Another HRE-Rush [Archive]

SirRethcir

05-11-2007, 09:27

Weeks ago I read, that a guy finished the HRE campaign in 21 turns, or so.
Ah, well, I accepted that challenge. :laugh4:
But I have waited for the offical patch 1.02.

So, played with a clean M2TW installation with patch 1.02, VH/VH:

https://img526.imageshack.us/img526/8853/20turnvictoryjw8.jpg
https://img525.imageshack.us/img525/8029/20turnvictorycongj0.jpg

And an animated GIF. Every single frame shows the situation by the end of that turn.
https://img95.imageshack.us/img95/928/20turnrushanimxi4.gif

Destroyed Faction: Denmark, France, Milan, Poland, England (sorry)

:clown:

econ21

05-11-2007, 09:50

Interesting. Do you have any insight into why HRE rushes are so easy? (Or is it easy to rush with any faction?)

In our HRE PBM in the Throne Room, I've been surprised at how well we are doing. I expected it to be much harder from playing HRE in MTW (and from the fact that you are surrounded by powers that will readily attack you).

Comparing it to my solo English games, the economy seems to be much stronger.

But I may not be understanding things well, as my inclination as a lazy SPer is always to turtle rather than rush.

SirRethcir

05-11-2007, 09:58

Interesting. Do you have any insight into why HRE rushes are so easy? (Or is it easy to rush with any faction?)
I think it is easy with every faction. The advantage is that you can expand in every direction. In average you must conquer 2 provinces every turn, so a central position is a great advantage.

But I may not be understanding things well, as my inclination as a lazy SPer is always to turtle rather than rush.
Usually I play the good guy, too. :beam:

Fußball

05-11-2007, 10:32

Usually I play the good guy, too. :beam:

Agreed, I find it more fun to play a prolonged game even on short victory conditions, rather than a short game. My :2cents:.

Tschüß!
Erich

Shahed

05-11-2007, 10:47

Excellent. Just for the challenge that was worth it. So tell us more, how did you assualt each settlement ? Mercs ?
I love that animated .gif, saved it straight away.

Econ21 I booted up an HRE game recently, 100K in the bank by turn 10 or so. The economy is great.

Warluster

05-11-2007, 10:48

Rushing makes the game boring, why rush in and finish it, when you can take it slow, reach America and get guns?

Shahed

05-11-2007, 10:50

He said it in the first post, it was for a challenge, to beat the guy who finished in 21 turns.

Warluster

05-11-2007, 11:13

I guess so...

(I need glasses!)

ANyway, it takes me AGES to finish a game, I just can't rush.

Sounds boring though.

ANd also Sir Rethcir, who was the other guy who finished it in 18 turns. ANd looking at those pics you did it in 20 turns.

Monsieur Alphonse

05-11-2007, 11:43

Sorry to spoil the fun but the guy (Makkenzie) at the com did it later in 19 turns. He is already planning to do it in 18 maybe 17 turns.

Sentinel

05-11-2007, 11:50

Excellent work!

What difficulty did you play this at?

Please don't tell me you played on VH/VH you’ll give me an inferiority complex.

I also found HRE easy to expand in the early game, but did not achieve the lightening rate that you did.

In addition to its central location, it is close to Rome, I found that the popes diplomat turns up at about turn 2 / 3 giving you the opportunity to improve your reputation to “Perfect”, then request a crusade. You can then recruit cheap Mercenaries, with no upkeep costs, to take over the rebel / non-catholic settlement, whilst using none crusading armies to conquer the other catholic faction.

It can be fun to set silly targets, just for the hell of it. I once played an English campaign for about 60 turns just to prove you could get peasants up to gold experience.

Perhaps we should start a “Your most unusual victory conditions” thread.

Shahed

05-11-2007, 12:00

LOL ! He said that in his post too. "clean M2TW installation with patch 1.02, VH/VH" ... ok.. ok I'll stop being annyoing now.

How did you assault ?

You must have had to wait one turn to assault in most cases.

SirRethcir

05-11-2007, 12:29

Sorry to spoil the fun but the guy (Makkenzie) at the com did it later in 19 turns. He is already planning to do it in 18 maybe 17 turns.
Haha. Greetings to him!

Well to be frankly, that was my first time I saw the victory movie. :laugh4:
And yes I also thought there is enough 'room' for 19 or 18 turns, but that I guess would be more work than fun. I just thought, well, it's a good reason to play through a campaign and see the end movie.
I finished an English short campaign and played a grand HRR campaign. But never came past turn 50. Since then I played just for research. -> trading mechanism and so on

@Sinan
So, I'm quite used to play with low tier units and outnumbered. I guess that's useful. :laugh4:
Go strait to cities/castles and avoid those big armies. And yes the most cities/castles were take after 1 turn. On 2 occasions with spies opening the doors and in the last turns I had some ballistas.
And, all power to the Mercs!

I love that animated .gif, saved it straight away.
Yeah, me too. I could watch it all day long. :dizzy2:

Askthepizzaguy

07-10-2007, 09:36

I accept your challenge. Results will be posted soon.

Yun Dog

07-10-2007, 10:14

LOVE your animated GIF dude - nice work - shows the province progression perfectly

but look at the units your playing with - militias - as you say for the challenge of beating the game quickly

but if someone said to me play 70 custom battles with militias end to end - Id rather have a root canal

the only reason I play at all is to get the top uber units and watch them hack through militias

gw on beating the game in 20 - says more about VH/VH than the millions of posts saying the game is too easy

Lupiscanis

07-10-2007, 12:38

I accept your challenge. Results will be posted soon.

The OP is playing 1.2, you are playing 1.0.

icek

07-10-2007, 13:08

versions will not make any difference unless someone palying on 1.1

Askthepizzaguy

07-10-2007, 14:44

versions will not make any difference unless someone palying on 1.1

I am using 1.0. What would the difference be between 1.1 and 1.0?

icek

07-10-2007, 16:12

well, for example english faction need dismounted feudal knights to defeat peasants in one-on-one fight. cavalry is almost unstopable, 2handed units are totally uselless againts them, dismounted knights take severy losses agains they charge and arent better in melee also. ai is agressive, portugal can take all they armies and make a sailing for ireland before 10 turn, france imidiatelly sacks bordeaux and etc.

gardibolt

07-10-2007, 18:27

The shield bug makes units with shields much easier to beat than they should be. For instance, fighting the western units with DFKs is much tougher in 1.2 than in 1.0. But with these rushes the AI probably can't build DFKs anyway.

Ulstan

07-10-2007, 18:33

CA your game is too easy :D

It needs to be a harder and lengthier process to assimilate new lands into your empire. less fruitful to sack cities, and it looks as though the mercenary pool at the beginning of the game needs to be reduced as well.

andrewt

07-10-2007, 20:23

Rushing makes the game boring, why rush in and finish it, when you can take it slow, reach America and get guns?

I only rush a little because I want to play with the uber units. However, I reached America once with the Moors and likely won't do it again. It was just boring pressing end turn repeatedly doing nothing but playing brigand whack-a-mole.

Bob the Insane

07-10-2007, 20:42

A question for the OP or anyone that has done this. Would you classify it as easy, or at least no harder than normal game play, or would you say this was actually a bit of a challenge?

From a modding perspective, what feature, if made unavailable, would have hampered your progress the most? (if anything)...

SirRethcir

07-10-2007, 22:43

A question for the OP or anyone that has done this. Would you classify it as easy, or at least no harder than normal game play, or would you say this was actually a bit of a challenge?Well, to meet the deadline of 20 turns is not a piece of cake. But with an 'normal' agressive playstyle you could surely win the campaign in 50 turns.

From a modding perspective, what feature, if made unavailable, would have hampered your progress the most? (if anything)...
Read Ulstan's post!
Mercenaries and city sacking are the key elements.

John_Longarrow

07-10-2007, 23:53

Bob,

The things that will slow down a blitzer would be
1) Stronger garrisons in Rebel territory
2) Lower the amount sacking gives
3) Reduced Merc availablitity
4) Increase unrest due to distance from capitol. This would require a larger garrison and more "Happy" buildings to be made before you can afford to move troops out.
5) Make Rebel territories either Pagan or Heritic. Same as 4, but you are limited based on how quickly you can move through religious agents.

4 and 5 slow down a blitz because you run into unrest problems. They won't impact a "Kill everyone else" blitzer, but they will slow down a take and hold blitzer.

icek

07-11-2007, 10:18

and most of all teaching cpu to defend theyr cities. now ai do it with standard rtw vanilla routine. they land they armies near city hoping for 2:1 armies battle but good general can do a night battle and first take the almost undefended city and then defeat single army.

Askthepizzaguy

02-06-2008, 06:31

Fastest Long Campaign of All Time?

https://i255.photobucket.com/albums/hh137/askthepizzaguy2/0477.jpg

HRE 45 provinces and Rome.
Version 1.02

Result:

Generals: 18
Battles Won: 60
Battles Lost: 3
Cities: 23
Castles: 23
Provinces held: 46
Year: 1100

Turn: 11

I realized this was possible during my Blitz All Challenge campaign... once I got to 45 provinces by turn 14... I decided to load my save file from turn 8 and go for the gold medal for the HRE Long Campaign as well.

There were some tough battles. Outmaneuvering the Pope, getting excommunicated, finishing a crusade on turn 9, slaughtering nearly all of France on the final turn... it was epic.

AAR will follow.... stay tuned.

ReiseReise

02-06-2008, 12:06

Thats amazing atpg. Will you reclaim some part of your former title now or do you have to win Blitz All?

Askthepizzaguy

02-06-2008, 15:52

Thats amazing atpg. Will you reclaim some part of your former title now or do you have to win Blitz All?

I did win the Blitz All....

Check it out. That ones even more impressive.

28 turn victory, 106 provinces.

Listen, I am pretty proud of my achievement, but in light of the recent Patriots Bowl loss, I know just how awful it is to hear people gloat.

(Actually most of the people on this forum were true gentlemen... just a couple of jerks at work... would NOT shut UP about it, even after I've been magnanimous all season towards vanquished foes, saying how well they played and how good their teams were, especially those who almost beat us, and most definitely towards the Giants on game 16... alas maturity is not universal.)

So rather than drop confetti on myself and crank up "We are the Champions"... I am simply going to humbly say, great effort to all who participated in the challenges, and I sincerely hope someone will attempt to dethrone me again. THIS time, it will not be an easy matter. Hold on to your butts, because 106 provinces in 28 turns is roughly 3.9 provinces per turn, and 46 provinces in 11 turns is 4.18 provinces per turn, and much of that was under excommunication.

You guys are going to enjoy the AAR... but it's roughly 600 images now.

Gonna be a while before I can build it.

Oh, what the hell.... enjoy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sogKUx_q7ig

SirRethcir

02-07-2008, 11:22

Fastest Long Campaign of All Time?
HRE 45 provinces and Rome.
Version 1.02

Result:

Generals: 18
Battles Won: 60
Battles Lost: 3
Cities: 23
Castles: 23
Provinces held: 46
Year: 1100

Turn: 11

:dizzy2:

Well, well...
... Have to talk to Schlieffen ... Need a plan ...

:2thumbsup:

Askthepizzaguy

02-09-2008, 06:47

:dizzy2:

Well, well...
... Have to talk to Schlieffen ... Need a plan ...

:2thumbsup:

Would anyone like the save files posted so that you can examine my progress on each turn?

https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=99026
My HRE thread (under construction... LOTS of images warning!)

Csargo

02-09-2008, 09:35

Ignoramus

02-09-2008, 11:26

That's amazing. You deserve an Org Award for that. I'd give it a crack at beating it, but I MTWII won't run on my computer at the moment.

Askthepizzaguy

02-09-2008, 14:11

I tried this last night and I did pretty decent for a guy who knows nothing about blitzing. I had around 10 provinces with 2-3 cities about to be assaulted at turn 4 but was excom. by the pope and decided I probably wouldn't fair well after that.

HINT:

If you need to do something that could get you excommunicated, here is how you avoid it.

1. Don't get warned. If you accomplish what you want in a single turn, you can't even get warned.

2. If you need two turns, MAKE SURE RELATIONS WITH THE POPE ARE PERFECT FIRST, so your warning is just a warning, not a threat.

3. Ballista/catapults can take cities in a single turn... this means you can wipe out empires (FRANCE) in the blink of an eye. No warnings.

4. If you have completed a crusade or have been wiping out factions, your glory and fear bonuses OFFSET excommunication public order penalties.

It's as if you never got excommunicated, and you can act with impunity.

Askthepizzaguy

02-09-2008, 14:12

That's amazing. You deserve an Org Award for that. I'd give it a crack at beating it, but I MTWII won't run on my computer at the moment.

Perhaps. However, we are currently doing hall of fame for 2007, and by the time hall of fame for 2008 rolls around, will anyone even remember this thread?

SirRethcir

02-09-2008, 18:53

I tried this last night and I did pretty decent for a guy who knows nothing about blitzing. I had around 10 provinces with 2-3 cities about to be assaulted at turn 4 but was excom. by the pope and decided I probably wouldn't fair well after that.
I had 20 or so. ;)

Ok, askthepizzaguy, take this:

https://img184.imageshack.us/img184/8502/victory9ob2.jpg

https://img517.imageshack.us/img517/1461/overview9xe0.jpg

Wuhuuu!!!
:birthday2: :couch: :jumping:

I was heading for a 10 turn victory, so the last turn was a bit tricky. ;)

~:pimp:

https://img137.imageshack.us/img137/7259/anivictory9vi4.gif

Conclusion:
So, one can make it in 8 turns.
In my 8th turn I had 42 Provinces. With two intelligent fought battles I could have captured two more cities, but I had totally forgotten to prepare the assault on Rome (e.g. to build a siege weapon), so I had to wait another turn.
(Sh.. happens! )

Csargo

02-09-2008, 20:48

SirRethcir

02-09-2008, 23:11

Well my problem was I didn't have enough troops to continue to go on. I used a lot of mercenaries but that seemed to put a damper on my treasury. I could get a little cash from diplomacy and sacking but not really enough to continue my war machine.
The money is not the problem, the shortage of troops is.
.. But 'crusades' is the magic word. ;)

PS: Added a picture and an animated GIF.

Askthepizzaguy

02-10-2008, 03:28

Certainly impressive.

I will endeavor to meet or beat that record. Busy now with my massive new Blitz thread for the blitz all challenge.

Congratulations, SirRethcir, I have since removed the title from my Sig. It is yours now.

SirRethcir

02-10-2008, 11:33

Askthepizzaguy

02-10-2008, 11:50

Hail, mein Kasier.

I probably would have done better if it weren't for my options before turn 8... I simply loaded from my Blitz All Campaign and went from turn 8.

Those first 8 turns were spent trying to move into position for a 106 province victory, not merely a 45 province victory.

With adjustments to the strategy, I feel confident we will at least be sharing that title.

But as I said, you deserve the award. It's not a simple matter to beat these new records. The old ones stood for a while.

Askthepizzaguy

02-11-2008, 10:42

I managed to get near 45 provinces on turn 8, but I wasn't even close to taking Rome at the time.

My strategy was flawed thusly: I used every available general as a crusader unit. Apparently it will be more useful to divide the crusaders in half... some go on the crusade, some don't. Some will join later, and some will leave the crusade to take France.

I also did not use ballista properly. I will remedy that.

In my opinion, you can't really do it in 8 turns. But I will try. There is just so little time to assemble the troops.

I should have left the crusade when I took Breslau, so I could wipe out Poland. That would have put me over the top.

I should have assaulted France straight away after I took the Belgian provinces.

I wasted turns trying to crusade into moorish territory for 4 freebie provinces.

I got three out of the four, though, with one crusade stack, plus a rebel province. You seem to have managed only two in the Iberian peninsula. I think I can beat that.

I also had a grand oppurtunity to take Hungary, which would have also improved upon what you accomplished. A simple strike with militia troops and a ballista unit will take the Hungarian capital.

I also note that you seem to have gifted Zagreb to the Pope? You can avoid that and still get a crusade going.

Sell maps, alliances, and offers to attack until you have about 4000 florins. That way you can overcome your sacking reputation hit and still get a crusade. Alternatively, do not sack for the first two turns, and all a crusade on turn 3. Aim for the Pope's diplomat north of Rome with a peasant, or take Florence turn 2, to start negotiations.

If I plan well, it will be easy to meet your record on the next attempt. However, getting 8 turn victory may not happen. We shall see...

Good show.

If I do indeed manage the Long Campaign victory in 8 turns, I still don't think that strategy will be useful at all for taking all 106 provinces. The first crusade needs to get you to the 4 corners of the map, and you can't do that and meet Long Campaign conditions by turn 8. Rome alone costs you several crusade turns.

Therefore, I remain confident that my Blitz All Challenge record will remain untouched for a while, and we will be sharing the Kaiser of Blitz crown as well.

Hail, future co-regent of the Long Campaign!

SirRethcir

02-11-2008, 22:10

Askthepizzaguy

02-12-2008, 01:54

1. I didn't have a single ballista, that was the problem. ;)
Also, I didn't use my spies to open city gates.

2. Concerning crusades:
Are you aware that you can attack catholic factions with a crusading army?
Thats a little flaw I discovered because of pure despair. :shame:

3. Well a that time a had no cross. So it was absolutely necessary.
I never said it was a perfect rush. :laugh4:

4. Well I will not try this record. So, no danger from my side. :2thumbsup:

1. I had a whole one spy from the beginning. First, wasting time building brothels. Second, the tier one spies they churn out by mid campaign are useless. I did manage to use ballistas to take Rome, Venice, and so forth.

2. You can attack excommunicated catholics, and defend yourseld against ambushes which get them excommunicated, and you can also reinforce a stack that is being attacked with crusaders. However, it is otherwise impossible to attack with crusading armies against Catholics.

3. Nearly perfect. 8 turns would be perfect.

4. I am certain someone will try. What is the point of holding a record no one ever challenges?

SirRethcir

02-12-2008, 11:19

[...] and you can also reinforce a stack that is being attacked with crusaders. However, it is otherwise impossible to attack with crusading armies against Catholics.
The first sentence leads to an other possibility.
You can march with a crusading army to a city held by a not excommunicated catholic faction and than leave the crusade. Your General can now attack the city. Yet, he can not build many siege equipment and if he can not recruit mercenary infantry, he can not initate the siege battle.
Now comes the flaw/bug in to play.
Place your whole cruasding army adjacent to a city, leave the crusade, select your general and attack/besiege the settlement. Now you have the full siege points of your army and you can initate the siege battle with your crusading troops. After you captured the city join the crusade again and go on.

Askthepizzaguy

02-12-2008, 14:52

The first sentence leads to an other possibility.
You can march with a crusading army to a city held by a not excommunicated catholic faction and than leave the crusade. Your General can now attack the city. Yet, he can not build many siege equipment and if he can not recruit mercenary infantry, he can not initate the siege battle.
Now comes the flaw/bug in to play.
Place your whole cruasding army adjacent to a city, leave the crusade, select your general and attack/besiege the settlement. Now you have the full siege points of your army and you can initate the siege battle with your crusading troops. After you captured the city join the crusade again and go on.

What version?

As far as I know, that's not doable in my version. Believe me, I've tried.

Any time crusading troops join a 'catholic-city-seige', that seige is lifted automatically by the game.

Example: attack city with non crusaders. Then have crusaders join the stack. The crusaders cancel the seige by default on version 1.2. In the interest of fairness, all my blitzes have been on VH/VH 1.2 version. Otherwise my magic wand of unlimited chivalry and total control over all diplomacy using the infamous 'gift offers to attack you've already gifted for the same effect leading to perfect relations with AT WAR factions and despicable reputation' trick would make the game exceedingly unfair. I wouldn't even have to spend florins to make the pope my...

...'ancillary'.

The way I could conceivably do what you're suggesting in my version:

Seige the city using only the non-crusading generals, with the crusader stack reinforcing in the city ZOC, adjacent to the generals in case of relief forces attacking your general, in which case they reinforce. I think they reinforce in case of a sally as well... maybe?

Enemy sallies, and you win the battle using only your generals.

Take the city, rejoin the crusade, move to next city.

How to win using only your generals:

Have like 3 or more of them and just keep making the idiots rout. Not particularly easy if the enemy has their king in the mix.

Use the old 'chase me, chase me.... oh you left your city undefended charge back to the city square and hold it for 3 minutes because you idiots dont have horses' scam.

If you have proof of what you're suggesting on version 1.2, I'd love to see a screenshot. Thanks for the tip, I will attempt it.

SirRethcir

02-12-2008, 17:58

What version?
M2TW 1.3 (of course)

Any time crusading troops join a 'catholic-city-seige', that seige is lifted automatically by the game.
That's correct!

But I never said that the general should leave the army:
"Place your whole crusading army adjacent to a city, leave the crusade, select your general and attack/besiege the settlement."
You have to select the general (or any other non-crusading unit) inside the army stack.

Askthepizzaguy

02-17-2008, 12:45

Still having trouble accomplishing that in my version, SirRethcir.

Kudos on your win, again, as I am having great difficulty meeting the 8 turn mark.

Will try again soon.

In the meantime, let it be known to ALL that my official HRE Blitz All Provinces Battle Report thread is now fully operational (more or less)
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=99026 The Ultimate Blitzkrieg (HRE)

You can now see images and captions for the ENTIRE campaign.

Please visit and comment.

Warning: 600+ images... slow connections need not apply until we have a page 2... where we can actually load the thing in less than a minute.