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Shahed
05-10-2007, 20:19
Fellow Soldiers, Sipahi, Knights, Fursan, Guards, Cavalrymen and Women !

This is a roll call.

Answer this call if you:


Often command all cavalry armies.
Favor Missile Cavalry or any Cavalry over all else.
Love Cavalry and everything about it, ingame and historically.
Have a great affection for horses.


It's been a few years since I last did this roll call (2003 IIRC was the last call). I'm doing it again so all of us know who the other cavalry commanders are. Many have left but a great many have arrived. The benefits are primarily so we know each other and can help each other out with tactics, discussion, lists, orders of battle etc. It will also allow us greater ease of co-ordination for community projects, initiatives. Consider it an association of commanders.

Please note you do not have to play all cavalry, all the time, if you do appreciate all cavalry armies, this is the place for you. if you appreciate discussion on all cavalry armies, this is the place for you.

"We cavalry men who had already been in touch with the enemy and had seen something of war, were envied by the men of the other armies."
Manfred Albrecht Freiherr von Richthofen (Killed In Action: April 21, 1918.)
Ulanen-Regiment Kaiser Alexanders des III. von Russland (1. Westpreußisches)

If you wish to be part of this association, please state this clearly in your post !

STAND UP & BE COUNTED ! SALUTE !


Associates

llewellyn
Doug-Thompson
Whacker
King of Kings
Monsieur Alphonse
Valdimir
Kobal2fr
IrishArmenian
gibsonsg91921
Tambarskjelve
PseRamesses
God's Grace
Caelus
Tristan de Castelreng
Odin
rvg
Eng
Czar Alexsandr
Tristerm
Orda Khan
Labareda
Quillan
heisme
Guru
greaterkhaan
Gabicho
Zenicitus
Buckers
Betito
s_tabikha
Valdincan
Cras
Mete Han
Subedei
Jason X
mambaman
phonicsmonkey
Tiberius maximus
The Turk
Mangudai
Lord Ovaat
Gray Beard
edyzmedieval
Fisherking
Death_is_yonder
marrow
Dragunija
LadyAnn
Sinan




Honorary Associates
For outstanding service & achievement in All Cavalry Arms since Shogun Total War.

Orda Khan
Kanuni
Jochi Khan
MagyarKhan
Doug-Thompson
CBR

Please remind me if I forgot someone.

llewellyn
05-10-2007, 20:22
:smg: enemy army :hmg: my cav

Doug-Thompson
05-10-2007, 20:27
:charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge:

TeutonicKnight
05-10-2007, 20:34
I like cavalry. I often bring barbecue sauce for when I am roasting them on my pikes.

Heavy Infantry ftw. :P

Vladimir
05-10-2007, 20:35
Answer this call if you:

Like being defeated by my combined arms armies. :grin:

Whacker
05-10-2007, 20:36
:charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge:

What this guy said

Normally a heavy cav person, but still loves me Cataphract Archers from RTW.

:balloon2:

Shahed
05-10-2007, 20:42
Welcome aboard Gentlemen !

What is/are your absolute favorite cavalry unit/s ?

LOL TK ! A TeutonicKnight without a horse ?. (joke!)

:laugh4: ~;)

Doug-Thompson
05-10-2007, 21:14
What is/are your absolute favorite cavalry unit/s ?

Mameluk Archers: Lots and lots of them.

There are better units man-per-man, but building requirements are low, making them easy to mass. Nice melee too.

Vladimir
05-10-2007, 21:18
Let me clarify. I'm rather apathetic about cavalry in M2. I do like the charges but the Jinettes and missile cav seem softened now. The more disorganized grouping leads to inefficiency and I can't stand that. I want my Jinettes to charge to a unit, form up, unleash their javelins as fast as possible, and get the hell out of there (I love them too much to loose them to arrows). As it is now I have to manually form them up in order to get a decent kill rate.

I'm just experimenting now with armies in M2 but in MTW I had approximately 33% or my army on horseback. The thing is that those 33% did about 90% of the combat. You just can't beat the combination of heavy horse and mounted missile units, but to micro-manage an all cavalry army?!?! GAH! I would use 2-3 units of mounted crossbows per army and turn them into Marine snipers :rifle: . I love fighting the French, they're so great for target practice. :2thumbsup:

The thing is that you can't depend solely on them. Playing the Cumans in XL my reliance on horses made it extremely difficult to fight decent battles west of Poland. You need a solid infantry core and a base of fire from that core to form a combined arms army. Missile cav depletes vulnerable units and draws them out (hopefully running a few archers down in the process) where your heavy cav wait, then your infantry core cuts their heart out. All cav armies are a pain. The Mongols got lucky in Europe and didn’t always fair too well down south.

So in the :smash: and anvil strategy I'm more :smash: than anvil so maybe I'm in. The point is that if you specialize, and you face me, you die :skull: .

Again, still experimenting but I go for any fast horse with javelins, mounted x-bows are second. Heavy cav can't kill me if they can't catch me :charge: .

Whacker
05-10-2007, 21:20
Vards!!!

Seriously, for 800 bucks you can't beat Vardariotai, except maybe with cheap stinky camel gunners. Awesome range, powerful arrows, and they can almost, almost, double as fast heavy cavalry!

:bling:

And now for my impersonation of TeutonicKnight.

Ahem.

:surrender2:

Thank you, that is all.

:balloon2:

Edit - I do gotta admit, Vlad's got a point buried in there. Cav utterly stinks for sieges... OOhhh how I miss my dismounting. :cry:

TeutonicKnight
05-10-2007, 21:29
Welcome aboard Gentlemen !

What is/are your absolute favorite cavalry unit/s ?

LOL TK ! A TeutonicKnight without a horse ?. (joke!)

:laugh4: ~;)

We are all foot knights now.

My horse retired after the M2TW charging issues. :(

Monsieur Alphonse
05-10-2007, 21:37
Its depends who I am playing. When I play the English I hate everything riding a horse. I use a lot of archers and prepare for a BBQ. If i play the Turks, it is HAs all the way. My field army consist then only of HAs and one General.

A true cavalry commander will have the attitude of captain Stark (look for Les Tuniques Blues, its a comic) (commander of the 22nd cavalry regiment). He does not speak to anyone who does not ride a horse. He is the true red blooded charger and knows only one command: ATTACK!!!!!!!!

King of Kings
05-10-2007, 21:38
:charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge: :charge:
CAV ARE THE BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!
well my fav units are kataphraktoi and any light missile cav i just hunt my enemy down with them.

Doug-Thompson
05-10-2007, 21:38
Re: disorganized grouping

Vladimir, do you mean the horrible straggling problem, where one would always get caught in melee, paralyzing the whole formation until that straggler got killed?

The latest patch fixed a lot of that.

Re: Charging

Clearly this frustrates a lot of people. One of the hottest threads on the forum after the patch came out was about cavalry charges.

(P.S.)

Re: Sieges

Q: What was the biggest change for cavalry players in the latest patch?

A: Rookie spies are nerfed. We can't get the gates open any more.

Vladimir
05-10-2007, 21:40
Edit - I do gotta admit, Vlad's got a point buried in there. Cav utterly stinks for sieges... OOhhh how I miss my dismounting. :cry:

:laugh4: Burried!?! Like in a heap of camel dung? :inquisitive:

Vladimir
05-10-2007, 21:43
Re: disorganized grouping

Vladimir, do you mean the horrible straggling problem, where one would always get caught in melee, paralyzing the whole formation until that straggler got killed?


Sometimes, but that was in MTW as well. Mostly it's when I find a unit vulnerable on the wing I double-click for them to attack it. When I return I find the unit spread out over twice the distance it should be. They can't all get a clear shot and they take longer to fire all their javelins. It's counterproductive; I have them for the mobility and their tatics slow them down.

Shahed
05-10-2007, 21:47
Firstly, all discussion is welcome.
Secondly, always consider and respect the company you are in. This is a thread primarily for cavalry fans.

If you have questions we will help you.

I have identified these points of some misconception:


Cavalry cannot be used in sieges effectively.
All cavalry armies need excessive micromanagement. This is opinion but generally for the majority of the population is true. That is what differentiates an all cavalry commander from the rest. He does not consider it excessive micromangement. Of course there is micromanagement but this is not a deterrent.
All cavalry armies are inadequate in themselves and need infantry.
Charge mechanics make it hard to do a formed charge.


These are exactly the kind of points we can clear up for the community, and thereby make our small contribution.

First I would recommend reading Hunters All Their Lives, in the M2:TW Guides forum. I can clear further questions if there still remain any, after that. If I have time I'll try to answer them here later today if I can.

Monsieur Alphonse I understand you would you like to be added to the list ?

Welcome Aboard King of Kings !

Vladimir, I'm not 100% sure if your concepts qualify for this association, but I've added you anyway, in the spirit of goodwill. Welcome Aboard ! I hope with some explanation and support we can clarify some of the finer points on cavalry. If anyone has an objection to the addition of this member, please voice your objection now.

Salute !

Doug-Thompson
05-10-2007, 21:54
Sometimes, but that was in MTW as well. Mostly it's when I find a unit vulnerable on the wing I double-click for them to attack it. When I return I find the unit spread out over twice the distance it should be. They can't all get a clear shot and they take longer to fire all their javelins. It's counterproductive; I have them for the mobility and their tatics slow them down.

OK. Now I'm intrigued. And a pest.

Do you use a line (2-ranks deep) or a box formation (4 ranks), or something in between? I'm not implying that my javelin cavalry do any better. I'm just obsessed.

Doug-Thompson
05-10-2007, 21:55
Somebody call Quillan

HoreTore
05-10-2007, 22:04
[B]What is/are your absolute favorite cavalry unit/s ?

I'm still waiting for my dragoons... D'Artagnan leading his musketeers!

Shahed
05-10-2007, 22:06
I sent Quillan a message.

HoreTore do you have a favorite cavalry unit for M2:TW ?

HoreTore
05-10-2007, 22:17
Cavalry cannot be used in sieges effectively.

That's a very common misconception, and fortunately, entirely false. Cavalry are extremely good in a siege, but you do need a spy. Their strength lies completely in their speed in a siege, not their charge power. First, you can attack all four gates almost simultaneously, allowing you to kill a large number of isolated units. Second, you can strike rapidly at the city center, which will cause the enemy to retreat from their walls, allowing you to kill them very easily as they will try to get to the center and wont stop to fight you, and so will die as they try to run through you. Having an infantry force attacking the main gate is very good, as they will be better at fighting the huge number of enemies in the streets there.

Having a full stack of 15 cav and 5 infantry is a very good army to siege with. Split the cav into 3, and send them to the left, right and back gates. The infantry will attack the main gate.

@Sinan: not really any favourite... But I guess if I had to choose one, I'd choose Famiglia Ducale. BTW, I'm not really a cavalry nut, except the russians and the turkish early period, I only use about 30% cavalry. I'm panicking if my army doesn't have a strong infantry core..

Shahed
05-11-2007, 00:07
Vards!!!

:bling:


Check this mate. (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1537118#post1537118)

The Spartan (Returns)
05-11-2007, 01:42
i the Pope am the Grandmaster of the Teutonic and Templar Orders.

my tactics with cav are as followed: neutralize enemy cavalry with my superior cavalry.(or neutralize any other way) engage enemy infantry with mine and charge the rear. enemy defeated.

i start with 6 or 8 Knights (mixed Teutonic and Templar)

i may vary tactics in different situations.

i hate facing HAs if i have none.

Kobal2fr
05-11-2007, 02:15
Its depends who I am playing. When I play the English I hate everything riding a horse. I use a lot of archers and prepare for a BBQ. If i play the Turks, it is HAs all the way. My field army consist then only of HAs and one General.

A true cavalry commander will have the attitude of captain Stark (look for Les Tuniques Blues, its a comic) (commander of the 22nd cavalry regiment). He does not speak to anyone who does not ride a horse. He is the true red blooded charger and knows only one command: ATTACK!!!!!!!!

Les Tuniques Bleues I believe is called "North & South" in English. Now get back on that horse and stop embarrassing the regiment, Blutch.


As for me... I'd say I like heavy cav, except I totally and utterly suck at commanding it. Which is why I favor the Way of the Pavise Crossbow whenever I can't rely on my usual Way of Having Thrice As Many Blokes You Do, Mate :laugh4:.

I do love to use small, captained all-HAs armies for raiding purposes though. Ride in, plink until quivers are empty, withdraw, repeat next turn. It's not cowardice if you can't win a direct confrontation ! :sweatdrop: :beam:

Caelus
05-11-2007, 03:10
I’ve been in love with cavalry since Shogun (I’m an old Takeda player). Not to mention rampaging throughout Japan as he Mongols!!

The only problem I have with using all-cavalry armies is that I almost feel bad using them; the computer just doesn’t stand a chance.

Shahed
05-11-2007, 03:20
POP QUIZ

Whose slogan is this ?

Silent as the forest, Steady as the mountain,
Swift as the wind, ATTACK LIKE FIRE !

Without using Google Gentlemen !

gibsonsg91921
05-11-2007, 03:27
definitely i am one too.

i love using big ol' cavalry armies to chase down weak enemy armies and beat the everlovin' snot out of em. especially when the enemy king or faction heir or a general is all alone and i can surround and entrap his arse

Vladimir
05-11-2007, 03:28
OK. Now I'm intrigued. And a pest.

Do you use a line (2-ranks deep) or a box formation (4 ranks), or something in between? I'm not implying that my javelin cavalry do any better. I'm just obsessed.

This is more casual observation because I always use enveloping pincer movements (my favorite formation in MTW was the scorpion). Whenever I would get the Jinettes to where I wanted them on the flanks I would reform them in two lines, and single click on the closest unit. After making adjustments to the rest of the army (to ensure that all forces can impact at exactly the same time) I'll find them in ragged formations taking forever to expend their ammunition. This may be do to skirmishing, which I would then disable, and reform them in two lines and have them reengage. They'll launch their missiles much quicker and I can move the 'tail' closer to the claws.

I've read here that a square formation is best for missile cavalry but I want to avoid that. I want high accuracy and a high rate of fire; less danger for my boys, more danger for theirs. I suppose I have a more Byzantine philosophy on missile cavalry than a Turkish one. I really don't care for all that running around. I'd rather tease archers out where I can kill them than have my horses performing circus tricks.

IrishArmenian
05-11-2007, 06:19
Resident Sparapet (Supreme Commander of the Cavalry) reporting!
In M2TW, I feel I prefer the Rus for Cavalry. They have Cossack Cavalry (Good fast archers), Dvor (My all purpose units, great at shooting and getting close and personal with enemies) and Tsar's Guard (Their greatness is indescribable). I also like the Iberian Cavalry, especially the Jinetes!
The Byzantines are also great, with Vards, Latinkon and Kataphractoi.

For Mercs, I prefer Alan Light Cavalry (Possibly my favorite Mercs), Turcomans, and the more for nationalistic reasons but they can also hold their own, Armenian Cavalry.

Tambarskjelve
05-11-2007, 07:21
I love my Cavalry armies. In my usually two-stack pillaging raid force, I keep one all Cavalry for mobility and field battles, and a footpounder lugging the artillery.
Obviously, my cavalry sees all the action.
My favorite unit is the Knights Templar, I have been a fan of the history and myth since I was a child.
My cavalry stack mostly is 50/50 Templars and Turkopoles, and Mounted crossbows in Europe.

Being a former Cavalryman myself (albeit with a mechanized mount) I simply cannot but feel vastly superior to any infantryman.

Deus Vult! :charge:

Shahed
05-11-2007, 07:46
HOOAAH !

WELCOME aboard Tambarskjelve, gibsonsg91921, Kobal2fr and IrishArmenian !

OT:
Tambarskjelve, Good to meet you. Norwegian Army ? unit ? vehicle ?.

Tambarskjelve
05-11-2007, 08:11
Hehe, I was wondering how you knew I was Norwegian, but i understand my nick is a dead giveaway on a history oriented forum like this.
To the point:Norwegian Army, Panserbataljonen, Stormeskadron 4, CV9030

_Tristan_
05-11-2007, 08:38
Having a full stack of 15 cav and 5 infantry is a very good army to siege with. Split the cav into 3, and send them to the left, right and back gates. The infantry will attack the main gate.

Another Cavalry fan responding to the call...

At the moment I must admit I'm quite a fan of Hungarian Cavalry...Horse archers with quite a melee punch... And Hussars (for the look of them)....And Bodyguards...and Alan cavalry...And....I think I will stop here or I will list the entire MTW2 cavalry roster....

@HoreTore : I concur, in my Hungarian campaign, not a single siege has been fought with siege engines, be it castle or cities, and with few infantry, generally missile infantry...

The main tactic I use is to send an heavy cav down a street charging on the enemy unit coming down that same street and then send a fast/light horse (Alan Cav, Mounted Sergeants, Merchant cav Militia) to the back of the unit using a side street... Instant rout...

Use the HA to rain arrows down the central plaza and the Missile Inf to the same effect and it's a victory with almost no losses...

_Tristan_
05-11-2007, 08:52
POP QUIZ

Whose slogan is this ?

Silent as the forest, Steady as the mountain,
Swift as the wind, ATTACK LIKE FIRE !

Without using Google Gentlemen !


I seem to remember from my STW days (and having a fondness for japanese culture) that it was the Takeda clan motto, if I remember correctly...

Ah...All those marvelous Takeda cavalry....My favorite STW faction...

Shahed
05-11-2007, 09:52
Hehe, I was wondering how you knew I was Norwegian, but i understand my nick is a dead giveaway on a history oriented forum like this.


Yeap, the nick is a giveaway. Maybe we'll see him in the Kingdowms expansion ! Who knows.
OT: BTW how many divisions does the Norwegian Army have ?

Tristan de Castelreng je vous souhaite le bienvenue ! et FELICITATIONS !

Welcome and congratulations ! You got it.
It is indeed the Takeda slogan. Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan from Sun Tzu's Art of War.
Which IIRC means Wind, Forest, Fire, Mountain (forgot which order it is in).

Voila votre prix !!! (Here's your prize !!!)
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/M2TW%20Signatures/Takeda_SigL1.jpg
Bear with me I'm learning Photoshop, but any excuse to try is good !
Anyone recognise the image ?

Takeda & Mongols were my favorites in S:TW.

Fußball
05-11-2007, 10:23
I am a calvaryman by nature but I must disagree about full calvary armies. I usually do not make armies with so much calvary. As much as I love my gothic, imperial and teutonic knights, I prefer more balance. I have made 3/4 calvary armies and 1/2 calvary armies before but never full calvary.


Ah...All those marvelous Takeda cavalry....My favorite STW faction...


I’ve been in love with cavalry since Shogun (I’m an old Takeda player).

Good to see so many Takeda fans. I myself also played Takeda. Shingen was my main man! Often I would wait several turns to turn out an heir so'z I could have him commanding a unit of calvary archers or yari calvary in the early game. :smash:



That's a very common misconception, and fortunately, entirely false. Cavalry are extremely good in a siege, but you do need a spy.

As long as you can burst down one gate, calvary can be used easily because of the AI if you want to be a complete cheese. If the AI has no one in the castle/town square you can simply rush your calvary there as the AI pours out to go retake the square. And if they do this all you have to do is position calvary or other infantry in front of the tower/wall exits and maul them as they march out in a neat line.

If they have a unit or two around the gate and they do not rush out into the gate to meet your forces you can usually go around them until you are in a better position to flank. Once you have dispatched the gate units or charged to the square the AI should begin pouring troops off of the walls.

Also, if they do have one unit in the square, all you need do is charge it and maul it. If the first charge does not dessimate enough, make a second charge. By then the enemy should be so cut down and rattled that prolonged melee should be able to crush them with few casualties. I recently had to do this in a crusade. I was forced to split all but my bodyguard plus one unit of teutonic knights and armored spearmen to keep from gaining winning first versus three mere Egyptian units holding Antioch. :furious3:

Tschüß!
Erich

Shahed
05-11-2007, 10:37
Meanwhile I remembered the order of Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan . It is Wind, Mountain, Forest, Fire. Wind defeats the Mountain, Fire defeats the Forest... is the logic IIRC.

This thread is more and more revealing with each post on how people play. We really do need some media to demonstrate because I get the impression since MTW:VI, a lot of the new guys possibly are'nt aware of the options available in this game.

I know at some stage I'm going to have to write a REAAAAALY long post in this thread... maybe tomorow (evasion!).

Tambarskjelve
05-11-2007, 10:55
In fear of becoming increasingly OT in my first few posts, i figured out the spoiler tags.

Sinan:
Why do you ask? Are you planning an invasion?
The fully mobilizesd Army is theoretically 10 divisions strong. The standing army consists of 4 battallions, an armored, a mechanized inf., an IRF batallion, and a royal guard battalion. in addition there are several training units.

Shahed
05-11-2007, 11:03
Tambarskjelve it's good to have you around...

HAHA !!! :D well this is a wargaming forum, and my interest in the modern military is no less than my interest in ancient militaries. In fact today's military is an evolution so ideally we start studying it from the dawn of it's history, to understand and know how the military has evolved. I would'nt have known about your avatar had I not studied miliitary history. And how can we study military history without studying the Scandinavians as a people.

Thanks very much for the info, I asked because I did'nt remember how many there were and I did'nt remember your unit. I have many Norvegian friends and I've studied their military a few years ago. I've heard of many of the units from them as well. Getting old, I forget. Thanks again and welcome aboard !

_Tristan_
05-11-2007, 11:09
Tristan de Castelreng je vous souhaite le bienvenue ! et FELICITATIONS !

It is indeed the Takeda slogan. Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan from Sun Tzu's Art of War.

Voila votre prix !!! (Here's your prize !!!)

Thx a lot for the signature Sinan... will have to had it to my posts ASAP...

As for the order or the Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan, I think it is a sort of vertuous circle, it works whatever the order in which it is listed but it's been a long time since I last read Sun Tzu and I fail to remember exactly....

I didn't recognize the shot in the sig, where is it from ?

Shahed
05-11-2007, 11:56
Thx a lot for the signature Sinan... will have to had it to my posts ASAP...

As for the order or the Fu-Rin-Ka-Zan, I think it is a sort of vertuous circle, it works whatever the order in which it is listed but it's been a long time since I last read Sun Tzu and I fail to remember exactly....

I didn't recognize the shot in the sig, where is it from ?

Sigs
Au plaisir, Tristan. I just made it to add some fun to the quiz. Do you like it ? If you do that's great ! If you want another sig, browse through my 1st gallery here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1517706&postcount=1) and my 2nd one here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1537307&postcount=44), to get a style idea. If you like what you see, you can drop a line here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84054&page=2). I'm learning how to use Photoshop so all requests for sigs help me practice. I've improved considerably over the past few days since I started using Photoshop, this is thanks to these sigs.

Ran by Akira Kurosawa.
The image is from Akira Kurosawa's 1985 film, Ran (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ran_(film)). CA used this film in the Mongol Invasion opening titles. Anyone who likes Sengoku Jidai period will likely enjoy this movie. I loved it ! Have it on DVD (as well as most of Kurosawa's brilliant works). It's a great movie, though it requires some patience for some as it's not a Hollywood style movie. There is a quite a bit of epic Samurai cavalry in this movie.

Ran Trailer on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C58jxwu9vNQ)

And finally, check this trailer from the the Ran No Jidai mod for R:TW, it may back some haunting memories of S:TW. Remember the music !

Ran no Jidai Trailer on YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YI6teSMfOok)

_Tristan_
05-11-2007, 13:27
Of course... RAN, great movie... Watched it several years ago...Lots of samurai butchery...

Thx again for the Sig ... I've seen some of those you've made... Will look for something along a French King line...bearing down on a line of English archers running away...

Fußball
05-11-2007, 13:40
CA used this film in the Mongol Invasion opening titles. Anyone who likes Sengoku Jidai period will likely enjoy this movie. I loved it !

I personally preferred the original movie clip from STW over STW:MI & WE. The clip from Ran was good, but the original clip from STW was better IMO. Also the clip from Ran seemed less creative being that it was originally from a movie.

Tschüß!
Erich

Shahed
05-11-2007, 13:51
Tristan, that's fine, post there if you want something. I can "order" screens as well, from others with high rigs.

FuBball, I totally agree.

EDIT 1: Btw bro, by all cavalry it dos'nt mean only knights. It means bow cavalry, melee cavalry, shock cavalry, javelin cavalry etc etc. Just a quick comment on the first paragraph of your last post. I'll try to elaborate eventually if I manage to pull myself out of Photoshop. Photoshop ! It's the best game EVER !

EDIT 2: ALL CAVALRY COMBINED ARMS REPLAY.

FuBall I decided to share something with you, seeing you have been nothing but a great contributor since you've been around.

If anyone else wants to try this please help yourself.

Í've posted a replay and battle debriefing below. Insert this replay into your replays folder, then watch this replay. IF it works correctly you will see an all cavalry army in action. It's working correctly if in the end the cavalry army loses less than +-90 men. At the end of the battle debrief you will find Battle Result & Battle Statistics screenshots. I think if this works we'll be on the same wavelength. Even if it does not work I'd encourage everyone to read the sequence since this will give you a view of how an all cavalry army can operate.

PLEASE NOTE , this is a DEMONSTRATION replay, so you can ask a lot of questions but keep in mind that the whole purpose of the replay is to successfully demonstrate All Cavalry Combined Arms Tactics.

Please post back and let me know if this replay worked as it should have. It works perfectly on my rig, but we know that the replay function is not reliable.

Bis spater mein Freund.

VERSION M2:TW 1.10 + Carl's Problem Fixer 1.13
EDIT: This replay probably will not work as the replay feature is not reliable and version mismatch.

SETTINGS Late/Very Hard.

UNIT SIZE: Normal

FACTIONS: Sicily vs. Turks

ORDER OF BATTLE

SICILIAN ARMY
1 Late BodyGuard
3 Chivalric Knights
4 Mortars
4 Pavise Crossbowmen
4 Armored Sergeants
2 Dismounted Broken Lances
2 Men at Arms
20 units, 1001 men deployed.

Experience upgrades: none.
Armor/Weapon upgrades: none.

TURKISH ARMY
1 Late Bodyguard
3 Sipahi Lancers
4 Sipahi
3 Turcomen
11 units, 421 men deployed.

Experience upgrades: none.
Armor/Weapon upgrades: none.

NOTES

I made few mistakes.
Basic principles applied correctly: destroy mobility, destroy range, destroy morale.
Basic principles applied in tandem.
All objectives achieved.
Timing is almost perfect.
Good pre battle deployment.
Reserves used well.
The enemy army is ALL elite, top end xbows, elite infantry etc.
Numerical disadvantage, 2.38:1.
Artillery causes fear.


DEPLOYMENT
Initial deployment in 2 Combat Groups.

COMBAT_GROUP_LEFT
BodyGuard, 3 Sipahi_Lancers, 3 Turcomen.

Assigned to:
1st Battalion: Bodyguard + Sipahi_Lancer.
2nd Battalion: 2 Sipahi_Lancers.
3rd Battalion: 3 Turcomen.

I call this group The Thunderbolts (Yildirm in Turkish).
Side note Ottoman Battalions were known as Ortas.
From here forward referred to as COMBATGROUP_LEFT -> BAT_1, BAT_2, BAT_3.

COMBAT_GROUP_RIGHT
4 Sipahi.

Assigned to:
4th Battalion: 2 Sipahi.
5th Battalion: 2 Sipahi.

I call this group The Conquerors (Fetih in Turkish).
From here forward referred to as COMBATGROUP_RIGHT -> BAT_4, BAT_5.

Throughout the battle, battalions in each CombatGroup, and units in each battalion will, shoot, fight and retreat together so as to never leave one of our own units isolated.

We will never leave anyone behind.

As a general rule Lancers will be engaged in heavy melee while missile cavalry will only engage in melee to support Lancers. Turcomen will only engage in melee in reserve support, their main purpose in this battle is support, presenting themselves as a target, and survival. This should largely be the case throughout the battle.

Units will seldom fire at will. In a hard fought battle like this ammunition runs out fast, and shooting causes fatigue. Missile cavalry will only fire, on selected targets, when ordered to open fire.

SEQUENCE OF EVENTS
This should help you see if the replay is playing back correctly.
It's hard for me to tell what happened first but I'm writing this down as best as I recall.

All of this is tactics, one tactic or another is always being applied in every step. Each step is part of a sequence of steps, of an overall plan as detailed mostly in Hunters All Their Lives. Sequence of events follows:

-BAT_1 is deployed center.
-Both armies are stationary.
-Enemy army moves towards COMBATGROUP_LEFT.
-Turk army is stationary.
-COMBATGROUP_RIGHT deployed to flank right and take firing position at the rear of the enemy army.
-Enemy Pavise Crossbows march ahead of the main enemy line to assume firing position on COMBATGROUP_LEFT.
-The entire enemy missile line is moving into isolation.
-BAT_4 changes course to arrive ahead of BAT_5.
-BAT_1 is deployed to flank right and center of enemy missile line.
-BAT_2 is deployed to flank left and center of enemy missile line.
-COMBATGROUP_RIGHT is now approaching enemy's left flank.
-BAT_3 deploys in support of BAT_2, to flank left of enemy missile line.
-COMBATGROUP_RIGHT is now in proximity of enemy's left flank.
-BAT_5 changes course to cover rear quadrant of BAT_4, continuing to move into firing position at rear of enemy army.
-BAT_4 assumes firing position and is ready to fire.
-BAT_4 opens fire on enemy artillery.
-BAT_5 covers rear quadrant of BAT_4, moving to firing position.
-Enemy artillery deploys to open fire on COMBATGROUP_RIGHT.
-BAT_1 is now approaching enemy missile line.
-BAT_2 is now approaching enemy missile line.
-BAT_1_BodyGuard lines up for frontal charge.
-BAT_1_Sipahi_Lancers move to flank left and take charge position at rear of enemy missile line.
-BAT_5 changes course to enhance security gap in between the 2 battalions of COMBATGROUP_RIGHT.
-Enemy artillery opens fire on COMBATGROUP_RIGHT.
-BAT_5 arrives at firing position at rear left of the enemy army and opens fire on enemy artillery, in support of BAT_4.
-Enemy General and 1 unit of enemy Chivalric Knights deploy to engage COMBATGROUP_RIGHT.
-BAT_1 arrives at charge position.
-BAT_1_BodyGuard retreats to increase charge distance, BAT_1_Sipahi_Lancers retreat behind enemy line to increase charge distance.
-BAT_1 charges enemy missile line, impact from front and rear of enemy missile line.
-BAT_2 charges enemy missile line, impact from front and left of enemy missile line.
-BAT_3 opens fire on enemy missile line in support of Lancers.
-BAT_3_Turcomen_1 charge enemy missile line, impact from rear.
-Enemy missile line is annihilated, enemy survivors are routing.
-BAT_3 is firing at will.
-2 units of enemy Chivalric Knights deploy to engage BAT_3.
-BAT_3 presents target to enemy army, shields rear of BAT_1, BAT_2.
-BAT_4 withdraws away towards rear left of enemy army, away from engaging enemy General.
-BAT_4 ceases fire, conserving ammunition and energy.
-BAT_5 withdraws away towards rear of enemy army, as 1 unit enemy Chivalric Knights issues challenge.
-1 Unit of enemy Chivalric Knights changes course towards BAT_1.
-BAT_1 & BAT_2 spread and retreat from impact point.
-BAT_3 circles and retreats towards initial deployment point.
-Enemy Chivalric Knights is in pursuit of BAT_1.
-Enemy Chivalric Knights is moving into isolation.
-BAT_1, BAT_2 commence bracket ] maneuver on enemy Chivalric Knights.
-BAT_3 moves to assume firing position at bracket opening -> ].
-BAT_4 opens fire on enemy General, BAT_5 supporting fire.
-BAT_3 engages enemy Chivalric Knights in delay skirmish, and withdraws.
-BAT_1, BAT_2 complete bracket and charge enemy Chivalric Knights. ]<-
-BAT_3 arrives at firing position at bracket opening, and opens fire on enemy knights, closing bracket with missile fire. =>]
-Enemy Chivalric Knights are destroyed, enemy survivors are routing.
-BAT_4, BAT_5 open fire on enemy artillery.
-Enemy artillery is returning fire.
-24 enemy Pavise Crossbowmen rally at enemy artillery position and open fire on BAT_4, BAT_5.
-Enemy General engaging, BAT_4 withdraws to right rear of enemy army.
-BAT_5 withdraws left rear of enemy army.
-BAT_3 withdraws towards initial deployment position.
-BAT_1 withdraws right, BAT_2 withdraws center.
-BAT_5 returns to firing position.
-Enemy Men at Arms are isolated at right.
-BAT_3 is safely withdrawn from combat.
-BAT_4, BAT_5 open fire on enemy General.
-Enemy artillery position returns fire, supported by surviving enemy Pavise Crossbowmen.
-BAT_1 deploys to charge isolated enemy Men at Arms.
-BAT_4, BAT_5 are taking casualties, status shaken and tired.
-BAT_1_Sipahi_Lancers waypoint right center, charge enemy men at arms, impact from rear.
-BAT_1_BodyGuard waypoints left and center, charges enemy men at arms, impact from left.
-Enemy Men at Arms are destroyed, survivors are routing.
-BAT_2 covers BAT_1, challenges enemy Chivalric Knights (without combat).
-Enemy knights deploy towards BAT_1.
-BAT_2 covers, enemy Chivalric Knights do not challenge.
-BAT_3 moves to left rear, baiting enemy Chivalric Knights.
-Enemy Chivalric Knights are isolated.
-BAT_2 shadows enemy Chivalric Knights, in parallel canter.
-BAT_4, BAT_5 withdraw to charge position.
-BAT_1 charges enemy artillery position.
-BAT_4, BAT_5 charge enemy artillery position in support of BAT_1.
-Enemy artillery position is destroyed, enemy survivors are routing.
-BAT_1_Sipahi_Lancers shadow enemy general, in parallel gallop.
-Enemy General moves to engage BAT_1_BodyGuard.
-BAT_2 shadow enemy Chivalric Knights.
-BAT_3_Turcomen_2 are engaged and rout before melee.
-BAT_3 skirmishes enemy Chivalric Knights at initial friendly deployment point.
-BAT_1_BodyGuard engages enemy General.
-Enemy Chivalric Knights engage BAT_1_Sipahi_Lancers, hold as anvil.
-BAT_2_Sipahi_Lancers flank enemy Chivalric Knights, hammer.
-BAT_5 opens fire on enemy Chivalric Knights.
-BAT_4 charges rear of enemy General.
-Enemy General routs.
-BAT_4 & 5 status exhausted.
-BAT_3 (survivors) chase enemy General.
-Enemy infantry in proximity, all BATS withdraw from combat.
-BAT_1, BAT_2 engage remaining enemy knights.
-All BATS withdraw to top right of map (from our deployment perspective) and bracket enemy infantry.
-Missile cavalry opens fire on enemy Armored Sergeants, until ammunition is exhausted.
-Enemy infantry charged at discretion.
-All enemy infantry is eliminated. Enemy survivors are routing,
-All units form double line for group hug and group picture.
-BodyGuard assumes charge practice on enemy routers.

Battle Debrief follows:
Battle Results
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/M2TW%20Cavalry%20Tutorials/CombinedArms2_Result.jpg

Battle Statistics
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/M2TW%20Cavalry%20Tutorials/CombinedArms2_Statistics.jpg

How many kills were friendly fire ?


Primary Download (http://fs05n5.sendspace.com/dl/3af39cebc148111448fadc01e83c90ca/4644744c/k2cbhj/Cav%20Combined%20Arms%202.rpy)

Secondary/Backup Download (http://fs09n5.sendspace.com/dl/b590284c2a58e7e1e201ed606b4dbc0f/4644754e/ms3n52/Cav%20Combined%20Arms%202B.rpy)

These links are only valid for 14 days.

Weapons free so please fire away if I can be of any assistance. Hope this helps.

SALUTE !

Fußball
05-11-2007, 14:43
[B]EDIT 1: Btw bro, by all cavalry it dos'nt mean only knights. It means bow cavalry, melee cavalry, shock cavalry, javelin cavalry etc etc.

O I know that knights are not the only calvary. ~;) I was just stating those as my favorite calvary units. And of course Boyar Sons! They are only, like, the most adventurous sons of Russia ever!


EDIT 2: ALL CAVALRY COMBINED ARMS REPLAY.

FuBall I decided to share something with you, seeing you have been nothing but a great contributor since you've been around.

Thank you very much for the compliments. :bow: I would love to view the replay, unfortunately the downloads do not work, the file was removed or somefink. Try another file host or maybe you can email me the file itself?

Tschüß!
Erich

Shahed
05-11-2007, 14:48
My apologies. The files get deleted after a while and I posted these a while back. This link should work:

All Cavalry Combined Arms Replay (http://www.sendspace.com/file/k2cbhj)

I think if this works we'll be on the same wavelength. Even if it does not work I'd encourage everyone to read the sequence since this will give you a view of how an all cavalry army can operate.

PLEASE NOTE , this is a DEMONSTRATION replay, so you can ask a lot of questions but keep in mind that the whole purpose of the replay is to successfully demonstrate All Cavalry COmbined Arms Tactics.

Hope it works.

Salute !

Kobal2fr
05-11-2007, 14:57
CA used this film in the Mongol Invasion opening titles. Anyone who likes Sengoku Jidai period will likely enjoy this movie.

Except of course, it's not a Jidai movie at all, but in fact a Shakespeare movie :beam: (based on King Lear or Richard III, can't remember which. Kurosawa-sama had a thing for samuraized Shakespeare :yes: )

But true all the same. Great flick. Though I always wondered why they used that shot of the mad daymio looking confused as fire arrows poured through his throne room in the STW:MI intro, since there are a lot of actual (and better) battle scenes throughout the movie :/

Shahed
05-11-2007, 15:01
It's King Lear. But it is set in the Sengoku Jidai period. At least it gives all the impressions that it is. Indeed they could have shown much better scenes from the film that's for sure. And if I may add "sama" is for Gods, not people. I know a lot of people use sama even today but it's completely out of date. ;P :D

Fußball
05-11-2007, 15:21
Unfortunately Sinan for all that trouble you went through the replay did not turn out the same. For some reason when replays are viewed, instead of being an replay of your battle, it is as if the AI is playing instead. Same parameters, battle and setup, but AI seems to be controlling the battle. I have had this happen to me before when I wanted to replay a battle I had played against the mongols in which I won, but like in Sinan's replay, it was as if the AI was playing and I lost.

Also to point out, before the reply began, an error message occurred reminding me that my version of the game was not the same as the replay's. Which was due to the problem fixer I am assuming. Maybe this 'AI playing replay' is a bug of some sort?

Tschüß!
Erich

PseRamesses
05-11-2007, 15:47
Basically any misslie cavalry is a favourite of mine. One just have to use them in the right way, right? Playing my favourite factions Turks, Byzantines and Russians I always fields large misslie cavalry armies. During sieges I can always pick up some foot-mercs but I do miss the M/VI ability to dismount.

I´d love to play an muslim expansion mod with mostly cavs and camels.... drooool.

Shahed
05-11-2007, 15:49
FuBball .... Hmm... it should'nt really matter to the replay what version it is. It just has to play it so that will happen just the same. But this is good, I've not exchanged replays before.

I'd also recommend trying the replay a few times, maybe 3 or 4 times. I doubt it will help but might do, has worked for me before.

Carl's Fixer (don't know if you know it so just stating in case you don't) is essetially a 1.20 by the community. Even so it really should'nt matter. I think the replay would not have worked even if it was the same version. The replay I sent works 9 out of 10 times to perfection on my machine. I've had those replays as well where it always does something different, but this one was very reliable.

We do know for fact though that the replays are not reliable. That's been long standing. if you get lucky it does work every time though. As it is the case wiht that one on my machine.

Can you play a custom battle and upload me the replay please ? Or if anyone else wants to that will be great too.

Make it a 12 vs 20, whichever side you choose is up to you. take 2 screenshots at the end, one of the battle results and one of the battle statistics. I will use those to compare.

I will try it on my installation (1.10+ Fixer 1.13) and then install 1.20 and try it again.

Bis später buddy !


Basically any misslie cavalry is a favourite of mine. One just have to use them in the right way, right? Playing my favourite factions Turks, Byzantines and Russians I always fields large misslie cavalry armies. During sieges I can always pick up some foot-mercs but I do miss the M/VI ability to dismount.

I´d love to play an muslim expansion mod with mostly cavs and camels.... drooool.

Ramesses ! WELCOME BACK !!!

What's your favorite cavalry unit ?

And guess what ? the mod you are looking for is in development.

Click my sig to visit the Broken Crescent mod forum: Kypchaks, Ghorids, Ghaznavids, Seljuk, Abbasids, Kingdom of Jerusalem, Gerogia, KHWAREZM SHAH !..Crusader States, Rajputs..etc whole Middle East till Afghanistan and India. Expect MASSIVE cavalry battles ! The sig I'm using right now is the ingame battle flag of the Ghorids, in Broken Crescent. I got it off the forum and modified it a little bit. You can see some screenshots at the Official Screenshots Page (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=96454).

Here's one:
https://img223.imageshack.us/img223/6490/persianlancer05es3.th.jpg (https://img223.imageshack.us/my.php?image=persianlancer05es3.jpg)

Have a look at my M2: TW signatures (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=84054&page=2)thread, you will see some screens there as well, look at the 2 galleries post number 1 and 44 (IIRC).

Salute !

Shahed
05-11-2007, 16:08
Edit: It seems I've mastered the art of the double post.

:idea2: :dizzy2: :oops:

Fußball
05-11-2007, 16:25
Strange, I tried a quick test of one unit against the other. I saved as replay and viewed it. The events played exactly the same just like I played it, same casualties and everything. Maybe it is just large scale games or it only happens sometimes? More to test methinks.

Tschüß!
Erich

Whacker
05-11-2007, 16:38
Sinan, the problem with replays is that they often do vary between different patch versions of the game. Different stats, fixed animations, changes in projectiles/etc, all can add up and often throw it off completely.

Posting replays here is an awesome idea IMO, but you really do need to bite the bullet and patch up to v1.02. :whip: :smash: :laugh4:

:balloon2:

frogbeastegg
05-11-2007, 18:51
Hmm, timely topic. I'm a balanced army frog at heart, always have been. A line of infantry, 4-6 units of archers, 2-5 units of heavy cavalry, one of which is my general's guard. I did intend to try a cav heavy campaign with RTW; it never happened, thanks to my lack of time and issues with 1.2's gameplay and save/load bug. Now I wonder about trying that campaign in M2TW instead.

The question is this: which faction do you experts think would be best for me to use, and why? The faction which can best show off the wonders of cav heavy play, and do so in a campaign which will be fun.

Do please keep in mind that I'm not used to the intricacies of controlling an all cavalry army, and I don’t use pause these days, so if too much is demanded of me before I have time to warm to the task Bad Things will happen. The beauty of infantry heavy armies is that if you set them up well and give good orders you can all but ignore them while they do their work, and focus your attention on several critical units performing the flanking and support manoeuvres. Placing me in command of a horde of horse archers and asking me to skirmish in many directions at once is asking for trouble.

pike master
05-11-2007, 18:54
infantry is better. who needs cav when you have a solid column of pikes or feudal dismounted knights.:2thumbsup:

Odin
05-11-2007, 19:12
Light missle cavalry has always been my prefrence, I have spent more time as Novgorod in MTW/VI then I think I have with my son. (kidding, but it adds to the effect dosent it?).

MTW2, I spend most of my time with Hungary, love Hungarian nobles talk about a "can do" unit.

So I would definately consider myself a Cavalry commander, some of my most glorious victories, and defeats have been with 80%+ horse armies.

Whacker
05-11-2007, 19:18
@ Frogness - I just started a Byzantine campaign a few days ago, and they're REALLY growing on me. Good selection of missile cav (Vards rock hardcore), and melee/heavy cav. Kataphractoi are really slow, slowest in the game I think, but man can they dish it out and take a beating. Highly recommended.

@ Mad cat - My all-assault-class clan mech star + my laser wielding terminators > your infantry! :laugh4:

:balloon2:

Doug-Thompson
05-11-2007, 19:54
The beauty of infantry heavy armies is that if you set them up well and give good orders you can all but ignore them while they do their work, and focus your attention on several critical units performing the flanking and support manoeuvres. Placing me in command of a horde of horse archers and asking me to skirmish in many directions at once is asking for trouble.

I'll second Whacker's recommendation of the Byz because they get HA early. You can also integrate them with more conventional armies too, using HAs as flankers who can shoot until you get the knack.

However, I'm also going to make a qualified argument for the Egyptians. Why? Because their mainstay HA unit, the Mameluk Archer, is an excellent melee unit also. This effectively means it's harder to kill.

Losing all your HA is a shock and a disaster. Suppose you were experimenting with HA and lost your carefully built-up HA army in one early battle. If this happens, it would probably be because of the "hassle factor" of learning a new fighting style. Well, you'd be annoyed and your campaign could well be lost.

Mameluks are not as flammable as the typical entry-level Byz Skythikon or Turkish HA. Mams give a safety margin. Also, if Egypt blitzes up the coast all the way to Antioch and beyond, it will have a great economy. You can then afford cavalry-heavy armies, which ain't cheap.

======

That's the general recommendation. In your case, froggy, I think you might like more challenge than the Egyptians provide. Looking at the underdogs, I love Russia. Wide open spaces, flat terrain, infantry-heavy European enemies to the west to fight. It's HA paradise until the Mongols arrive.

I haven't tried a Hungarian campaign yet, but their units are excellent.

Finally, I have to mention the Iberians: Spain, Portugal and the Moors. They don't have HA but all have javelin cavalry. The Spainish and the Portugese also have conventional and good European units. That might be a good place to start for someone making the transition.

Whatever faction you choose, there's no better training for this type of fighting than bandit killing.

Whatever battle you're in, don't forget to look at the minimap once in a while. When you see a unit being driven into a corner, give it some attention.

rvg
05-11-2007, 20:01
Ahh, yesss, the all-cav armies. Even post-1.2 I use them alot, especially with the Byzantines. Usually in a combo of Vardariotai + Bodyguards. All the insane, retarded and otherwise deficient family members end up in my elite all-cav stacks and completely dominate the battlefields all the way until the A.I. armies start fielding lots of pikes and muskets in their rosters.

At that point I usually break down and weep mourning the Byzantine prospects for the future.

llewellyn
05-11-2007, 20:59
my absolute favorite cav
light= border horse
missle= vards
heavy= mounted gothic knights (just point and release)
but all time favorite to use would have to familiga ducale stats arent as good but they give milan a competeing cav force to go with crossbows

PseRamesses
05-11-2007, 21:17
Ramesses ! WELCOME BACK !!![/B]
What's your favorite cavalry unit ?
And guess what ? the mod you are looking for is in development.

Thx m8.

It´s a really tough choice but the Byz ability to get thoose early Vardatoi has to win my vote followed closely by the Tzar guard or whatever they are called. Been playing mods for so long that I´m having a hard time remembering what´s vanilla and what´s not, he he!

Been following your mod closely and I really do like the prospect of getting into a part of history sadly portrayed in commerical titles. Keep up the good work and may excellence be your target.

Eng
05-11-2007, 21:39
I Think the mongol heavey archers are the best cavalry there is
Good stats nice charge fights with a mace and can shoot while moving what more does a man need?

The Spartan (Returns)
05-11-2007, 22:01
alright to just state it clearly, I'm a cavalry commander as well.

Czar Alexsandr
05-11-2007, 23:11
I saw this thread yesterday, but got a little distracted. Anyways.. I am a Cavalry commander!

I believe in an integration of forces. But with missle cavalry, light cavalry, and heavy cavalry what else is needed? Besides that.. the Czar employs Boyar Son's who pelt your pikes and spears and swordsmen with nasty javelins of death from afar!

And in a related strategic question.. what on earth would the point be in having infantry in a steepe army? Lol. Just a thought.

Anyway's my favorite horse archers are Cossack Cavalry and Dvor. Favorite heavy cavalry is the Tsar's guard. Best light cavalry is the Alans. And a noteworthy addition is the Boyar Son's javelin cavalry.

My early armies consist of a general, two druzhina, four Kazacks, and four Boyar Son's. Late armies I employ General, two Tsar's guard, two Dvor Cavalry, two Cossack cavalry and any Alan's I can afford. Boyar Son's tend to find themselves in use very often as well. Turkopules are awesome! I'm glad my Orthodox can buy them now. They are Orthodox so... it really made me ponder....

Caelus
05-12-2007, 05:49
Does anyone ever feel bad destroying the computer with cavalry? That’s my only problem with using all cavalry armies; it seems the computer just doesn’t stand a chance.

Do you think that it is a matter of skill, that a good cavalry commander can optimize the use of his weapon and thus achieve victory decisively, or do you feel that either a) the computer is incompetent at defending against cavalry forces, or b) cavalry is just overpowered?

I love cavalry, love mobile warfare, love horses and am by far better with cavalry than any other arm. However I sometimes question whether my victories are the result of my own skill or of pure composition of forces.:inquisitive:

IrishArmenian
05-12-2007, 05:52
Then, use less cavalry!
And, I use some sort of mod, which generally incorporates Darth's mod which helps a bit.

Vladimir
05-12-2007, 20:00
The mid-game of my England VH/VH game has turned into a cavalry game. Those nobles keep throwing so many mailed knights at me that I"m fielding 80% horses. The upkeep for all of them is making it difficult to develop anything else in less I sack the French.

Shahed
05-12-2007, 20:35
As England it's hard to field a lot of cavalry early and sometimes mid game, best go with mix of Longbows and cavalry. Check www.dateyourgame.com, look for M2:TW tutorials, couple of English ones there. If you read my long post on page 2, I've described the "bracket". You can apply that with Longbows (firing on the opening) and knights (closing the bracket).

frogbeastegg
05-12-2007, 20:43
Byzantium!

Byzantium! Egyptians!
Thanks. :bow:

I'm torn. On the surface neither presents itself to me as a faction which screams "Play me!" more than the other. Time to play some custom battles and see if that makes any difference.

Shahed
05-12-2007, 21:11
Greetings warriorFrog

I saw your post earlier but I forgot to reply. Quick note for you with my initial recommendations.

Byzantines are in between but they do have the highest stat HA in game. I find them ok to play.

Egyptians are a fun faction. Their wealth provides for expensive cavalry armies. Egypt is a good Cavalry Commanders' School. Particularly if you are transitioning from the Euro factions and have no similar, prior experience in the saddle. They can play in tempo similar to the Euro factions, infantrie exclus. You will not miss the Pope. You can take it slow with them and feel at ease. They are exotic and seductive.

Russia is a very interesting faction. The vast distances make them a natural cavalry bastion. Russia makes for an exceptionally enjoyable game. The terrain heavily favors cavalry. Any infantry army has no chance of escape or survival in the Russian theatre. There are battles (maps) in the Steppe which you will never see anywhere else.

The Turks, Timurids and Mongols are more fun, for me. In this style of warfare aggression has considerable meaning. Something, that those 3 factions seem to be naturally inclined towards, in this game. You are free, as the Mongols & Timurids to do anything you want, even more so than the other Eastern factions like the Turks, Egyptians, Byzantines and Russians. Hungary is a option as well, though I would not recommend it because it's an extension of the same.

You may be refreshed, probably will be.

:bow:

SALUTE !

Tristrem
05-12-2007, 23:44
I am an all cavalry commander. I haven't played m2tw that much, but got my start in the now oldschool MTW, as the lovely turks and egyptians in vanilla, and Bkb supermod, and the XL mod. I then moved on too vanilla RTW and played the sarmations, and the parthians. Recently i been playing EB, as the mounted factions, such as the hay, the saka, and sauromatae.

I have dabbled in M2TW and tried russia, hungary, poland, the romans, turks, and egyptians, however, i am not an expert in this game yet.... I want to be patched first.

well now that that is said,

Ride on friends

edit for spelling

Czar Alexsandr
05-13-2007, 03:05
It seems I missed a certain thing that said if you'd like to be part of this association "say so clearly".. so.. Lol. I shall say in this post that I very much would like to be in the association.

The cavalry comanders are assembling. The enemy is doomed! Bwahaha! Looking forward to many more threads on the cavalry!

Shahed
05-13-2007, 03:15
HAHA !!!

I've seen all the posts bro ! Just been too hectic to update...I'll do so asap.

MOUNT UP !!! WE RIDE !!!

Whacker
05-13-2007, 06:34
Greetings warriorFrog

things

SALUTE !

Just wanted to throw my 2 cents in on a few things our friend Sinan said. I haven't played much as the Russians, Timurids or Mongols, but I have dabbled with the Islamic factions. Agree with Doug that the Egyptians have a decent horse lineup. Moors have the incredibly cheap (as in overpowered cheating) and stinky camel gunners, but that's about all that impressed me. Turks, I am not impressed with their cavalry at all. Turkish INFANTRY however, gawd... Jan. Inf. + Jan. Musk. + Monster Bombard = super-sized pwnage. But this thread is about horsies.... so I digress a bit.

Cheers!

:balloon2:

Orda Khan
05-13-2007, 14:40
Any faction that provides a light horse and a mounted archer will do

........Orda

Labareda
05-14-2007, 03:15
I would consider myself a cavalry commander, i do like the horses.

Now for the question, i can route most opposition with an all cav army and on terrain of my choosing i can often do so without loosing ridiculous numbers of men.

Heres the question.

How can you mitigate the losses of men with an all cav army, when facing various other mixes.

I find that if the AI is attacking me then all cav is great as i can slice and dice as they approach. Its attacking an entrenched mostly foot army that ive had troubles. I win but i loose too many men and the crying of the widows drowns out the victory speech!

My basic approach is divided my cav into 2-3 groups, form em up into a double line each, assign a group to each flank and centre (centre for infantry if they are making up numbers), and then finally i wait to see what carnage i can cause via flanking, hitting archers early, swamping the opposing general, or least favourite charging the enemies line, rinse and repeat.

So, how do I save my horses?

Shahed
05-14-2007, 03:26
Hi Labareda & WELCOME ABOARD !

It would help to know which faction you are playing and what units comprise your army to give you specific advice.

I can give you a simple generalised answer to that:


Don't engage them in protracted melee.
Keep them out of missile fire.
Always have supporting units into groups (which you mentioned).
Don't let any one of your units get isolated and operating alone.
Avoid hitting anythng frontally which is not already engaged from the rear or flank/s. I mean ANYTHING, even peasants can take a man out of a Bodyguard, that man is worth a lot more than 10 peasants. Unless you are farming experience, don't lose that man.
If you attack a target, hit it from all sides in this order of preference: Rear, flanks, front. The best attack is from all sides.
If you cannot hit from all sides, hit from the rear, if you cannot hit from the rear, hit from the flanks.
Always upgrade your armor (heat penalty is negligible).
Manually rout units that are in trouble. It's better to have 40 men retreat than 40 KIA.
If any tactical attack looks like it will not overwehlm the enemy, avoid it.
Avoid the enemy's strongest units, unless they are locally outclassed, outnumbered, or isolated.
Destroy the enemy's range, mobility and morale, in that order or mobility, range, morale. (except in multiplayer). If you can do all three at the same time, even better.
Change formations for the task, if you are in tight situations use wedge, you CAN actually weave through enemy units. Near enemy missiles use loose, tight formation 3 seconds before charge impact
If you hit a unit and you hit hard, but need to evade an attack, march right through the unit you just hit. SOMETIMES it's preferable to receiving a counter attack.
Don't stand still. Keep moving and keep checking on cavalry close to the enemy, make sure they are running, if in danger.
Try to use one extra waypoint per destination waypoint. This way they will reform and move on, and won't be still, even if you don't immediately issue another command.
Rebind your keyboard keys, and configure a seclection that allows for the fastest map movement. You should be able to play with one hand on the mouse and the other on keyboard. never have both hands on keyboard.
Use double left click for pointing the camera rather than rolling the mouse.
Keep units grouped but try to maneuver them individually. The big group drag and draw I've seen in many movies on you tube is IMHO not ideal for cavalry. If you do that may often have to recorrect their attack later.
Don't use double line in maneuver phase, it's harder to control.
Use 4*4 box to maneuver and double line in charge, depending on threat level.
If a tactical attack/maneuver is going badly, don't press on. Withdraw, reform, and re-evaluate.
Avoid using full stacks against heavy infantry armies, you can take them when outnumbered 3:1 or even much more depending on how the fight goes.
.

That's all I can think of immediately, will add to it. Does that help ? if you have any other questions, fire away.
Tell me what faction, and units you usually have and I can be more precise.

BTW what's your favorite faction and favorite cav unit ?

Labareda
05-14-2007, 04:03
Thanks for the post :0)

I can't really say i have a favourite faction cause im still playing my first which is France. So lets go with France.

Favourite Unit to this point is Noble Knights, but ive enjoyed every knight from mailed knights up.

I was enjoying the One of the Guild Knights untill the last standing mongol dispatched the last standing French Soldier in the smoking ruins of Acre. King Louis the Chivalrous (once the merciless till he took the holylands at swordpoint) had passed away and his army went rogue leaving Acre to its fate.

So I like Heavy Cav, the heavier the better. Crusader Knights were cool, while i was bribing the pope.

Shahed
05-14-2007, 04:14
Pleasure.

LOL ! That was a good way of putting it. Wonder if the Mongols put Acre to the sword. Probably not, peaceful folk that they are !. France has awesome cavalry.

darth_napo
05-14-2007, 05:53
I think the cav charges in 1.02 is broken again?
1.01 felt better for me :(

Vladimir
05-14-2007, 13:01
Is one of the requirements here that you actually have to ride a horse. I usually only get to do that once a year, and even less since I moved to the East coast. Stupid English saddles.

Recently as the Spanish I've been having fun with my Jinettes carefully pruning archers and crossbowmen off of the French.

Quillan
05-14-2007, 15:08
Somebody call Quillan

I'm here now, Doug, and I am definitely a cavalry commander. I've been playing other things lately so I haven't been keeping up with the forum religiously. My favorite cav is anything with a missile weapon and a sword: jinites, Polish Nobles, Byz, Sipahis, Mameluks, Camel Gunners, it doesn't matter.


infantry is better. who needs cav when you have a solid column of pikes or feudal dismounted knights.:2thumbsup:


Mad Cat, a missile cavalry army would absolutely decimate that force. In one of my early battles in the first M2TW campaign I played (modded the game to play Byzantines first) I had a force of 8 horse archers led by a captain (2 Vards, 1 Skythikon, 5 Byzantine Cavalry) that had to stop a Hungarian army of 12 dismounted feudal knights and a single pavise crossbow unit. I won a heroic victory and lost 2 men to enemy fire. They escaped with less than 20 men.

I'm not a huge fan of shock cavalry. It's great when it works, but I try to win battles with minimal casualties on my side. When using infantry I hit flanks all the time. I use lots of missile troops, targeting enemy missiles first. Every time I use the knights as shock cavalry I generally win the combat, but after it's over the knights need major replenishment. Against anyone who doesn't have a missile heavy army, an army of horse archers can just keep killing and killing in battle after battle without slowing down. Still need infantry for taking walls, though. )

_Tristan_
05-14-2007, 17:23
Thanks. :bow:

I'm torn. On the surface neither presents itself to me as a faction which screams "Play me!" more than the other. Time to play some custom battles and see if that makes any difference.

Then you should try the Hungarian campaign... You've got HA from the start and Hungarian nobles can double as light cav...

And you've got access to FK, plus you get to play the only catholic faction which can rely heavily on HA...

Shahed
05-14-2007, 20:04
Greetings ALL !!!

After going through this thread, I’m impressed with the response.
Thank you for reporting in !

The following Commanders have been added to the Associates (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1536821&postcount=1), with immediate effect.


God's Grace
Caelus
Tristan de Castelreng
Odin
rvg
Eng
Czar Alexsandr
Tristerm
Orda Khan
Labareda
Quillan


WELCOME ABOARD !!!

The following Commander has been added to the Honorary Associates (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1536821&postcount=1):

Doug-thompson


Doug your initiative: Hunters All Their Lives is one of the finest works, the community has ever seen. Thank you for your contribution. You should have told me that I missed your name there, but thank you for your modesty.

I have certain replies I'd like to give which will follow in a seperate post.
I wanted to post the member's update asap as I was... extremely timely (??) on this (HAAAAHA!)!

SALUTE !

frogbeastegg
05-14-2007, 20:19
I think I shall go with Egypt. They are more robust, and should survive the inevitable newbie mistakes as I try to make the switch in style.

Has anyone got any good Egyptian replays? Instructional would be more of interest to me than complicated ones.

Shahed
05-14-2007, 21:28
Good choice. Have you tried the one I posted on page 2 (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1537636&postcount=45) ? <-Link.
Can't hurt to try (it works 100% on my machine). I'm digging up something for you in the meantime.

I've just done this one, it may not work either, I have'nt yet installed 1.20. have too many other things to do. I'll try install it today and post some replays. Keep in mind that the replays are not reliable regardless of version.

Download Link (http://fs01n5.sendspace.com/dl/0ea309e74bb17a500d24bb8df974a558/4648d014/5owdvn/CavCombinedArms%203.rpy)

Overview:
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/MTW2%20General/Overview3.jpg

If the end looks like this it worked:
Battle Result
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/MTW2%20General/Battle_Results_3.jpg

Battle Statistics
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/MTW2%20General/Battle_Statistics_3.jpg

NOTE: It's not perfect but it is educational.

Doug-Thompson
05-14-2007, 22:56
Re: Honorary Associates

Thanks for the kind words and the honor of being included. I gratefully accept the honor but would like to post a reminder of something that's in the guide:


This thread keeps evolving from Org postings going back to MTW1, and those benefited from earlier efforts by Shogun players. The number of people whose ideas flowed, are flowing and will flow into this thread will never be reliably known.

And as playwright Wilson Mizner said:


Copy from one, it's plagiarism; copy from two, it's research.

Shahed
05-15-2007, 08:10
Pleasure.

HAHA ! That's a good quote !

Shahed
05-16-2007, 05:23
Here's a little table I compiled from the FUSIL 1-2 by brandybarrel for comparison purposes. Intend to do the same for Orthodox and Catholics.

https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/MTW2%20General/Mongol_Islamic_Cav_TableB.jpg

:feedback:

:charge:

IF THE IMAGE IS DISTORTING YOUR SCREEN, POST & I'LL SPOILER IT.

Doug-Thompson
05-16-2007, 06:09
Outstanding.

Shahed
05-16-2007, 06:27
Thanks.

Improving it... need to insert key and would like to include the mercs, but they make it less clear.
In the current format you can instantly see the picture. Would also be ideal to have it in A4 size so it can be printed.
Suggestions welcome.

NOTE: I've updated it. When you revisit this page please hit CTRL+F5 to referesh the image.

_Tristan_
05-16-2007, 07:50
Very neat...

I can hardly wait on a catholic version of the same...:charge:

As to printing it in A4 format, why not create a Pdf version ?

Shahed
05-16-2007, 08:02
Thanks Tris ! You're right. I think that is the best way, this for screen and a .pdf for printing. BTW I replied to your post in the Screenshot Request thread but it's disappeared for some reason. Seems the forum is not registering everything. Will repost later.

Now from this image we can discuss a LOT of things already. For a start just look at who has the best lineup in that selection.

I you guys see anything wrong with it or whatever just let me know.

Czar Alexsandr
05-17-2007, 04:06
Ah I must say I am impressed! It's interesting to compare them side by side. Usually that would require me to start a campaign look at the building browser and try to remember it which I normally can for a second or two.

Or write it down on various scarps of paper that aren't nearly as useful, having just a few select stastics, which end up thrown away as soon as I get done writing them it seems. :laugh4:

lol. Well I eagerly await the Catholic and Othodox ones. I must see my Russian's side by side for comparison.

Shahed
05-17-2007, 04:18
Ah I must say I am impressed! It's interesting to compare them side by side. Usually that would require me to start a campaign look at the building browser and try to remember it which I normally can for a second or two.

Or write it down on various scarps of paper that aren't nearly as useful, having just a few select stastics, which end up thrown away as soon as I get done writing them it seems. :laugh4:

lol. Well I eagerly await the Catholic and Othodox ones. I must see my Russian's side by side for comparison.

GREAT ! Another reply after 500 hits..lol. I was beginnning to think that table must really suck !

Thanks ! I''m doing the Ortho ones right now, I have to do the thing from scratch though if I want better quality.
Well let's see, how it looks when it's done.

Do you have some nice images of Boyars, Druzna etc like the image of the Mongol horseman I used ?
Also do you have a good image of a Russian medieval sword?

Czar Alexsandr
05-17-2007, 05:09
Not on hand Sinan but I can point you towards some good places to look. Or do the looking... lol. I'll do some looking and get back to you. But I know Russians and Cossacks used a sweord called a Kindjal? Kinda straight single edged sword. And for Russian pictures like Boyar... I'm thinking you might be able to put a pale filter over a Ivan Bilibin picture. He's done numerous pictures with Boyar in them. Ah well. There is another artist to who does less modren style and also does a lot of Boyar. Another Russian.. he's not very famous outside Russia. Kinda like Bilibin but who can forget a name like that? Lol. I'll go look for some pics.

Czar Alexsandr
05-17-2007, 05:23
Sinan

Google Victor Vasnetsov and you should find some good pictures for background. He has quite a few good Boyar paintings. But if you bored and get the free time Ivan Bilibin's unique approach is very interesting. His art's unlike anything I've ever seen. Lol. Well anyways Victor Vasnetsov pictures would probably make a better back ground. After it was lightened and turned to black and white probably.

About the swords. I didn't look for any and I've got to get to sleep so I think Kinjal is what you need. Isn't there an Islamic sword with a simillar name? I wonder if there's a common origin. I think the Russian one comes from Sarkel so Islamic influence is a possability. It's also one sided and very slightly curved. Hope I gave you some good places to look. Oh I can't remimber who posted it or what thread it was in but somebody posted a picture of two people in Boyar armour. Ah well. Good luck!

Shahed
05-17-2007, 05:28
Thanks for the ideas that's great. Yes I've googled and saw Byzantine, Russian and Islamic sometimes look very alike.
Thanks mate and sleep well !

Labareda
05-17-2007, 05:43
Cool :0)

I have one of those "i reckon this would be a cool thing to add but as im not doing the work i feel a bit cheap in sudjesting it' sudjestions.

Add an extra space beneath that has a building type eg. stable 3
meaning its three down the stable buildings tree

this may not work but would be cool i think. sometimes similar units have this as their difference.

Shahed
05-17-2007, 07:21
Good idea ! I'll try to do it.

Hey in 1.20 are cavalry charges less effective than 1.10 + Carl's Fixer 1.13 ?

Shahed
05-17-2007, 17:25
Hey Guys ! Could use some support here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=85446).

heisme
05-17-2007, 18:32
What this guy said

Normally a heavy cav person, but still loves me Cataphract Archers from RTW.

:balloon2:


What they both said but i luv:sweetheart: only one unit chivalric knights though any heavy cAVALRY archers make my day

Shahed
05-18-2007, 18:43
Welcome Aboard heisme !

What's your favorite cavalry faction ?

Anyone want this ?
https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/M2TW%20Signatures/Egypt_SigM1.jpg

It's not finished but I thought I'd post it already.

Guru
05-18-2007, 19:48
Cavalry commander Guru reporting for duty, good Sir Horsemaster! :charge: :charge:

hisn00bness
05-18-2007, 20:00
Guess I can volunteer for the roster. The most fun campaign I had was a turkish one where I fought of many crusades with half stack cav armies.

I never managed a heroic vitory in the open with cav armies against the timurids though :(

winning without huge height differences using 2 full cav stacks vs 3 stacks of timurids with about 12 elephants in it was the best I did.



favourite HA : Sipahi

_ recruitable in any city with a merchant guild
_ excellent survivability due to good armour
_ although not as awe inspiring as the mameluk; it can do medium cav duty very well

favourite Cav : ARAB CAVALRY !!!!!!!

_ CHEAP !!!!
_recruitable in any city with a racing track
_upgraded stats same as mailed knights
_excellent stamina; decent speed
_ for some reason performs just as well in prolonged melee as christian guard. (that's my campaign experience at least)

Fußball
05-18-2007, 23:13
Sinan here are a few examples of Caucasian kindjal or khanjali swords.

Replica example
http://www.geocities.com/dragonshallow/kendjal.jpg
Straight blade replica example
http://www.oriental-arms.com/photos/items/50/001150/ph-0.jpg
Another straight example, original maybe
https://img82.imageshack.us/img82/2120/khanjalinl5.jpg

Tschüß!
Erich

frogbeastegg
05-19-2007, 19:36
I started my Egypt game, and played for a while. It's er ... well, I'd describe it as "Meh." :embarassed:

Knowing the Mongols were going to land slap on my doorstep after ~60 turns I went against my usual style of play, and blitzed from turn 1. The sooner I control the Holy Land the more I'll be able to build it up before the Mongols hit. Within 10 turns I own the lot, and the province underneath Cairo. By 15 turns I've polished off the last settlement (Jedda) I need to make myself a nice Egyptian block with solid, defendable borders. I started standing down my mercenaries and building proper cavalry armies while building farms and population growth enhancers everywhere, followed by income or prime military buildings depending on the settlement's function.

I raked in cash. I raked in some more cash. I upgraded some settlements to the next level, while raking in some cash. Cash, build, cash, build - then the Milanese declared war on me. My nice cavalry armies must scare them, since I haven't seen hide nor hair of a single Milanese unit. I haven't got a navy at all, yet they've not even tried to blockade my ports.

Cash, build, cash, build - ooh, a crusade! Now this will get exciting, I thought. Nope. No one joined it. I could have saved myself the effort of building up a new army and the garrisons in the settlements on the path the Crusade was likely to take. Yawn.

Cash, build, cash, build, boredom. I toyed with the idea of pushing my way west to squash the Moors. I decided against it because there will be plenty of time for that once the Mongols are broken, and for now putting my resources into preparing for M Day seems a far, far sounder plan.

This is where the campaign stands presently. I still have a while before M Day.

I've fought ... 3 field battles, all against tiny rebel armies. All the others were sieges, either with me attacking or, more often, with the enemy sallying. This isn't the kind of battle I want to be fighting; there's little scope or use for manoeuvrability. I'm not learning much about how to use this kind of army.

As for M Day, I'm thinking that I should put together some infantry armies. Loads of good archers, some solid upgraded spears, a few halberds, and some cavalry to protect the flanks and rout chase. Fielding cavalry armies against the cavalry masters does not sound like the best of plans, especially when command is in the hands of a frog who has barely used a cavalry army. Infantry armies I can slap together very quickly, and as they cost less and use troops which regenerate faster, they are more disposable. Holding position and shooting the Mongols to death, then stabbing them with pointy sticks if they come close is far more likely to result in victory than gadding about with some cavalry of my own trying to beat them at their own game.

Any ideas?

hisn00bness
05-20-2007, 04:04
no;

except playing them at their own game is more FUN than using infantry armies and meeting them on mountain tops and river crossings.

I haven't played an egyptian campaign yet; but if your infantry is anything like the turks i can safely say that you will get WHOOPED in the open if you use too much infantry and don't engage them where the terrain heavily favours you.
halberds and spears die massively to arrows; and their 10 dread generals need only make one charge to route your entire army (unless you happen to have a good chiv general around of course).
At least thats what happened to me whenever i tried the spear + archers approach as the turks. it has to be said that I had no access to janissary archers then yet; and for some reason ottoman infantry don't seem to live up to their 18 defence iunder a charge.


Nah it's just not the way. you have desert cavalry; the khan killers par excellence; you have mameluks; the best HA in the east (THE MORALE is their main firtue against the mongols); when the mongols come; give em hell with your own missile cav.


I guarantee you the coolest battles in the campaign if you do. The timurid armies are also fun but a bit too 'gamey' because of the elephants.

Monsieur Alphonse
05-20-2007, 07:47
@frogg

Listen to his Noobness with regard to the infantry armies. (unless you want to defend cities).

You have two options if you want more fun.

1. Expand further north and go on a Jihad and capture Constantinople (wipe out the Turks and the Bizzies). Once you own Constantinople you will face crusades and lots of attacks. The Balkans is a nice place to practice your skills. Also go north-east to Sarkell (sp) and make that your other border. With Sarkell and Constantinople (or Sofia) as your defensive border regions you will face a wide diversity of enemies. Russians, Poles, Hungarians with missile cav. Venetians and other western Catholic factions with heavy shock cav and infantry.

2. Start all over again and play the Turks. (I suggest you play on a 1y/1 turn to give you some time). There are several reasons to do that. First the Turks have better infantry and almost the same cavalry. Second if you blitz the first 20 turns you will be very rich. There is a good strategy in the turks guide but I will give you a summary.

Create two armies. Your western army consists of the troops of Ceasara (sp) and Iconium (build some more HAs). For your Eastern army combine the forces of Yerevan and Mosul (change Mosul to a city after building some HAs). Once your Eastern army is almost complete call a Jihad and head with your Western army to Constantinople (hire some mercs). Capture Nicea, hire a boat and capture Constantinople (all be done within 2 or 3 turns). With your Easter army join the crusade (for extra speed and XP) hire some mercs and capture Edessa, Aleppo (change to city) and Antioch. Sack them all.

Now the best thing to do is fortify Constantinople. You should exterminate its population. Don't build a mosque unless you want to face a crusade very early. I kept ten imams in Nicea and waited until the pope called a crusade on Tunis and then started to convert the infidels very fast.

On the southern front you have a large army. Don't waste time rebuilding that army. Build a city barrack in Antioch and head south. Build some extra HAs in Ceasara to have a second army. With you first army attack Egypt as soon as possible and take and sack Accra, Jerusalem, Gaza, Alexandria and Cairo. With your second army (HAs, Saracens and some generals) capture Damascus and Jedda. Once the Egyptians are out you will be stinking rich. Capture Dongela with you Egyptian army and use the army in Jedda to capture Baghdad (Jihad). Head north and make Sarkell your norther border region.

Now you will have a nice economic base, a very strong defensive position and lots of different enemies. And that means fun.

frogbeastegg
05-20-2007, 18:11
Hmmm ... I'm having a hard time seeing how a cavalry newbie is going to defeat the Mongols at their own game. I can't control large cavalry armies very well, and my timing and tactics with them aren't as effective as they could be. What's more, I'm quite hesitant about using a cavalry army to take on another; it's not like two infanty heavy forces where you establish a solid line of battle and then win by turning the flanks, attacking the rear if it's possible, and crippling their ranged support and key units with missiles during the opening phases.

My cavalry armies aren't terribly disposible either. Losing one would be a set back. It takes more money to raise one, and generally speaking the better cavalry units replenish at a slower rate.

So I guess I either do a lot of training in custom battles, or run off and try out another faction.

Anyone got any advice for beating the Mongols at their own game?

Per Ole
05-20-2007, 19:17
hm... In my image, cavalry commanders are like huge sledges that you use to bring down buildings with. I'm the brick wall that won't budge. I preffer solid defences in face of enourmus odds, then holding my line while using superior tactics to win a battle. In my armies, the only cavalry I normally have are the generals bodyguard, and see what I can do with that!:

https://img255.imageshack.us/img255/4682/heroicvictoryxg8.jpg

With militia units, vs genoese crossbowmen and loads of other stuff. God I rock ;)

Monsieur Alphonse
05-20-2007, 20:12
@frogbeastegg

That is why I suggested that you play the Turks. Once you have captured the Holy land and secured its borders you can start improving your skills as a cavalry commander. Besides you will be stinking rich. The Mongols can either be defeated with the traditional city defense strategy, for which the Turks have excellent infantry. If you practice a lot with all cavalry armies you will have very experienced troops. Since the Turks can build HAs in cities (race track, Sultans track and merchants guild) you can easy reinforce you armies.

The Mongols main target in the Holy land is Antioch.

@Per Ole

Great victory. How the hell did you put that picture in your post. I could show some nice results with an all cavalry army but I don't know how to put a picture in my post.

Doug-Thompson
05-21-2007, 03:58
Re: Infantry and Mongol invasions

Well, froggy, you have a choice. You can fight the Mongols with cavalry and learn what you wanted to learn — albeit the hard way. Or you can do that most military commanders have done throughout history when faced with a crisis — fall back on what they know.


Anyone got any advice for beating the Mongols at their own game?

The whole secret of beating the Mongols in the field is to throw away traditional concepts of victory and defeat. Your goal is to kill as many of them as possible without being destroyed — even if that means withdrawing while still having some forces intact and "losing" the battle.

Your first and foremost goal is to get at some Mongol stack that is out of reinforcement range. That sounds obvious, but consider the this:

If you put any infantry in your stack, you cripple the one thing you need most: Mobility.

Now, if you're defending that wonderful gorge north of Mosul, then please sacrifice the mobility. That place is the best place to kill steppe armies, where you're able to stop a couple of Mongol stacks with one good stack of infantry and cavalry.

In the open field, however, things are much tougher.

The few halbreds in a given Mongol stack do nothing, really, but hamper their mobility — giving you the relative edge if you are all-cavalry. Also, your enhanced mobility does give you some improved ability to concentrate forces. (Note that, by giving the Mongols some infantry, the game gives the Mongols a serious handicap they did not have in history, and hands their mobility advantage to you.) The Mongols tend to stick together.

In a battle — and this is where the "thow away traditional concepts" really comes in — your goal in the starkest possible terms is to stay close to a 1-to-1 kill-to-loss ratio.

Yes, your forces are fragile. Yes, they are expensive to replace. However, you can replace yours, or at least some of yours. The Mongols cannot You can retrain. The Mongols can't. With your better mobility, you can merge partial units into whole ones.

We're talking about three or four full Egyptian cavalry stacks here — at least.

Now for some actual battlefield advice.

1. Melee attack with mamluk archers.

They are much better at melee than the basic Mongol HA and as good as the Mongol Heavy Archer. What's more, as missile cavalry they will be shooting at the Mongols for all that time before they make contact as the Mongols elude the melee. Your Mamluks will get some advantage from their shields this way. The Mongols won't, since they are turning their backsides to you and skirmishing away.

2. Mass missile cavalry.

My favorite trick with the Mongols is to run a concentration of javelin cavalry at them with fire-at-will off, then hit the fire-at-will button when they are within range of a mass of Mongols, preferably including the enemy's general.

Mongol arrow are more distructive in the long-term because of their sustained fire. However, the heavier javelins do great damage to the not-so-superbly armored Mongols in a very short period of time.

Also, javelins are not effected by weather. Whenever you can fight the Mongols in a sandstorm, do so.

=======

P.S.

As for the lack of Crusades to fight, I think I'm jealous. As Moors, I destroyed an HRE crusade, then an English one (That took two battles, including a defeat in the first), then a Venetian, then a Milanese one, then a Hungarian one and another Hungarian one is approaching, all in succession. Of course, that's what I get for taking Rome. Oh, and I destroyed another full stack defending Bologna, too.

Doug-Thompson
05-21-2007, 04:11
I prefer solid defences in face of enormus odds, then holding my line while using superior tactics to win a battle. (emphais added)


I know Per Ole didn't mean it this way, but cavalry commanders use "superior tactics to win a battle" too. :wink:

Somebody posted earlier if it was unfair to use all-cavalry on the poor old AI. Not when I'm fighting Mongols, for instance, or about five crusades at once.

Monsieur Alphonse
05-21-2007, 23:13
@frogg: advice on beating the Mongols playing their game.

A typical Mongol stack consists of one third heavy cav, one third HAs and one third infantry and one general.
Your stack should have an other composition. One third heavy cav (real heavy) and two thirds HAs. The most dangerous part of the Mongol army is the heavy cavalry. Use the HAs to weaken them. Preferably let the Mongols chase your horse archers. The main task of your heavy cavalry is to destroy the Mongol infantry. The other task (of the survivors) is to support your horse archers. Seeing 13 to 14 horse archers racing over the battlefield is great fun. Your horse archers will do a lot off damage to the Mongol HAs. Be sure that your HAs are better than the Mongol HAs. Halve of the Mongol HAs are very light armored. So on average you will have better HAs.

The challenge is not to defeat one Mongol stack with this strategy but two. It can be done.

I hope this all make sense because it is very late and I am very tired

Doug-Thompson
05-21-2007, 23:21
Swift change of topic:

This is probably old news to everybody else, but I was surprized to find out how many units have an anti-armor-bonused weapon and not a sword for their secondary/melee attack — English Knights have an axe, for instance.

Others on the list include HRE Gothic Knights, Teutonic Knights and Imperial Knights. All have maces.

Venicie Stradoits, for crying out loud, have a mace. So do Russian boyar's sons. Russian Druzhina and Dvor Cavalry have axes.

Shahed
05-21-2007, 23:47
What's your take on that, good or bad for gameplay ?

Doug-Thompson
05-22-2007, 00:17
What's your take on that, good or bad for gameplay ?
Good. All to the good. I'm for variety and options.

Got a bunch of questions, though:

1. Are there ever circumstances when someone needs to alt-attack. I assume these cavalry drop their spears after the initial charge automatically. Is that a good assumption?

2. Is this a small part of the problem in getting a good, spears down charge? Perhaps some cavalry is using the better, anti-armor option.

Test time.

Shahed
05-22-2007, 01:25
Good. All to the good. I'm for variety and options.

Got a bunch of questions, though:

1. Are there ever circumstances when someone needs to alt-attack. I assume these cavalry drop their spears after the initial charge automatically. Is that a good assumption?

2. Is this a small part of the problem in getting a good, spears down charge? Perhaps some cavalry is using the better, anti-armor option.

Test time.

I think it's good as well.
Though I'd like to see it a little more limited and a little more powerful.
For example my partial AP bonus list would be:

Gothic Knights.
Russian top end.
Mongol Heavy Horse Archers.
Timurid top end.
Mamluks.
Quapakulu.
..... etc etc basically the top end of a few factions' cavalry.

Feel free to add some. We can mod this easily if people want this to be altered.

1. Yeah they do automatically, but I usually ALT+Attack anyway.
2. I have'nt understood that problem because it never happens to me. I always have lance down charge when I want it. I'm wondering if that problem (as posted in the "Charge Frustrations II" thread) is linked to wanting the charge at the "wrong" time (too often?). I do not understand how it does'nt work. Someone will have to clear that up for me, because 99.9% of the time I want a lance charge, I get it.

seireikhaan
05-22-2007, 01:41
Heh, just noticed this thread when browsing through the Org. I myself do much like cavalry, I often have roughly at least half my army as cavalry of some kind, minus very early or special occasions. Like for instance, with a very cavarly poor faction(I rarely play these) and against the Mongols. I've never considered it really wise judgement to try and outcavarly the Mongols. I just want to note that I don't actually have M2TW, I mainly play MTW. Also, this is the main reason why I play as Hungary and Turks so much in MTW, lots of nice cav!

frogbeastegg
05-22-2007, 09:04
The Mongols are here!

Thanks for all the tips ~:)

I created 4 full stacks, each consisting of one good general, 4 desert cavalry, 6 Arab cavalry and the rest Mamluk HAs. Each front line settlement has a beefed up garrison consisting of the best infantry archers I can field, upgraded Saracen infantry, and halberd militia. Thanks to the earlier efforts of Naser the Mad (at 16 he was mad, by the time he'd spent a lifetime wandering deserts alone building towers he was irredeemably insane) I could already see every last pixel of my lands, and significant proportions of my neighbour's.

When the popup appears and the movie starts playing I thought, "This is it. Time to see how I do. If it all goes too badly I'll break my usual no reloading rule and play through this invasion again. I'm doing this to learn, and there's no point in spending another 70 turns building back up to this part."

The movie ends, the Mongols appear on the map ... in the Steppes. And promptly head west.

Several minutes of me sitting there :stunned: later, and I realise that all my forces are deployed in the wrong direction. They are all staring at the edge of the map near Damascus. Much hasty moving of armies and garrisons ensued, until the northern border of my lands was covered by this massive force. I built extra spies and sent them up into the Steppes in search of Mr. Khan and his associates. As of this point I still haven't made visual contact with the Mongols. This scares me - there's stacks of rabid Mongols out there and I can't find them! I assume they are going west because if they were headed south I'd have found them turns ago.

Meanwhile the Turks take one look at the Mongols which appeared next door to them, and promptly cancel their alliance with me. They will not re-establish it. Oh well, they'll make a nice buffer, and if they attack me I've got 4 full stacks ready to beat them up.

A few more turns passed with me feeling like a bit of a fool. I'd got this massive army and all these posh defences and they weren't needed. So I declared war on the puny Byzantine empire and started collecting up their islands. The remaining islands in the Med are held by the Venetians. Being nice people they spotted my needs and declared war on me, so I'll be collecting their islands next. I have my two stacks from my Alexandria/Cairo/thingy border pushing west through Libya to capture the settlement in that territory (it's held by Venice), and then I'll engage in a bit of Moor conquering.

Now my only concern is that the second batch of Mongols will spawn at a different location to the first, and end up in my lands when I'm not prepared. I've never actually faced the Mongols in M2TW; I've only played one campaign far enough that they appeared, and that was with the English. I had no presence in the east, other than a pair of spies.

Shahed
05-22-2007, 10:29
Good to know you're still alive Froggy ! I really enjoyed reading that post.
I'm hoping we can welcome you to this association.
In the meantime we can make our best efforts to be your finest guides.

If they end up in your lands, and you don't appreciate it, declare war.
If you are happy with their presence you could ally with them.

Few questions: Are there any other concerns that you have or need help with ?
Your 4 cavalry stacks, are green are they ? Upgraded armor I presume ? Any Horse Breeder's Guilds yet?
Who controls Mosul and the valley north of Mosul ? Your best general is not the "mad" one is it ?

Shahed
05-22-2007, 10:39
Heh, just noticed this thread when browsing through the Org. I myself do much like cavalry, I often have roughly at least half my army as cavalry of some kind, minus very early or special occasions. Like for instance, with a very cavarly poor faction(I rarely play these) and against the Mongols. I've never considered it really wise judgement to try and outcavarly the Mongols. I just want to note that I don't actually have M2TW, I mainly play MTW. Also, this is the main reason why I play as Hungary and Turks so much in MTW, lots of nice cav!

Welcome aboard KHAAN ! I'm sure you can get lots of interesting ideas from us until you hit M2:TW. And once you do you'll be in fine company.

crpcarrot
05-22-2007, 10:50
looking at your muslim cavalry sheet i guess only siphais can see off the mongols for turks. with the 6 exp points anything less and the mongols would steam roll over them. the 6 exp makes thier missles more deadlier as well i suppose

frogbeastegg
05-22-2007, 10:55
The Turks got Mosul at the same time as I acquired Aleppo. I beat them to Edessa, but they got Bagdad. I didn't think it worth breaking our alliance to go after these settlements; I needed to consolidate and build after that burst of rushing, and I reasoned that having an ally with a presence on what I expected to be the Mongol front could be useful.

My stacks are mostly green, lead by young generals. I’m unlucky in that most of my original characters recently died of old age, from my (second, my original died on turn 2!) Sultan right down to my merchants. Fortunately they all started with great traits, including several night fighters. Some of the units have armour upgrades, some don’t. It depends on where they came from; Mamluk HA are not something I can continuously pump out of a couple of cities; I’ve had to draw on the recruitment pools of my entire empire to throw this force together, and some of those areas have only recently become able to recruit them.

I'm worried about the Timurids, and about where the second batch of Mongols will appear. I don't know when or where the Timurids will appear, only that they will be somewhere in my lands. I'm planning to go into a burst of aggressive expansion now, and having lots of big stacks spawn in my heartlands will probably half kill me before I can reposition to counter.

I'm going after the remaining Med islands on one front and the Moors on the other. If all goes well I will take out the pathetic remains of Byzantium, which will give me two strong fronts to attack the Turks with as well as the riches of Constantinople. Once the Turks are dead I'll have won, since I'm only doing a short campaign. I’d go after the Turks now as well, but I want to see what the Mongols are doing. Fighting the Turks in addition to all the others would likely prove fatal if the Mongols come after me in force.

All in all I think I need to do another campaign before I'm remotely qualified as a cavalry commander. Too many of the battles in this one have been sieges. I've hardly fought in the field, and when I have it's been against a vastly inferior force. I'm not much better with cavalry than when I started this ~:( It’s frustrating. I want to take my cavalry armies out into open ground and fight against good foes. All this mincing about picking off tiny ill-equipped forces and fighting sieges is not what I signed up for.

Shahed
05-22-2007, 10:59
looking at your muslim cavalry sheet i guess only siphais can see off the mongols for turks. with the 6 exp points anything less and the mongols would steam roll over them. the 6 exp makes thier missles more deadlier as well i suppose

Hi carrot

The Mongols pretty much can see anything off.

However, let me tell you under what conditions I play Turks.
If you specialise right from the beginning you can get Horse Breeders HQ and Masters quick. Take Egypt and Byzantium, lure them into attacking to preserve reputation. Western border is Constantinople, Eastern Border is (forgot the name) Libya (hope you know what I mean). By this time all the Catholics have declared on you, Crusades flow in regularly providing training for your armies.

By the time the Mongols arrive they are met with at least 2-3 stacks of gold chevron all cavalry armies. By that time your Janissary Heavy Infantry and Janissary Archers are approaching silver chevron level. You are in a position to compete.

crpcarrot
05-22-2007, 11:08
hi sinan

unfrtunantely i played a sort of passificst campaign leaving the egyptians alone and only attaked the byzies when they attacked me. when the egyptians decided to join them i just killed thir stack off and took one city and offered peace. my slow style of playing has left me back in tech (due to lack of much money) and some good vetrans but not many. ther was only one crusade declared on jeruselem and only 2 armies cme through but i dided to let them go as i was more into taking constantinople. anyways like i said in the other thread the mongols arnt doing anything i just hope whe the tims come they go for eachother before they come after me.

Warluster
05-22-2007, 11:22
I love cavalry! Especially Spanish Conquistardes (sp?) with best armor,weapons,experince! They rock! (And Royal Mamluks)

Kobal2fr
05-22-2007, 16:19
I just found out the most amazing thing : if you're handling heavy knights, and are in a frontal assault mood, charge the enemy's SECOND line, not the first. When you do that, your knights start galloping towards the line, couch their lances when they reach charging range of the FIRST line, tear right through them and don't stop till they're well into the second one, at which point (and only then) will they draw swords/axes/maces/two-pronged tallywhackers. The first line will just keel over in droves, unless it's a deep spear line.

Doug-Thompson
05-22-2007, 22:14
In your case, froggy, I think you might like more challenge than the Egyptians provide. Looking at the underdogs, I love Russia. Wide open spaces, flat terrain, infantry-heavy European enemies to the west to fight. It's HA paradise until the Mongols arrive.

I haven't tried a Hungarian campaign yet, but their units are excellent.

Looks like I was more right than I knew about the Egyptians being boring. Sorry, froggy. If the Mongols had come your way, you'd have lived the old adage that war consists of long periods of boredom broken only by moments of intense fright.

I haven't tried the Hungarians yet in campaign, but they might be exactly what you're lookiing for: Western European infantry armies to practice upon, another faction with horse archers in the Byzantines, and finally a fully developed Turkis HA faction to fight once you get through the Byzantines.

I can't imagine Hungary being left in peace or being too boring, considering they border at least 4 factions: Byzantium, Venice, HRE, Poland and — once somebody conquers an Eastern Steppe province — Russia.

Shahed
05-22-2007, 22:39
Well, IMHO they are not boring at all, it's the way you play them that makes the difference.
Specially since Froggy, like me, is a slow and steady player, it should be perfect.
If action is the object then you do what all hunters do... go hunting. Egypt is an extremely fun faction to play.

Doug-Thompson
05-22-2007, 22:57
If action is the object then you do what all hunters do... go hunting.

I like that. :yes:

Shahed
05-22-2007, 22:58
Me too ! :D

Kobal that's another good find. I'm going to try that.

Quillan
05-22-2007, 23:01
Froggy, my experience with the Mongols is that their behavior is at least somewhat predictable. Wherever the first wave appears is where all the waves of Mongols will appear, and as soon as a new wave appears the existing horde will backtrack to meet up with them. If they appear in Sarkel and head west, you can expect the leading elements of the horde to yoyo several times as they add to the size of the horde; normally they get over around Kiev then move back east to join up with the new arrivals. Once they are all on the map they become a really devastating force.

Generally if they appear in the steppes they concentrate on Russia, Byzantium and Hungary, expanding to the west. If they arrive in the Causcusus Mts, they have a tendency to wander around for a while. If they arrive near Baghdad, then they go after the Holy Land. I think the Timurids are the same, but since I play 1 year=1 turn I've never seen them.

frogbeastegg
05-23-2007, 10:17
:gring: I got to fight some proper battles at last!

The Venetians and the Sicilians attacked me in concert, both sending full stack decent armies at me near Tripoli, an area where I only had 1 army made up of just over half a stack. I fought the stacks individually, but in each battle I was outnumbered by over 2-1. I won both, with heroic victories. It was very intense, and great fun to fight. Surrounding them with my Mamluk HAs, shooting into them from every direction, smashing their pavise crossbows when they ventured out of position to chase my Mamluks, scattering before their knights and sergeants, charging isolated and battered units with my Arab cavalry - incredibly messy looking battles, and I had to pause to keep up with it all in the busier phases, but so much fun.

Hehe, nothing beats having the enemy general galloping about on his armoured horsie trying to catch any of the four units of Mamluks shooting at him from each point of the compass. I felt sorry for the old duffer.

And as for that 9 unit stack of spear militia they sent in to relieve a siege of a settlement which had 3 more units of spear militia in it, well that was cruel. I didn't take a single loss. None of the enemy survived.

The Pope has taken exception to my victories; he's declared war on me and is moving to attack my nice little islands.

A crusade has been declared on Tripoli.

I have this nagging worry that I am over-extended in the West, between the mainland and the islands. It's going to take turns to get reinforcements out to that area, and I may not have turns if all three factions act at once.

Oh, and because one can never have too much fun - and because they had overstretched badly and left themselves achingly vulnerable while I had 4 full stacks stood about doing nothing - I declared war on the Turks. Two settlements captured, 4 more under siege, and they keep begging for peace. I want to carry on up to the mountain ranges so I only need to defend a pair of mountain passes against possible Mongol incursions, so I keep refusing. I may let them keep their single settlement on the Steppes, if I feel generous, if I decide it may risk attracting the attention of Mr Khan and friends.

:charge:

Doug-Thompson
05-23-2007, 13:26
:gring: I got to fight some proper battles at last!

... It was very intense, and great fun to fight. Surrounding them with my Mamluk HAs, shooting into them from every direction, smashing their pavise crossbows when they ventured out of position to chase my Mamluks, scattering before their knights and sergeants, charging isolated and battered units with my Arab cavalry - incredibly messy looking battles, and I had to pause to keep up with it all in the busier phases, but so much fun.

Hehe, nothing beats having the enemy general galloping about on his armoured horsie trying to catch any of the four units of Mamluks shooting at him from each point of the compass. I felt sorry for the old duffer.

And as for that 9 unit stack of spear militia they sent in to relieve a siege of a settlement which had 3 more units of spear militia in it, well that was cruel. I didn't take a single loss. None of the enemy survived ....

Oh, and because one can never have too much fun - and because they had overstretched badly and left themselves achingly vulnerable while I had 4 full stacks stood about doing nothing - I declared war on the Turks. Two settlements captured, 4 more under siege, and they keep begging for peace. I want to carry on up to the mountain ranges so I only need to defend a pair of mountain passes against possible Mongol incursions, so I keep refusing. I may let them keep their single settlement on the Steppes, if I feel generous, if I decide it may risk attracting the attention of Mr Khan and friends.

:charge:

"Yes, YES. Feel the power of the Dark Side" (Evil cackle)

Andres
05-23-2007, 14:23
Well, I'm more the type to play with good ol' catholic factions: two lines of infantry (spears or heavy inf) in front, archers behind, some cavalry units at the flanks or (if the map allows it) hiding in the woods to make charges in the enemy flanks or rear, an occasional change in formation if necessary, etc etc.

This thread, the "Hunters all their lives" thread in the guide section and Sinans and Doug-Thompsons' enthusiasm itched me and I finally decided to try out one of the muslim factions and to play with all or almost all cavalry armies.

And so I started with Egypt.

For now, I only experienced the boring Total Siege part of the game with no field battles whatsoever (I modified the rebel spawn rates, so no annoying three unit rebel armies popping up in my deserts), but last night, two turns before I quit my game session, the Pope called a crusade against Antioch, right after I started to wage war against Byzantium by taking Cyprus.

France, Venice, Milan and Hungary joined the crusade thus far (meanwhile, I obtained trade rights from the Pope, hypocrite!).

I've put spies in Turkey all the way to Constantinople and some fleets in the suroundings of the Holy land and Cyprus to make sure I'll spot the Crusading armies at least one or two turns in advance before they reach the target.

I'm considering to call a Jihad against Constantinople now, move towards the target by sea and block the land bridge from Constantinople to Turkey, forcing the Crusaders to fight me in Constantinople (which I'll hopefully reach before them) or to invade my lands by sea (which I should rule in a few turns, since I'm building War Galleys at light speed, nice to have a faction where money is not that much of an issue :2thumbsup:), where I hope to intercept their fleets before they can invade .

I've build a half stack of Mamluk Horse Archers only (and a general) and another mixed stack of three infantry units, Arab cavalry, Mamluk Horse Archers, my crown prince and whatever mercenary Horse Archer units I encountered on the way. This is the starting army that should join the Jihad to conquer Constantinople and to stop the Crusades. Meanwhile, I count on my allies, the Turks, to keep the Byzantines busy and prevent them to reach my settlements in the Holy Land.

Can't wait to go home and see how things will develop.

Cavalry FTW!

Shahed
05-23-2007, 14:25
The Turks got Mosul at the same time as I acquired Aleppo. I beat them to Edessa, but they got Bagdad. I didn't think it worth breaking our alliance to go after these settlements; I needed to consolidate and build after that burst of rushing, and I reasoned that having an ally with a presence on what I expected to be the Mongol front could be useful.

My stacks are mostly green, lead by young generals. I’m unlucky in that most of my original characters recently died of old age, from my (second, my original died on turn 2!) Sultan right down to my merchants. Fortunately they all started with great traits, including several night fighters. Some of the units have armour upgrades, some don’t. It depends on where they came from; Mamluk HA are not something I can continuously pump out of a couple of cities; I’ve had to draw on the recruitment pools of my entire empire to throw this force together, and some of those areas have only recently become able to recruit them.

I'm worried about the Timurids, and about where the second batch of Mongols will appear. I don't know when or where the Timurids will appear, only that they will be somewhere in my lands. I'm planning to go into a burst of aggressive expansion now, and having lots of big stacks spawn in my heartlands will probably half kill me before I can reposition to counter.

I'm going after the remaining Med islands on one front and the Moors on the other. If all goes well I will take out the pathetic remains of Byzantium, which will give me two strong fronts to attack the Turks with as well as the riches of Constantinople. Once the Turks are dead I'll have won, since I'm only doing a short campaign. I’d go after the Turks now as well, but I want to see what the Mongols are doing. Fighting the Turks in addition to all the others would likely prove fatal if the Mongols come after me in force.

All in all I think I need to do another campaign before I'm remotely qualified as a cavalry commander. Too many of the battles in this one have been sieges. I've hardly fought in the field, and when I have it's been against a vastly inferior force. I'm not much better with cavalry than when I started this ~:( It’s frustrating. I want to take my cavalry armies out into open ground and fight against good foes. All this mincing about picking off tiny ill-equipped forces and fighting sieges is not what I signed up for.


Thanks for the reply. I'd like to comment, if I may. Most of this is kind of late... but hey I was writing it whenever I could so I figured I'd post !

It's wise to consolidate your holdings. It wouldn’t have been good for your reputation if you did break the alliance. You made the right choices. Had the Turks remained your allies, it would have been ideal.

Your experience level is low, I'd recommend building that up as quickly as you can. This means your troops and your generals. As a minor detail I would recommend having each of your generals spend the turn in which a Heavy Armorer, is completed, in the settlement where it is completed. This will give each of your generals the Fine Armor ancillary, which translates to +4 hitpoints for your leader/s. Your troops would need to train against the Byzantines, the Venetians, the Moors and the Turks if they are to face the Hulegu's Horde.

It's good to hear of the night fighters; perhaps fighting further battles at night would enhance their command, but could have severe repercussions on your own eyesight!. Your men would benefit from an armor upgrade each, as great formations of these men will fall under Mongol arrows, should you meet this fiend on the field.

There seems to be a province specialization issue. Not sure but it's what I gather from the lack of armor upgrades, inability to train MHAs in quantities, and I was guessing there is no Master HB or HB HQ. However after having looked at your save game everything seems really rosy to me. You're doing GREAT. I would suggest a Merchant’s Guild at Cairo, Merchants HQ at Antioch; I think you already have a Merchants Master at Alexandria, which is great. Antioch has been proven to be the ideal location from a pure income perspective, for Merchants HQ. You were right about the pixels, watchtowers everywhere. None shall escape you my Frogtan ! That is certain!

As the Mongols have gone west they probably will not come south at all, and head for Poland. This remains to be seen, but I’m quite sure that is what will happen. I can’t remember where the second batch comes if the first appears north and goes west.

Your expansion will mean you will have to invest in new settlements, and new armies, more green armies. It is necessary to expand to finance your military but in the short run you may run a minor surplus, rather than a large one. If you intend to fight with green or almost green armies, you could as well disband everything (yeap, you heard that correctly) and you can recruit all your armies back to maximum strength within 5-7 turns. A lot of irate and juvenile gamers throw a tantrum when they hear me say that, but unfortunately, it works. YOU gain income. It does affect your military ranking. Now the question is do you, or, do you not want to fight. If you do want to fight then this dissolution of the army will invite an attack, probably on more than one front.

The alternative would be to hold your armies, train them in battle, build your economy, and attack those nations you wish to fight. Preferably get them to attack you. The second choice may be wiser for your first game.

My advice comes late, but for future Egyptian campaigns (do not shudder or cringe!) it may be best to simply eliminate the Turks, Byzantines and drive anyone else from the islands till Crete. Always feigning weakness to invite an attack, never striking first unless threatened (being threatened would truly be an historical event! as this is rare in M2:TW). Trade flows in this Eastern Mediterranean Empire and could, with ease, earn you 15K FL/turn or more. The Moors are far from your capital, which ideally is one of the cities in Palestine, for flavor and immersion, if nothing else. This makes them a tiring target to pursue unless you have a Mamluke Caliphate glorious achievement goal or global conquest as an objective. But of course their elimination is a game objective for this short campaign, so hike on up the African coast.

The other way is to be content with Egypt, personally I favor that for its simplicity. However with this simplicity come limitations. It is a trade off, one which you will have to endure. I am much slower than you it seems, when I do play slow. Last night I played a quick 114 turns as Egypt. Here’s my empire at turn 95:


https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/MTW2%20General/Egypt1.jpg

And you thought you were slow ?

Well that was an exceptional game. Mind you for slowpokes like me 2 turns per year is ideal (but you have to change all the event dates to match as well).

I had a look at your armies and I wonder if all those Arab Cavalry really serve a worthwhile purpose. They are an excellent unit but if you are not going to face the Mongols I would go straight for Mamlukes or preferably Royal Mamlukes. Typically 3 Royal Mamlukes plus your bodyguard is adequate for most early armies. If you face the Mongols you will need more Heavy Cavalry to back up your Mamluk Archers. Having more lancers in your army makes it easier to win because they have more staying power in pitched Euro style melee, than your missile cavalry. As such you could keep a heavier contingent in your armies for security if you felt you’d be more confident this way. You will need heavier cavalry in late game when and if, plate armor and muskets appear. I usually go for an army along these lines, in early game:


1 Bodyguard
3 Mamluks or Royal Mamluks
4 Desert Cavalry
12 Mamluk Archers


A Heavy Cavalry component, Javelin Cavalry for those extra hard enemies, all the rest is horse archers, multi purpose, training up to gold levels. HAs can be at least 50% of an army, which is the case in 2 of your stacks I believe. Your armies are sound, and you're a combat effective Frog. I would also recommend playing on normal unit size. All cavalry armies are all about maneuver, and less about slugging it out in fixed fights. Normal unit size allows you to use the maps more efficiently since you have more space to maneuver. Large unit sizes favor infantry. As infantry units get bigger cavalry is less effective. Large unit size is not ideal to learn or play all cavalry armies IMHO unless you have increased the battle map size.

Halberds and almost all other 2Handers are still not worth much in vanilla 1.2. Once you have finished this campaign, and you want to see how 2Hs really work, then I can, if you want, guide you through an installation of PureFixer 1.14 as a test run. You can use Med Manager, which is a mod switcher program that allows you to maintain your original M2:TW 1.20 vanilla untouched. So you can always switch back. This is my recommendation on 2Handers in 1.20, quite pointless and they don’t even add flavor. Annoyance is all they add for me in 1.20. PureFixer is not perfect either but 2Handers do work in PureFixer.

By the way your traders down in Sudan, would make more money elsewhere, such as Constantinople, if I’m not mistaken.

You have no ally which is strange for 1.20, you don’t need any of course. Here’s my save, I believe I managed to stay allied to almost everyone but the Hungarians who took rebel held Jerusalem and I declared my first Jihad (turn 94) on them. If you want to compare empires, help yourself:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/jvbl4o

It does look a bit like the historical version ! This is not a very serious attempt, but I wanted a slow and steady game. Had a few beers and took it easy. Blitz would look very different from this.

The fight for Jerusalem was very enjoyable. I rounded up about 8 Saracen Infantry (city garrisons), 4 Ballistae, 20 cavalry, 4 Naffatuns. Naffatuns are absolutely DEADLY in cities, especially if they are dropping their grenades from the walls down on the defenders. A shot from the fight at the city square:


https://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m78/ShahedK/MTW2%20General/Naffa1.jpg

About your frustrations of not fighting larger, harder battles. I mentioned this to Doug you can play real slow or you can go and look for the fight. If you want to fight you should attack as you have chosen to do so now. I always get them to attack me so I preserve my reputation in the process.


:gring: I got to fight some proper battles at last!

The Venetians and the Sicilians attacked me in concert, both sending full stack decent armies at me near Tripoli, an area where I only had 1 army made up of just over half a stack. I fought the stacks individually, but in each battle I was outnumbered by over 2-1. I won both, with heroic victories. It was very intense, and great fun to fight. Surrounding them with my Mamluk HAs, shooting into them from every direction, smashing their pavise crossbows when they ventured out of position to chase my Mamluks, scattering before their knights and sergeants, charging isolated and battered units with my Arab cavalry - incredibly messy looking battles, and I had to pause to keep up with it all in the busier phases, but so much fun.

Hehe, nothing beats having the enemy general galloping about on his armoured horsie trying to catch any of the four units of Mamluks shooting at him from each point of the compass. I felt sorry for the old duffer.

And as for that 9 unit stack of spear militia they sent in to relieve a siege of a settlement which had 3 more units of spear militia in it, well that was cruel. I didn't take a single loss. None of the enemy survived.

The Pope has taken exception to my victories; he's declared war on me and is moving to attack my nice little islands.

A crusade has been declared on Tripoli.

I have this nagging worry that I am over-extended in the West, between the mainland and the islands. It's going to take turns to get reinforcements out to that area, and I may not have turns if all three factions act at once.

Oh, and because one can never have too much fun - and because they had overstretched badly and left themselves achingly vulnerable while I had 4 full stacks stood about doing nothing - I declared war on the Turks. Two settlements captured, 4 more under siege, and they keep begging for peace. I want to carry on up to the mountain ranges so I only need to defend a pair of mountain passes against possible Mongol incursions, so I keep refusing. I may let them keep their single settlement on the Steppes, if I feel generous, if I decide it may risk attracting the attention of Mr Khan and friends.

:charge:

Your 2nd post sounds much more like you’ve got the hang of it ! Glad to read that you are finally enjoying it. If you think the Mamluks are good you could eventually try Turcomans, they are faster, gain experience much faster simply because they always stay away from melee and get their kills through missile fire. I do not discount Mamluks at all, they are great as well, and only wish there was a lighter, faster version. DELIGHTED to hear of the 9 unit stack. Training is always best on all infantry armies.

http://tinypic.com/jsj49t.jpg

Mongol commanders would organize hunts, in which entire divisions would participate. They would herd game down to a narrow area and hunt them down from horseback using their bows. This training would not only train their horsemen in the arts of mounted archery, but would also result in an exceptional feast.

You are actually over extended in the West, (nothing you can't handle though). Tripoli is not a castle so it will take time to get reinforcements to that front. It may be wise to develop your navy and introduce a naval blockade from north to south stretching from Corinth to Tripoli across the Mediterranean, Do not allow any of your enemies’ navies to penetrate this blockade. Your navy will also get troops to the front faster by loading where the Nile breaks into the sea, and from Gaza. It will be quicker to supply fresh troops to the front by sea.

The Mongols are almost certainly not coming your way but if you head into the steppe, you may attract their attention. If you get big fast, you may activate the “band together” trigger. I would go for it. Sarkel is really not worth much IMO. A Turkish vassal there would be a nice little buffer between you and Mr. Khan’s associates.

WE are the LIGHT !
http://www.antoniomargheriti.com/images/Genghis%20khan/Genghis02.jpg

MOUNT UP ! WE RIDE!

Doug-Thompson
05-23-2007, 14:53
WE are the LIGHT !

We are now, Sinan. It's been a long ride but well worth it. :D

For most of the Total War series, missile cavalry were a lot of trouble. Now they're worth it.

People carried lessons from MTW1 into this game, though. Mostly, that's a good thing, but not always. An orthodoxy set in before this game was released. I think we're having some success at shaking it up. That was the meaning of my "dark side" reference.

pike master
05-23-2007, 15:09
since frog has been converted to the treacherous horse armies i suppose im all alone now with spears, pikes and gunpowder.

~:mecry: 8*(

Shahed
05-23-2007, 15:19
Doug, quite right you are. :bow:
I meant it in the Star Wars sense. Feel the force, (Mam)..Luke. (HAHA!)

It's never been better to play this way. I only hope they will improve the game further. Every playing style should be viable.

mad mech... try the Moors vs France challenge I posted, it should be fun, all gunpowder.

frogbeastegg
05-23-2007, 16:16
"Yes, YES. Feel the power of the Dark Side" (Evil cackle)
Nnnooooooo! I don't want a red lightsabre! They're ugly! ~:mecry:




Thanks for the reply. I'd like to comment, if I may. Most of this is kind of late... but hey I was writing it whenever I could so I figured I'd post !
Thanks. I'm on holiday for a few days, so I've been writing things up and then playing for an hour or two. Sometimes I come back and write up the latest, sometimes I leave it until later. I'm hoping to complete this campagin before I go back to work.

The save game I sent you was a bit on from the post before you asked for it, but a bit behind my most recent one.


Your experience level is low, I'd recommend building that up as quickly as you can.
My Western army is levelling up nicely. The Turks aren't playing nicely, so my other armies aren't getting much chance to engage in battle. Oh well. This is why I usually prefer to have fewer, elite armies.


There seems to be a province specialization issue. Not sure but it's what I gather from the lack of armor upgrades, inability to train MHAs in quantities, and I was guessing there is no Master HB or HB HQ. However after having looked at your save game everything seems really rosy to me.
That savegame is about 20 turns further on from the post where I said I was having to scrape together my armies from everywhere. I'd been working on getting that mass recruitment in place, but it took so long to grow the cities to the right size and then I hit a bit of a cash crunch because of the sheer expense of having to upgrade so many higher level cities all at once. That massive army ate up a lot of my income in support costs too, so I had to expand my economy over and above what is usually necessary. Before I raised it I had ~10k per turn surplus. Then I had problems with happiness! In the earlier phases of the game I'd been able to keep everything on V. high taxes and still have green faces with a low level mosque and a sisha den. When the population reached critical mass this, obviously, changed. Thus armour buildings fell into a forth place priority except in a few settlements.

I've played further on from this point, and now I have good armour in most places. Also merchant's guilds in something like half my cities.

Heh, when using my usual armies I place high priority on armour upgrades. This time I haven't felt so much need for it, probably becasue I rarely engage in melee.


If you intend to fight with green or almost green armies, you could as well disband everything
I'd prefer experienced armies. However I'm thinking that once I finish with the Turks I shall be able to disband some of these armies, saving the best units to careate some veteran stacks, which I shall then ensure have the best armour upgrades.


I wonder if all those Arab Cavalry really serve a worthwhile purpose.
I wonder too. They don't see much action; my HAs do nearly all of the work. I may reform a stack with the composition you suggest, see how it feels in use.

As for the large unit size, I'm testing out my shiny two month old PC. I can have everything on maximum settings and it's still as smooth as butter. :gring: I also like the effects larger unit sizes have on infantry; you can deploy them in decent depth while still maintaining a good frontage. Amazingly, I haven't had any problems maneuvering these large units about.


Halberds and almost all other 2Handers are still not worth much in vanilla 1.2.
The only two-hander I've used in battle in 1.2 was the basic billman with some armour upgrades. They were rather good, so I thought the same may be true of others, to greater and lesser extents depending on unit quality.


You are actually over extended in the West, (nothing you can't handle though). Tripoli is not a castle so it will take time to get reinforcements to that front. It may be wise to develop your navy and introduce a naval blockade from north to south stretching from Corinth to Tripoli across the Mediterranean, Do not allow any of your enemies’ navies to penetrate this blockade. Your navy will also get troops to the front faster by loading where the Nile breaks into the sea, and from Gaza. It will be quicker to supply fresh troops to the front by sea.
Yes. Presently I'm holding position and building up in the West, and still pushing through the Turks with ease. I'm working on a second large fleet, and a smaller one for transport purposes. Venice sued for peace, so now it's just Sicily and the Pope to fight on that front.





since frog has been converted to the treacherous horse armies i suppose im all alone now with spears, pikes and gunpowder.
I'm not a complete convert. I can't abide beseiging things with these cavalry hordes! So unwieldy and wasteful. Pity Egpyt doesn't have muhc in the way of decent infantry for this purpose. There are other times and circumstances in which I'd rather use infantry heavy or balanced forces. No matter how nice it is to run rings about the enemy, I'll always have a love for my massed longbows raining death upon the foe from a nice hill.

I have plans for a game with a faction which can do both sides, Byzantium or Hungrary or something. Small, mobile cavalry only armies to harass, patrol, pick off isolated forces, clean up rebels, and strike; a couple of balanced armies with HA contingents to conquer.

I also want to try using melee cavalry a bit more. This campaign is actually the one where I have used it the least! There have been entire battles where my melee cavalry haven't moved a step.



One thing I have noticed is that compared to RTW missile cavalry is a bit crap at shooting on the move. In RTW they just got on with it and the results were visible. Here they don't seem to bother most of the time, however close they are to a good target. Is there some extra trick to it? I do have F@W on.

Shahed
05-23-2007, 16:44
Holiday Frog... If you play "correctly" you never have to siege with an all cavalry army. (I HOPE all the others who ask this question are LISTENING too so I don't have to retype).

This is because you catch their armies outside and completely annihilate them. Then you walk in to the empty cities. When this does not work to perfection, you might run into 1 or 2 units in the city. You hire one merc to pull the ram and just walk in. You really shouldn’t have to siege at all. If you do play slow, like I do, then what you do is pull up a siege army with artillery and some infantry. You STILL destroy the enemy's military in the FIELD. i.e. you do NOT go to their cities, you lay ambush, stay out of line of sight and hit them with your superior movement points. Then you move your small siege army (of 6? maybe 8?) units and assault the city on the first turn, backed by your cavalry.

The Turks have a Longbow equivalent, the Janissary Archer, which is definitely a match (or more) for the longbow. They have the Janissary Musketeer which completely outclasses the Longbow (and most missile troops). They have the light horse archer which is fast moving, the Turcoman. They have Kapikulu, heavy cavalry on the lines of Hospitallers. They have Janissary Heavy Infantry, no need to elaborate on that one. Plus they have the normal spear, halberd, militia etc lineup.

The Hungarians are similar, but they are like the Catholic factions, They play differently but not differently enough IMO. I think they will be fun though, a sort of "midway house".

I love playing the English too BTW, I'm a fan of anything missile. Last English campaign I played I had 10 LBs per army. Was pure bliss. I also modded Sherwood Archers to have missile attack of 15. Naturally I played like usual, I gave 1 Million to all factions over a few turns, plus more and more when needed. I had a great game ! I actually faced high end troops this way, amazing battles. I must have a save game, but that was with 1.10+1.13 PureFixer. English Dismounted Knights.... pffft, destroyed EVERYTHING. They were at the level of JHI. &#205; haven’t tried but I'm guessing they are still not excellent in 1.20 (like they were in 1.13 PureFixer).

I don't usually use auto fire on, with my missile cav unless they are moving AND need to shoot at the same time. They do fine. I usually arrive at a firing spot, select a target and fire, move and repeat (Byzantine style ?). When the going is tough I keep moving and leave auto fire on. I'm not sure I understand what's happening in your game. Might help to review the Hunters guide in the move and shoot section.

Did I miss anything ?

CONGRATS !!! on your new PC !!! Enjoy it ! :2thumbsup:

Ohh... you know about the bug where if F@W is on and units are grouped, and you give them a new target they still target the last one ? That might be the issue. You have to ungroup and regroup each time you want a new target, to be safe. Press shift (or space IIRC) to see the red markers which indicate which enemy they are shooting at, if they are not shooting at the correct target, ungroup, click new target, regroup. You might want to read the enfilade section in the Hunters guide. To tell you in one line: Concentrate your fire on one target at a time with as many of your own units firing as you can, from the sides or rear in a crossfire.

pike master
05-23-2007, 19:53
these are campaign strategies i used with many cav factions in rome that would work here as well.

1) to create dedicated horse mini armies to clean up on your rebel armies using the horses extra movement points to get around

2) use massed horse armies and when you need to attack a city hire mercenaries to man the battering rams or artillery mercenaries to crack the walls. once you have defeated the settlement garrison it with those same mercenaries and move to your next settlement.

the second technique can help you conquer the map rather quickly.

or with the eastern factions you could bring cannon elephants with you when you get them to take out the gates or light walls.

CMcMahon
05-24-2007, 07:03
If I do an all cav army, it's always 100% missile cav, with the exception of the general (assuming that I have one). I find that doing half missile cav armies work better for me, though, simply because it's so easy to nail them from behind while they go for the larger portion of your army (infantry, general, archers).

Shahed
05-24-2007, 07:55
Hi Everyone !

I need some backup here:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=85870

Please kindly help out by testing that replay, I think that one should work.
It's a basic introduction replay to all cavalry combined arms.
Froggy, that replay should answer your questions on F@W.

Many thanks in advance!

frogbeastegg
05-24-2007, 18:21
I won :balloon: Had a few more battles in the West, but I finished my short campaign's goals comfortably. The Turks gave me no trouble at all. I didn't reorganise my armies or anything; I just kept pushing onwards, since victory was so close and I was getting a little bored.

I may try a Byzantine game next, or Hungary. I don't want to try the Turks yet; having done one campaign in that area I'd like to move to somewhere a little different.


If you play "correctly" you never have to siege with an all cavalry army. This is because you catch their armies outside and completely annihilate them.
The AI didn't want to play ~:) It sat in its settlements and refused to come out. It would send out invading armies, move about tiny armies of troops, and sally on the last turn before surrender, but otherwise it simply would not budge.


Ohh... you know about the bug where if F@W is on and units are grouped ...
I know, and I actually like that feature ~:) Try getting a line of infantry, group them and then click on an enemy unit in the centre of their battle line and you will see why. The whole group will march forwards keeping pace and position, each automatically assigned a target in the enemy line so that the two lines will engage as lines, not blobs. Saves some fiddling, and the result is usually sensible.

I agree it's a pain when ordering a group of missile units to shoot at the same target though. You have to order them individually.


I watched the replay. Nice battle. Personally I'd only have used 2 units of HAs to cut down the routing archers, not all 4. This way you could have continued to pour arrows into the backs of the advancing infantry. Having all 4 cut down a handful of routers seemed wasteful. But hey, I'm an all cavalry newbie, so I probably missed the point.


I think I need to explain my comment about shooting on the move better. In RTW you could take a unit of missile cavalry and, leaving F@W on, order them to run past an enemy unit. As they went by, provided they were in range, they would shoot at the enemy unit without stopping. This was one of my favourite uses for javelin cavalry; I had then run around all over the place throwing their missiles until they ran out. It was also great when the better units of missile cav were skirmishing away from attacking units; they would use the Parthian shot technique to fill their pursuers full of arrows.

Now missile cavalry seems to function much more like it did in STW and MTW; it needs to be stationary before it will shoot. The only time I've seen them shoot while moving was when chasing routers. Unless I'm not using the right units; not all units in RTW could do the Parthian shot. I did expect Mamluks to be able to.

Kobal2fr
05-24-2007, 18:27
Now missile cavalry seems to function much more like it did in STW and MTW; it needs to be stationary before it will shoot. The only time I've seen them shoot while moving was when chasing routers. Unless I'm not using the right units; not all units in RTW could do the Parthian shot. I did expect Mamluks to be able to.

Hmmm they are. I know because I got a unit of border raiders all shot up trying to catch up 8 friggin' Mamluks :) Besides, Jinetes, Khazaks, Turcomans... no, I'm pretty sure every kind of horse missile can shoot on the move, 360° (maybe need F@W on though ?). But they do have much better accuracy when parked.

ELITEofWARMANGINGERYBREADMEN88
05-25-2007, 15:31
Besides my Infamous Swiss Armouded Pikemen/Swiss Guard Armies,along with Mech Cat, I also love using Mongols on MP, and even though this is SP, this helps quite a bit. GoodThread.

Doug-Thompson
05-25-2007, 16:25
Now missile cavalry seems to function much more like it did in STW and MTW; it needs to be stationary before it will shoot. The only time I've seen them shoot while moving was when chasing routers. Unless I'm not using the right units; not all units in RTW could do the Parthian shot. I did expect Mamluks to be able to.

Now that's interesting. I know that accuracy is particularly bad when shooting backwards, but never quantified that in any way. This could use some checking out. I'm sure they shoot on the move, however. For instance, you can see the muzzle flash of camel gunners while they're moving.

Doug-Thompson
05-25-2007, 16:51
Re: Infantry and sieges.

This wasn't a problem with the ridiculously overpowered spies we had before the patch. Now it's a significant issue.

Mercenaries work well enough in the early game, but that option gets more chancy the longer the game goes on and city defenses get better.

My Egyptian campaigns rely on a "daisy chain" of forts, garrisoned by partial units left over from sieges. Saracen infantry from Alexandria and Cairo keep flowing up the chain. That way, none of them rebel and a family member isn't tied down suffling infantry. IIRC, it goes something like this:

Alexandria to Cairo
Cairo to Fort #1
Fort #1 to Fort #2
Fort#2 to Gaza
Gaza to Jerusalem
Jerusalem to Fort #3
Fort #3 to Damascus
Damascus to Aleppo
Aleppo to Fort #4, near Edessa
Fort #4 to Edessa
Edessa to Fort #5
Fort #5 to Mosul
Mosul to Baghdad

That's only a rough recollection. I'm probably leaving something out. Also, cities are so close in Asia Minor that you don't need forts.

The idea is to surround a city with cavalry and have them build the siege equipment. Have the infantry get there ASAP and use the siege equipment. Use the city you just captured as part of the chain.

Or just declare a Jihad, which is vastly easier — when it's possible.

Shahed
05-25-2007, 17:25
I was just playing with the Cinematic Editor, to get a shot of firing on the move, I just missed the firing LOL... at least you can see them loading though ! Anyway I did this in about 40 minutes so I figured I'd post it anyway....I will try again later to get a firing shot. These mamlukes speak Mongol or Korean to each other, must be in the service from the Far East. Have a look:

Mamlukes on the Move. (http://fs04n4.sendspace.com/dl/8d4e6a6aff1abac3206bf24fb8b6b5b1/46570d3e5eae9e33/y7nywi/Quickie.wmv) (with sound so watch out if you're at the office !)

Will post back later on other points.

frogbeastegg
05-25-2007, 17:39
Bizarre. I tested the shoot'n'move technique in a couple of custom battles. It works exactly like I remember it did in RTW. Yet in my campaign it simply would not at all. I'd tried many times, and even spent time zoomed right in close watching what the units were doing. In the custom battles it was obvious they were doing in while zoomed as far out as possible; I could see the missiles and hear the shooting sound effects. I used the same units as in the campaign too. It is also working in my new campaign.



I've started a Byzantine campaign now, H/VH. It's lively, and far more to my tastes than my Egyptian game.

So far I have been attacked by the Venetians, the Sicilians, and Hungary. Venice in particular is highly aggressive, landing half stack armies on Rhodes every few turns. Fortunately they're full of militia spears, so I shoot them to bits with 7 units of HAs. I'm holding my mainland border with a similar force. Had some fun sinking troop transports filled with half stack armies too. Alas, my navy isn't yet big enough to completely protect my shores. I would almost say that I have fought more field battles in 27 turns of this game than in all of my Egypt one. Hungary has grown into a monster! It grabbed every rebel province near it so quickly no one else had a chance, and it’s taken land from Poland too.

I've taken a couple of rebel provinces to get myself some nice neat borders, and I've been building up while defending. It's not easy; I could really use more soldiers and a larger navy, but then my income will be truly pitiful. I'm allied to the Turks, and intend to stay that way for as long as possible. On the last turn I played before I saved and quit my first mixed army (4 Vardewhatsit, 4 spear-somethings, 3 archer militia, 1 general) came into operation and I sent it to siege the closest Hungarian province, Sofia. The infantry and foot archer sides of my military both need teching up, but for now this will do to complement the pure HA armies I'm using to guard my borders. I’ll also be sending a force to take Iraklion as soon as I can muster the necessary bodies.

The best battle so far was when I used slightly under 800 men to completely destroy a Venetian army of more than 2,000. I ran out of arrows after disposing of their cavalry, missile support and half of their spears, so I did some careful charge and pull back melee work to finish it off.

Shahed
05-25-2007, 17:44
Excellent. Keep it up ! :2thumbsup:

Doug-Thompson
05-25-2007, 17:56
Bizarre. I tested the shoot'n'move technique in a couple of custom battles. It works exactly like I remember it did in RTW. Yet in my campaign it simply would not at all. I'd tried many times, and even spent time zoomed right in close watching what the units were doing. In the custom battles it was obvious they were doing in while zoomed as far out as possible; I could see the missiles and hear the shooting sound effects. I used the same units as in the campaign too. It is also working in my new campaign.

As much as I hate to cry "bug," that would explain why it didn't work in one campaign and did work in another.


The best battle so far was when I used slightly under 800 men to completely destroy a Venetian army of more than 2,000. I ran out of arrows after disposing of their cavalry, missile support and half of their spears, so I did some careful charge and pull back melee work to finish it off.

2,000 wiped out. Excellent :yes: Were your losses acceptable?

pike master
05-25-2007, 18:15
one thing i dont like is that all javelin throwing horse and infantry almost never seem to run out of ammo very quickly. i mean arent they only supposed to have two or three javelins apiece tops?

rome and mtw/vi were much more realistic on this.

Doug-Thompson
05-25-2007, 18:28
one thing i dont like is that all javelin throwing horse and infantry almost never seem to run out of ammo very quickly. i mean arent they only supposed to have two or three javelins apiece tops?

rome and mtw/vi were much more realistic on this.

IIRC, Roman legionaires in RTW had three javelins but velites, peltasts and so fourth had 8.

I have no idea how many javelins such troops carried in history.

Shahed
05-25-2007, 18:39
I did a quick video using good old FRAPs, all cavalry.
This took about 30 minutes, lot faster than the cinematic editor, though the editor is miles ahead of this in quality.

This is just for fun, not meant to be art.
Been a while since I did any video editing, I wanted to have a go again.

Timurids vs Egypt Video. (http://www.sendspace.com/file/gcqzd5) (<-link) 5 Megs, 1 minute long.

Doug-Thompson
05-25-2007, 20:49
Anybody have much experience with Hussars, Italian Cavalry Militia or Polish Retainers?

I've never played any of those, but those units appear to give a pretty good bang for the buck considering their stats and low upkeep. However, none of them are catagorized as "fast," the highest speed category.

The best bargain, by far, for a fast pure melee cav unit appears to be the Scottish Border Horse, with Albanian Cavalry and Stratdiots tied for second and Alan mercenaries taking third.

Zenicetus
05-26-2007, 03:42
Hi, another HA fan here. :charge: I still like mixed arms.... love Spain for that, but it's too easy. I'm on a HA binge for a while, for variety in tactics (and because I still sorta suck at it). I started with the Turks... that was a lot of fun, and fairly easy. I'm currently on a Hungarian campaign.


I haven't tried the Hungarians yet in campaign, but they might be exactly what you're lookiing for: Western European infantry armies to practice upon, another faction with horse archers in the Byzantines, and finally a fully developed Turkis HA faction to fight once you get through the Byzantines.

I can't imagine Hungary being left in peace or being too boring, considering they border at least 4 factions: Byzantium, Venice, HRE, Poland and — once somebody conquers an Eastern Steppe province — Russia.

It's an interesting faction. I think it's the only HA Catholic faction, so you're dealing with His Hatness, but you can also call Crusades against your Muslim neighbors. So it balances out. And you don't have any religion unrest issues when you take over Catholic neighbors.

I'm early in my current campaign, just about to make a blitz on Venice so I have a toe-hold in the Med for building up some naval strength and sea trade. The starting provinces are very poor, so that's a strong incentive to expand fairly quickly. Probably not a good faction for turtling. The Turks are easier in this respect, because once you get established in the Middle East, the gold just flows in. And that can happen fairly quickly. Hungary is more economy-challenged, until you get things rolling. And while you're doing that, you have plenty of aggressive neighbors eying your lands. It's fairly easy to stay friends with Poland and the HRE. Russia isn't a threat early on (race to Kiev ahead of the Poles, to get a good northern frontier and deny it to Russia). But the Byzantines and the more aggressive Italian factions are a real threat. And then you get to deal with the Mongols later, if they head north.


Re: Infantry and sieges.

This wasn't a problem with the ridiculously overpowered spies we had before the patch. Now it's a significant issue.

It's a little harder now, but I haven't found it to be a major problem until midgame or later, when you might run into cities full of enemy spies as a deterrent. In the early game, I've had pretty good success opening gates for a cav-heavy army. The main difference is I don't usually get the gates open on the first assault turn. So I hire infntry mercs for the rams (usually two or three rams at least, in case one is torched, so I can hit more than one gate).

If the gate isn't opened by my spy on the first turn, it's often opened on the second or third turn of the siege. If I don't get the gates open by the third turn, I go ahead with a merc-heavy attack. I disband the mercs a turn or two after taking the settlement to save money, once I have some new militia in place.

Anyway, I'm still learning how to be a good HA commander. I'm still screwing up a lot... mostly with trying to figure out when to switch certain units to melee attack.

Kobal2fr
05-26-2007, 05:19
one thing i dont like is that all javelin throwing horse and infantry almost never seem to run out of ammo very quickly. i mean arent they only supposed to have two or three javelins apiece tops?

rome and mtw/vi were much more realistic on this.

Well, historically Russian nobles had javelin "quivers" holding 3 metal javelins on each side of their saddles, plus one in hand at the start of a battle, giving them 7 shots. That's about what Boyar's Sons get in-game (not sure about Jinetes though).

frogbeastegg
05-26-2007, 09:39
As much as I hate to cry "bug," that would explain why it didn't work in one campaign and did work in another.
The thought whispers at the back of my mind also.

Anyway, I'm very pleased the feature is indeed present in M2TW. It's one of the most effective ways I found to use javelin cavalry. :dreams of riding a unit past one of those big clumped up mobs the AI sometimes ends up with, loosing several volleys of javelins into the sea of humanity ...:


2,000 wiped out. Excellent :yes: Were your losses acceptable?
More than acceptable considering the army I faced and the terrain I ended up fighting in. They had good ranged support, and plenty of heavy cavalry, including one of those massive faction leader bodyguard units. The terrain was highly mountainous with a valley running through the centre, great for funnelling the AI and shooting at them from an advantageous position, but very difficult to manoeuvre in once they had made it out of the valley. Most of it was very steep uphill, and the whole area was studded in impassable rock formations. Worst battlefield I’ve seen in the game.

Less acceptable in terms of what I could afford to lose in the long term. It weakened my Venice/Hungary border army sufficiently that I had to send it back to Corinth to retrain. My forming mixed forces army had to hold the border for the turns this took, and it was much less able to fight. Fortunately it all turned out well; no one attacked on that border, and Venice started to focus its attention on landing armies on Rhodes, which I protect with a different army.

29% losses, the in-battle red bar told me.



A question: How do you experts get your units to stay in the formation you deploy them in? I’ll do a crappy diagram to make this clear. I deploy them like this:

Xxxxxx
Xxxxxx
Xxxxxx

Basically a square formation. Then halfway through the battle I find their default formation becomes something daft, such as this:

Xx
Xx
Xx
Xx
Xx
Xx
Xx
Xx

I never order them to deploy in such a formation, and it’s not a trick of the way they have stopped to shoot after moving either. If I issue another move order and hold down space the blobs showing where they will move to appears in whatever silly formation they’ve decided to adopt. It’s a menace.

EDIT: I should also say that I know I'm not accidentally issuing orders to reform in new formations. I move them around with clicks, double clicks and attack orders; they respond as quickly as cavalry can, and I don't see the little ghosts begin to appear to re-shape the formation.

pike master
05-26-2007, 12:49
the changing formation is something that has come up post 1.02.

if you command a unit to advance beyond a certian distance the formation will change to a more maneuvrable formation. i dont like this added feature but some think it is good. i personally dont like having to remake my formation after advancing. more micro managment.:wall:

Doug-Thompson
05-27-2007, 06:48
Re: Changing formation.

Blasted nusance. While the "distance travelling" explanation sounds reasonable, I can't find that much rhyme or reason to it.

Whacker
05-27-2007, 07:03
Re: Changing formation.

Blasted nusance. While the "distance travelling" explanation sounds reasonable, I can't find that much rhyme or reason to it.

ANY changing of formation whatsoever is a complete nuisance in my view. If I put a unit in said formation, they should STAY in that formation no matter what. *cue up rant about how RTW mechanics were vastly superior, etc etc etc*

Started a new campaign as the Milanese. Great ranged infantry, but MAN do I miss my HA's now. I'm a true-blue full-blown convert to the Church of Ranged Cavalry now. :grin: Might go back and try another RTW Armenia campaign in earnest here in the near future.

Gabicho
05-28-2007, 07:57
Hey people, just registered here, even though i've been a reader for quite a while.


I'm a cavalry lover. However, i have to confess i do use infantry; for garrison duty :sweatdrop: .

I wanted to share with you guys this link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5448367499255467471&q=kassai

It's about hungarian horse archery (and archery). Makes me wanna go train that so badly... (I just need to marry a rich hungarian girl :idea2: )



WAR CAVALRY!!!

Kobal2fr
05-28-2007, 09:58
That video is awesome, and by that I mean totally sweet. Also, it's a LARPer's wet dream :laugh4:

Shahed
06-03-2007, 19:02
Gabicho & Zenicitus welcome aboard !
That video is AWESOME. Thank you so much for sharing that ! I very much enjoyed watching that video.

Hey everyone ! have a look at this, closely:


Originally posted by Chaga (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/member.php?u=27515).
http://www.ir-tmca.com/exhibition/negargari/images/52.jpg



Tell me what is unique about the cavalry in this image.

Kobal2fr
06-03-2007, 20:48
The horses have freakishly thin legs ?

Shahed
06-03-2007, 21:37
Nope, that's is not le point.

Orda Khan
06-04-2007, 00:06
Hey people, just registered here, even though i've been a reader for quite a while.


I'm a cavalry lover. However, i have to confess i do use infantry; for garrison duty :sweatdrop: .

I wanted to share with you guys this link:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-5448367499255467471&q=kassai

It's about hungarian horse archery (and archery). Makes me wanna go train that so badly... (I just need to marry a rich hungarian girl :idea2: )



WAR CAVALRY!!!
Welcome Gabicho, tether your pony and enjoy the hospitality.
A note on HA training....(but first)
It is a credit to Doug that the HA has reached this lofty height and now enjoys the acclaim usually afforded to knights and other such shiny abominations.
The humble HA, a quiver of arrows and a few clutched in his fist to facilitate rapid fire from his trusty composite bow as he rides swiftly on his equally reliable, tough pony tantalisingly, dangerously close to enemy lines, his limited protection the final display of contempt.

The true skill of HA can be appreciated if you read Kassai's book and discover the amount of hard work and suffering he endured to achieve his amazing levels of skill.
Imagine a mass of these horsemen, what a sight to behold.

Training involves so much more than simply riding a horse and shooting a bow. I took part in the British Field Archery Competition last weekend. A guy in my group gave it a try about 5 years ago........He has only recently returned to any form of archery after he broke his spine.
Seeing Kassai in action only serves to make me admire even more, those who loosed the bow from horseback

.......Orda

Shahed
06-04-2007, 11:36
This is a good but short video, with a couple of seconds of horse archery at the end: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJw8ETRFhKo

Orginally posted by Chagatai Khan (TWC).

ninjahboy
06-04-2007, 12:13
some guy got speared through the head?

Shahed
06-04-2007, 13:11
Nope.

You have to look at the cavalry, they are doing something reasonably rarely seen in cavalry tactics.

Doug-Thompson
06-04-2007, 15:36
They're riding and fighting through mountains.

Shahed
06-04-2007, 15:42
Yes, that is true of perspective. The artist is rendering the backdrop to the battle. The script is Persian.

However that is not what I am seeing. It's about the cavalrymen themselves.
If I give any further hints I would give it away. Ok well one more hint if it helps, these are Timurids.

Btw not trying to prove anything.
Just making a quest out of it to get the old gray matter going. If you guys want me to tell, just say and I will.

Guru
06-04-2007, 16:38
Tell me what is unique about the cavalry in this image.

Well, I've looked pretty closely. With a magnifying glass actually. And I'm pretty sure I haven't found what you are after...
It's about the cavalrymen? Are they all Timurids? If not, who are they fighting? If yes, why are they fighting each other? Why are they wearing happy colours? Have they lost their war maks? Is it about their weapons or armour? Did they not know how to shave beards? They all carry bows and arrows? They use two-handed spears?


Confused Guru out

Buckers
06-04-2007, 16:42
I must be included I suppose as Iam an ex Hussar! Yes I to love to be overloaded by cav

Monsieur Alphonse
06-04-2007, 16:44
Lancers (heavy cavalry) are attacking horse archers ore vice versa?

Monsieur Alphonse
06-04-2007, 16:44
Lancers (heavy cavalry) are attacking horse archers or vice versa?

Furious Mental
06-04-2007, 17:18
The horsemen in the background are deciding the battle by having a horn blowing competition?

Despite the cryptic question, it's a great (I assume) contemporary illustration. Do you have any more?

Shahed
06-04-2007, 17:20
LOL...

Welcome aboard Buckers.

It's a painting from the 14th century. I'm gonna repost with the details.
Last hint.. come on you guys ... it's about the weaponcombination they are using. They are using a unique combination.

Guru
06-04-2007, 17:27
Last hint.. come on you guys ... it's about the weaponcombination they are using. They are using a unique combination.

Is it about their weapons or armour? -- They all carry bows and arrows? They use two-handed spears?

2-spears, swords, bows and arrows? Maybe a hidden good ol' Russian nuke?

Shahed
06-04-2007, 17:32
Yeap, they all carry lances and bows, all the Timurids that is.

Furious Mental
06-04-2007, 17:35
Didn't ancient cataphracts also carry lances and bows?

Incidentally why do they use the lances like that?

Shahed
06-04-2007, 17:36
Probably did.

Furious Mental
06-04-2007, 17:41
There is some famous bas relief of a sassanid cataphract somewhere, not sure where exactly in Iran, but anyway the bloke has a lance and a quiver (which would imply a bow). Seems somewhat awkward to me.

Orda Khan
06-04-2007, 22:10
Judging accuracy from paintings is not 100% reliable, remember the artist may be gifted in his field but there is nothing to say he ever witnessed a battle

........Orda

Shahed
06-04-2007, 22:11
Correct.

That is either the battle of Aleppo or Damascus, Timurids vs Mamlukes. I'm hoping for a translation by next week, nothing guaranteed though. I'm not vouching for the accuracy of that artist. I'm researching his credentials as well.

This also not the first painting I have seen of Timurid cavalry with lances and bows.
I will try to find out if this is an accurate depiction or not.

I posted it because I felt this is really cool, and no unit has this in M2. Bows and lances. I felt it was unique in the game world terms.

The practical difficulties of using these weapons are quite clear to me.

PutCashIn
06-04-2007, 22:39
Hmm, if you could 'sling' a bow (across your back), could you 'sling' a lance?

If one was to live off the back of a horse I guess you'd have to be ready for different battle roles....like a soldier carrying a LAW rocket and a Rifle...?

(And hitting your self in the back of the head with, say, a M79 must be kinda close to hitting yourself in the back of the head with your Lance, these sorts of things just happen when your all hot and jumping around)

Caliburn
06-04-2007, 22:49
After having played a few campaigns, I believe the most interesting potential full horse armies are Polish, especially for the Early field. The Polish unit roster is quite weird, but I believe one of the most fun as well.

They were my second faction in M2, and I didn't quite know them yet, and only used Polish Nobles, Lithuanian Cavalry and Hussars, plus crusading orders and a few Retainers. Hussars kick ass, stat-wise they are very tough for light cavalry. not so light in my books.

I've never quite known what to think about Mounted Crossbows, but the Polish ones are a bit more interesting than the basic ones - available very early, they have basic stats combined with an armour piercing secondary attack. It's only 7 but with AP it becomes quite useful I'd imagine. Maybe I'll have to look into them again one day.

Has anyone more insight to the M2 Polish cavalry? I think the Polish campaign was the best one I had, I especially liked the strangeness and limitations of the unit roster, not to mention the strategic problems and possibilities. Still one of my favourite unit, Polish Nobles are amazing, and never stopped surprising me with mighty deeds of arms.

Doug-Thompson
06-04-2007, 23:05
Hussars kick ass, stat-wise they are very tough for light cavalry. not so light in my books.

... Still one of my favourite unit, Polish Nobles are amazing, and never stopped surprising me with mighty deeds of arms.

Hussars are amazing. Consider this comparison with West European Chivalric Knights:

1. The Hussar costs 180 florins less to produce and 40 florins less per turn to maintain. (Eastern CKs cost 50 florins less to recruit than their western cousins, for a direct comparison.)

2. Chivalric knights’ clearest superiority is in the charge. They have a top-of-the-line charge+melee of 21, clearly superior to the Hussar’s charge of 19 since the CK has more mass.

3. Melee attack value is the same.

4. CKs have more armor, but Hussars have more skill and the same shield value, making the total difference on defensive stats a whopping two points. (one for the Eastern CK, which has a weaker shield.) However, CKs have better all-round defense against arrows because so much of their defense is in armor.

5. Hussars are faster, with normal speed compared to heavy knight speed.

6. Morale is the same. Hussars have normal discipline, making them less prone to charge without orders.

7. Hussars come from huge towns, so they don't take up a knight recruitment slot. This makes massing good cavalry easier. So which should you build? Both.

From charges to sustained melee to chasing down routers including fleeing generals, there’s no melee cavalry role Hussars cannot perform well.

=========

Polish Nobles have a good claim to being one of the best all-around cavalry units in the game, missile or melee. Outstanding.

Shahed
06-04-2007, 23:14
PutCashIn it's not practical but it's entirely feasible. I'd just love to see cavalry with lances and bows in M2, though. Might even make the Timmys and Mongols a "real" challenge if coupled with other modifications. Only that would mean no swords, but hey I'm sure you could make something interesting out of it. Caliburn, good points, taken. Doug, nice analysis, also the more I look at it the more those that "should" really excel at cavalry actually don't. CA have done it yet again. We need to look in game terms, not historically, e.g the Moors are defintely a very OVERpotent cavalry power but they really "should'nt" be. Bye bye history. Anyway that's already long established so that's the last of that line of thought from me. Get ready for a higher learning !

Zajuts149
06-05-2007, 00:02
I've enjoyed this thread, and I've got to admit i got a penchant for Cavalry:charge:

My favourite horse unit is Jinetes, the General slayers:D

Furious Mental
06-05-2007, 04:46
"This also not the first painting I have seen of Timurid cavalry with lances and bows. "

I've seen another too, wherein they are fighting an elephant.

Miracle
06-05-2007, 05:30
It looks like it is entirely feasible to sling a lance over your back:

http://www.collectinghistory.net/lancers.jpg

Interestingly Reiters in M2TW use pistols as their primary weapons and spears as their secondary weapons.

What does that mean?

There's no reason why Mongols/Timurids can't have cavalry with bows and lances. In fact it might be fairly easy to mod that ability in.

Orda Khan
06-05-2007, 10:13
There is some famous bas relief of a sassanid cataphract somewhere, not sure where exactly in Iran, but anyway the bloke has a lance and a quiver (which would imply a bow). Seems somewhat awkward to me.
The rock carvings in Firusabad depicting the defeat of the Parthians or the Sassanian monarch in Taq-i-bustan

......Orda

Orda Khan
06-06-2007, 10:00
Judging accuracy from paintings is not 100% reliable, remember the artist may be gifted in his field but there is nothing to say he ever witnessed a battle

........Orda

I have a scene in a similar style, depicting Chinggis Khan laying seige to a Chinese city where some of the Mongol troops have guns.

Sinan,
You asked if I have any information regarding maps/battles that depict eastern style cavalry tactics. I have phase drawings of Chakirma'ut, Kalka River and Sajo River (Mohi/Muhi). I have seen Liegnitz on the net somewhere but the smoke screen tactics employed at that battle were perhaps less typical and probably used as a means to achieve parity ( the Mongol force was depleted from former engagements) in order to allow the more usual tactic.
Chakirma'ut in 1204 is a fine example of how to deal with 'hill camping' and the organised Mongol deployment and tactics should serve to scotch the argument often heard, that Chinggis Khan was more a ruler than a commander

.....Orda

dopp
06-06-2007, 12:23
The closest to lance/bow armed cavalry in Total War would be the Clibinari Immortals of Sassinid Persia in Barbarian invasion, but they only had maces instead of lances.

frogbeastegg
06-06-2007, 16:47
I need some advice on how to do something I've never done before. I'll set the scene a bit first so the scenario makes more sense.

In my Byzantine game I have 1/2 a stack of assorted horse archers. This stack needs to destroy a massive Egyptian Jihad and a Turkish army in close succession and with minimal losses. Too many losses or a real defeat and I will lose Constantinople and probably another of my big income cities. If I take more than a few turns to do this I will probably lose at least one city.

My thought is that while I cannot destroy the Jihad in one battle I can do loads of damage to it and then destroy it in a second. If my army is still in good condition I will then be able to tackle the Turkish army.

My problem is this: I have never lost a battle in M2TW. I have never withdrawn from one either. Didn't really happen to me in RTW either. I have no idea whatsoever what will happen if I engage the Jihad, unload all my arrows, pick off any vulnerable units I can, and then order a withdrawal. Er, I don't know how best to order a withdrawal either, except to take a few units off at a time and always keep a rearguard action going. My experience with withdrawing units in MTW and STW was that the withdrawing unit would run straight at the enemy and try to die - I can't afford that.

So, um, yes. Help? I'd experiment and see what happens but I'm not on holiday any more and so don't have much time to play.


This game has been great! Very challenging. Complete opposite of that Egyptian game: I'm under attack near constantly, not enough money, not enough troops, only limited expansion, fighting on more than one front, and a good number of very fine battles. I've routinely been killing 2,000 man armies with 7 unit (1 general, 6 assorted HAs) stacks of my own - I've had to, whether I wanted to or not.

Doug-Thompson
06-06-2007, 18:41
My experience with withdrawing units in MTW and STW was that the withdrawing unit would run straight at the enemy and try to die - I can't afford that.

You must have some movement points left. If you attack, the Jihad retreats, and you attack again, the game will not let you withdraw until your army has taken some losses. (or, possibly, run out of ammo. I'm not sure at all about that one.)

The qualified answer comes because the last time I did exactly what you're talking about this was in RTW.

In MTW2 I withdrew several times after a fight with Mongols, but took serious losses each time while inflicting similar losses. Did it recently with the Hungarians, but took losses there too — a rather small fraction of his, but still significant.

In the Hungarian battle, I simply took note of the map edge that was directly behind my troops, moved as close as I could once I'd made the decision it was time to leave, then selected all and hit the withdrawl flag. Everybody moved off without a problem.

Shahed
06-06-2007, 19:28
That's true we do have REITERS ! with missile and lance.

Orda, thanks for the info.
Frogs, I don't actually remember if you lose any troops if you withdraw. Has been ages since I did that, IIRC you don't. But this contradicts what I understood of Doug's experience. There are pathfinding issues if you order a withdrawal when there are enemy units in front of yours. I think you will be fine if you engage the Jihad, run to the side of the map you came from and then withdraw. Like I said I don't remember correctly but you should'nt lose any extra troops if you do. By withdraw I mean, click the white flag on the battle map, not withdraw on the campaign map. Good to hear you're doing so well.

Doug-Thompson
06-06-2007, 19:56
Rebellious Waffle, a first time poster, says he did what you want to do more than a half-dozen times in a guerilla campaign against two stacks on Crete. It's one of the latest posts on the "Hunters All Their Lives" thread. Check it out.

=======

Also, I'll be waging a guerilla campaign of my own today or tomorrow. The Mongols and the Egyptians have declared Jihad for Constantinople. I would be surprised if the Moors and Turks didn't join in. As the Hungarians, I'm already fighting the Danes, the HRE, the Milanese, French, Venetians, Russians and the Byzantines.

I don't want to give up Nicea without a fight, so we'll both know definitive answers to your question very soon.

Shahed
06-06-2007, 20:21
I popped into my Byz campaign. Did an attack vs a full stack of Hungarians with 2 BGs, 4 V-tanks.
Killed +-350 of them, lost 19. Withdrew, no extra losses on withdrawal.

Doug-Thompson
06-06-2007, 22:26
(Posted in wrong thread. Sorry.)

Betito
06-06-2007, 23:30
In my current turkish campaign, i have successfully widthdrawn my horse archers to bring new blood quite a few times. This was when i was fighting the mongols at the brige north of mosul (That bridge is holy! it makes wonders).

Anyway, the point is that widthdrawal is fairly safe to use in m2tw, just watch the movement points, as Doug advices.

Now, if you mean the widthdrawal IN the battle map, i am not sure about it's behavior in a non-standard situation (by standard i mean armies stay on the same side of the map as when the battle started). If you want a guerrilla tactic though, there should not be too much trouble.

-------------

@Sinan: Sooo, what do i need to do to be considered in the cavalry commander list?? I have been a huge fan of the eastern style: Turks + Eggys in MTW1, Scythia/Sarmatia in RTW/BI, and now the mighty Turks again in MTW2, let me know please

Shahed
06-07-2007, 00:06
In the battle map, all you need to do is make sure there are no enemy units in your path. To be safe you should go away from the enemy and towards the edge of the map to which your had it's back when the battle started.

Betito, you have to do nothing amigo. I remember you very well.
It's good to see you and Welcome Aboard ! You are the 30th member.

Betito
06-08-2007, 03:46
Wooot, thanks Sinan, Consider that 'siggied'.:charge::charge::charge:

Shahed
06-08-2007, 04:05
HEY ! That is a good idea ! I'm gonna do the same !

Ok... EVERYONE ! I've posted a Mongols vs Turks custom battle "challenge" !
Have a look here, hope it's good and you enjoy it:

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?p=1570463#post1570463

pete101
06-08-2007, 04:29
the quality of an all cavalry army lies in the inferiority of your enemies ai,
i like to have a mix because i like to pretend that the ai is smarter than what it really is

e.g. when an enemy army lines up, and you come from the side and take one or two units at a time, because they are too easy to turn the army around

i wish their was a way to change the difficulty mid campaign, but even then ai seems to sux

except in villages

Doug-Thompson
06-14-2007, 22:23
Re: Fight, run away, fight again.

Some observations:

It's really annoying to be able to run all over the place with your slower enemy unable to catch you, but not be able to withdraw off the battle map.

As I remembered from earlier versions of TW, you cannot withdraw unless you have some movement points left. As a practical matter, this makes the "fight-withdraw-fight again" technique a little tricky.

If you can put your army somewhere that the enemy has to attack it, you're all right. Just let them hit, then attack them on your next turn. It's also OK if you attack them first, withdraw and then attack again on your next turn.

One dangerous variation is to have a fort or city nearby. That way, you withdraw there and not some far distance away. The danger, of course, is that you'll be besieged.

Agentdoom
06-15-2007, 00:59
Gothic Knights and Reiters! Best combo in the game.

s_tabikha
08-29-2007, 19:18
Get me in that list!!!!!!!!!!!!

Czar Alexsandr
08-30-2007, 02:12
Get me in that list!!!!!!!!!!!!

Your fellow Cavalry commanders welcome you!

What's your favorite faction, cavalry tactics, etc?

s_tabikha
08-30-2007, 04:17
The Turks!!

Im playing them right now and I just beat the mongols at a bridge hahaha.

Well I use Hunters all there lives for my victorys haha


CANT WAIT TILL BROKEN CRESCENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

RemusAvenged
08-30-2007, 22:39
My favorite was the all Najinata Cavalry Army back in Shogun: Mongol Invasion.

http://www.totalwar.org/hosted/TotalwarShogun/mongol/nagcav.jpg

These days I really like the Dane's Norse War Clerics and am getting close to fielding my first all Cav stack in M2TW.

The Cav units I love the best are always 'Cavalry Killing' Cavalry Units, so, uh, maybe this isn't my group?

Czar Alexsandr
08-31-2007, 02:45
The Turks are a very good faction. Good job on beating thosse Mongols! The Mongols can be pretty tough.

Remus, I always liked the Naginata cavalry to. It's just such a good versitile unit! Lol. I love cavalry in general though. But if you use mostly cavlry armies and are close to fielding a all cav stack... you're one of us as far as I'm concerned! Lol. Find any cav units in MDTW2 to be good cavalry killers? (Polish Nobles lol. Evil things...)

Valdincan
08-31-2007, 04:50
Answering the call.

You can never beat a good Gothic Knight charge, well unless you have pikemen.

Cras
08-31-2007, 11:06
I love all cavalry armies! I usually have 2 or 3 roaming the field and destroy anything that comes that way.

my usuall tactic is to send 4 units on either side to go past the enemy, then to do a frontal attack with 12 units while the other 8 attack the rear.


the 12 who attack from the front attack in pairs so any unit is hit twice by the lances, it doesnt take long before the first line starts to run.

I also target easy units forst to get the army on the run... if that succeeds the rest will soon follow

and you guys must admit, 1201 horsemen in a charge is a nice view :)

Mete Han
08-31-2007, 11:27
If you wish to be part of this association, please state this clearly in your post !

Playing without missile cavalry always made me feel like constrained strategic wise. I prefer missile cavalry over any other unit.

I must be included in that list.

Subedei
08-31-2007, 12:01
I love the Dahae Riders in my Bactrian campaign at the moment. Kill slow but effective. Plus they are pretty cheap. Just make them stay away from them slingers....well, I usually let my Generals body guard take care of those lil´stonethrowing buggers.....

One thing I love in every TW game is sending a med sized army of all cav [most HA] into the lands I am about to attack and make the enemy attack me, fire all my arrows....retreat...come back...

Jason X
08-31-2007, 12:15
my fave faction in rome was parthia - loved those persian cavalry!

also - when lurking here, i watched the development of the missile cav guide with interest, still itching to try some of those techniques (though i don't get much chance to play m2tw at all really)

i enjoyed playing the turks a lot, currently on an egypt campaign and would go for byz, hungary, poland or rus next. that's got to peg me as a cav guy, hasn't it?

Lord Ovaat
08-31-2007, 17:36
Well, Sinan, I've always tried to use cav as they were originally used. Depending on the unit and situation, they are best at smash, harass, annoy, butcher. I seldom use all cav armies, but I do fight fire with fire. You just can't beat the Mongols with spears, and most light cav can't handle them. So, I try to get at least six or so heavies to deal with their heavy archers (they can't catch them, but they'll eventually pin and butcher them), but I still like a line of spears guarding some good, long range archers. That works wonders on their lancers. But regardless who I'm fighting, I use a couple for flanking and chasing.

I actually have several cavalrymen in my ancestry, lol, so I've always been kinda partial to it. However, having now played a bit of a campaign in Kingdoms, I suspect CA has totally gutted cav. I guess that makes it fairer for the MP's?? I just had some heavy knights and a bodyguard unit thrashed by catapult and scorpions with KNIVES!!!:furious3: Bull! Anyone who has ever been on a horse knows full well that some knave with a dagger just ain't no match for a rider with a reallllllly long knife, even if the rider doesn't have mail or better. My body guard unit, (41) hit a catapult company (40) square on with lances down, and only disabled 6 of them! Then, the guard lost 11 men finishing them off. :furious3:

I hadn't planned on unpacking the four new campaigns, but I reckon I'll have to. Lordy, this is going to be a lot of work, unless someone else is in the process of correcting this glaring error, hint. :saint: If the intent is to limit the overall affect of cavalry, why not be more historically correct? Make them cost a whole lot more to raise and maintain than foot, but make them as powerful as they were. Cav has always been far more expensive and far harder to train than any infantry, and that's a given. Why not reflect that fact?

mambaman
09-02-2007, 00:52
I love Cav, was 6 years an Officer (Senior Captain) in the Royal Tank Regiment (Uk Land Army) so it's in the blood :whip:

My tactics: fix with Infantry and then strike with Cav: composition of my all conquering armies tends to be 40% Heavy Inf, 50% Heavy Cav and 10% missiles

has worked for me over STW, MTW, RTW and now M2TW-I wonder whether it will for Empires but thats for another discussion

phonicsmonkey
09-03-2007, 05:41
ok get me on that list

I LOVE CAMEL GUNNERS!!!

and all other missile cav

also, I went back to playing RTW:BI recently and just butchered a whole stack of Limitanei with just one Warlord Heavy Cavalry unit

LMAO!!!

s_tabikha
09-03-2007, 16:31
Am i on it yet?

Czar Alexsandr
09-05-2007, 02:51
Am i on it yet?

Maybe you should note Sinan. It may take him some time. But maybe he doesn't know? In any case Sinan is the guy who needs to know.

Tiberius maximus
09-05-2007, 03:55
love cav, hit em hard fast and decisively:2thumbsup: :2thumbsup: :2thumbsup:

Shahed
09-05-2007, 17:21
WELCOME TO EVERYONE !!!

I'm travelling since a couple of weeks and for a few weeks more, so I was'nt visiting the org. Just popped in and saw we got a formation going !!! Will update the list asap (and answer my PMs). My apologies!

SALUTE !

Shahed
09-05-2007, 17:26
Quick Question: Does anyone have any good ideas (screenshots, photos, quotes etc) for a standard 10 kb image signature which denotes membership in this association ? Any other ideas welcome as well.

_Tristan_
09-06-2007, 09:11
Why not associate on a single image the unit cards drawings of each types of cavalry (knights/light cav/missile cav...)

with an appropriate quote...

Orda Khan
09-06-2007, 21:45
My ponies rarely see action these days, they grow lazy and fat. The new direction taken by the TW game probably means they will retire for good ........

.....Orda

The Outsider
09-06-2007, 23:56
Hi sinan, i am interested in heavy cavalary armies especially with the turks sipahi lancers and quapikulus, after all there is nothing as sweet and brave (and stupid) as a frontal charge into a mass of heavy infantry! So count me in as well please.

Buckers
09-08-2007, 07:19
Once a Hussar always a Hussar

Tiberius maximus
09-09-2007, 03:54
does any body else besides me use light cav like missiles and merchant cav as police forces for rebels in your provinces?

just wandering, ive found all kinds of uses for cavalry, :idea2:

Czar Alexsandr
09-10-2007, 03:20
does any body else besides me use light cav like missiles and merchant cav as police forces for rebels in your provinces?

just wandering, ive found all kinds of uses for cavalry, :idea2:


Well I use cheap or lower quality missle troops. Like the men in blue, the Kahzaks. Lol. My Kahzaks are great for dealing with bandits. And it amusses me that they're blue like most police forces. :laugh4:

Mangudai
09-11-2007, 00:26
I'm an all cav commander!

Hungary is my strongest faction, but Russia is my favorite to play. I love Kazaks!!! They are the weakest and cheapest HA's in the game. That's why I love them! Its a real challenge to take on other HA factions with them which makes the game more fun.

MICROMANAGEMENT MADE SIMPLE - Click and drag + (the run key). This is a quick way to order each of your groups into position. Skirmish will eliminate any mistakes.

IDEAL STACK -
1 general
2 HC
9 HA

Lord Ovaat
09-11-2007, 13:58
My ponies rarely see action these days, they grow lazy and fat. The new direction taken by the TW game probably means they will retire for good ........


Orda, like you, I was about ready to give up on cav. That is, until I played as the Spaniards in the Americas campaign and ran into their Dragoons. They seem to be armed with Spencer Carbines and Colt revolvers for close work. :laugh4: My two units, acquired as a gift, have accounted for 150 to 250 kills per unit per battle. And they've only taken three casualties between them. They can also fire while moving with uncanny accuracy. They are so good, and so unrealistic, I think they now move to the top of my "Good Gawd" list of "You Gotta Be Kidding" units.

I haven't seen any difference in the stats to indicate a different rate of fire, intensity, or range from regular musketeers, who are averaging 20 to 40 kills in the same battles. Only difference I've noticed is the infantry fire by rank, and the Dragoons don't have that restriction. That is certainly easy enough to change by adding the restriction to their stats, but I'm having sooooo much fun butchering heathens, Brits, and Frenchies, I think I'll put it off for awhile, :yes: Probably until I decide to play as a native faction. :beam:

s_tabikha
09-25-2007, 05:42
Im on IT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Shahed
09-25-2007, 10:53
Yep you are and so is everyone else, sorry forgot to post that I updated the list. If I forgot someone please let me know.

Thanks for the ideas on sigs, I'll do one or two as soon as I have some time.

CHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGE !

Mete Han
09-25-2007, 12:19
So where is the updated list?

Shahed
09-25-2007, 14:54
In the first post.

russveld
09-28-2007, 03:41
Infantry owns cav!!!! dragon=inf. wizard = cav:wizard:

Czar Alexsandr
09-28-2007, 05:05
Infantry owns cav!!!! dragon=inf. wizard = cav:wizard:

Of course you are entitled to your own opinion... however.. I find it disrespectful to post this in a recruitment thread for cavalry fanatics like myself. If you posted a thread about how infantry is better that would have been okay. Maybe you could start a thread called "Calling All Infantry Commanders!"

.....

Inf :whip: Cav

.... there... and that's the end!

Shahed
09-28-2007, 09:06
LOL.

Gray Beard's been added. Sorry I missed that earlier ! ;) Actually wait here's the list of most recent members:

s_tabikha
Valdincan
Cras
Mete Han
Subedei
Jason X
mambaman
phonicsmonkey
Tiberius maximus
The Turk
Mangudai
Lord Ovaat
Gray Beard

The COMPLETE list of 40+ members is in the first post on the first page.

Alex are you intending to buy Kingdoms ?

Mete Han
09-28-2007, 11:02
Infantry owns cav!!!! dragon=inf. wizard = cav:wizard:

probably you meant vice versa...

Czar Alexsandr
09-29-2007, 01:52
Sinan!

Yes I am planning on getting Kingdoms! I haven't got the money to spare right now but I'm looking forward to getting it. Is it pretty good? I've read up on it and all and it looks really good. The campaigns all look really interesting. I think I might try the Britania campaign as my ancestors the Welsh and see if I can take over the UK. :laugh4:

Shahed
09-29-2007, 08:52
Yeah it should be fun but I have'nt found it in the city I'm in right now, I'm hoping to get it eventually.