The ANZAC Day Flag Burning

[Hepcat]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/event/story.cfm?c_id=773&objectid=10436262

This completely disgusts me. ~:pissed:

On a day meant for rememberance of those who gave their lives in defence of our country these pigs decide that they'll turn it into a spectacle where they dishonour everything that the day stands for by not just burning our flag, but doing it during the dawn parade!

It sickens me to think that these people think they are justified in protesting the fact that we have troops on peacekeeping missions abroad on a day for respect.

Can't they leave their stupid politics for some other day, ANZAC day isn't about politics at all.

So what are people views? Is anyone going to try and justify their actions? ~:mad

[Incongruous]

Well I don't agree with them, either about burning the flag or using the law faculty's grounds for it.

But I am more angry at the fact that they were arrested for a protest, shocking. Shows what kind of democracy we live in, I don't give a damn if someone wants to burn a peace of material with a cross and some stars on it. I mean for god's sake, we live in the 21st century!
Disgusting.

[Yun Dog]

I dont approve of this sort of thing

but then I also dont approve of the Government using ANZAC day to prop up the flagging support for its foriegn wars

I mean if gallipolli and Vietnam taught us anything surely the lesson of ANZAC day is dont get involved in 'other peoples' foriegn wars or wars against ideas

I think if the government can use ANZAC day for its purpose, then its fair game for anyone elses political message

the government should GTFO of our rememberence day, because it will make the day unpopular by association .. people not wanting to show support for stupid wars

we can sit here and remember the fallen of Gallipolli with the shining realization that we have learned nothing from the sacrifice of those men

yay for us

on the positive side.. if all the stupid warmongers and military wannabes join up and get used as cannon fodder by the government as it polices the world, well thats going to cull alot of stupid people... which cant be bad thing... maybe thats why we need regular wars

[sapi]

Disgraceful.

Conscript them in the army, I say (in all seriousness)

As for the political interferance, I had the 'pleasure' of listening to our PM speak yesterday at a dawn service, and it's just shocking how politicised the entire event has become.

While i'm sure that a lot of the people there were doing so for the right reasons, the treatment of such a service as a 'meet and greet' (ironically enough in Rudd's territory) just seems wrong

[Hepcat]

Well I don't agree with them, either about burning the flag or using the law faculty's grounds for it.

But I am more angry at the fact that they were arrested for a protest, shocking. Shows what kind of democracy we live in, I don't give a damn if someone wants to burn a peace of material with a cross and some stars on it. I mean for god's sake, we live in the 21st century!
Disgusting.

But isn't burning the flag illegal? They aren't arresting all of the group who protested, just the flag burners. But still I think that even those stupid protesters would have enough brains to realise that ANZAC day isn't about glorifying war, if anything it is the opposite. It is commemorating a defeat after all and over here (I don't know about Australia) from what I've seen the government keeps politics out of it.

To me those protesters are just showing a complete lack of respect for their country and their heritage.


Conscript them in the army, I say (in all seriousness)
I agree.

[Crazed Rabbit]

Looks like we've exported some idiots, or idiotic concepts. Sorry about that. There, at least, you can arrest them for burning the flag of the nation they reside in.

Here, at a university at least, you're more likely to get in trouble burning a terrorist flag than the US flag.

CR

[AntiochusIII]

PUT FORTH TEH FLAG BURNING AMENDMENT!!11!OMG!!1

:balloon:

Bunch of Yankee wannabes :P

[sapi]

There was a similar story somewhere down south, where a bunch of teenagers spray painted anti-war messages on an Anzac memorial.

While this isn't the same offense as the flag burning, what was interesting and uplifting about it was the way that the local community all pitched in to help clear everything off before morning.

So what's the community reaction to this stunt?

I'm currently working my way through my RSS subscriptions, so I should come across the story. Be interesting to see how it's reported...

[Major Robert Dump]

It's a stupid, disrespectful thing to do, but keeping it legal says a lot of good things about the liberties of a country. I just wish Republicans here would get that through their heads and stop using it as a diversion from real issues every 6 years or so.

[sapi]

I'm not against people's democratic rights to demonstration and so on (although many modern countries take them too far, imo) but orchestrating such a disrespectful anti-war protest on a day which commemorates all those who fought and died stopped those ungrateful sods from having to do so goes way over the line...

[English assassin]

It's a stupid, disrespectful thing to do, but keeping it legal says a lot of good things about the liberties of a country. I just wish Republicans here would get that through their heads and stop using it as a diversion from real issues every 6 years or so.

That's it in a nutshell. There's a lot to be said for allowing idiots to show the rest of the world they are idiots.

If you decide that NZ's current military activities, or the actions of the ANZAC corps, were a bad thing as the result of a few morons burning a flag, you are way too easily influenced.

[Banquo's Ghost]

That's it in a nutshell. There's a lot to be said for allowing idiots to show the rest of the world they are idiots.

If you decide that NZ's current military activities, or the actions of the ANZAC corps, were a bad thing as the result of a few morons burning a flag, you are way too easily influenced.

I also think the good Major had it right, as do you. :bow:

There is also, sadly, the aspect that reasoned discussion and peaceful, non-offensive protest gets virtually no coverage any more. The mere fact we are discussing this shows that this group achieved their aims.

I can just see how the media would have been all over a press release that stated: "We didn't want to make a degrading fuss on ANZAC Day out of respect for the fallen, so we will be politely handling out leaflets at tea-time on the following Friday expressing disappointment at the mildly bewildered people who may support the war." Would they have been killed in the rush...? :no:

In contrast to the flag-burners, every time I visit Bristol in the UK, there has been a group holding a silent vigil against the Iraq war at the side of the busiest street. They pray, light candles, hold up signs and generally behave in a dignfied manner. I'm sure there are many other groups doing the same across our democracies. They have been doing this since 2003, almost every night.

How many times do they get in the international press? OTOH, they are a delight to talk to and may well have influenced a few local people more positively than the clowns with their flag-incinerations.

[sapi]

And that is the sad truth ~:(

Until we can find a way to remove the need to make an impression on media, dignified protest will continue to remain a virtual oxymoron.

It is somewhat ironic that by so publically bringing their chosen issue to light, the people in this example may well have done more harm than good to their cause.

And while local cases such as the one described by BG may not get much press, they speak volumes for not only the cause but for the people willing to support it.

Lest we forget.

[naut]

Tasteless thing to do; but I'm not against it. If they want to make a fool out of themselves that's their prerogative and I wouldn't stand in their way.

[rory_20_uk]

I would have thought that Gallipoli is a lesson in remembering to pack your ships before invading.

The flag burners are going to loose masses of support for these actions. Only the utterly blinkered will think it's a good idea. There's no need to censure them - they're doing a great job themselves.

~:smoking:

[Adrian II]

The Dumpster has it.

That flag shouldn't be anybody's preserve because it symbolizes a free state. The flagburners should be free to make fools of themselves in their little corner.

But I suppose the government wants to use both the flag and the flagburners to score points against the real opposition, just as the Republicans in the U.S. do. Cheapness comes in all flavours, particularly in democracies.

[KukriKhan]

Lots of people fought and died to give protesters the right to hollar whatever they want. I've done my share.

I just wish they'd burn something more relevant to get their point(s) across:

Against conscription? Burn your draft card.
Against male chauvenism? Burn your bra.
Against globalisation? Burn 100-Euro notes.
Against vehicle emissions? Burn your drivers license.

You know: make it hurt. Show your distain by sacrificing something of your own.

Burning a flag? Means nothing.

[Gregoshi]

You have to be realistic Kukri. Why should they sacrifice anything?

[Vladimir]

I would pass a law where you could burn your country's flag only while it was wrapped around your head. Like Kurki said, make it hurt.

[Louis VI the Fat]

I am utterly and thoroughly disgusted by desecration of national flags!

We must immediately arrest anybody who dishonours our flags by using them in any demonstration of a martial nationalism. They dishonour the sacrifices of those who fought in defence of what our liberal democracies stand for.

It sickens me to think that the military thinks they are justified in flying flags in the faces of peacemongerers, especially on a day of human unity, respect for human values and national harmony.

~;p

[Vladimir]

I am utterly and thoroughly disgusted by desecration of national flags!

We must immediately arrest anybody who dishonours our flags by using them in any demonstration of a martial nationalism. They dishonour the sacrifices of those who fought in defence of what our liberal democracies stand for.

It sickens me to think that the military thinks they are justified in flying flags in the faces of peacemongerers, especially on a day of human unity, respect for human values and national harmony.

~;p

Hear he...wait, let me read that one again :inquisitive:

[Rodion Romanovich]

Well I don't agree with them, either about burning the flag or using the law faculty's grounds for it.

But I am more angry at the fact that they were arrested for a protest, shocking. Shows what kind of democracy we live in, I don't give a damn if someone wants to burn a peace of material with a cross and some stars on it. I mean for god's sake, we live in the 21st century!
Disgusting.
I agree :2thumbsup:

[PanzerJaeger]

Hippie scum... or the NZ equivolent.. :no:

[CrossLOPER]

Hey let's conscript people for burning a flag. Also let's be enraged to the point of hypertension every time this happens (srsly guyz).

[Hepcat]

But this isn't America. We aren't used to this sort of thing happenning.

And often we just have very misguided protesters who don't really know what they are protesting about, they just know that they aren't happy.

And Louis, the NZ government is by no means jingoist. I wouldn't have been bothered by this if the protestors had of just been waving a New Zealand flag or whatever, but desecrating one does not add weight to their arguments. So would you consider starting a forest fire an acceptable move for protesters?

These people are by no means a large majority they just feel left out of all the action so they are trying to find something to complain about. Or they probably just wanted to get on tv.

[Vladimir]

:2thumbsup: Sig.

[Incongruous]

Hippie scum... or the NZ equivolent.. :no:

Hippie scum... or the NZ equivolent..:yes:

[Crazed Rabbit]

Kukri has a good point about what should be burnt. To me, the flag represents a whole nation, and when you burn it, you're not just protesting one action you dislike, you're protesting the nation it stands for, the whole of principles behind that nation, all that it has achieved.


But this isn't America. We aren't used to this sort of thing happenning.

Ah, sounds nice. I take it you don't have any groups burning effigies of the soldiers of their countries and chanting for their death, then?

CR

[Louis VI the Fat]

And Louis, the NZ government is by no means jingoist. I wouldn't have been bothered by this if the protestors had of just been waving a New Zealand flag or whatever, but desecrating one does not add weight to their arguments. I don't really know much about the nature of ANZAC day. The pro's and cons of burning a flag on this day have already been explored earlier in the thread, and I didn't have much to add to it. So I avoided mentioning NZ, because I don't have anything to say about it in particular.

What I was doing was dissaproving of the appropriation of a national symbol, a flag, which is suppossed to represent the whole of the nation, by martial values. NZ, and other liberal democracies, are pluriform societies. Pacifists have as much right to the flag as warmongerers.

All are allowed to use the flag, and the memory of those fallen for the values it represents, as a symbol for their own political and social values. Do not forget that a flag at a military ceremony is as much a political statement as a flag used by anti-war protestors. 'Desecration of the memory of the fallen' is political blackmail, and all too easily abused for the political goals of the day.

The Wellington police is appealing for people who witnessed the protest against troops being deployed oversea to contact them. Why isn't the police searching for the ones using the flag as a symbol in favour of the overseas deployment of NZ troops? There's a discrepancy in there. It is this discrepancy, this difference in political status, that makes one group burn the flag while the other can usurpate it. Not a difference in good taste.

[Yun Dog]

Kukri has a good point about what should be burnt. To me, the flag represents a whole nation, and when you burn it, you're not just protesting one action you dislike, you're protesting the nation it stands for, the whole of principles behind that nation, all that it has achieved.



Ah, sounds nice. I take it you don't have any groups burning effigies of the soldiers of their countries and chanting for their death, then?

CR


But does the Flag represent the people, certainly it represent the historical administrations of a nation and is that nations symbol, but what if the government/administration of your nation is conducting shameful acts, does the flag still represent the people of that nation or just the government. A flag is after all just a flag, to connect desecration of a flag with desicration of that nations people..is a stretch, would you be angry at people for burning the Nazi flag or the rising sun.

Nationalistic movements love to use flag to unite people behind their facist ideals, but does it represent the people or just those waving it in your face as they commit their attrocities or conscript your children to feed their warlust

?

[KukriKhan]

But does the Flag represent the people, certainly it represent the historical administrations of a nation and is that nations symbol...

Many nation-alists (I hyphenate to separate them from nationalists) ascribe quite heavy meaning to their flags - for example this piece from american Howard Schnauber:


I Am the Flag Of America

I am the flag of the United States of America.
My name is Old Glory.
I fly atop the world's tallest buildings.
I stand watch in America's halls of justice.
I fly majestically over institutions of learning.
I stand guard with power in the world.
Look up and see me.

I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.
I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.

When I am flown with my fellow banners,
My head is a little higher,
My colors a little truer.

I bow to no one!
I am recognized all over the world.
I am honored - I am saluted.
I am loved - I am revered.
I am respected - and I am feared.

I have fought in every battle
of every war
for more then 200 years.

I was flown at Valley Forge,
Gettysburg, Shiloh and Appamatox.
I was there at San Juan Hill,
the trenches of France,
in the Argonne Forest,
Anzio, Rome and the beaches of Normandy.

Guam, Okinawa, Korea and
KheSan, Saigon, Vietnam know me.
I was there.
I led my troops, I was dirty, battleworn and tired,
But my soldiers cheered me and I was proud.

I have been burned, torn and trampled on the
streets of countries I have helped set free.
It does not hurt for I am a symbol of love and freedom.
I have been soiled upon, burned, torn and
trampled in the streets of my country.
And when it's done by those
Whom I've served in battle - it hurts.
But I shall overcome - for I am strong.

I have slipped the bonds of Earth
and stood watch over the uncharted
frontiers of space from my vantage point on the moon.
I have borne silent witness to all of America's finest hours.

But my finest hours are yet to come.

When I am torn into strips and used as bandages
for my wounded comrades on the battlefield,
When I am flown at half-mast to honor my soldier,
Or when I lie in the trembling arms of a grieving parent
at the grave of their fallen son or daughter,

I am proud.
Yet, I am humble. I know that my greatness comes from God.
I know that God's blessing is what makes my country great.

Howard Schnauber

Many flag enthusiasts invoke their respective dieties. So, for them, burning a flag equates to wishing/cursing their nation and diety to a firey demise. A supreme insult.

Most especially when ignited by fellow citizens who enjoy the freedoms guaranteed by the blood of previous citizens.

Nation-alists get ticked off by what they consider "sunshine patriots", fellow citizens who protest ugly administration decisions within the comfort of their own prosperity and civil rights, but aren't willing to do the hard, long work required to set things right, themselves, through the nonviolent legislative means available.

Instead, they go for the sensational, photo-worthy, cheap-ass trick (most burnt national flags are mock-ups, not 'real' flags - they require accelerants; lighter fluid, gasoline, etc). The circus event.

This is why I say burning a national flag means nothing. It (the burning) is meant to symbolize distain for some policy, but is read as: "Burn (insert nation), Burn!".

And by extension, "Burn (national people), Burn!". Which I think is not the message the protesters desire to present.

Hence, I suggest other documents/items be burnt in lieu of flags.

But that doesn't make good TV, I guess.

Is there anyone here old enough to remember the Buddhist monks in 'Nam flaming themSELVES in protest of their American occupation and local corruption? 30 and 40-something guys in saffron robes, barbequed voluntarily in the middle of a Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City intersection?

THAT, my friends, is protest.

[Hepcat]

Is there anyone here old enough to remember the Buddhist monks in 'Nam flaming themSELVES in protest of their American occupation and local corruption? 30 and 40-something guys in saffron robes, barbequed voluntarily in the middle of a Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City intersection?
I'm not old enough to remember it but I saw photos and film of it in History last year when we did a unit on Vietnam. Now thats what I call commitment to their cause. What astounded me was that they weren't screaming out or anything. :sweatdrop:

Louis: As I said before, why can't protestors burn down a native forest as part of their protest? Because it's against the law of course, well I'm pretty sure burning the flag is as well. So if you do something illegal you should not be able to hide behing the "It's a free country" excuse and get off the hook. Besides, it's not as if the police will do anything with them, probably just a small fine.

Yunus Dogus: I don't think that applies here, the NZ flag isn't one of a regime and our current government isn't conscripting children or committing atrocities. So our flag isn't a bad symbol.

[Yun Dog]

I don't think that applies here, the NZ flag isn't one of a regime and our current government isn't conscripting children or committing atrocities. So our flag isn't a bad symbol.

So burning other nations flags is ok? Depending on the nation or if they are behaving in a manner you judge as bad... so flag burning is conditional then... not my nation but one I dont like is ok?

Im not saying it does apply in this case

I merely pose the question,
firstly because many people take the burning the flag personally
and secondly while NZ isnt commiting attrocies - hypothetically if you were say Iran Jayan and you saw someone burning the Indonesian flag?

I understand why people take such an affront but also feel that government use this almost religeous zeal for the flag to whip people into frenzyed support of things that were said people to experience first hand may take some of the shine off the flag.

to get to the point - I think blind loyalty to symbols is not wise

I think people should judge for themselves what is good and bad about their nation and what is truth and what is a lie, and waving a flag in front of my face isnt going to blind me to that... but it will many

Likewise burning it isnt going to make me despair either or influence me in any way

:shame:

edit: (multiple edits .. adding some thoughts)



I stand for peace, honor, truth and justice.
I stand for freedom.
I am confident.
I am arrogant.
I am proud.


no its just a coloured piece of cloth
it stands for whatever that nation happens to involved in at the time - not always the above (it also flew over the massacre at My Lai)
its a very romantic and idealistic poem IMO



Many nation-alists (I hyphenate to separate them from nationalists) ascribe quite heavy meaning to their flags

But are they separable or just degrees apart on the same ideology

[JR-]

http://www.nzherald.co.nz/event/story.cfm?c_id=773&objectid=10436262

This completely disgusts me. ~:pissed:

On a day meant for rememberance of those who gave their lives in defence of our country these pigs decide that they'll turn it into a spectacle where they dishonour everything that the day stands for by not just burning our flag, but doing it during the dawn parade!

It sickens me to think that these people think they are justified in protesting the fact that we have troops on peacekeeping missions abroad on a day for respect.

Can't they leave their stupid politics for some other day, ANZAC day isn't about politics at all.

So what are people views? Is anyone going to try and justify their actions? ~:mad
disgusting behavior.

[pevergreen]

As an Australian, it is an outrage for that to happen, but i can understand some people not really minding. Its how you view your country.

[AntiochusIII]

Because it's against the law of course, well I'm pretty sure burning the flag is as well. So if you do something illegal you should not be able to hide behing the "It's a free country" excuse and get off the hook. Besides, it's not as if the police will do anything with them, probably just a small fine.It's illegal to burn a flag?

Gee.