View Full Version : Charges, Total Frustration II
Cousin Zoidfarb
05-07-2007, 20:16
Getting your cavalry to charge is too difficult, it takes away the fun. It's also infuriating to see the AI do a successful charge up a slope. I had a charge seemingly broken up by a sole crossbowmen in a disordered unit. Disordered units breaking up charges doesn't make sense realistically. I have never been able to charge in the flank or in the rear, unlike Rome.
IMO you should get a charge if:
1. The terrain is relatively flat and without obstacles
2. The target is not running away from you (any other movement is ok)
3. You keep relative cohesion
4. Your unit isn't tired
There should be a tutorial in the next patch or somewhere
RussianWinter
05-07-2007, 20:26
I've usually managed success with the "enable guard mode" option checked, and making sure the unit is fully reformed before charge.
However, this still doesn't help when a unit is "screened" by say, dispersed routing crossbowen or a few skirmishers. All the more frustrating because the charge should logically trample them over.
Not sure if 1.2 fixes this, as I haven't had the option to really try much.
TeutonicKnight
05-07-2007, 20:54
I'm using 1.2, and I'm having a harder time with charges than I did with 1.1/Carl's fix.
Last night, I set up a "perfect" charge, and all my Templars did was walk up and start bonking with their swords. Very disappointing.
On the other hand, I've had occasional success now with the double-click method. At least they get there faster, and occasionally one or two will deploy a lance.
Bob the Insane
05-07-2007, 21:34
Last night, I set up a "perfect" charge, and all my Templars did was walk up and start bonking with their swords. Very disappointing.
I think if you command an attack from within the charge range (which is substantually longer in vanilla than in Carl's mod) then they will simply trot into contact and will not charge...
The same applies to infantry but with a shorter charge range obviously...
At least this is what I think I have observed
The other thing that's really obnoxious is when you single click to charge, the units will walk up and when they hit the charge distance, they stop, THEN get going... From my reading, this isn't at all how it works. Oddly enough, with all it's historical inaccuracies and whatnaught, the heavy horse charge in Braveheart (where they get skewered on the poles, twice as long as a man, some men are longer than others!!) where they proceed in a "formation" and then lower/couch lances and go full tilt at a certain range is just about how it worked. My guess that the reason they did this is to let a unit "get back in formation" before charging (and getting out of formation in the process) due to how they implemented cohesion mechanics, which in M2TW are terrible. v1.2 has some slight improvements, but not much.
Cousin Zoidfarb
05-07-2007, 21:52
i agree about the trampling russian winter that's what would happen in RTW. Can anyone charge a unit already engaged in the flank or rear?
Cousin Zoidfarb
05-07-2007, 21:56
I suspect when you single click to charge it is the unit's 'may charge impetuously' trait that makes the AI take over the charging.
I have ran over a long distance on the battlefield with my bodyguard unit into an enemy only to get a perfect charge. It seems quite out of the players control.
This should be fixed.
The real answer to this and the root cause goes back to multiplayer vs. single player. Going back to CA's earlier comments before the game was released and slightly after, it was revealed that the new charging mechanics were implemented mostly due to the MPer's complaints about cav spamming in MP games, the new charge mechanics were an attempt to "balance" that out. Part of the problem is that many (most, if the impressions I am getting from the overall community are accurate) of us SPers hate it, and don't want half of the things that the MPers want.
The real answer and the win-win situation is that the SP and MP game mechanics should have been separated awhile back. Hopefully this will be the case in the next game.
Bob the Insane
05-07-2007, 22:21
You can do a charge without the stop pause thing...
Allow you unit to walk towards to the target and shortly before the charge range you instruct the unit to start running. Now when it hits charge range it will transition from run to charge without pausing... I picked this up from observing the AI...
You can do a charge without the stop pause thing...
Allow you unit to walk towards to the target and shortly before the charge range you instruct the unit to start running. Now when it hits charge range it will transition from run to charge without pausing... I picked this up from observing the AI...
By that logic, you should only get the 10% charge. Honestly though I can't tell that much of a difference between the 10% charges and the single click charges now in v1.2, which leads me to believe that it's either A> broken or B> been removed from the game. Then again I'm running the game on my horrible work laptop with all settings as low as they can get, so it can be hard to tell. :shame:
Bob the Insane
05-07-2007, 22:43
hmm... good point...
I will play some more...
Edit: After messing around with some Templars against a unit of Highland rabble (on defense) I found that the ten percent charge is still in, but it you you need to make a bit of an effort to disrupt the formation of your cavalry (or any other unit I imagine) before giving the attack order. If you simply run stright at the enemy so you unit maintains it's formation then it will charge normally...
Edit: After messing around with some Templars against a unit of Highland rabble (on defense) I found that the ten percent charge is still in, but it you you need to make a bit of an effort to disrupt the formation of your cavalry (or any other unit I imagine) before giving the attack order. If you simply run stright at the enemy so you unit maintains it's formation then it will charge normally...
I am actually rethinking this a bit. The way CA described it, it wasn't exactly linked to single or double clicking, someone else said that (positive it was a CA person) but I don't remember who it was. Here's the actual text from the blog post:
The triggers for a formed (powerful) charge include:
Line up the cavalry parallel to the target
Utilize a long straight run up toward the target
Prioritize stationary targets as moving targets may result in a last second turn and reform The triggers for an unformed (weak) charge include:
The unit is spread out just before charging
The charge is issued while too close to the target
The charge is issued when the unit isn't facing the target
The player changes direction just before the charge• The target moves and turns just before being hitAt this point I'm not sure that the single vs. double click is valid anymore, it appears that it might now just adhere to the above rules is all that's needed. If you can keep your cav in formation while running (which is damn hard to do) and single or double click, you'll get a "powerful" charge.
gardibolt
05-07-2007, 23:12
How can you tell what the charge range is? It seems to be different every time I do it, judging by when the horn sounds.
I've given up on single clicking; it just doesn't work. As they're sauntering to the target, it usually moves away, resulting in no charge at all. Double clicking gets me a well-formed charge about half the time anyway.
Agent Smith
05-07-2007, 23:39
I am actually rethinking this a bit. The way CA described it, it wasn't exactly linked to single or double clicking, someone else said that (positive it was a CA person) but I don't remember who it was. Here's the actual text from the blog post:
The triggers for a formed (powerful) charge include:
Line up the cavalry parallel to the target
Utilize a long straight run up toward the target
Prioritize stationary targets as moving targets may result in a last second turn and reform The triggers for an unformed (weak) charge include:
The unit is spread out just before charging
The charge is issued while too close to the target
The charge is issued when the unit isn't facing the target
The player changes direction just before the charge• The target moves and turns just before being hitAt this point I'm not sure that the single vs. double click is valid anymore, it appears that it might now just adhere to the above rules is all that's needed. If you can keep your cav in formation while running (which is damn hard to do) and single or double click, you'll get a "powerful" charge.
I think we had this discussion in another thread about that same quote, and I have rethought the whole thing, too, based upon what the one psoter said (I forget his name).
I think it's just a function of the factors all being right. I think people may have had more success single clicking rather than double because it probably keeps unit cohesion better and allows the unit to reorganize when the enemy moves, etc.
The more I played it, I did see a few times where I double clicked and got a good charge off. I think that, from my experience, there is just a much better chance of all of the factors being in your favor if you single click...
How can you tell what the charge range is? It seems to be different every time I do it, judging by when the horn sounds.
I've given up on single clicking; it just doesn't work. As they're sauntering to the target, it usually moves away, resulting in no charge at all. Double clicking gets me a well-formed charge about half the time anyway.
If you single-click and then run, it's far more consistent than that. The single click means the unit, usually at a stop, gets a few non-running moments to get back in formation (they take off at vastly different times for me usually, so the unit is immediately messed up when it starts marching). Then when they recover formation, switch to running. It's a seamless transition, and they stay in formation generally. If you have some space to work with, though, you can lazily double-click, and they recover the formation in time to hit the charge. The single-click-then-run is more useful for shorter areas where they won't recover from the initial jostling if you just double-click.
I too gave up on single-click charges a long time ago, they obviously aren't the deciding factor in whether or not your charge goes off. All it does is make your knights take forever getting to their target...
I've also had some luck using shift-double-click to set waypoints. Mostly, to pull out and recharge with cavalry. If you shift-double-click a suitable distance away from the enemy unit, then continuing to hold shift, double-click on the enemy unit and release shift, you can generally get your knights to pull out and recharge without even stopping at all. It sometimes looks really messy, but I've had good luck getting the charges to go off anyway. It may have something to do with the unit never stopping its motion.
FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 02:14
You know what I did once that was really funny? I had a depleted elephant artillery unit (1 elephant and its rider, no arty) and ran it into the enemy townsquare. Charged the unit at the far end, disengaged for a meter or so and charged the unit at the other end of town square seamlessly and rinse/repeat.
By the time the elephant died, it had taken some 140 enemies with it :D
The townsquare was very crowded though, but its kind of funny that you can charge while engaged. Works for general cav too btw, just that those tend to rout when down to few men.
pike master
05-08-2007, 06:36
charges are perfect now. devestating versus light and missile infantry. good against heavy infantry and no good versus spears( the way it should be) not really but since theyve ruined pikes in the game its good to have something that can fight it out with cav and still hold their own against infantry.
Seikales
05-08-2007, 07:05
Well, logic says, a full charge with lances and all should be real hard, and I would say more or less require a flat land (or slight downslope). What is the real issue here is that the cavalry has the advantage of height and speed against other units, which is extremely usefull when units loose cohesion or face directions other then the cavalry approach.
Charges with lances did not mean to slaughter all the enemies. What it was for was to disrupt the enemy. Multiple charges were possible with supporters close by. A galloping knight with his sword at hand is a very dangerous opponent even without the lance. What is stupid in the game is having around 50 knights in one units, charging in 4-5 rows. What kind of an attack is that? The knights who follow the front line will trample or hit his own men, cause whatever the opponent is, you just can not keep running through them like they are made of cotton. Slowing down and even stopping is inevitable.
The real problem in the game is not the charge, but the normal attacks, where a bunch of cavs fight the front guys, others waiting behind. They should move in, push units away, if possible open paths for others and so. Height is a great advantage in medieval battles, so use them, use their horses massive bodies. Infantry on the other hand should form islands themselves, clutching together to limit the knights movement.
I realy hope the second patch is worth it...
Charges are not difficult at all, you just have to know what to do. My policy as follows:
1. First off I start by, as was stated by CA, keeping my unit as parallel as possible to the desired target.
2. Once I have gotten to the desired distance to begin preparing my charge I simply click on the enemy, using walk if I need the unit to march slowly for reformation or what not, or run if I need them to meet the enemy quickly.
3. If my unit is marching slowly instead of quickly I wait until my unit is within around 50 game meters away from the enemy, click run, and watch the fun!
After you have used charges enough it should never be a problem to perform a charge anywhere in good conditions. The only time I have ever had the slightest trouble is when my men are fighting in arid/desert terrain. And the only problem there is if the enemy is situated on a hilly area and/or there are many rocks blocking a good path to charge.
Tschüß!
Erich
Firstly, single click vs double click doesn't make any difference to charge. Single click just walks a cavalry unit to the charging distance, double click runs. People might get the impression single click is better simply because the unit is more likely to keep in formation and adjust to follow a moving target.
You're more likely to get a successful charge if you do the following:
Ensure your cavarly is facing the target and likely to hit the target as a whole, i.e. without clipping a corner and more importantly without clipping another unit en route.
Ensure your cavalry is in formation and not strung out or already engaged/ partly engaged with another unit.
Ensure that when you give the order, the cavalry unit is not too close to the target, i.e. within its own charging range.
Ensure the terrain is suitable, i.e. flat and without obstacles like trees or large rocks, which will interfere with formation. Steep slopes are also not conducive to good charges and snow tends to slow a cavalry unit down lessening its impact.
Having said all that I think it's a shame CA toned down the mass of the mounts, and made the mass of armoured cavalry no different from that of a bareback pony. By doing so they've lessened the impact and ability of cavalry to punch through infantry ranks. I would have much prefered them to tinker with the raw attack or charge values rather than reducing the mass.
FactionHeir
05-08-2007, 12:00
Cavalry that is engaged can still (devastatingly) change. Tested that :p
crpcarrot
05-08-2007, 15:12
Getting your cavalry to charge is too difficult, it takes away the fun. It's also infuriating to see the AI do a successful charge up a slope. I had a charge seemingly broken up by a sole crossbowmen in a disordered unit. Disordered units breaking up charges doesn't make sense realistically. I have never been able to charge in the flank or in the rear, unlike Rome.
IMO you should get a charge if:
1. The terrain is relatively flat and without obstacles
2. The target is not running away from you (any other movement is ok)
3. You keep relative cohesion
4. Your unit isn't tired
There should be a tutorial in the next patch or somewhere
i seem to get charges even when i'm not trying in 1.2 its tooe asy if u ask me. maybe you need a bit more patientce
i seem to get charges even when i'm not trying in 1.2 its tooe asy if u ask me. maybe you need a bit more patientce
...or a bit less single-clicking! Easy has been my experience too, but since this is the main function of heavy cavalry, I'm not going to gripe over being handed the easy button on a silver platter. The game should be about tactics, after all, not about having to constantly tweak units to make them do their jobs. Currently cav even go off most of the time in city streets if you make sure to put them in a formation slim enough to fit. They will fail on the crooked streets due to pathfinding making the cav turn a bit (many times I lined the cav up so they could get through running straight, but they decide to run along the crooks in the street anyway, wrecking the charge), but straight ones are pretty much a no-brainer.
Doug-Thompson
05-08-2007, 16:26
...or a bit less single-clicking!
This must be why I've never suffered much from this problem. I'd rather have my cavalry attack in time with a sloppy charge than get there too late while forming up. So I always hit "run" during the attack — and get decent charges anyway.
Cousin Zoidfarb
05-08-2007, 16:34
I count roughly 8 persons agree with me, 8 are happy with the charge the way it is and 2 seem to have not taken a side.
Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear with 1.2. It seems that not only does the attacking unit need cohesion but so does the defender.
If this was made to stop cavalry-spamming in MP then why didn't they just make a limit to the type of units you can have in your army, like they do with miniature wargames army lists.
The requirement that the target be parallel to yours doesn't make sense realistically, why in real life would a cavalryman be unable to charge the flank (perpendicularly) or obliquely?
I played the tutorial to see if there were instructions but there isn't.
Maybe it's easier to charge in wedge formation. In any case this is unsatisfactory to quite a few gamers, so I think at the very least a step-through tutorial should be included, perhaps in 1.3 or the Kingdoms expansion. If not a revision of the process.
Cavalry that is engaged can still (devastatingly) change. Tested that :p
It is actually surprising the very small amount of distance sometimes needed to trigger a charge. I can recount several times where I have charged an enemy formation, fallen back maybe only 10 game meters and clicked on the enemy again just to have my men grab their lances from thin air and charge again.
Tschüß!
Erich
rebelscum
05-08-2007, 16:50
Charges with lances did not mean to slaughter all the enemies. What it was for was to disrupt the enemy.
Historically it was to make the enemy turn and rout.
Cavalry Officer: Ok chaps, now you are all 'finally' back in line, this time were going to get it right .. *looks questionly at rabble of horsemen* ... yes. We form up neatly opposite the enemy. We then start trotting slowly towards them. When we get within range . I will blow the horn .. and .. we charge ..
Cavalryman #1: erm.. Sir .. Sir ,
Cavalry Officer: Yes, what is it now*sighs with exasperation*
Cavalryman #1: How do we know when we are in range ...?
Cavalry Officer: Like I said before .. when I blow the horn ..
Cavalryman #2: And that sounds like?
Cavalry Officer: Like a horn dammit .. listen .. *tarantaraaa*
*Half the cavalry take off running and in multiple directions*
Cavalryman #1: Sir .. sir. Do we charge now then?
Cavalry Officer: *sobs* ..
I take exception to multiplayers being blamed for the way charge works in M2TW. No multiplayer wanted the excessive micromanagement of the weak/strong charge in the present system. Why would they since you can't pause multiplayer battles? There was nothing wrong with the way charge worked in mtw/vi v2.01. A strung out cav unit could still charge, but it wasn't as effective in routing the target unit because you didn't get a lot of kills within a single combat cycle. You could charge a unit whether that unit was stationary, moving or engaged and hit it from any angle, and do it from a walk or a run. What multiplayers requested was some kind of infantry that can stand up to a frontal cav charge, which is historically accurate, so that the battles don't become cavalry dominated.
Cousin Zoidfarb
05-08-2007, 17:00
I count roughly 9 persons agree with me, 6 are happy with the charge the way it is and 3 seem to have not taken a side.
Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear with 1.2. It seems that not only does the attacking unit need cohesion but so does the defender.
If this was made to stop cavalry-spamming in MP then why didn't they just make a limit to the type of units you can have in your army, like they do with miniature wargames army lists.
The requirement that the target be parallel to yours doesn't make sense realistically, why in real life would a cavalryman be unable to charge the flank (perpendicularly) or obliquely?
I played the tutorial to see if there were instructions but there isn't.
Maybe it's easier to charge in wedge formation. In any case this is unsatisfactory to quite a few gamers, so I think at the very least a step-through tutorial should be included, perhaps in 1.3 or the Kingdoms expansion. If not a revision of the process.
rebelscum
05-08-2007, 17:18
Yesterday i got my first successful charge in the rear
So you were a rear end virgin before that?
:clown:
Wow... all joking aside, I can't believe you have such difficulty with it. I do insane things like set 3 waypoints via shift-double-click, and end with a 4th double-click on a unit, and my knights seem to still get their charges off just fine. 1 waypoint before the charge, to set the knights at an optimal position, is pretty much mandatory for me now. I can't even begin to imagine what you are doing to make it difficult... unless you simply start them too close to the target unit. The only thing I've found to really wreck a charge is if you're too close. Cav begin a charge at 45 meters IIRC, and to give them enough room to group up right you probably want at least 60. If you're charging from the rear you should have plenty of space, so if there's any question try giving your cav a much larger approach: they're fast enough that they cover the extra ground quickly anyway.
I take exception to multiplayers being blamed for the way charge works in M2TW. No multiplayer wanted the excessive micromanagement of the weak/strong charge in the present system. Why would they since you can't pause multiplayer battles? There was nothing wrong with the way charge worked in mtw/vi v2.01. A strung out cav unit could still charge, but it wasn't as effective in routing the target unit because you didn't get a lot of kills within a single combat cycle. You could charge a unit whether that unit was stationary, moving or engaged and hit it from any angle, and do it from a walk or a run. What multiplayers requested was some kind of infantry that can stand up to a frontal cav charge, which is historically accurate, so that the battles don't become cavalry dominated.
It's not really about blame Puzz, it's just the way the cards fell. Nobody is saying the MPers wanted things to be more complicated, I don't think anyone did. The thing MPers did want though, and were extremely vocal about, was a solution to cav spamming as you stated. This, unfortunately, was CA's response. The bottom line remains that many features and balance requests that MPers want, SPers do not want, and the TW series is predominantly SP and CA hasn't indicated to us now or in the future they will separate SP and MP mechanics.
In SP (which I play the most) I want my heavy cav insanely powerful in the charge as they were historically, my heavy spears\pikes\anti-cav polearms to mulch all cav when braced and prepared, dismounted knights to pwn pretty much all other infantry when on foot, my women loose and my liquor strong. That's my idea of "balance". MP is a different story though.
So you were a rear end virgin before that?
:clown:
Do you have ANY idea how hard it is to get a good, penetrating rear impact? There's a lot of straining and effort involved here.
:hide:
I myself am quite satisfied with charging. It is very simple to do, no difficulty at all. Though when I first played the game I was almost certain you could only charge once, that calvary would lose their lances after the first charge. It is a pity that is not the case.
So you were a rear end virgin before that?
:clown:
Clowns: The tail-end of all jokes.
Though when I first played the game I was almost certain you could only charge once, that calvary would lose their lances after the first charge. It is a pity that is not the case.
Now that would be an interesting mechanic. The charge with the lance would have to be devastating of course, but it would make knights rather more specialised. Not sure how the AI would cope...
Enough with the rear end jokes ~;)
And I like that 1-charge idea, though doubt that the AI could handle it. That one charge should demolish its target, though....
Once you did use your lances they would be gone but you could still perform the regular weak charge with swords. I think the effect on the AI would not be that much, they never really seem to use the calvary charge with lances very good anyway. Usually when they charge my lines they are either very close and/or I have a chance to counter charge them before they can charge, causing their lance charge to peter out before it starts.
Tschüß!
Erich
crpcarrot
05-09-2007, 10:36
@ OP are u looking for a devestating charge each time you do it?? is that what u mean when you say you cannot sucessfully charge?
cavalry seem pretty powerfull in the game right now anymore charge power and it will be a no brainer. all you have to do then is have a a couple of cavalry units in reserve and any time you look like losing a fight just send them in and instant rout the enemy. i dont want to go back to RTW instant routs. it may have been fixed by 1.5 but i'll never know cos stopped playing that way before.
i too like the idea of the one charge. maybe make the first cherge about 75% sucessfull irrespective of formation blah blah and then we get the usual charge. realistically most of the lances would have split or been dropped after the first charge anyway. and where the hell do they put them when they get into melee lol
and where the hell do they put them when they get into melee
They just tuck them into their armor silly.
Tschüß!
Erich
crpcarrot
05-09-2007, 13:42
They just tuck them into their armor silly.
Tschüß!
Erich
:laugh4:
and where the hell do they put them when they get into meleeHaven't you heard of fold up lances? :inquisitive:
Kids these days :laugh4:
OK, my final evaluation. I strongly suspect that CA entirely removed the old charge mechanics, of the "stop at 10%", or it's broken. I've had some pretty ugly, badly (un)formed charges that result in 50-60%+ casualties on impact. Truth be told I somewhat prefer it the way it is now, I very much enjoyed the older RTW-style charge mechanics... and overall unit/combat mechanics for that matter.
pike master
05-09-2007, 13:53
i do think its not right that cav cant beat sword and shield infantry right off. that they have to duke it out and almost get destroyed taking them down. while they actually have better luck beating low end spearmen.
i do think its not right that cav cant beat sword and shield infantry right off. that they have to duke it out and almost get destroyed taking them down. while they actually have better luck beating low end spearmen.
I gotta disagree with you there a bit Star Captain Feline.
If I take what I think CA's intent was with the low end spearmen, say for example the Town Militia and Levy Spearmen variants, they are essentially peasants with a little bit better weaponry. Definitely not a heavy or long spear, probably just something cheap that was slapped together. Add a low quality shield, some minimalist training, remove the pitchfork and you've got a glorified peasant. Now take the Dismounted Feudal Knights. The special forces and walking tanks of their day. Born and bred killers who are sporting the best armor, swords, and shields of the time, and throw on top of that a lifetime of practice and training. If you take all the above as the accepted perspective, it's then no wonder that the low end spearmen get trounced soundly in melee with heavy cav, and the S&S knights do much better. Light cav is another story all together.
I still think light cav is far, far too powerful in charging anything except low end missile units and peasants, and in terms of melee they should get absolutely eaten alive by mid-to-high level spearmen and armored units like knights and swordsmen. Even low end spears should do pretty well against light cav IMO. Haven't tested light cav enough in v1.2 to form a new opinion about it yet, but i'll do that later.
:balloon2:
Cousin Zoidfarb
05-09-2007, 23:09
I see a lot of people are ok with it now. But a good amount are not. I just think a tutorial from the devs should be done.
The multiple charges can be justified by the fact that historically a banner of knights also included retainers who supported the knight, held his weapon and so forth.
rebelscum
05-10-2007, 13:14
I wish they would introduce a slow motion mode so I can work out exactly when the charge starts.
Both single click and double click charges seem to work fine.
I tested it out with mailed cav and templars. I think the better the unit, the more likely it is to get into a charge.
Empirate
05-10-2007, 14:05
While reading the first half of this thread, I had the same idea as Fußball: Lances should be good for only one charge. And I don't buy the retainer argument: Missile troops should also have unlimited ammo, then! Even specialist missiles like javelins or naphta...
But there would be one huge difficulty for cavalry charging only once. Namely, the very first time they see any action they'd either use their lances or throw them away. You'd have to save a unit of cav from fighting at all if you wanted to use their charge later in the battle. If they were attacked before that, they'd have to throw away their lances to draw swords/maces/whatever, and they'd not be able to get their lances back later.
Still, I think it'd be nice if lances (or pikes on pikemen units, for that matter) didn't just pop out of thin air anytime the CPU decides the unit is formed up enough to employ lances again. Maybe if lances/pikes worked like siege equipment in that you could lay them down and later retrieve them at the same place... that would be cool! Of course, if you don't want your men to run all over the place searching their lost/misplaced/dropped/forgotten lances, this would have to be as a bundle of all the lances in the unit.
"Private Hijinks, where is your lance this time?"
"Sir, I dunno Sir. I must have let it lying around somewhere over there..."
Wouldn't it also be cool to have the whole train with camp followers, retainers, servants, shieldbearers etc. in the game, too? You'd always have to have an eye out for some enemies getting to it and looting it (meaning you'd lose fighting men after the battle due to equipment loss, or that you'd no longer receive ammo and lance supply on the battlefield). These train people would have to guard any prisoners you took (who would have to be marched back to camp by their captors) (and couldn't be too many for your people to guard), and in a pinch they'd be able to fight, too.
This is one thing I don't really miss, but would enormously enjoy if it were in the game: The supertactical, substrategic level. Say, you brought a full stack over to where the French are invading your territories. Zoom in: You're now in a small region, and the French would be about somewhere, and you'd need to find a good place for a battle, and keep an eye out for the French using scouts, and you'd also need a good place to leave your baggage train - not too far away from where you expect to fight, but not too close either. This would all take place before the battle proper, and you might decide to attack the French while they're still setting up camp, or find and fortify a narrow passage using not only troops, but also wagons tied together, or take too long and be caught with your pants down because you didn't employ scouts. Cool? Sure. Practical? Unfortunately, less so...
i do think its not right that cav cant beat sword and shield infantry right off. that they have to duke it out and almost get destroyed taking them down. while they actually have better luck beating low end spearmen.
This is not my experience. I was careless enough to get a walking unit of armoured swordsmen charged in the front by an AI unit of chivalric knights. My swordsmen were down to 37 men from 90 in about 10 seconds and routed very quickly (VH battles). I can't recall the knights' losses, but suspect they were negligible.
I think heavy cavalry has always been the unit type that you have to respect, even in AI hands. That was true of MTWs small units of royal knights, as well as RTWs uber 2HP bodyguards. The AI can't match a human's grand tactical ability to pull off a massed flank or rear charge, but it can finesse and micromanage its charges well on a tactical level if you don't watch out. I've seen both MTW and RTW AI cavalry pull off lovely nicely angled charges that hit small gaps and scarcely perceptible corners in my front lines. It's the closest TW comes to matching the ability of the AI in fast-paced RTSs to out-click humans.
TeutonicKnight
05-10-2007, 14:39
I agree with Econ. I've had foot knights charged by enemy cav, and charged enemy foot knights with my cav. Both situations result in a lot of dead foot knights.
Heavy cavalry > sword and shield.
Mad Cat, if you are charging with light cav, expect to get beat. They just don't have the endurance for the scrum you get after the charge is complete.
Mad Cat, if you are charging with light cav, expect to get beat. They just don't have the endurance for the scrum you get after the charge is complete.
Yes, I suspect not all cav can easily beat swords. I had a funny little battle against a lone rebel armoured swordsman with a mini-militia army of one archer, one spear and one merchant cavalry. I expected my combined arms force of three units to trounce the single enemy unit and laughed when the pre-battle screen put the odds at 1:1. But the screen was right.
My archers made no impact and the swords were soon tearing up my spears. I charged my militia cavalry straight into the back of the armoured swords. A lot of the swords died but they fought on. It then dissolved into a bitter affair, despite repeated cavalry charges. The spears eventually ran and the archers had to go into melee.
The battle went right down to the wire and I only won with about 7 militia cavalry and half a regiment of archers left. The swords did not run until they had about five men or less left.
I think there is a big morale penalty for losing a lot of men quickly. That's why a good charge can break a unit quickly. In some ways, cav in M2TW remind me of cav in RTR Platinum - fragile if used wrong, but devastating if used right.
pike master
05-10-2007, 15:01
my testing was based on feudal knights versus feudal dismounted knights in a set position, not advancing. the feudal knights barely won. with a few left.
also what is odd is that a thin line of spearmen who are stationary will defeat a heavy cav charge better than when they are in schiltrom.
if my dismounted feudal knights are up against anything less than high era elite cav such as bodyguard or chivilric knights i usually am not concerned with them being beaten.
also to help those who dont know so they dont get exploited by those who have been playing the leaked patch for a while in mp. border horse can still beat heavy knights.
also what is odd is that a thin line of spearmen who are stationary will defeat a heavy cav charge better than when they are in schiltrom.
Is that odd? Schiltrom alows you to have no flank or rear, you can hold off cavalry in any direction.
Charging the same unit, in a line, from teh front means moe spears against teh the cav - worse for the cav.
But charging the line in flank or rear means bonuses to cav, minuses to spears and no counter attack. Spears rout.
I wish they would introduce a slow motion mode so I can work out exactly when the charge starts.
Hold shift key and click the - sign on the timescale to slow time scale.
Tschüß!
Erich
This is one thing I don't really miss, but would enormously enjoy if it were in the game: The supertactical, substrategic level.
This is exactly what I thought was going to be the RTW campaign map. Unfortunately there isn't that fine of granularity. Too bad someone hasn't made a game that blends the infinitely scalable tactical levels of something like Black & White (or the once-and-future Spore) with the battle mechanics of TW.
Vladimir
05-10-2007, 20:36
After reading this thread I paid more attention to my cavalry charges. I'm really impressed. They don't need to be in perfect formation until the point of impact to have lances lowered and get their awesome charge bonus. I like it! :charge:
My opinion so far of 1.2 is that the cavalry charges are no better than they were in 1.1. Pathing is also still a huge problem. Whats funny is that with LtC Mod the cavalry worked better as far as the charges go. Pathing was still a problem but that was due to the main game itself. Why cant CA fix the charge problems and the pathing?
The fact that the modders are doing a better job at fixing the problems of the game tells me that either CA is plain lazy (which I dont think is exactly true although I think their Q&A side of things is sorely lacking) or that it speaks of just how poorly of a game maker CA is. I often find myself asking, "Why am I paying CA for a game when perhaps I should be paying the modders instead for a better game?"
And this problem isnt new with M2TW. RTW also had alot of bugs when it first launched. Alot of bugs that were very obvious that CA seemed to miss and release anyway. It was the RTR mod that made it truly fun to play IMHO.
To be honest this sort of track record doesnt instill me with confidence that I should run out and buy their next TW game. In fact I'm thinking I shouldnt even bother because there's nothing to suggest their business style is going to be any better.
My hat is off to the modders but it fustrates me that I'm paying CA for a game they cant make as well as the modders. Or at the very least fix as well as the modders. :wall:
/rant off
"Why am I paying CA for a game when perhaps I should be paying the modders instead for a better game?"
Good luck with that. By definition, a modder does not make a game from the bottom up. Unless you pay CA for the base game, the modders have no product.
I have every appreciation for the industry, initiative and intelligence of modders in tweaking the files to improve the gameplay and prettying up the graphics etc. But I can also imagine the vast amount of work required to produce a modern state of art game like TW from nothing. Modders can never have the resources to do that and the absence of serious clones (after how many years since Shogun) shows that rival commercial companies struggle too.
Good luck with that. By definition, a modder does not make a game from the bottom up. Unless you pay CA for the base game, the modders have no product.
I have every appreciation for the industry, initiative and intelligence of modders in tweaking the files to improve the gameplay and prettying up the graphics etc. But I can also imagine the vast amount of work required to produce a modern state of art game like TW from nothing. Modders can never have the resources to do that and the absence of serious clones (after how many years since Shogun) shows that rival commercial companies struggle too.
The problem with your thinking here is that M2TW is not even built by the developers "from nothing." As has been pointed out many times, it "borrows" the RTW engine, draws on concepts from both RTW and MTW, and has been touted even by game reviewers as simply RTW with better graphics. With two previous titles to draw on and an engine already built to run the thing, shouldn't this game have been lightyears better out of the box? Instead of making obvious advances forward on existing gameplay, however, M2TW seems to reinvent the wheel, only square this time. As a result, we're stuck fixing things that already worked in RTW, and there's no way to view that except as poor craftsmanship. As much as I hate to say it, CA dropped the ball by not only failing to improve existing features much, but also in actually breaking some that already worked in Rome.
If you really think about it, M2TW may be more akin to a mod than an actual new game, and so one does have to wonder why CA couldn't do it as well as the community seems to be.
Cousin Zoidfarb
05-17-2007, 17:24
Are you guys who are happy with the caharges playing on easy? I just seen the AI charge my retreating missile unit while i can't get the same when the ai target unit budges.
Are you guys who are happy with the caharges playing on easy? I just seen the AI charge my retreating missile unit while i can't get the same when the ai target unit budges.
On the contrary, I'm playing on VH/VH. In any case it shouldn't matter. I am, however, using normal unit sizes, which may be a factor. I'm sure I've mentioned before that higher unit sizes may make charging more difficult due to increased cohesion problems, but I'm mentioning it again in case those of you having problems might have missed it or somehow thought it didn't apply to you. Outside of that and the observations/recommendations I've already made, I don't know what to say except practice makes perfect, and make sure you're using the current game version.
I play VH/VH with huge unit sizes and can pull off charges easily. All you really need is some distance and you can charge all day long with out problems. I'm playing 1.02 BTW. I play using the pause for those who would like to know so I can keep track of whats going on in the battle and give orders effectively. Once you have some practice you can get the right distances need down pretty fast.
I generally put atleast a index finger(from tip to palm abviously) distance on screen and have always successfully did charges and recharges. setting formations to appropriate sizes to avoid abstructions and unwanted enemy formations is a must. Like you can't have a long formation get threw a crowded battle field to charge a unit on the flanks of the enemy line and not get a few guys on the end of your line get cought up on the enemies center.
I find that knights can beat S&S infantry fairly easily, you just cant charge once and keep them in, pull back and recharge several times! Also I agree that militas are rather weak as in I generally charge them with knights even if they have spears and all you have to do is keep them out of melee and pull back for another charge and you can take them down spears or no spears!
I have gotten off successful recharges by simple double clicking away from the guys I just charged and then simply double clicking on the enemy again after I ran so far and my unit is sufficiantly together. If you are far enough away your wayward horses with join up quickly. So all in all put me into the "charges in 1.2 are ok" category.
Silverhawk
05-18-2007, 10:41
I'm not sure I'm totally happy with the hit and miss nature of charges, really. I've certainly gotten a lot of successful "full" charges off and when I do the carnage is really impressive (especially from the rear, or against non-spear units) but to be certain of hitting it cleanly I've found I have to be *so* careful and line things up so well that it takes a lot of babysitting of the units. I like the effects of charges - devastating against non-spears and considerably weaker against braced spears (I adore how charge damage is noticeably reflected onto mounted units by braced spears especially), but just not quite the demand needed to pull it off.
Now, admittedly, I am and always will prefer to be a solid and steady infantry commander (from way back having nothing but Yari and sword Samurai armies). I do really enjoy and appreciate the different challenge of using the light and heavy cavalry armies, but the levels of micromanagement I've found are necessary to be 100% successful seem a little over the top. Perhaps it's needed somewhat to prevent repeated withdraw-and-recharge tactics from over-dominating the field, but with the discussion I've read here I can't see it doing much to prevent that as lots of people appear to have a great deal of ease with pulling off charges.
I wonder if it's worth doing a poll or a questionnaire for the cavalry masters among us to educate us poor ground-pounders just what they're doing differently to us. I know I, for one, would love to learn how to better use my cavalry arm!
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