat-phone and say he changed his mind or what??? :laugh4:

InsaneApache

04-22-2007, 12:45

bat-phone! ROFLOL :laugh4:

Grey_Fox

04-22-2007, 13:20

I thought this has been practice for the last couple of decades?

doc_bean

04-22-2007, 14:24

not that I give a damn...

but I find it funny how they just change their minds from one day to another....

Theologians have been studying the issue at least as far back as 1984 before they came to this conclusion.

I mean....wasn´t the former position of the church supposed to be God´s position?

so what happen?....did he call them in the bat-phone and say he changed his mind or what??? :laugh4:

Welcome to the wonderful world of Catholicism ~D

Pannonian

04-22-2007, 14:54

Welcome to the wonderful world of Catholicism ~D
That's the great thing about Catholicism - it's so vague. No-one knows what it's really all about.
- Father Ted Crilly

Bijo

04-22-2007, 15:40

Can he prove it?

Seamus Fermanagh

04-22-2007, 16:11

Holy Mother Church moves forward at a spiritual and not a temporal pace.

Since the Lord rarely chooses direct conversation, part of the journey of spiritual growth is using our poor and imperfect powers of understanding to come closer and closer to Him [my use of the masculine pronoun is traditional, I suspect any male/female designation is actually irrelevant].

Gawain of Orkeny

04-22-2007, 17:35

Well I must admit the title of this thread threw me off. Then when I saw the Vatican link I was like what the hell is this. I was raised Catholic and we were always taught that all babies go to heaven. Then I read the article and the part about them not being baptised. Well that sort of made sense. It was just a way of making people become Catholic in the old days. Well I guess nowdays as well. However this has never been the official doctrine of the church. They had no doctrine on it. Now they do.

PS Notice what his stement says

pe Benedict XVI has revised traditional Roman Catholic teaching on so-called "limbo," approving a church report released Friday that said there was reason to hope that babies who die without baptism can go to heaven.

He didnt say they will. Maybe he lacks faith :inquisitive:

Rodion Romanovich

04-22-2007, 17:43

errr... does this mean I can get my money back for the indulgences I bought?

Divinus Arma

04-22-2007, 18:29

Strike For The South

04-22-2007, 18:31

Divinus Arma

04-22-2007, 18:34

Which of course demonstrates the total absurdity of the existential perspective of the Roman Catholic Church and its splinter organizations.

Sasaki Kojiro

04-22-2007, 18:35

Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.

Sweet!

Adrian II

04-22-2007, 19:27

Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.IN that case I am pretty sure Benedict himself is inoculated.

Ronin

04-22-2007, 19:30

Which of course demonstrates the total absurdity of the existential perspective of the Roman Catholic Church and its splinter organizations.

exactly!

if they wanted to ensure "salvation" for everyone they would simply stop preaching and disband...

no one hears about the gospel......everyone goes to heaven....

Kralizec

04-22-2007, 20:01

exactly!

if they wanted to ensure "salvation" for everyone they would simply stop preaching and disband...

no one hears about the gospel......everyone goes to heaven....

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics believe that salvation is attained through faith and good works - if lack of the former would be unculpable, there's still the other...

Husar

04-22-2007, 20:41

Well, that's basically what I was told since Jesus said "Let the kids come to me."
Nice to know the pope found that out as well, if he goes on with that speed, he may still finish reading the bible in his lifetime.~;)

Fisherking

04-22-2007, 20:59

Oh well, it is nice that they finally got something right don't you think?

Xiahou

04-22-2007, 21:16

It relates to a similar perspective which states that those who haven't been exposed to the Gospel cannot be damned, because the opportunity for salvation was never presented to no fault of their own.

Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.Nope.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but Catholics believe that salvation is attained through faith and good works - if lack of the former would be unculpable, there's still the other...:yes:

The Spartan (Returns)

04-22-2007, 21:37

as a Catholic,

if a die a baby, do i have to enjoy heaven as a baby? that would be quite dull.

Philippus Flavius Homovallumus

04-22-2007, 22:26

LOL.

This is old news though, 9 months to a year.

Kralizec

04-22-2007, 22:34

LOL.

This is old news though, 9 months to a year.

Well it obviously only applies to people conveived after the revision.

InsaneApache

04-22-2007, 23:40

Who is this Jesus, of which you speak?

[OK I'm in] :sweatdrop:

Ronin

04-22-2007, 23:43

Well it obviously only applies to people conveived after the revision.

of course.....God is all forgiving...but a contract is a contract folks!!!

Vladimir

04-23-2007, 00:18

errr... does this mean I can get my money back for the indulgences I bought?

Did you keep the receipt? The Church is very good at keeping records. :yes:

Papewaio

04-23-2007, 00:21

Which, as logic would reply, means that total ignorance of the Gospel innoculates one from damnation.

Religions tend to from time to time split into two broad camps, organised seekers of the human soul vs organised willful ignorance. The first creates some of the greatest works of art and ideas in human existence the later tends to make bonfires of them.

So ignorance and religion have a time honoured tradition of embrace and conflict.

KukriKhan

04-23-2007, 01:33

Who is this Jesus, of which you speak?

[OK I'm in] :sweatdrop:

Whom... of whom. :)

ajaxfetish

04-23-2007, 02:36

Who is this Jesus, of which you speak?

[OK I'm in]

Whom... of whom. :)
Technically, the first is part of a predicate nominative construction, so 'who' is correct. The second should indeed be 'whom,' but I'm all for phasing the objective form out of our language anyhow, so meh.

And back on topic: I didn't realize that limbo for infants was not official Roman Catholic doctrine. Fascinating as Catholic theology is, this was one tenet I could never appreciate. The change is welcome news, and I think does make the possibilities for Benedict's pontificate more interesting.

Ajax

Gawain of Orkeny

04-23-2007, 03:31

Well it obviously only applies to people conveived after the revision.

Ill say this for you all one more time slowly so you will understand. "There was no revision" This is the first time the church has taken a official stance on this matter. Instead of praising them for making the right choice(even though they hedged their bets) many of you are ridiculing them.

Adrian II

04-23-2007, 07:50

"There was no revision" This is the first time the church has taken a official stance on this matter.That's why we are all so impressed. This is good news for babies and other believers.

Major Robert Dump

04-23-2007, 10:22

I've known some very evil babies. I don't think its fair to get a free pass just because you are a baby.

doc_bean

04-23-2007, 11:41

Well I must admit the title of this thread threw me off. Then when I saw the Vatican link I was like what the hell is this. I was raised Catholic and we were always taught that all babies go to heaven. Then I read the article and the part about them not being baptised. Well that sort of made sense. It was just a way of making people become Catholic in the old days. Well I guess nowdays as well. However this has never been the official doctrine of the church. They had no doctrine on it. Now they do.

I believe I was raised with the limbo idea, technically, I at least knew that was the (semi) official stance. We do have a much cooler word for it in Dutch though 'voorgeborchte ', it's also the place where the good people go who were born before Jesus lived (or died, not sure about the time in between).

PS Notice what his stement says

He didnt say they will. Maybe he lacks faith :inquisitive:

I always suspected him of being more of a traditionalist than a believer.

Sasaki Kojiro

04-23-2007, 11:56

Babies do have an unfair advantage in the limbo though. I don't think it would be so bad for them.

Gawain of Orkeny

04-23-2007, 16:32

Babies do have an unfair advantage in the limbo though. I don't think it would be so bad for them.

Yeah. I mean how much time can god give you for just one little old original sin?

I believe I was raised with the limbo idea,

I was also for adults. I dont think theve shot down the idea of limbo here though.

Bijo

04-23-2007, 17:16

He didnt say they will. Maybe he lacks faith
Then maybe James Earl Jones -- if he finds his lack of faith disturbing -- should keep him in a distant chokehold :laugh4:

But belief this, and belief that, babies to heaven, blah blah, yadda yadda, bing boop.... beh! Let us look at the simple fact(s): Earth is already Hell :saint:

And no: I'm not cynical.... not at all.

Reenk Roink

04-23-2007, 17:39

I thought this was always the case? :huh:

IrishArmenian

04-24-2007, 01:42

Which of course demonstrates the total absurdity of the existential perspective of the Roman Catholic Church and its splinter organizations.
What do you mean by splinter organisations?

Gawain of Orkeny

04-24-2007, 03:36

The IRA :laugh4:

Incongruous

04-24-2007, 05:49

Ha!

I'm with Gawain on this, too many people tryin to shoot down Holy Mother Church, for no good reason.

Lorenzo_H

04-24-2007, 08:39

Just recently visited the Vatican myself. Did you know that inside the Vatican, a tiny litte state that I could run from one side to the other in less than 5 minutes, is contatined over 30% of the world's entire Art value (in money). Probably because of the Pieta which is worth in the 100s of Millions, and the Sistine Chapel which itself could easily fetch several Billion.

Sorry, slight OT.

doc_bean

04-24-2007, 09:30

I was also for adults. I dont think theve shot down the idea of limbo here though.

Yup, i'm pretty sure that remains.

I'm not sure what the official Catholic stand is on what happens to them at the end of days though.