How does phalanx pikes stop arrows?

[Intranetusa]

How exactly does the pikes of sarrissa phalanxes stop arrows?

http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/5560/11111111111fk5.jpg

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Magic.

[Foot]

The tips of the pikes doubled as a small shield generator. The pikes, through their combined energies, were able to deflect incoming missiles up to a certain degree. Or ... we have already had this conversation. I imagine that it has something to do with hardcodes, and something to do with the fact that you are hardly seeing the full number of pikes that would have been fielded in a normal sized phalanx battalion.

Foot

[Southern Hunter]

The last answer I got to this question from an EB member was (paraphrasing) - 'They don't, we never said they did'.

Then to explain the high shield value of Phalangites, was added:

'Phalanx have high shield values to reflect that they are stronger from the front, and as shield values dont count from the rear (and right), phalanxes will be appropriately weaker in these situations.

Personally, as this has the effect of making them much better at stopping arrows than they should be, I think it should be looked at, with shield values representing shield size and strength only.

Cheers,

Hunter

[Intranetusa]

Actually, phalanxes still get huge bonuses from the sides. I can fire at a single phalanx with 5 archer units and maybe kill less than 30 of them from the sides, and less than 20 from the front.


In RTW Vanilla, phalanxes were still extremely powerful from the front, but they didn't have these huge anti-missile bonuses...
They could kill anything headon, but suffered a good amount of casualties from archers/slingers. Is there any way to recreate this?

[Ferromancer]

Yes, the phalanx formation did provide some extra protection against arrows: Sarissa

[LordCurlyton]

I believe the best explanation I saw in this ever-recurring topic was this (posted by I don't remember who): Try taking a small stick and throwing it thru a thick set of branches and see just how many times it gets thru with any appreciable energy.
IE, the pikes acted as shock absorbers and deflectors. Most arrows will either have the path deflected enough to not matter or will have their energy reduced to the point where the helmet/shield/linothorax will cause it to bounce off. Its not 100% effective but its a damn site better than nothing.
Also, remember that missile weapons were fired in a volley at spots of ground, not at individual people. Those pikes are a pretty good deterrent to an arcing arrow swarm. If you happen to get a bunch of Legolas quality archers that can run around direct firing on the phalanx they are just going to get slaughtered anyways.

[Dyabedes of Aphrodisias]

If you saw a full-sized phalanx battalion with its men in order and ready, you would see how it would stop arrows. 16-rank deep blocks of men, squished together with most of them holding their pikes in the air, it makes a forest. The vast majority of arrows just would not have gotten any meat.

[JeffBag]

Also, all the pikes would be vertically upwards during the skirmish phase, when they would be under fire from arrows that are arching downwards. Arrows, when volley fired, and after long distances in an arching trajectory, do not necessary move directly forwards anyway; they tend to curve side to side due to crosswinds. Therefore, to an arrow, its not really a 3 ft gap between each row of pikes, since it would most likely to be travelling at an angle upon reaching the forest of pikes.

[LorDBulA]

This is more real picture of what arrow has to pass to get to the guys.
Now imagine that every of this pikes is waving about half meter in every direction (a the end point).
It just hard for arrow to pass without bouncing few times, changing direction and loosing energy.

https://img135.imageshack.us/img135/7240/rometw2007051514344856yq4.jpg (https://addons.mozilla.org/firefox/1174)

[blank]

ok :smash:

How about sling stones? Do those also fly at an angle? :laugh4:

[Southern Hunter]

Let's just say that I would love to either a. get in my time machine and see it work in history or b. See it tested in the field by re-enactors or similar. It is a fascinating question.

I'm sure I would prefer a big shield like an Imperial legionary....but that is worse according to the EB figures we fight with.

[bovi]

Sling stones fly at not much of an angle at all. Which I think makes them even less effective, as the shield covers pretty much the whole body.

Edit: When crouching, I mean. Also the feet are likely vulnerable, but a hit to the feet wouldn't kill. Might incapacitate the victim though.

[abou]

It would bloody-f-ing hurt, that is what it would do.

[JeffBag]

As long as the guy is no longer capable of fighting, its good enough.

[Watchman]

Most phalangites had greaves though, didn't they ? I've read they were pretty much standard issue just to keep the pikes' sauroters from mauling the troopers' legs too much.

Anyway, slingstones fly in an arc like everything else. A shallower arc than arrows usually use maybe but still an arc. And the apex tends to be pretty high up when tossing at something far away, right ?


I'm sure I would prefer a big shield like an Imperial legionary....but that is worse according to the EB figures we fight with.Let's see you use a pike with one, wiseguy. :clown:

Anyway, phalangites seem to signally have failed to get decimated in a part of the world pretty much rotten with slings, javelins and composite bows. Whatever their anti-missile countermeasures now exactly were they presumably worked well enough.

[Intranetusa]

I believe the best explanation I saw in this ever-recurring topic was this (posted by I don't remember who): Try taking a small stick and throwing it thru a thick set of branches and see just how many times it gets thru with any appreciable energy.
IE, the pikes acted as shock absorbers and deflectors. Most arrows will either have the path deflected enough to not matter or will have their energy reduced to the point where the helmet/shield/linothorax will cause it to bounce off. Its not 100% effective but its a damn site better than nothing.
Also, remember that missile weapons were fired in a volley at spots of ground, not at individual people. Those pikes are a pretty good deterrent to an arcing arrow swarm. If you happen to get a bunch of Legolas quality archers that can run around direct firing on the phalanx they are just going to get slaughtered anyways.


Did you look at my picture? This is no "thick set of branches"...it's more like 10thin branches arranged in a row 3 feet from each other.


"Yes, the phalanx formation did provide some extra protection against arrows"
Your link does not mention stopping arrows.


"This is more real picture of what arrow has to pass to get to the guys."
They are not in the phalanx mode - they actually suffer more casualities if you take them out of phalanx mode.

[LorDBulA]

Sorry Intranetusa but are we talking game or real life?
I thought You asked how it worked in real life ( and thus my picture to visualize).
If You asked how it works in game then no game doesnt calculate exact path of arrow and then checks if arrow path was deflected by pike using physics.
There is just some kind modyfiers for standart RTW arrow casiulties system.
Exactly how it works? Only CA knows.

[The_Mark]

They are not in the phalanx mode - they actually suffer more casualities if you take them out of phalanx mode.
The pikes are there whether or not they are tilted forwards. Though, RTW might have some differing opinions on RL stuff, admittedly.

[abou]

If you want to experiment, try this. Get about ~100 (256 if you're feeling daring as that was the tactical division known as the speirai or syntagma) dowel rods and stick them in the ground in a fashion similar to the way they would be held in a phalanx (straight up or angled, it honestly doesn't matter that much). Now, how you place them is dependent on how much room you have. If you have thicker rods you could do a full 3ft breadth and 6ft depth. If not, you'll have to scaled it - maybe 1.5x3ft. You will also need to angle them.

Now, stand back some feet back and try throwing darts at it or other dowel rods. Hell, get some friends to join you. Anywhere there is a rod bent or broken that is where a sarissa would have absorbed the energy from an incoming missle, making it useless. It is much harder than you think to aim from several dozens, if not hundreds, of feet away and actually hit someone. And then you have to hope you hit his neck because practically everything else is protected except the right leg.

[Foot]

Did you look at my picture? This is no "thick set of branches"...it's more like 10thin branches arranged in a row 3 feet from each other.

It doesn't matter what your picture shows, it matters what the phalanx actually looked like, and with the actual historical numbers in a Macedonian style battalion you can truly understand why arrows would have a hard time getting through with any decent power. We can neither represent the true numbers nor the constant movement of the pike's length ingame, but we might as well represent those things in the stats.

Foot

[hellenes]

It doesn't matter what your picture shows, it matters what the phalanx actually looked like, and with the actual historical numbers in a Macedonian style battalion you can truly understand why arrows would have a hard time getting through with any decent power. We can neither represent the true numbers nor the constant movement of the pike's length ingame, but we might as well represent those things in the stats.

Foot

Cant you make the spacing between the soldiers thicker?

[Sultan Borat]

Greeks thought archery was dishonorable , Allot of the Greek Hellenic infantry was designed to fight other Hellenic armies so archers peppering them with arrows waisnt originally considered when Phalanx first came out. It waisnt until the Persians arrived that the Greeks needed to devise a counter to archery, That being larger shields and group formations similar to testudo. But simply the Persians of the arcmenid era used hit and run harrasement since their infantry couldn't stand up to the Greeks.

Years of war amongst the Hellenic states made the Greeks progress a great deal militarily. Where as Persia was dominant and unchallenged for centuries and far to use to amassing large armies and intimidating enemies into capitulating then actually fighting.

But what got the Persians to strike at the Greeks was the fact that many Greek states pirated trade caravans and shipping lanes , The Shahanshah Xerxes responded with a massive invasion with the intent of conquering all the Greeks.

Nations that weren't guilty of piracy were furious that the entire pot of city states got equal punishment for crimes of a few. So the Deal ion league was formed and of course you know the rest.

Sassinids on the other hand had superior cavalry to the Romans, They imported tough ass sogdian warriors to combat roman legionaries.

[Intranetusa]

It doesn't matter what your picture shows, it matters what the phalanx actually looked like, and with the actual historical numbers in a Macedonian style battalion you can truly understand why arrows would have a hard time getting through with any decent power. We can neither represent the true numbers nor the constant movement of the pike's length ingame, but we might as well represent those things in the stats.

Foot



Actually I believe historically, a phalanx unit was comprised of around 240 phalangites each. So A unit on HUGE settings would accurately portray the troop numbers.


I'm just saying, these phalangites have a higher chance of surviving arrow fire than heavy infantry with HUGE shields.

Is this "phalanx pikes stopping arrows" in RTW:EB only or did it actually happen in real life? Sources/sites please...


Afterall, in Rome Total War Vanilla, phalanxes were weak against missile weapons and many phalanx units in RTW die under archery fire.

[abou]

:wall:

[Watchman]

I feel your pain, brother. :shame:

[Sarcasm]

...it's like...eating too much ice-cream in one bite...

[Grey_Fox]

A person once made an apt post on another forum:

"In order to frame an adequate response I am going to ask a question that, while it may seem insulting, is not actually intended to be and should not be treated as such.

Are you stupid?"

[Conqueror]

Greeks thought archery was dishonorable , Allot of the Greek Hellenic infantry was designed to fight other Hellenic armies so archers peppering them with arrows waisnt originally considered when Phalanx first came out. It waisnt until the Persians arrived that the Greeks needed to devise a counter to archery, That being larger shields and group formations similar to testudo.

I thought it was the other way around: that archery fell out of favor amongst the greeks because hoplites in heavy armor and formed in "phalanx" (shieldwall) started appearing in battles, reducing the usefulness of missile weapons. Perhaps someone with actual expertice in the matter could clarify this? Altough it is a bit off topic here, since this thread really is about the Makedonian sarissa-phalanx.

[Watchman]

The Greeks fought as close-order heavy infantrymen because they were by and large part-time farmer-soldiers, who had little time to spare for the kind of specialized training for example archery requires (in the case you don't learn it in your everyday life; the EB description of the Toxotai mentions they're mainly reqruited from poor hunters of the highlands for example). Also, the terrain and nature of communal conflict in Greece favoured short but furious decisive close-combat encounters.

Conversely out East there was generally rather more elbow room to play around in and a lot of the kind of geography that produces good bowmen, and archery had played a very central part in most military traditions since Bronze Age at least. There were also rather a lot more professional soldiers around from quite early on, and battlefields tended to be more fluid and varied. Plus mobile archers had been around already since the heydays of the war chariot, and the horse-archers of Assyrian and Scythian inspiration were no less dangerous and both rather more agile and numerous; massed infantry archery was one of the better counters for such pesky foes who could run rings around heavy infantry.

By far more sophisticated (and common) siege warfare may also have been a factor.

It's not like the East lacked solid heavy infantry; it just wasn't the decisive arm, but more a shield for the missile troops and an anchor for the cavalry to operate around - one component in a combined-arms approach needed to deal with very diverse military challenges. The Greeks were conversely specialists in heavy shock infantry action (and little else) - and while their way of doing things did well enough on their home ground against the "Eastern" approach, one does get the impression it started falling short rather fast east of the Aegean (and, for that matter, north of Makedonia - the Thracian tribal light infantry initially ate hoplites for breakfast).

[blank]

Actually I believe historically, a phalanx unit was comprised of around 240 phalangites each. So A unit on HUGE settings would accurately portray the troop numbers.

Yes, it was around that number, but the unit wasn't stretched out like you'd do in RTW or EB. Instead, it had more ranks as opposed to a longer front. See this for an example:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/d9/Phalanx.jpg/800px-Phalanx.jpg


I'm just saying, these phalangites have a higher chance of surviving arrow fire than heavy infantry with HUGE shields.

An arrow could still hit that ''big-shielded'' soldier in the neck, in the shoulders, or in the head, especially since it arrives at a high angle from above. With many rows of phalanx pikes, the arrows would likely have already lost their kinetic energy even if they hit the soldier


Afterall, in Rome Total War Vanilla, phalanxes were weak against missile weapons and many phalanx units in RTW die under archery fire.

RTW vanilla is not very accurate in portraying the various strengths and weaknesses of different units and tactics.

[Watchman]

Am I remembering something wrong or wasn't the 256-man syntagma but an actually relatively small tactical sub-unit ? I'm under the impression the actual battlefield formations had a fair few of those joined up...

[mAIOR]

Yeah the actual formations were much larger... the Syntagma was a subtactical unit as the century... Now, you can't compare the effectiveness of a single century to that of a full cohort right?


Cheers...after the syntagma you have the Lochos wich is comprised by 512 men.
This was the main tactical unit for Macedonia under Alexander. And it proved quite effective against persian archer don't you think??

Cheers...

[Watchman]

I figure it on the average didn't do a damn thing to the Persian archers on account of never catching the guys, but it performed its chief job of anchoring the center while the cavalry did its thing at the flanks well enough. What not occasionally got disjointed and internally flanked.

Seemed to soak up arrows and such well enough too (at least from the front), but then again, the Persians could manage that much with guys with robes and sparas...

[Intranetusa]

^ I'll take your word for it then...

I'm just fustrated that my levy accesni slingers can kill more enemy phalanx phalangites than my double bronze chevroned cretan archers.

[Watchman]

That's the AP effect at work.

[Intranetusa]

yup... :(

[CaesarAugustus]

I never would have thought that sarissas could deflect arrows, but with all the explanations here it makes perfect sense now..... it still is quite annoying when a stack of horse-archers can't make a dent in a phalanx formation though....

[abou]

Intranet, you're usually a cool guy, but it helps to read all the posts in a thread.~;p

[Brightblade]

I second that.

[mAIOR]

Whatchman, what I meant was that the Macedonian phalanx wasn't obliterated by arrows. In fact, I've never read at any source that the huge numbers of archers were ever significant in Alexander conquests.


Cheers...

[Magister Militum Titus Pullo]

In my Seleukid campaign, I recruit large numbers of Thorakitai and Thuroporoi in my armies. Pezhetairoi and Phalangitai are, by design, defensive troops. I also make it a point to recruit mainly Persian, Elamite, Median, Skythian and Hindu archers. Hellenic archers are generally relegated to the defence of cities. I've just recently transported some Indian elephants and bowmen across Asia to Greece, and distributed them amongst my forces as I'm about to launch an invasion of Italy. The means are available to me, so I will crush my enemies with the deadly combination Greek discipline, Celtic ferocity and Eastern firepower.:whip:

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Nice to hear that someone came so far in a seleucid campaign. I love Seleucids for their diversity of units and their role as the only true Diadochi!
BTW, which year do you have in your campaign? And could you perhaps host a screenshot of your worldmap? Would be very nice:2thumbsup:

[Digby Tatham Warter]

I never would have thought that sarissas could deflect arrows, but with all the explanations here it makes perfect sense now..... it still is quite annoying when a stack of horse-archers can't make a dent in a phalanx formation though....

In a recent scrap I had as the Seleukids, fighting in eastern Europe, against 2 Roman stacks, the mercenary horse-archers they had(4 units, between the 2 stacks) picked on one of my medium pike units and reduced it from 242, to 160 men. It would have been worse except my own missile troops and cav drove them off.

The AI seems to find weak spots for it's missile troops to exploit, on this occasion the AI was firing across several units to hit a specific target in the flank.

One thing that could be pointed out about the pikes density, is that the picture in the first post, doesn't to me portray the real life density of the sarrisa pike block. In real life, wouldn't the men be shoulder to shoulder? When me and my son tried it we found that we are facing sideways towards the enemy, meaning we didn't need more than 2ft. How wide sideways was the average long distance marching phalangite?

I think that the dense massed pikes would of being particually effective reflecting larger missiles-javelins.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Funny that Sarissas act like a wood and stop arrows, but the woods in EB don't. Do archers still get "Bonus fighting in woods" in their unit description like in vanilla?

[Intranetusa]

Intranet, you're usually a cool guy, but it helps to read all the posts in a thread.~;p

RAWR! Will do. :)


"Funny that Sarissas act like a wood and stop arrows, but the woods in EB don't. Do archers still get "Bonus fighting in woods" in their unit description like in vanilla?"

Centurio makes an interesting point. Shouldn't forrests/wooded areas be able to deflect thousands of arrows/rocks?

[blank]

RAWR! Will do. :)


"Funny that Sarissas act like a wood and stop arrows, but the woods in EB don't. Do archers still get "Bonus fighting in woods" in their unit description like in vanilla?"

Centurio makes an interesting point. Shouldn't forrests/wooded areas be able to deflect thousands of arrows/rocks?

Don't the missile troops actually get negative modifiers in the forests? I think the description is just a bug or sth like that

[abou]

They are supposed to. Or some trait is supposed to give a bonus or negative bonus or something, but for some reason I don't think it is working in 1.5.

One of the guys in the stats group should know for sure.

[Magister Militum Titus Pullo]

Nice to hear that someone came so far in a seleucid campaign. I love Seleucids for their diversity of units and their role as the only true Diadochi!
BTW, which year do you have in your campaign? And could you perhaps host a screenshot of your worldmap? Would be very nice:2thumbsup:


I believe the year is 251 BC. But I am ashamed to say that I don't know how I could take a screenshot while the game is active. Any advice would be helpful. But if my word counts for anything, then I control territory from northern India to Carthage in North Africa. I've taken charge of former Bactrian provinces that includes the city of Sulek in the east. I govern much of the Arabian peninsula, except for the Sabean capital, but that shall change shortly. I rule all of Hellas, Makedonia, and Epirote lands and the Ptolemaic domains. I've taken over the nation of the Hayasedan, and all neighbouring countries south of the Sauromatae confederacy. I'm currently at war with the Parlava, the Carthaginians and I as I've mentioned, about to invade Italia. Whatever faction I control, whatever people I hold lordship over, I adapt their unique strenghs for my war machine. Deep inside my empire, I raise numerous light horse units, brigade them together, and use them to patrol the roads and valleys for bandits and rebels, and hunt them down. I even use low quality infantry for town garrisons, and if need be, transport them to sparsely populated cities, dispand them to bulk up the inhabitants numbers, so I could properly milk it for whatever troops it can provide me. I believe in intelligent military combat organisation and the useful utility of various unit types. Thats how I run my realm. Nothings wasted, everythings used to its potential. Ho Basilios.

[Watchman]

Centurio makes an interesting point. Shouldn't forrests/wooded areas be able to deflect thousands of arrows/rocks?Logically, yes, and they did back in MTW (and prolly STW as well, can't recall anymore). But I've fought enough arrow-fights in those huge-ass forests by now to be willing to state with certainty that in RTW as far as the vegetation is concerned everyone with a ranged weapon has a deal with the Devil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freischutz).
:shame:
Rather annoying that in some respects.

[bovi]

Hmm... I've found trees to be very effective at stopping missiles. No hard figures, but I think at least half of the missiles are blocked. Sometimes it seems I can only get 10-15 kills using all the ammo of one unit against another missile unit, usually that would result in over 100. Shooting from the open against a similar unit in woods is suicide, in my experience.

[LordCurlyton]

Agreed. I find missile weapons to be severely reduced in effectiveness in the woods.

[Ludens]

Hmm... I've found trees to be very effective at stopping missiles. No hard figures, but I think at least half of the missiles are blocked. Sometimes it seems I can only get 10-15 kills using all the ammo of one unit against another missile unit, usually that would result in over 100. Shooting from the open against a similar unit in woods is suicide, in my experience.
My slinger units seem to do pretty well in forests. Perhaps not as good as in open terrain, but that is most likely because I cannot direct the fire as well as when in the open. I admit I haven't really tested it though, but IIRC the Lordz did and they found trees had no effect on missile fire.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

I believe the year is 251 BC. But I am ashamed to say that I don't know how I could take a screenshot while the game is active. Any advice would be helpful. But if my word counts for anything, then I control territory from northern India to Carthage in North Africa. I've taken charge of former Bactrian provinces that includes the city of Sulek in the east. I govern much of the Arabian peninsula, except for the Sabean capital, but that shall change shortly. I rule all of Hellas, Makedonia, and Epirote lands and the Ptolemaic domains. I've taken over the nation of the Hayasedan, and all neighbouring countries south of the Sauromatae confederacy. I'm currently at war with the Parlava, the Carthaginians and I as I've mentioned, about to invade Italia. Whatever faction I control, whatever people I hold lordship over, I adapt their unique strenghs for my war machine. Deep inside my empire, I raise numerous light horse units, brigade them together, and use them to patrol the roads and valleys for bandits and rebels, and hunt them down. I even use low quality infantry for town garrisons, and if need be, transport them to sparsely populated cities, dispand them to bulk up the inhabitants numbers, so I could properly milk it for whatever troops it can provide me. I believe in intelligent military combat organisation and the useful utility of various unit types. Thats how I run my realm. Nothings wasted, everythings used to its potential. Ho Basilios.

I too don't know how to take a screenshot. It is still 251? And you already control Carthage? Holy sh*t! That's the time when it becomes boring for me because I will never be able to build a type 2 Government and some factional units in there, even when I control it for 40 years. But as far as I know from the EB Trading Card Project, Kleruchikoi Phalangitai can be recruited in North Africa and Gaul. It seems that this is not intended, and as you can't build type 2 government there, so you will never be able to recruit them. That's why I'm looking forward to Pharnakes' Recruitment mod.
But it will take a long time until that is ready and so I'm having an idea on how to do it, but it's in the planing stage and I think it is much more simple than Pharnakes aproach. I think I will evolve it around the "Colony" building and some new one's I'll include when I know how to do that:laugh4:

[Ludens]

I believe the year is 251 BC. But I am ashamed to say that I don't know how I could take a screenshot while the game is active.
You can find information and tips on how to create and host screenshots in this thread (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=45874).

[Magister Militum Titus Pullo]

I too don't know how to take a screenshot. It is still 251? And you already control Carthage? Holy sh*t! That's the time when it becomes boring for me because I will never be able to build a type 2 Government and some factional units in there, even when I control it for 40 years. But as far as I know from the EB Trading Card Project, Kleruchikoi Phalangitai can be recruited in North Africa and Gaul. It seems that this is not intended, and as you can't build type 2 government there, so you will never be able to recruit them. That's why I'm looking forward to Pharnakes' Recruitment mod.
But it will take a long time until that is ready and so I'm having an idea on how to do it, but it's in the planing stage and I think it is much more simple than Pharnakes aproach. I think I will evolve it around the "Colony" building and some new one's I'll include when I know how to do that:laugh4:



In Africa, I can't levy anything more formidable than Numidian skirmishers. You wouldn't believe the number of troops I have to import from Egypt and Kyrene to support the two armies I've sent to conquer Carthage's African territories. I need hoplites just to garrison the cities of Lepki, Adrumeto and Carthage itself. I thought that I would just rule from Italy to India with the Seleucids, but maybe I'll see how much further I can take them.:dizzy2: Elephant squadrons in Europe, Celtic warriors in Asia, this game allows for some creative logistics. Unlike with some factions, there is no point in playing in a historical pattern with the Seleucids since their stock gradually declined until they were reduced to a war-torn princedom that was devoured by Pompey's legions. With the right adjustments to their tactical organisation, they might have endured far longer than they did. I don't despise hoplites as soldiers, I just don't rely soley on them to win my wars for me. Without cavalry, skirmishers and bowmen supporting them in battle, they're deadmeat. Still, theres some provinces where I have to transport additional heavy infantry to keep them honest.

[mAIOR]

And you just enumerated the advantage of combined arms strategy. The strategy the Diachoi seem to have forgoten on their days.

Cheers...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Funny that Sarissas act like a wood and stop arrows, but the woods in EB don't. Do archers still get "Bonus fighting in woods" in their unit description like in vanilla?
I have to correct myself:

I was just watching my Syrian Archers firing flaming arrows with "follow-the-missile" camera mode, and I repeatedly saw the arrows being blocked by a huge palm tree. So trees definetly do stop arrows. Was the first time I ever noticed that.

[russia almighty]

I figure it on the average didn't do a damn thing to the Persian archers on account of never catching the guys, but it performed its chief job of anchoring the center while the cavalry did its thing at the flanks well enough. What not occasionally got disjointed and internally flanked.

Seemed to soak up arrows and such well enough too (at least from the front), but then again, the Persians could manage that much with guys with robes and sparas...


Ehh Watchman didn't the Sparabara have some sort of leather armor along with there wicker shield ?

Real good question , why wicker vs. wood ?

[Watchman]

The better-equipped formations presumably would have been armoured to some degree at least. Don't know if that was the norm though, and it would probably not strictly speaking have been necessary either - "shieldwall" infantry with big-ass shields tended to be fairly arrow-proof even without armour.

I understand wickerwork shields are a good way to get a perfectly serviceable arrow-stopper with a good weight-to-coverage ratio, although how well they stand up to close combat seems to be somewhat unclear.

[blank]

The better-equipped formations presumably would have been armoured to some degree at least. Don't know if that was the norm though, and it would probably not strictly speaking have been necessary either - "shieldwall" infantry with big-ass shields tended to be fairly arrow-proof even without armour.

I understand wickerwork shields are a good way to get a perfectly serviceable arrow-stopper with a good weight-to-coverage ratio, although how well they stand up to close combat seems to be somewhat unclear.

i imagine a bigger sword, an axe, or a falx would go through it (and likely the guy behind it) with no problem

[Watchman]

But that goes for most shields anyway...

[blank]

But that goes for most shields anyway...

:laugh4: true, but say, a bronze shield would stand greater chance of stopping the blow. Other shields like the scutum or hoplon could at least stop a regular sword or a spear, but i can't see a wicker shield holding a strong hit from a good quality sword or spear.
Honestly, that thing looks like a strong wind would take it apart ~D

[antiochus epiphanes]

Magic.
omg are you serious?!

[Intranetusa]

who ever thought of making shields from wicker...??? :(

[Watchman]

The Persians for one. Seemed to work pretty well for its primary purpose.

[Pharnakes]

The Persians for one. Seemed to work pretty well for its primary purpose.

Yeah, cheap, light and arrow resistant.

[mAIOR]

And had the nasty effect of entangling thrusting blows from spears and swords...


Cheers...

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I think one of the main reasons wicker is used is because any kind of metal was like precious metal to the peasants and high quality lumber is in short supply in the desert. A tangled screen of reeds will stop low velocity arrows and that's better than no shield. (Plus wicker doesn't weight you down and you can be more mobile.)

[Intranetusa]

^ wicker shields reminds me of paper armor

[Watchman]

Which worked pretty well.

[mAIOR]

Wasn't paper armor that armor made of 10X folded paper wich was really tough??

Cheers...

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Wasn't paper armor that armor made of 10X folded paper wich was really tough??

Cheers...

Kind of like linen armor then, but less flexible.

You'd have to watch out for those nasty fire arrows though :laugh4:

[mAIOR]

They weted the armor to make it even stronger and resilient to fire...


Cheers...

[blank]

They weted the armor to make it even stronger and resilient to fire...


Cheers...

Unless they did it during the battle, it wouldn't be of much use.
Since paper has the bad habit of drying...

[mAIOR]

Actually, they used it mostly on swampy/river side areas so it retty much got wet just by being exposed to the environment.
And when they made the armor they weted it with salty water. Also, when it rained it was better than iron armor as it didn't rust. It was used effectivelly by archers mostly as it provided good protection at a low weight.


Cheers...

[Intranetusa]

lacquer would've made it fireproof