Self-Criticism Thread

[ajaxfetish]

I'm not arguing everything the USA does is right or even rightly intended. We do have our flaws, and I think it would surprise you all if we started a thread where Americans only posted what they thought America's flaws are. One thing I do note about Americans more than any other country in the world is our willingness to take an honest self assessment. Not that we're good at it all the time, but we're better than anybody else.

I was intrigued by this statement of Don's in one of the Anti-American threads, and I'd like to see it play out. What do my fellow Americans think the problems with America are? In the interests of meeting Don's criteria, please save any positive comments for another place, even though you may have plenty of positive thoughts to balance the critical ones. Also, I don't want to exclude our non-American patrons, so if you're not an American feel free to post, but for the sake of self-criticism post the things you dislike about your own country.

Here's a few things to start us off:


America has had since its foundation a sense of Puritan morality, which can lead to repressive and sometimes stupid policies, such as prohibition during the 1930's and its modern counterpart in the war on drugs, and a peculiar aversion to anything sex-related.

We have an immense inward focus. We think America is the world, and have little awareness of other cultures and opinions.

We have shown ourselves willing to sacrifice the very ideals we hold most dear, as shown by our willingness to support dictators and oppression when they benefit American interests, or by our passing the Patriot Act.

We have a history of absolutely vile treatment of Native Americans.

We have an incredibly materialistic culture, mirroring the 'America is the world' idea with one of personal selfishness, often eclipsing ethical treatment of others, such as in the case of Enron executives. Related to this, we have an enormous rich-poor gap when our traditional strength comes from the middle class.

As a nation that strives to be an example of Democracy to the world, we have terrible voter turnout, little awareness of candidates and issues, and a feeling as average Americans that our vote doesn't really matter.

Those are the first to spring to mind anyway.

Ajax

[Don Corleone]

We have an incredibly limited talent for foresight and for us, long-term policy is three years.

We have a terrible penchant for putting things into one of two categories. We seem to have no ability to fathom the concept of 'option C'.

We can at times be rather thin-skinned and seem to believe that the world owes us something for every little thing we do.

We have a mentality that apologies fix everything. While it's good, best of all is to avoid errors in the first place.

We can be overly materialistic.

We seem to have a hard time withholding judgement on value systems that may be different than our own.

We can make good beer or we can make large quantities of it. We seem to be unable to do both at the same time.

We have a bad habit of not remembering services rendered by friends in the past (short term memory syndrome strikes again).

[Vladimir]

We can make good beer or we can make large quantities of it. We seem to be unable to do both at the same time.


:laugh4: One of the quandaries of American existence. Good thing we have our *ahem* "lawless" free market capitalism which allows us to enjoy beer from around the world in whatever quantity we desire. By invasion, if necessary. Just look at the American occupation of Germany for so many years.

[Lemur]

Great idea for a topic, Ajax. Here's a small contribution:


We're far too partisan. Our form of government relies on compromise and finding middle ground, and I fear that the increasing harshness of rhetoric from left and right will make that impossible to achieve.
As stated, our treatment of the Native Americans was genocide, pure and simple. Nothing to be done about it at this late date, but it needs to be understood and acknowledged.
As Don states, we have a serious problem with short-term thinking.
Materialism is a dead end spiritually and philosophically, and yet many of our citizens are overtly materialistic.
We tossed away the principal of habeas corpus, a legal principal that dates back to Magna Carta, without much debate or due consideration.
We prefer slogans to analysis (but that's probably true of every nation).
We're comfortable with all forms of debt, when we should treat indebtedness like a sometimes-necessary form of leprosy.
We have tendencies toward Social Darwinism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_darwinism).
We also have tendencies toward nanny-statism (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanny_state).

[Odin]

1. Americans take a hands off approach to government. Once there in we turn the other cheek for four years, even when they make mamoth errors of judgement that hurt the country.

2. We embrace a two party system.

3. When someone else is right, rather then attain humility we attack an unrelated position.

4. Capitalism has invested us in industries and parts of the world where we arent wanted.

5. Rather then approach 4 with innovation and self investment we remain steadfast in defense of system. (if it aint broke, yet, dont fix it)

6. We are mired in antique alliances and military deployments that are representative of a time past. Korea, Germany, Japan, Cuba we do not need troops there, the cold war post WWII reality is gone (Russia isnt going to invade I dont think).

7. There is no plan to strengthen the infrastructure (physical and societal) of the U.S., its a patchwork of self intrest groups, and politicians getting projects for the home constituants.

8. We are far to generous with foriegn aid, and this has created an expectation that we should be aiding others.

9. We do not have term limits on congressmen, or senators.

10. as a society we have not found the balance between reactionary, and preventative.

[Devastatin Dave]

We're too perfect and worry too much of what idiots around the world think about us.:beam:

[Gregoshi]

Dave, I thought you were supposed to put out fires...:fireman:

[Soulforged]

2. We embrace a two party system.
A two party system is nothing bad. I wish I wouldn't have to deal with endless lists of nobodies before placing my vote. And it's not a joke, multipartidarial systems can be a mess, and can confuse my little brain...

4. Capitalism has invested us in industries and parts of the world where we arent wanted. We don't want some of your industries, not you or your people. It has to do with their tendencies to create a monopoly on little countries wich cannot uphold an anti-monopoly law as you people do in your State.

8. We are far to generous with foriegn aid, and this has created an expectation that we should be aiding others. I believe the main reason for that is not that you're being too generous (wich of course cannot be seen as a bad thing). When you see some famously obscene, richly obscene person on TV donating money to some random cause, you usually take it as a necessity and a moral duty. The same happens at international level, people from poor countries see it as a moral duty that States as bigs as the US donate money, or help in any other way. The fact that you actually helped encouraged many people to believe and have hope again, if you haven't helped that much I fear that what you're saying may have even been stronger.

[Odin]

[QUOTE]A two party system is nothing bad. I wish I wouldn't have to deal with endless lists of nobodies before placing my vote. And it's not a joke, multipartidarial systems can be a mess, and can confuse my little brain...

the 3rd party system in 92 of Mr Perot got us a balanced budget from Mr Clinton. While its hard to have lots of parties, I wouldnt mind a 3rd or 4th that have adoptable ideas.


The same happens at international level, people from poor countries see it as a moral duty that States as bigs as the US donate money, or help in any other way. The fact that you actually helped encouraged many people to believe and have hope again, if you haven't helped that much I fear that what you're saying may have even been stronger.

While you make a fair point, the conditions in the world have changed. I think its in the U.S. intrest to help ourselves first (better school, infrastructure, yadda, yadda). I think the expectation of help is what is at issue, I much rather let someone else have a go at it. We are at the point of it not mattering much anyway, take pakistan for an example the U.S. did a lot for Pakistan with the quake a few years ago, and we were happy too.

That said there are still people in New Orleans clamoring for housing....

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Hmmm. My post in the anti-americanism thread may fit better here. Any Mod who wishes to move it has my permission (to the extent that that matters).

[ShadeHonestus]

Our education system is a system to guarantee future failure.
(seriously considering invitations to Europe to have my children educated)

Our form of government becomes LESS responsive to issues as the information age progresses.

Our people's complete lack of education in History unless one seeks it. Hell the majority of our history educators are athletic coaches simply filling a need. Either that or they are Poly Sci degree holders, which we know are 99% engineering or business drop outs.


edit
I also hate how being "American" is automatic membership into a stereotype by those people around the world who yell from mountaintops against stereotypes. After all my travels and people I've met Americans do take people one at a time as individuals more readily then any population in the world.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Also, I don't want to exclude our non-American patrons, so if you're not an American feel free to post, but for the sake of self-criticism post the things you dislike about your own country.

I'd just like to emphasize the request ajaxfetish made in his OP. Any America-bashing from non-Americans is unwelcome. Citizens of course, may feel free to self-flagellate to whatever degree as is their constitutional right.

Constructive thoughts with context and reflection on one's own country does not of course constitute "bashing".

:bow:

[Adrian II]

@Ajax, Don, Lemur, Odin

We, the Dutch, have all those shortcomings as well. But we don't have the power to turn them into serious errors with repercussions for the entire world.

Exhibit A
We have short memory spans too.
Trouble is we have nothing worthwhile to forget.

Exhibit B
We would love to occupy some country that did us wrong.
Trouble is our armed forces are, um, tied up somewhere in Afghanistan (which is the real deal, in which we have no say whatsoever).

Exhibit C
The only people who hate us are the Belgians.
Trouble is they don't really hate us.

Etcetera

[Geoffrey S]

In Holland, no-one seems to like British food. I never understood that.

[Beirut]

:canada:

We have no intestinal fortitude when it comes to protecting our culture.

Our Prime Minister's nose is inseparable from the backside of the president of the US.

We changed our beer bottles from stubbies to long necks. Utter disaster.

We are as corrupt, inefficient, and apathetic as any nation on Earth.

Our legal system is a sad joke. You can serve more time for public mischief than for murder. (True and documented.)

We'll let any war criminal into the country, then provide him with money, food, and shelter while he consults his fleet of government provided lawyers to fight deportation.

We're for sale.

[mightilyoats]

South Africa:

Our government tends to the corrupt side (and sometimes, the VERY corrupt). Recently there has also been alot of cases of abuse of power.

Our citizens are very scared of individualism. Displaying any characteristics of your own culture may label you as a racist (There are alot of different cultures in this country)

The police and government can do nothing about our dangerously climbing crime rate. I am not even sure they are trying anymore.

Because of the crime (of violent nature) we are losing alot of our skilled people to countries like Britain, Australia and New Zealand. Since 1995 more than 1 million professionally qualified (white) people emigrated to foreign countries.

Some of the gripes mentioned about the USA is also relevant here. e.g. we have a massive impoverished population, a strong number of elite (very rich - 1% of the population) and a middle class that is shrinking at an alarming rate. (I blame this on Capitalism, but that is not for this thread.)

There's more, but for me, those are the serious ones.

[HoreTore]

Why Norway is a horrible place to live:

1. Our cuisine is horrible. Nothing tastes good.
2. We like to think that we have the best food in the world.
3. In fact, we like to think that we have the best of everything.
4. We do not have the best of anything...
5. We haven't had a political discussion on something actually important in years.
6. We're horrible at football.
7. We're rude.
8. We like to get horribly drunk, and thus even ruder.
9. Our public transportation is horrible in most of the country.
10. It's way to cold here.
11. Our national pride is cross-country skiing. 'Nuff said.
12. Our dialects are so different we can't understand each other.
13. We invented Akevitt.
14. We don't make good music.
15. We think we are the best peacekeepers and negotiators in the world.
16. We think the rest of the world cares about what we say.
17. We have way too many racists.
18. We dislike people who don't like rolling around in a ditch drunk.
19. Our road network is inferior.
20. There are too few inhabitants here.
21. Things cost way too much.
22. We don't have a single good national newspaper.
23. The films we make are horrible.
24. We gossip. Way too much.
25. We are technologically inferior.
26. No tourists wants to go here.
27. We don't even want to spend our holidays here ourselves.
28. We believe we have the moral high ground on any issue.
29. We do not.
30. We lack any sense of proportion.

I wish I was french...

[Odin]

@Ajax, Don, Lemur, Odin

We, the Dutch, have all those shortcomings as well. But we don't have the power to turn them into serious errors with repercussions for the entire world.



Yet again Adrian I find myself nodding in agreement. That really is the concept that americans must face up to, when our government makes serious errors, a great deal of the world is impacted. Continually putting in an american perspective devalues the other parties concerned.

Power without responsibility leads to alienation.

[macsen rufus]

Hmmm, what's wrong with Britain?

* educational standards seem to be in free-fall and youngsters today seem to be profoundly uneducated (of course that could just be me getting old ~D )
* we are incredibly poor at learning foreign languages, the stereotype of the Englishman abroad just speaking more slowly and louder when the natives don't undertsand is regrettably true. I'm far from multi-lingual myself, but I can get by in French, Spanish and German (probably Spanish being the easiest as it's my most recent acquisition, the other two are getting very rusty)
* we have problems dealing with alcohol -- a lot of binge-drinking and violence associated with it -- especially when abroad, which is even worse
* community spirit seems to be dissolving, probably because people are more mobile and footloose these days, and society is increasingly atomised
* teenage hoodlums
* the population is too apathetic about politics/governance, or else they're partisan zealots and extremists
* citizens (sorry, SUBJECTS) are increasingly treated as and behaving as CONSUMERS first and foremost, leading to selfishness, impatience and self-importance
* we don't shoot people who use the phrases "Am I bothered?" and "Not my problem"
* too much willingness to shoot people we can't stand..... :oops:

Agh, there's so much more but I've suddenly lost the will to keep breathing (okay I've got a mild hangover and am not up to scratch today :no: )

[Lord Winter]

The bigist arguement against America is a five minute talk with the average voter. With appoligies to Churchill

We focus more on Retoric then data and logic.

The two party system limits us to two veiws and dosn't fully repersent the wants of the states by limiting every state to these two veiws. It also throws out good chairpeople for senate commites not because they are not the most qualified but because they belong to the other party.

Corpreate lobbyism is two big.

A tendiacy to want everything to fix it self intstead of dealing with the problems.

[Soulforged]

We're arrogants in general, but not in the snobby kind of arrogant, it's more like a typical harborman arrogance. The typical "porteño" feels like he's on the top of the world while he's still carrying boxes or jobless and drinking on a bar (this is at least true for the "harborman", that's the person (not necesarily male) who lives by the docks of Buenos Aires). But, worst of all, we're proud of that image...

For that many of us tend to take advantage of tourists, while it's also true that we take advantage of natives.

We tend to make a cult of certain people, usually people who are famous, they don't really need to do anything special. This is derived from a general superstition and fanatism of the ignorant part of the population (wich sadly is also the poorest part). And by fanatism I mean religious fanatism or national fanatism.

This poor people will tend to remain poor because, if the education system on the US is bad, ours is ten times that. Some public schools cannot even remain standing without the patronage of someone. The requisites for universities is very low, and some teachers don't even care about teaching anymore (I suppose this is universal though). Some of them, even if they've the highest income of all in their State, will reclaim better salaries anyway.

People do tend to reclaim better salaries in general with disregard of the rest.

We're usually very extremistic in our behavior. In that context is a good thing that we don't have a very strong sense of democratic rights as a nation.

Perón remains the most important politic figure of all times here, wich leads to every president to seek for a comparision with him. This is serious it actually leads to break ups between members of a same front, party or even those who uphold a similar ideology in general.

For some reason or another (usually corruption) almost every national enterprise ends in failure, this is most certain with little industries wich want to grow up.

Even after all the strikes it has received, the farming sector remains as a nearly aristocratic field, and we usually find some landowners with real politic power. This has been changing though, but for the worst. Now we've two or three persons owning almost all the important national companies (farming or otherwise), or at least managing them. This leads to an oligarchy, sometimes cartels (mainly on the petro-oil field), and many times monopoly.

Many of us only feel that we belong to a nation only when the football team plays. And while this can be good sometimes (the lack of nationalism) it also can lead to self-destructive behavior as a nation.

In general we treat bolivians, peruvians and paraguayans like crap. And for what I've heard we're treated in the same way overseas, wich is kind of ironic. This is pure racism, to the point that those three nationals don't feel like belonging to Argentina in most cases. All of this while some of them also enter this country illegally.

And finally (at least for now)... we don't really have a nation...

[Lemur]

We're arrogants in general, but not in the snobby kind of arrogant, it's more like a typical harborman arrogance.
I always wondered about that. One of my best friends in High School was from Colombia, and whenever someone would behave haughtily or with arrogance, he would mutter, "There's a little bit of Argentina in everyone." I never really understood the reference.

[rotorgun]

As for the United States I could elaborate a large list that would probably bore everyone to death, so I'll sum it up with one description: EGO-CENTRIZM.

[Soulforged]

I always wondered about that. One of my best friends in High School was from Colombia, and whenever someone would behave haughtily or with arrogance, he would mutter, "There's a little bit of Argentina in everyone." I never really understood the reference.
Yep. The arrogance appears more strong when you talk about it. But it's always the harborman, it's not an attitude you'll find on other provinces. However the man will not deny his arrogance, he'll usually spit something like "Así somos" (We're like that) or "Bienvenido a Argentina" (Welcome to Argentina), he'll even seem proud, there's no wish to change this attitude at all, and the problem is that it has become a culture, sometimes a man born in the capital believes that he has to be like that. It's also true that people from outside and inside always forget that the Federal Capital in Buenos Aires is not all of Argentina, even if almost all commerce and job opportunities (and therefore, people) are concentrated in that tiny space. And again is not any kind of arrogance. We usually don't think we're superior to anyone (as a individual or a nation), even more we recognize sometimes that we're the worst, but that makes some of us feel proud in the "I-will-blackmail-you" kind of way...

EDIT: To understand better the idea I can post a frase that's typical here wich illustrates the kind of arrogance I'm talking about- "Cuando vos fuiste, yo ya fui y volví mil veces"- Wich can be translated as "When you went, I already went and came back a thousand times". I think that the meaning is pretty patent.

[AntiochusIII]

Citizens of course, may feel free to self-flagellate to whatever degree as is their constitutional right.What about resident aliens with a penchant at saying "Heil Hitler" with his right hand raised in mocking whenever the Pledge of Allegiance comes up? :beam:

Oh God I hope the Immigration Services don't see this :P

[ajaxfetish]

What about resident aliens with a penchant at saying "Heil Hitler" with his right hand raised in mocking whenever the Pledge of Allegiance comes up? :beam:

Oh God I hope the Immigration Services don't see this :P
As far as I'm concerned, you're an American, Antiochus. You live here, you're here legally, and you're working on citizenship. Chime in all you like.

Ajax

[ShadeHonestus]

Oh God I hope the Immigration Services don't see this :P

:laugh4: The immigratiobn service always knocks twice

[Tribesman]

Worst things about Ireland .
Apart from the deteriorating quality of the porter since Diagio insisted that they and only they can maintain the pubs lines:furious3: :furious3: :furious3:

The expense , the roads , the health service , the corruption and widespread aceptance of corruption ...some people even increasingly admire a politician the more corrupt he/she can be (the damn cute hoor mentality ).
Racism and blaming Britain for anything and everything that ever happened or is going to happen .
Oh yeah , that bollox O'Cuiv and his its gotta be Gaeilge or nothing brigade , hypocritical :daisy: , where did he get the "v" in his name .

Better add having the taxpayer getting screwed with bailing out certian religeous orders when those certain orders messed up in the worst possible and comletely unjustifiable way (though that links back to corrupt politicians wanting the orders land for their special "friends")

[Adrian II]

In Holland, no-one seems to like British food. I never understood that.They don't know what it is. It's that simple. They think British food is fish 'n chips. Once you've tasted a good Sunday roast, a meat and game pie, Irish stew, Cornish pasty or onion and chutney pie, you don't look down on British cuisine anymore.

[Kagemusha]

Finland leads pretty much all the statistics when it comes to suicides. I think that shows that all is not quit as well here,like we are trying to show that things are. I think that is the problem itself. Our culture is not adapted on the modern world. We have a culture of silence when it comes to emotions or facing problems. The traditional way for facing problems in our culture is to just shut up and "take it".
When we have mixed that kind of problem solving mechanics with a tradition of endorsing heavy drinking, the disaster is ready. While we are not relatively high on crime statistics,that also have some cultural reasons. We also have a tradition that police shouldnt be bothered by "minor things" and these pretty much include many forms of drunken violence both domestic and other. I think that these issues are the hardest we have to face and im not going to go into counting other issues we have in here.

[Geoffrey S]

They don't know what it is. It's that simple. They think British food is fish 'n chips. Once you've tasted a good Sunday roast, a meat and game pie, Irish stew, Cornish pasty or onion and chutney pie, you don't look down on British cuisine anymore.
I did win over friends to Cornish pasties when in London, even if they were a pale shade of the real deal. I guess there is hope, then.

[PanzerJaeger]

Americans cannot take casualties anymore. The first gulf war spoiled the populace on extremely low casualties, and now American leaders are hamstrung by the media and an unrealistic expectation of casualty numbers when trying to prosecute a war.