Young girl prevented from leaving the country for an abortion

[Banquo's Ghost]

We usually have our discussions on abortion policy in the US context - which might fairly be described as being at the extreme pro-choice end of the spectrum.

Here in God's good Catholic Ireland, we may fairly be described as being at the other end.

Here's a lovely example to wrangle over (http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0430/missd.html).

Girl seeking abortion challenges HSE

A 17-year-old girl who is four months pregnant and whose child cannot survive outside the womb has gone to the High Court to challenge a decision by the Health Service Executive to stop her leaving the State for an abortion.

The girl is in the care of the HSE and is challenging its decision to contact gardaí and not to let her travel for the abortion unless she presented as a suicide risk.

The girl, known only as Miss D, is from the Leinster area.

She found out a week ago that her baby has a condition called anencephaly, which means the baby's brain is not developing properly.

The condition means the child will live a very short time, if at all, after it is born.

After hearing this news, the girl made a decision to travel to the UK for a termination but the HSE asked gardaí not to permit her to leave the jurisdiction.

The High Court was told an order was made in the district court in February putting the girl into the care of the HSE because of the conduct of her mother towards her.

The court heard her father was 'absent from her life'.

She is challenging the district court order in so far as it restricts her leaving the State.

She is also challenging the HSE's decision to ask gardaí to stop her and she is challenging the HSE's decision to refuse to let her travel to terminate the pregnancy unless there was a risk she would commit suicide.

Mr Justice Liam McKechnie ordered that the HSE and the State be notified of the girl's application and the case has been listed for mention tomorrow morning.

See how much fun it is when the state tells you what to do with your body?

[Tribesman]

I wonder how long they will drag out the case through the courts this time .

[Goofball]

Maybe she should have thought about this possible problem before she decided to have sex.

I mean, if you are not willing to carry a baby in your belly for four months, become emotionally attached to it, then be told it's going to die when it's born, then have to carry it for another 5 months, then risk your life giving birth, then watch your baby die, then you really don't deserve to be having sex in the first place.

Silly little hussy...

[Ice]

We usually have our discussions on abortion policy in the US context - which might fairly be described as being at the extreme pro-choice end of the spectrum.

See how much fun it is when the state tells you what to do with your body?

In this specific case it is. I'd approve of an abortion for something like this.

[Kralizec]

That is truly dispicable :thumbsdown:

Could you give some more background info? Like, on what formal grounds are they refusing her to leave the country? Are you obligated to state your reason for temporarily leaving Ireland?

[Papewaio]

See how much fun it is when the state tells you what to do with your body?

She's not an adult.
Her parents obviously haven't had her best intentions at heart when she was put into state care.
So I think this is to specific a scenario.
In the general sense the state has a duty of care to a citizen and a citizen has liberties. Liberties are rights within the law... so if the law of the land is bad, change them.

The HSE are the guardians of her... which then raises the question how she got pregnant under their auspice? Can she sue them for lack of duty of care.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wonder how long they will drag out the case through the courts this time .

36-40 weeks.

[AntiochusIII]

I'd be amused in a this-world-is-sad kind of way if the courts of Ireland will drag the case so long that the girl died giving birth or something.

Abortion abominagination! :balloon:

[HoreTore]

The HSE are the guardians of her... which then raises the question how she got pregnant under their auspice? Can she sue them for lack of duty of care.

If they tried stopping her from having sex, they should have been sued...

[Blodrast]

Errrrr... isn't THIS the most important factor, which none of you cared to take into account when pronouncing your verdicts - especially against the girl ? :


She found out a week ago that her baby has a condition called anencephaly, which means the baby's brain is not developing properly.
The condition means the child will live a very short time, if at all, after it is born.


I would say that makes all the difference in the world - regardless of the state's wishes...

[AntiochusIII]

Errrrr... isn't THIS the most important factor, which none of you cared to take into account when pronouncing your verdicts - especially against the girl ? :I'd say all of us know that actually, hence why those usually anti-abortion supports this case as well as my own vitriolic comment about the situation.

[Tribesman]

so if the law of the land is bad, change them.

Its been tried and tried , unless it can be proved that the woman is going to commit suicide or is going to die there is no case The fetus under the law has an equal right as the mother has .
A threat to the health of the mother or possible child is not a case , only a direct and provable threat to the mothers life overides the other .


The HSE are the guardians of her... which then raises the question how she got pregnant under their auspice?
She is 4 months pregnant and under HSE care for 2 months .

[TevashSzat]

Well, if she is that desperate, why don't she start acting suicidal.

Seriously though, that is kinda arbitrary refusing an abortion for a baby that will die regardless and which may prove to be a health hazard for the mother

[Xiahou]

Sounds to me like the child is already irrevocably brain dead and has no hope of survival outside the womb. At that point, it seems silly to keep up the charade. :shrug:

[Papewaio]

Its been tried and tried , unless it can be proved that the woman is going to commit suicide or is going to die there is no case The fetus under the law has an equal right as the mother has .
A threat to the health of the mother or possible child is not a case , only a direct and provable threat to the mothers life overides the other .

Is it a 'possible child' if it has no brain?



She is 4 months pregnant and under HSE care for 2 months .

Fair enough, HSE is left having to go by the way of the law of the land I presume... I assume they can't just decide not to... or do they have some ability to decide on a case by case basis on what is best for their charge?

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, this is really tricky.

I'm almost tempted to come out and say she should have the abortion but as Tribes pointed out the fetus has equal rights to the mother (as it should be) so I think we need to find an analogous state in a child or even an adult and compare.

[Rodion Romanovich]

Damn, if the fetus have equal rights to the mother, I should have sued for being involuntarily kept in confined space for 9 months!

[Grey_Fox]

This is the definition of the term 'exercise in futility'.

[rory_20_uk]

Well, this is really tricky.

I'm almost tempted to come out and say she should have the abortion but as Tribes pointed out the fetus has equal rights to the mother (as it should be) so I think we need to find an analogous state in a child or even an adult and compare.

It is non viable tissue, with no hope of becoming a human bieng. It should have no rights whatsoever.

~:smoking:

[Grey_Fox]

Any of you people see pictures of what children with it look like?

[Mikeus Caesar]

I personally find this to be a disgusting violation of her human rights, for all the pro reasons stated above by countless people.


Any of you people see pictures of what children with it look like?

Fire away.

[Grey_Fox]

I don't want to look at them again, just google the term. Like the top of their heads have been caved in.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

A lot of you have probably seen it before, anyway. Remember Nepalese frog-baby? The one in the dish? There was a thread on it here a while back.

Anyway, that baby had anencephaly.

[CrossLOPER]

I don't want to look at them again, just google the term. Like the top of their heads have been caved in.
The tops of their heads were apparently never there to begin with.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Well, thankyou for enlightening me.

I vote for an abortion as well then.

[King Henry V]

Despite my usual anti-abortion stance, I believe in this case an abortion should be performed for medical reasons, which just goes to show that abortions should be decided on a case-by-case study and not some blanket proclamation in favour or against abortion.

[Mooks]

My curiosity was piqued, so I googled it. The babies are like something out of a horror movie. I would kill myself if I looked like that, without a second thought.

[Devastatin Dave]

Despite my usual anti-abortion stance, I believe in this case an abortion should be performed for medical reasons, which just goes to show that abortions should be decided on a case-by-case study and not some blanket proclamation in favour or against abortion.
I agree, sometimes common sense should trump "law".

[Goofball]

Despite my usual anti-abortion stance, I believe in this case an abortion should be performed for medical reasons, which just goes to show that abortions should be decided on a case-by-case study and not some blanket proclamation in favour or against abortion.

Decided by whom, exactly, on a "case by case" basis?

[Grey_Fox]

The court also heard that the girl was told a court order had been granted preventing her travelling when she was taken to see a psychiatrist by the HSE. No such order existed.

...

This morning, the court was told that gardaí informed the HSE last week they had no power to stop the girl leaving the State for an abortion.

The High Court also heard this morning that the gardaí did not intend to try to stop her without a court order.

Mr Fitzsimons said the HSE wrote to gardaí on 26 April to ask them to prevent the girl from travelling.

Gardaí wrote back the same day, and told the executive that they would not and could not stop the girl without a court order.

So, realising there was feck all they could do about it, the HSE just lied to her to stop her going and then blamed the Gardaí. Classic.

Linky (http://www.rte.ie/news/2007/0503/abortion.html)

[SwordsMaster]

Yeah. I walked past the Four Courts yesterday morning. And there was a protest against this kind of idiocy. But the protest consisted of 11 people with 2 plackards. Which just shows how strongly people care about the case.

[Lemur]

Update: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/6639673.stm)

Irish teen wins abortion battle

An Irish teenager has won a High Court battle in Dublin to be allowed to visit Britain for an abortion.

The 17-year old was told by doctors her four-month foetus would not live more than a few days beyond its birth.

She is in the care of the Irish Republic's health service, which had issued an order stopping her from going to Britain.

Abortion is illegal in the Republic except when the mother is threatened by a medical condition or a suicide risk.

Thousands of Irish women get around the ban by privately travelling to Britain, where abortion was legalised in 1967, to undergo terminations.

The Irish Republic has a constitutional ban on abortion, but in 1992 made it legal to receive information about foreign abortion services and to travel for abortions in Britain.

An estimated 7,000 women travel outside Ireland each year to terminate unwanted pregnancies.

The High Court has now ruled there were no statutory or constitutional grounds for preventing the teenager, known only as Miss D in court, from travelling to Britain for the operation.

Legal arguments

Justice Liam McKechnie had heard arguments over the past week from three sides.

These were the girl and her estranged mother, who both approve of the abortion; her legal guardians at the Health Service Executive (HSE) - the republic's national health service, which opposed the abortion at first but has since altered its position; and lawyers appointed by Attorney General Rory Brady to represent the right to life of the foetus.

The teenager comes from the Leinster region and has been under the guardianship of the HSE since March.

Doctors said Miss D's foetus has anencephaly, a condition which means that a large part of the brain and skull is missing.

Babies with anencephaly live a maximum of just three days after birth.