Mangudai !!!: Those Deficient Mongols ?

[Shahed]

I just ran a quick few decades as the Mongols. It was great fun and something struck me for the first time.

The Mongols don't have a Mangudai type unit, an elite of the elite. A hyper Bodyguard. In fact I think that is one thing that makes them weak. Their generals are just as easy to kill as any other. Once you kill their main generals they're done for. This could be attributed to AI deficiency. I think it would help if they had a more powerful elite.

Also, I've mentioned this before but the best HA in the game is Byzantine. That just does'nt seem right IMHO. IMO we could mod something about the Mongols to make them more challenging. Not sure what yet... new unit: Mangudai, or maybe raise Mongol HA (MHA) stats?.

SALUTE !

[Husar]

Hmm, well, I'm currently playing a campaign on Medium/Medium with Venice and personally I find the Mongols challenging enough, they already took five or so of my settlements(autocalculated some because previously I always crashed to desktop when their ram broke the gate in Antioch...), driving me back to Constantinople.:juggle2:
They're now losing some armies in my fortress in Smyrna, but they seem to rebuild armies quite quickly, while I haven't got access to a Citadel yet. My starting castle was just 30 people away from the upgrade when the black death came and reduced the population to around 7000.:wall:
I don't really understand yet, what is so easy about them, to be honest.:sweatdrop:

[Moah]

Also, I've mentioned this before but the best HA in the game is Byzantine. That just does'nt seem right IMHO. IMO we could mod something about the Mongols to make them more challenging. Not sure what yet... new unit: Mangudai, or maybe raise Mongol HA (MHA) stats?.

SALUTE !

I've heard this several times on here, that the Mongol HA aren't good enough units.

Now I freely accept that the Mongols were one of the greatest armies/hordes/threats ever known, and I disagree with the guy who's posted the (very good however) argument that they would have suddenly sucked if they'd hit western europe but...

Was their effectiveness not a combination of...

a) Tactics. Form my reading of the battles almost everybody walks straight into the "oh look they're running away - Chaaarge!" trap.

b) Training. They were very very disciplined and experienced, trained from early age etc etc. But isn't this reflected in the fact every unit has 6XP rather than you are inherently faster/more accurate/stronger because you're a steppe mongol rather than a <insert native tribe HA here>.

So, to me, it seems reasonable that they are effective through

a)army composition. Although the Timurids have elephants I find the mongols more challenging. The halberd militia are nothing but a distraction. The overwhelming simplicity of the mongols works.

b) Tactics. Simple as they are! Arrow rain. Feint. Arrow rain. Feint. Arrow rain. Feint. Charge. The AI sems to actually do this.

c) Training - they've all got 6xp/3 silver making them - more effective, better disciplines higher moral etc.


I'm just not sure why conveying their superiority through the quality of their troops, rather than just raw stats isn't right. I like it. I don't buy the fact that every mongol is born a a better rider and archer than the turks or egyptians (who evenetually stopped them with mamlukes didn't they?) or whatever...

[Didz]

I don't really understand yet, what is so easy about them, to be honest.:sweatdrop:
I wouldn't worry too much about it.

You read these sort of comments all the time on this forum and its usually down to a combination of setting, modding and playing style. You simply cannot assume that the person making the statement is playing the same game in the same way as you are.

I'm playing 1.2 (vanilla) on Normal and I find the Mongols challenging enough to retreat into my fortresses and whittle down their numbers through attrition. That means recruting large numbers of highly skilled missile troops to thin them out from the walls and a decent corps of heavy infantry to block the progress of their cavalry in the streets whould they breach the walls.

But, thats because I don't go in for armies which are heavy in cavalry. Those members who do will tell you that they meet the Mongols in open battle and defeat them easily with armies heavy in horse Archers. I've seen my son do amazing things with cavalry, but its all way too frantic and stressful for me, and my son hates seiges whereas I prefer them to open battles.

My advice is to stick with the style of play your comfortable with and learn to defeat them in your own way.

[Orda Khan]

Form my reading of the battles almost everybody walks straight into the "oh look they're running away - Chaaarge!" trap.
Perhaps you should read some more. One of the better known battles, Sajo river, was none of the above.
Above all, in the Mongol military system, command/rank was due to merit rather than fate of birth.
The argument about one HA over another is quite right but it should also be remembered that these other HA, once defeated and pressed into Mongol service became far more efficient than they had been; as individuals maybe not but as an army, definitely.
Sinan,
I agree with you, I mentioned this fact when Doug was compiling the HA Guide. The Mangudai were not a bodyguard unit though, they were a highly disciplined force that usually featured in the Mongol vanguard. Just why the east Romans get such a specialist HA unit is quite beyond me but I easily beat such units with Cuman mercs in my Mongol campaign and this is what most SP'ers are missing. The tactical AI is total pants (regardless of all the hype we were fed about its improvement) against a human player, where both have 10,000 florins to build an army, without one sided upgrades, just see how effective Mongols are. Any faction that has access to HA will beat them easily and because their units are so expensive, any faction without HA will still beat them.
Likewise, where are the disciplined infantry units among the Timurids? Did Timur rely so heavily on elephants? I think not!
Best way to beat Mongols? Ignore their HA and just target their infantry, forcing them into h2h.
How can CA get things so badly wrong? This is their third attempt with Mongols and nothing has changed

.......Orda

[Moah]

Fair enough, i didn't say all...

The Hungarians/poles/Teutonic knights all fell right into it though didn't they (although there was some burning hay and stuff too) ? Plus some of the Chinese battles and at least one on the Baghdad sacking adventure....it amazes me how many people did fall for it.

And surely the fact that these conquered HA all got better after joining Mongols is reflected in the increased discipine etc (i.e. Your conquered Akinjis now have 3 silver chevrons...) of Xp again.

I'm not saying the Mongols should be worse than any other HA, just that I quite like the way of reflecting their superiority through Xp - especially after mincing one of your armies there's lots of shiny gold.

I didn't find it that easy to target the inf either...My troops generally withered under the arrow storm then got hit by the heavy lancers and crumbled. My own support cav got creamed by archery and their heavy cav (who are pretty good..) too. Spear men that could hold off lancers were no match for their heavy inf

Not to say I didn't beat them (ottoman inf, jan archers for stakes, qap, some saracens) just that it wasn't cheap or easy.

I found the Timurids easier - just go all out for their elephants then mop up the rest (easier said than done the first couple of times though...)

[Furious Mental]

I find the Timurids an interesting lot. What are some sources on them?

[Doug-Thompson]

Above all, in the Mongol military system, command/rank was due to merit rather than fate of birth.

Exactly. When Genghis Kahn was a young man, captured and put into slavery, he learned that he was not the only person of great intelligence and merit forced to wear a yoke soley due to bad circumstances. He learned that there are people of merit in all walks of life and of all races, and never forgot the lesson.

Promotion by merit, discipline, mobility that derived from freedom from a conventional supply system more than horses, sound tactics and a general staff system whose details have been largely lost to history were all factors in Mongol success. Another was the most advanced intelligence — and counter intelligence — system of its day.

Want to simulate the Mongols in a M2TW campaign? Drop the infantry, flood enemy countryside and cities with high-level spies and triple the line of sight for Mongol units.

[Moah]

Promotion on merit? So...good commanders (maybe 8* generals) and experience chevrons on standard troops to reflect the superior NCOS.....

I keep coming back (in my own head) to generals and xp being a good way to reflect the Mongols power....

Although I wouldn't object to a couple of stacks of 14 heavy HA and 4 lancers with 2 GB say...

[Shahed]

I don't get it. :dizzy2:

Has anyone EVER seen the Mongol roster and stats and compared that to all the other factions ? The Mongols do NOT have the most powerful cavalry in the game. Who has it ? Do you think it's justified to have Templars have higher combat rating than Khan's Guard (Mangudai representative) ? Do you think Mongol Heavy Archers should have lower stats than Vardariotai ? Come on, that is just silly. Do you think the Mongol unit cost levels are justified in comparison to the other factions ? Vardariotai costs 800, MHA costs 900... LMFAO ! Those Mongols must be living real royal, mare's milk or Chateau Rothschild with your dinner Monsieur ? LOL .... hahahahhaahahahahaha, they cost more than Roman Empire cavalry. HAHAHHAHAH !!! I better stop before I crack myself up !!!! LOOOOL !

WOW ! I did'nt have such a good laugh for a few days...!!!

The fundamental cavalry balance between the Mongols and the rest of the world in M2:TW, is flawed.

First, best, most powerful cavalry in game.
THEN chevrons and generals, at appropriate levels.

*ahem* Let's not aim too high shall we.


LOL !!! Sorry... anyway that's my opinion.

Furious Mental check this wiki article (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timurid_dynasty). IMHO it's not bad and has a lot of associated links which should keep you busy for a while.