Divorce

[Lemur]

The lemur is strongly anti-divorce, in case you're wondering, which you probably weren't. Ran across a good article (http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/pubtoptenmyths.htm) today, which I leave to the Backroomers to debunk.

Divorce is the real threat to stable families, as opposed to gay marriage, landsharks, liberal values, or water fluoridation. I know there are abusive relationships, and some marriages do need to be dissolved, but I find it hard to believe that 1/2 of all American marriages are in such dire straits. Rather, I suspect that many marriages are ended out of ignorance, laziness, weakness and/or selfishness.

All of the politicians talk about "families" and "family values." Many of those same politicos are on their second, third or fourth marriage. None of them want to talk seriously about lowering the divorce rate; they'd much rather wave various red herrings.

The Top Ten Myths of Divorce
Discussion of the most common misinformation about divorce
David Popenoe

1. Because people learn from their bad experiences, second marriages tend to be more successful than first marriages.

Although many people who divorce have successful subsequent marriages, the divorce rate of remarriages is in fact higher than that of first marriages.

2. Living together before marriage is a good way to reduce the chances of eventually divorcing.

Many studies have found that those who live together before marriage have a considerably higher chance of eventually divorcing. The reasons for this are not well understood. In part, the type of people who are willing to cohabit may also be those who are more willing to divorce. There is some evidence that the act of cohabitation itself generates attitudes in people that are more conducive to divorce, for example the attitude that relationships are temporary and easily can be ended.

3. Divorce may cause problems for many of the children who are affected by it, but by and large these problems are not long lasting and the children recover relatively quickly.

Divorce increases the risk of interpersonal problems in children. There is evidence, both from small qualitative studies and from large-scale, long-term empirical studies, that many of these problems are long lasting. In fact, they may even become worse in adulthood.

4. Having a child together will help a couple to improve their marital satisfaction and prevent a divorce.

Many studies have shown that the most stressful time in a marriage is after the first child is born. Couples who have a child together have a slightly decreased risk of divorce compared to couples without children, but the decreased risk is far less than it used to be when parents with marital problems were more likely to stay together “for the sake of the children.”

5. Following divorce, the woman’s standard of living plummets by seventy three percent while that of the man’s improves by forty two percent.

This dramatic inequity, one of the most widely publicized statistics from the social sciences, was later found to be based on a faulty calculation. A reanalysis of the data determined that the woman’s loss was twenty seven percent while the man’s gain was ten percent. Irrespective of the magnitude of the differences, the gender gap is real and seems not to have narrowed much in recent decades.

6. When parents don’t get along, children are better off if their parents divorce than if they stay together.

A recent large-scale, long-term study suggests otherwise. While it found that parents’ marital unhappiness and discord have a broad negative impact on virtually every dimension of their children’s well-being, so does the fact of going through a divorce. In examining the negative impacts on children more closely, the study discovered that it was only the children in very high conflict homes who benefited from the conflict removal that divorce may bring. In lower-conflict marriages that end in divorce—and the study found that perhaps as many as two thirds of the divorces were of this type—the situation of the children was made much worse following a divorce. Based on the findings of this study, therefore, except in the minority of high-conflict marriages it is better for the children if their parents stay together and work out their problems than if they divorce.

7. Because they are more cautious in entering marital relationships and also have a strong determination to avoid the possibility of divorce, children who grow up in a home broken by divorce tend to have as much success in their own marriages as those from intact homes.

Marriages of the children of divorce actually have a much higher rate of divorce than the marriages of children from intact families. A major reason for this, according to a recent study, is that children learn about marital commitment or permanence by observing their parents. In the children of divorce, the sense of commitment to a lifelong marriage has been undermined.

8. Following divorce, the children involved are better off in stepfamilies than in single-parent families.

The evidence suggests that stepfamilies are no improvement over single-parent families, even though typically income levels are higher and there is a father figure in the home. Stepfamilies tend to have their own set of problems, including interpersonal conflicts with new parent figures and a very high risk of family breakup.

9. Being very unhappy at certain points in a marriage is a good sign that the marriage will eventually end in divorce.

All marriages have their ups and downs. Recent research using a large national sample found that eighty six percent of people who were unhappily married in the late 1980s, and stayed with the marriage, indicated when interviewed five years later that they were happier. Indeed, three fifths of the formerly unhappily married couples rated their marriages as either “very happy” or “quite happy.”

10. It is usually men who initiate divorce proceedings

Two-thirds of all divorces are initiated by women. One recent study found that many of the reasons for this have to do with the nature of our divorce laws. For example, in most states women have a good chance of receiving custody of their children. Because women more strongly want to keep their children with them, in states where there is a presumption of shared custody with the husband the percentage of women who initiate divorces is much lower.10 Also, the higher rate of women initiators is probably due to the fact that men are more likely to be "badly behaved." Husbands, for example, are more likely than wives to have problems with drinking, drug abuse, and infidelity.

[Rodion Romanovich]

I don't think divorce can be avoided in a sex-oriented society. Modern culture emphasizes sex over a "household alliance", and it's then not surprising with divorce. Monkeys also tend to switch partners every now and then, so perhaps we're hard-wired to act that way unless we're given an upbringing that makes us change opinion. The problem with divorce is however the children, who often get alienated, become bullied or bullies, and may get problems with their education. If we wish to have sex and relations like cavemen, we probably need to have herds collectively raising children like cavemen, so the partner switches of parents don't drastically change the living situation of the children (this however requires switching only between the partners within some designated small enough herd, which may not be enough for some). I don't see any solution to the problems except either sticking to traditional culture family values completely, or reintroducing herds completely. The compromise between the two doesn't work very well IMO.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Whoa. New forum tag.

Also, I read in a really right-wing rag that states with waiting periods for divorces had lower rates.

Also also, no fault divorces might be part of the problem.

[JimBob]

I blame Hollywood, in all seriousness I do. TV and movies give us this picture of love and marriage. Two unhappy people, they meet, stare into each others eyes, fall in love, complete each other, and live happily ever after. When people's relationships don't play like Sleepless in Seattle people give up on them. How to change it I don't know.

[Lemur]

When people's relationships don't play like Sleepless in Seattle people give up on them. How to change it I don't know.
You could just as validly blame every fairy tale story in which the prince and the princess "lived happily ever after."

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I honestly don't understand why anyone gets married anyway. Only about 50-50 that you're not going to get divorced, huge acrimony if you do, the possibility you'll get seriously ripped off by divorce settlements, all for a few tax breaks.

What's the point?

[ShadeHonestus]

IMO marriage has been marginalized by today's shack up culture and people don't see it as a valued commitment that requires attention and integrity to the principle by both people. Its become more of a value as a means to an end, in its end, by many. Surprisingly the divorce rate has gone down recently. I remember hearing the study, but not what was or what was not factored into it, but at first glance I would say that many of those people who don't value marriage are simply not getting married, deciding to go with the co-existence theory subject only to palimony. I could of course be incredibly wrong, but its my shot in the dark at an explanation for divorces decline.

[Watchman]

Meh. If two people can no longer tolerate each others' faces in the morning, better that they go their separate ways than keep poisoning each others' lives. Marriage or no.

[DemonArchangel]

My opinion is, if you're going to get married, at least think things through before doing it. Don't rush into it and make sure you know what you're doing.

[CrossLOPER]

My opinion is, if you're going to get married, at least think things through before doing it. Don't rush into it and make sure you know what you're doing.
Time seems to slip quickly. People like to rush things. They get trapped in momentum. Hard to escape once one of you gets caught.

[Watchman]

Plus being in love is rightly infamous for reducing your common sense and judgement to the level of a concussed kitten.

[ShadeHonestus]

Plus being in love is rightly infamous for reducing your common sense and judgement to the level of a concussed kitten.


Too much credit...

[Watchman]

Concussed kittens might take offense at that slur, true.

[ShadeHonestus]

Lucky for you that this isn't radio and your last name isn't Imus.....or is it...

[Watchman]

Most certainly not. Mind you, foreigners tend to have major issues pronouncing it although it's quite simple.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

To be fair, divorce did give us Haitian Divorce, an excellent song.

[Pindar]

The lemur is strongly anti-divorce, in case you're wondering, which you probably weren't. Ran across a good article (http://marriage.rutgers.edu/Publications/pubtoptenmyths.htm) today, which I leave to the Backroomers to debunk.

Divorce is the real threat to stable families, as opposed to gay marriage, landsharks, liberal values, or water fluoridation.


This is rubbish. The danger caused by landsharks cannot be so easily dismissed.

After giving landsharks their proper due: how does the Lemur rank divorce vs out of wedlock births (where there was no marriage from the get go) and the social impact?

[The Spartan (Returns)]

I honestly don't understand why anyone gets married anyway. Only about 50-50 that you're not going to get divorced, huge acrimony if you do, the possibility you'll get seriously ripped off by divorce settlements, all for a few tax breaks.

What's the point?some people may not want to have sex until marriage, you pass down your bloodline (if you have a son), etc. i like the idea of waking up every day to the hottest woman ever.

i'm fanatically against divorce. when you marry a woman you are both one, to divorce is to seperate the two which is what God never intended. divorcing with kids, and then marry another woman creates huge problems.. etc. my religion kicks in.

so choose the right one and dont divorce!!

[rotorgun]

After twenty-one years of marriage to my first (and only) wife, and believe me that we have had our share of woes, I still can't think of living without her. Ever watch a good team of horses pulling a load? Sometimes one pulls more than the other, sometimes both pull together. Marriage is always best when both are pulling thier end of the load. (Men especially take note) I have seen many a good mariage go south because the husband gives up. It is hard work and takes guts and staying power. The best answer to the question of wether or not to divorce is "Love her more." Love is an action verb men. Let your actions speak as loudly as your words.

I believe that our over-reliance on materializm is a great factor in today's divorce rate. Keepin' up with the Jonses and trying to get instant gratification make poor bedfellows with marriage. If people would concentrate more on living each day as it comes, and giving to each other instead of taking so much, than divorce would be only for what it was meant for- a means of getting out of a marriage to an adulterous partner or an abusive one.

[Lemur]

After giving landsharks their proper due: how does the Lemur rank divorce vs out of wedlock births (where there was no marriage from the get go) and the social impact?
I don't mean to be overly dismissive of landsharks—they are dangerous and ornery beasts—but I believe they pose more of a threat to life and limb than to marriage in particular.

Out of wedlock births, much like divorce, depend heavily on context, but on the whole I don't think they're net positive.

Examples:

A woman leaves a physically abusive man and files for divorce. This is justified.
A man leaves his wife 'cause the spark is gone, and he misses the newness of love. This is morally bankrupt and indefensible.



A woman has a baby who will never know its father. To boot, she has trouble making ends meet, and has no real support system with her family. This is very bad news for the kid.
A woman has a baby with the man she loves and lives with, but they choose not to marry. They have enough money and fortitude to raise the kid, and they have a good relationship with their extended family. This is very good news for the kid, and I have no real argument if someone wants to go this route. (Although I think a formal marriage bond is a good idea.)

It's all terribly context-dependent. Anything sane that promotes stable, healthy family units is net positive. Anything that encourages men and women to abandon their responsibilities/mates/families is a net negative. Single parenting is not an activity I would wish on my worst enemy.

Does this even begin to answer your question, or am I off rambling down a country lane talking gibberish?

The best answer to the question of wether or not to divorce is "Love her more." Love is an action verb men. Let your actions speak as loudly as your words.
Amen to that, brother.

[doc_bean]

Few, for a moment I thought lemur was going to announce he was getting a divorce, glad you're not.



Also, the higher rate of women initiators is probably due to the fact that men are more likely to be "badly behaved." Husbands, for example, are more likely than wives to have problems with drinking, drug abuse, and infidelity.[/ex]

I'm sorry, if you're going to make claims like that in a study that appears to want to look at least a bit scientifc you'd better have data to back it up.



I believe that our over-reliance on materializm is a great factor in today's divorce rate. Keepin' up with the Jonses and trying to get instant gratification make poor bedfellows with marriage.

This is probably the main reason for divorce. Society teaches us to never be content, to always strive for something better. Which tends to be a decent attitude when for a career. But if you keep looking for a better (wo)man, even subconsciously, that's not going to benefit your marriage.



i like the idea of waking up every day to the hottest woman ever.

What makes you think you're worthy of the hottest woman ever ?

Most people have to settle, I don't mean that in a negative way, that's just the way it is, finding a partner that is 100% perfect is impossible. But you learn to live with the good sides and the bad, which is imo where love really grows. You love the little things, the little imperfections, I don't think it's possible to love someone who is perfect.

So when you finally deside to 'settle', make sure you don't keep looking for 'the hottest woman ever'.

@Lemur : What do you propose to do about the divorce rate ? Make it harder to divorce ? Outlaw it ? Because I can't see any freedom loving measures that can work...

[Cronos Impera]

Men, Divorce Legislation was introduced via Feminism and it's meant to benefit women and only women.
If your spouse decides she's bored with you or thinks you've done something stupid your whole life goes in flames.She gets the kids and 1/2 of your propriety and your lawyers leach on you as much as they can so you end up bankrupt and lonely no matter if you're guilty or not. Because women no matter what, always manage to look good in front of a judge and "persuade" him or her you're a bum or abuser.
So, the moral is never choose a partner that is not your equal, in love or buisness.Cause she would take you down.

[Spetulhu]

Men, Divorce Legislation was introduced via Feminism and it's meant to benefit women and only women.

Really? I recall the King of England declaring himself the highest authority of the local (then-catholic) church because he wanted a divorce. The new Church of England promptly granted the King his wish so he could marry a hotter woman.

[Beirut]

I honestly don't understand why anyone gets married anyway. Only about 50-50 that you're not going to get divorced, huge acrimony if you do, the possibility you'll get seriously ripped off by divorce settlements, all for a few tax breaks.

What's the point?

Says the guy who's going to pull in 100K+ a year when he graduates and doesn't want to have to share it with da broads except one expensive dinner and hotel suite at a time.

(God, how I envy you.)

[English assassin]

You can fiddle about with the legal aspects (I have some sympathy with ending no fault divorce provided divorce does not then become even more of a legal gravy train than it it) but this is primarily a cultural issue. Married or no, any long term relationship is going to be work. I hope its good, enjoyable work, like, don't know, building your own house or something, but just like building a house sometimes you are going to be choosing the curtains and sometimes you are going to be shovelling cement.

We don't exactly have a knuckle down and take it culture any more, do we? We have a culture were "I" am always right, where "I" have the right to be fulfilled, happy, loved, valued, and if I am not, by god, that is the world's fault and not mine, and its the world that had better change because I am just A OK.

The trouble is to paraphrase a bad sales team peptalk, there is no "I" in marriage. (Well, OK, there is, right there between the "r" and the "a", but you know what I mean). I seem to see a lot of people who are barely socialised these days. What they need/think/want comes first. The only reason for the validity of their desires that they need is that they are indeed their desires. (I imagine it must be rather like being an animal, not a human at all.)

I'm not sure these people can even understand the concept of what a marriage is, let alone make it work.

@ BKS, you probably have a point, unless you want kids. BTW there are basically no tax breaks for being married, labour abolished them.

[Cronos Impera]

Well, King Henry's divorce was just a pretext for the emerging Anglican Church. He was forced to divorce by the more radical priesthood.And heads did fall later on, including the hotter spouse you're talking about.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

(I have some sympathy with ending no fault divorce provided divorce does not then become even more of a legal gravy train than it it)

Wouldn't getting rid of no-fault divorce just result in people perjuring themselves in order to show fault? If people want to get divorced, it seems to me they're going to, so you might as well try to preserve the integrity of the legal system.

[Ser Clegane]

Wouldn't getting rid of no-fault divorce just result in people perjuring themselves in order to show fault?

I think that was actually a main reason to introduce no-fault divorce here in Germany - to avoid all the mud-slinging (that was really great for the children) around determining who's fault the failure was.
Apart from that blaming the failure on just one of the two partners often does not really make that much sense.

[English assassin]

Fair comments, but "because I want to" just doesn't seem a good enough reason for a divorce to me.

Possibly the same objective could be served by a mandatory two year period between filing for divorce and having it granted (waivable in the case of domestic violence)

Or, maybe we should abolish civil marriage altogether. Why is the civil law interested in that, optional, relationship? Two adults announce they are having sex with each other and will try not to have it with anyone else- well, great, but what has this got to do with the legal system?

Maybe we should instead have a mandatory parenthood relationship, that happens to you once you have a child with someone whether you sign up for it or not, and from which there is no get out (obviously this would not be exclusive, you could have more than one).

Marriage would still exist, of course, but it would be a matter for the churches, the humanists, and anyone who wanted to have a party and announce "we are married".

Let no one tell you the Assassin is incapable of thinking laterally.

[Odin]

To be fair, divorce did give us Haitian Divorce, an excellent song.

Nice to see a steely dan reference from the album "the royal scam" (appropriate for a thread on divorce).

Marriage is a major life committment and shouldnt be done soely on an emotional basis. I've been married going on 9 years, and its the best and worst thing I have ever done. This topic is very subjective based on circumstance, good marriages can go bad, and bad ones get better.

Its really a matter of values, and divorce while not ideal has a valid place in the equation as often, its the best scenario for all those involved.

[Ser Clegane]

Fair comments, but "because I want to" just doesn't seem a good enough reason for a divorce to me.
Fully agree


Possibly the same objective could be served by a mandatory two year period between filing for divorce and having it granted (waivable in the case of domestic violence)
Seems reasonable - currently the general rule is that a couple has to live separated for one years before the divorce is granted (of course there are exceptions - a judge has to decide in the end about "hardship cases".


Or, maybe we should abolish civil marriage altogether. Why is the civil law interested in that, optional, relationship? Two adults announce they are having sex with each other and will try not to have it with anyone else- well, great, but what has this got to do with the legal system?.

Not so sure about that - as you are often creating a certain degree of dependency (e.g., financially) in such a relationship some legally defined "groundrules" to protect both partners do make sense IMO

[Devastatin Dave]

Nice to see a steely dan reference from the album "the royal scam" (appropriate for a thread on divorce).

Marriage is a major life committment and shouldnt be done soely on an emotional basis. I've been married going on 9 years, and its the best and worst thing I have ever done. This topic is very subjective based on circumstance, good marriages can go bad, and bad ones get better.

Its really a matter of values, and divorce while not ideal has a valid place in the equation as often, its the best scenario for all those involved.
I've been married nine years yourself and it looks like we have the same opinion, maybe its our condition!!! Anyway, everyone's different and you can't kill the old lady like the good ol' days or sell her into slavery. Divorce is a good thing, no matter what many on my side say. Sure, it can screw up kids but I've seen kids flourish after a divorce. Again, not every kid is the same either. Statistics, psycology, enviroment, the quality of you weed, there are just too many factors to say whats good/bad about divorce.
I told my wife that when she hit 36, I'm trading her in for 2 18 year olds!!!:laugh4:

[Lemur]

What do you propose to do about the divorce rate ? Make it harder to divorce ? Outlaw it ? Because I can't see any freedom loving measures that can work...
I think the change needs to be personal, social and moral. Peer pressure can accomplish things that are awkward and/or impossible for the law. Remember, the law is a blunt instrument, often wielded by the stupidest and greediest members of our society, so I tend to be very cautious about referring anything to that system.

I'm sorry, if you're going to make claims like that in a study that appears to want to look at least a bit scientifc you'd better have data to back it up.
Follow teh link to see teh sources. I didn't include endnotes in the text I copied, 'cause I figured anybody that curious would at least look at the source.

Note for the section you contest:

10 Margaret F. Brinig and Douglas A. Allen, “’These Boots Are Made For Walking”: Why Most Divorce Filers Are Women” American Law and Economics Review 2-1 (2000): 126-169

[Odin]

I've been married nine years yourself and it looks like we have the same opinion, maybe its our condition!!! Anyway, everyone's different and you can't kill the old lady like the good ol' days or sell her into slavery. Divorce is a good thing, no matter what many on my side say. Sure, it can screw up kids but I've seen kids flourish after a divorce. Again, not every kid is the same either. Statistics, psycology, enviroment, the quality of you weed, there are just too many factors to say whats good/bad about divorce.
I told my wife that when she hit 36, I'm trading her in for 2 18 year olds!!!:laugh4:

Wait until she hits 40 and wants more kids.... :laugh4:

My personal opinion is that the romantasism of marriage is something derived first from lust then from enhancement of status. Romance is a big part of it I concede, but once kids come a long and a house and committments it becomes its own little business in itself.

I think a lot of people become soiled by this process, that once the romance is gone the dishes need to be done, the laundry put away. Does that make divorce the best option for when things get tough? No, but without it as an option the likely hood of reconcilliation seems to me to be far less.

While there are many imperfections living in a society of free will the concept of marriage and divorce is one that hasnt moved beyond its historical notions yet, and in that spirit you get those who do not look at it in its present day practical application.

[Whacker]

So many posts. I agree largely with what Lemur, Davemeister, and Odin have said so far. I'm hitting my 4th anniv. in a week exactly, and it's been one of the best and worst things I've ever done. Along the lines of why divorce rates are so high, personally I really chalk that one up to laziness. People don't realize that it's not in any way shape or form a fairy tale (except maybe in like .00001% of cases), and it takes a LOT of effort and compromise. No shame here in admitting that we went to counselling for about a year because we were falling apart. If ya's need to do that, at least give it a shot. Just make sure you get a GOOD counselor that you can both relate to, and do NOT go to family members or friends to fulfill that role.

:balloon2:

[doc_bean]

Follow teh link to see teh sources. I didn't include endnotes in the text I copied, 'cause I figured anybody that curious would at least look at the source.

Note for the section you contest:

10 Margaret F. Brinig and Douglas A. Allen, “’These Boots Are Made For Walking”: Why Most Divorce Filers Are Women” American Law and Economics Review 2-1 (2000): 126-169

Oops, i don't normally follow links if the entire article is pasted.

Regardless, the place of the citation makes it unclear whether or not the last part of their statement is due to the article. The abstract of the articles talks about custody of the children and economics (a rational decision), and doesn't mention domestic violence, which is completely contrary to the reasons specified in your article. Too bad I can't acces the full article.

EDIT: the reason I found this last line questionable was because it feels like throw away line in an otherwise seriously founded article AND because I've seen studies 'proving' that women cheat as often as men do.

[Pindar]

Does this even begin to answer your question, or am I off rambling down a country lane talking gibberish?


My question was meant to contrast the societal impact of divorce vs. single parent families.

[Devastatin Dave]

I was playing hide the sausage with the Old Lady the other night and I was thinking about the usual; baseball, Lemur's furry tail, and Minnie Mouse. Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it? Probably not since I'm thinking of a great play that Andruw Jones made the other night, Lemur stroking his tail while posting a response to one of my vicious salvos, and Minnie Mouse wearing a cat suit. Its the fact that this woman actually chose my sorry ass and she chose to have our children. Gotta love her even if she doesn't like baseball, doesn't have a prehensil tail, or will squeek for me like Minnie mouse when I get her to wear a catsuit.
Love's real, people just don't appreciate it.

[English assassin]

I was playing hide the sausage with the Old Lady the other night and I was thinking about the usual; baseball, Lemur's furry tail, and Minnie Mouse. Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it? Probably not since I'm thinking of a great play that Andruw Jones made the other night, Lemur stroking his tail while posting a response to one of my vicious salvos, and Minnie Mouse wearing a cat suit. Its the fact that this woman actually chose my sorry ass and she chose to have our children. Gotta love her even if she doesn't like baseball, doesn't have a prehensil tail, or will squeek for me like Minnie mouse when I get her to wear a catsuit.
Love's real, people just don't appreciate it.

Its Hunter S Thompson channelled through Readers Digest, :laugh4:

DD, mate, seriously, you should have your own show. :2thumbsup:

[Kagemusha]

I would like to point out,that while i support family values. In the end people should do what makes them happy. We should also remember that while divorce rarely is good thing for the children,many times unhappy marriage has the exactly same effect. What is important in my wiew is that people should take responsibilty of their deeds,married or not.

[Sasaki Kojiro]

If people want to get divorced they should get divorced. It's no concern of mine if someone get's married and divorced every weekend.


“’These Boots Are Made For Walking”: Why Most Divorce Filers Are Women”

Referencing a crappy song and using the reference incorrectly? Golden.


Maybe we should instead have a mandatory parenthood relationship, that happens to you once you have a child with someone whether you sign up for it or not, and from which there is no get out (obviously this would not be exclusive, you could have more than one).

I do think this makes more sense. If there are no kids there should be no reason for the marriage break up not to occur with ease. I do think you should have to sign up for the kid though, pro-choice and all that.

[Spino]

I was playing hide the sausage with the Old Lady the other night and I was thinking about the usual; baseball, Lemur's furry tail, and Minnie Mouse. Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it? Probably not since I'm thinking of a great play that Andruw Jones made the other night, Lemur stroking his tail while posting a response to one of my vicious salvos, and Minnie Mouse wearing a cat suit. Its the fact that this woman actually chose my sorry ass and she chose to have our children. Gotta love her even if she doesn't like baseball, doesn't have a prehensil tail, or will squeek for me like Minnie mouse when I get her to wear a catsuit.
Love's real, people just don't appreciate it.

Err, you do know those expiration dates they put on food are there for a reason? :inquisitive:

[Whacker]

DD, mate, seriously, you should have your own show. :2thumbsup:

He already does, it's called The Backroom. :laugh4:

[Husar]

Pretty sad thread, the only one I agree with would be Lemur I think and maybe whoever I forgot who has the same opinion.
If marriage and kids are that useless why don't we just have our fun alone or in loose pairs and exterminate mankind that way? Why should we care what happens after we're gone if we're gone anyway? After I'm dead with no kids, the world can explode, be eaten by a big alien or whatever, it's all about having your fun before you're gone, no?
This way there'd be no worrying about kids either, apparently they just cause problems when adults want to have fun and sex.:sweatdrop:

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

If marriage and kids are that useless why don't we just have our fun alone or in loose pairs and exterminate mankind that way? Why should we care what happens after we're gone if we're gone anyway? After I'm dead with no kids, the world can explode, be eaten by a big alien or whatever, it's all about having your fun before you're gone, no?

I suppose I'm just biased because my parents have never been married, and they raised me and my sister perfectly well. So if you don't need to be married to raise kids, what's the point of tying the knot and opening up all kinds of complicated legal issues?

[Watchman]

I don't see where how you deal with kids or don't (or whether you have them or not in the first place) has anything to do with marriage. It's not exactly, you know, a biological prequisite for procreation...

You can have marriages without children and children without marriages (I come form the latter, incidentally). Either may work or not, depending on the people involved; their specific maritial status has rather little bearing on the matter far as I know.

The reason divorces are common these days is IMO simply because they've become practically possible (which they for the most part weren't not all that long ago) and are no longer horribly stigmatized by stiff-necked peers (which was the norm until fairly recently). Sorta like how infanticide and suicide rates have kind of benefited from the fact giving birth to a kid outside marriage is no longer a devastating shame on the mother...

Anyway, I do agree that if one goes and makes children he or she should take proper care of them. Since it tends to take more than one person to achieve the feat that naturally goes for all of the participants; it's a question of basic ethics really, and has nothing to do with the tradition of marriage.

Although that assumes the person(s) in question are actually qualified to raise kids; I've some bad personal experience around the topic. Some people are, or would be, indeed most beneficial for their offspring if their role in their existence were limited pretty much exactly to the biological part... :shifty:

[Tribesman]

i'm fanatically against divorce. when you marry a woman you are both one, to divorce is to seperate the two which is what God never intended.
Its in the laws of Moses , maybe he misheard God .:shrug:


Divorce Legislation was introduced via Feminism and it's meant to benefit women and only women.

Divorce legislation is ancient .


If people want to get divorced they should get divorced. It's no concern of mine if someone get's married and divorced every weekend.
spot on :2thumbsup:

[Watchman]

Although one would imagine all the ceremonials and legal wranglings involved were rather heavy on the bankbook.

[Tribesman]

Although one would imagine all the ceremonials and legal wranglings involved were rather heavy on the bankbook.
Yeah , but think of it , a big party every weekend .~:cheers:

[PanzerJaeger]

The problem is not divorce. The problem is people choosing to get married without being mature enough to evaluate their partner and the chances of success of a long term relationship. Too many are getting married for the wrong reasons, including "Romantic Love", without considering whether that type of love will last 2,5, or 10 years in the future.

Its always the kids who suffer because of their parents immature decisions.

[Watchman]

Yeah , but think of it , a big party every weekend .~:cheers:First time ever I heard you need to get hitched to hold one. Who knew all the drunks wobbling around the city at Saturday night were actually marriage revelers ?
:balloon2:

[Watchman]

Its always the kids who suffer because of their parents immature decisions.As already mentioned, being in love is notorious for turning you into a blithering idiot in many respects.

Personally, I figure the condition is serious enough it ought to count as a mitigating circumstance at court if need be - that the person afflicted is not in full possession of his mental faculties is often readily enough obvious.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it? Probably not since I'm thinking of a great play that Andruw Jones made the other night,

Yes its not what it used to be is it? It does sort of get old after 30 or 40 years :laugh4:

I used to tell mine that it had turned into work and I didnt have 3 or 4 hours to devote to it.:laugh4:

If you get married for the right reasons you probably wont get divorced.

[The Spartan (Returns)]

What makes you think you're worthy of the hottest woman ever ?

Most people have to settle, I don't mean that in a negative way, that's just the way it is, finding a partner that is 100% perfect is impossible. But you learn to live with the good sides and the bad, which is imo where love really grows. You love the little things, the little imperfections, I don't think it's possible to love someone who is perfect.

So when you finally deside to 'settle', make sure you don't keep looking for 'the hottest woman ever'.waking up to a woman is good enough for me. im sure most husbands would find their wives very attractive; the hottest woman ever. you should imo. i agree with you totally right there, and of course no one is perfect.

[Husar]

I suppose I'm just biased because my parents have never been married, and they raised me and my sister perfectly well. So if you don't need to be married to raise kids, what's the point of tying the knot and opening up all kinds of complicated legal issues?
It's an ancient form of showing your partner how much you love him/her and some people still connect certain feelings with marriage etc.
Ideally, if you find the right partner before you marry, there will never be any legal issues, but when marriage was introduced, I don't think the legal systems were as complicated as they are today and divorce was probably not a real option anyway. Our modern societies make many things quite complicated, yet we don't abandon them all.

What's also interesting is that marriage seems to exist almost everywhere, there are marriage rituals in african tribes, hawaiian marriage rituals etc. I'm not an expert and may be wrong, but doesn't that indicate that marriage is not a cultural thing but rather something ingrained in human nature?

[Tristrem]

I really don't have much experience with marriage, i'm still ah youngin as they say (18), but think marrige is really important. I think it is a serious commitment, and one people take too lightly nowadays. Marriage is meant to be for life, not only when it is comvenient and fun.

I know when i have to make that decision, is she the one, there will be a lot of thought put into it, because i'm one of those hopeless romantics, and i think i would not be able to deal with her splitting us up.

just my 2 cents :2cents:

[rotorgun]

Anyhoo, another thought popped into my little cranium, how much work it took for me to get to "that" point. Is the sex worth it?

My Father-in-law, a man I have come to admire as much as my own father, passed this on to me: "After awhile, you'll come around to the thinkin' that Sex is the most highly over-rated thing in the world, while the most under-rated is a good healthy dump"-J. Massey. I had to admit that he has a point
:idea2: ....chucke.

[Lemur]

I know when i have to make that decision, is she the one, there will be a lot of thought put into it, because i'm one of those hopeless romantics, and i think i would not be able to deal with her splitting us up.
Actually, it's vanishingly unlikely that you'll marry someone and not have problems. Nobody is smart or wise enough to select a partner with whom they will experience no friction, pain or conflict.

The trick is how you deal with conflict. That's where marriage becomes hard but rewarding work. Seems to the lemur that too many people just give up the minute things get rough.

Also, I want to give a shout-out to DevDave. Your posts just keep getting better and better, man. If you're not writing for money, you should think about it.

[Samurai Waki]

I completely agree with Lemur on this one. People are so biased to their side, that they can't see over the fence onto their partners side. I know when Ms. Waki and I first started living in together, there were certainly things about both of us that needed to changed. We fought, but never screaming and yelling, and its the willingness of both sides to come to terms with each other, and making small adjustments. I think a lot of guys...and women walk into a relationship, and say to themselves in a little whisper "Nope. I'm not changing." But its necessary and unavoidable, now if you change too much, then somethings amiss...

Right after my parents got a divorce and my family split across the country, me and my second older brother going with my dad, and my Oldest and Youngest Brothers going with my mom. I remember my dad told me he didn't understand what happened. He said that he always firmly believed in

Love
Respect
Honor
Loyalty

So I didn't understand why my mom left my dad, because these are integral things in a relationship that keep people together. So I asked my mom why she left him, and she told me "We grew apart. He was never home. He never treated me poorly, or did anything wrong to my knowledge, the man I married and who left home on weeks on end, wasn't the same man who came home twenty years later..." I think she was really, really, really depressed and sad about it for a long time.

So learning the lesson from my parents divorce, I've tried my hardest to integrate the four major virtues my dad held dear to him, coupling that with being at my misses's side as much as humanly possible...

[IrishArmenian]

Divorce is fine in some situations. Now, I don't like the 1/2 statistic, but sometimes people realise what a terrible person their spouse is. Now, I don't advocate divorce, I don't like it and it screws up kids but it is a necessary evil.

[Watchman]

What's also interesting is that marriage seems to exist almost everywhere, there are marriage rituals in african tribes, hawaiian marriage rituals etc. I'm not an expert and may be wrong, but doesn't that indicate that marriage is not a cultural thing but rather something ingrained in human nature?:dizzy2:
No.

[doc_bean]

waking up to a woman is good enough for me. im sure most husbands would find their wives very attractive; the hottest woman ever. you should imo. i agree with you totally right there, and of course no one is perfect.

Okay, I didn't want to attack you or anything, but I know quite a few people who have set the bar for a partner way too high in the past and are lonely twenty somethings with little to no experience with relationships, that's not a good start for a new one either.

I know you're still young, don't fall into the same trap. Also, as the older Orgah's have pointed out, the sex and hotness is not the most important thing, at least not after the initial buzz fades. Personality matters in the long run.



My Father-in-law, a man I have come to admire as much as my own father, passed this on to me: "After awhile, you'll come around to the thinkin' that Sex is the most highly over-rated thing in the world, while the most under-rated is a good healthy dump"-J. Massey.

I feel like I'm way to young to agree with that, but, he has a good point.

[Husar]

:dizzy2:
No.
After thinking about it again, I have to say you're right.

[Whacker]

After thinking about it again, I have to say you're right.

That's kinda what I'm leaning towards as well. Promiscuity is a natural tendency in most of our nearest cousins in the ape species.

[HoreTore]

Promiscuity is fun. Period.

[KukriKhan]

I remember the 1970's arguments between 'hairy-legged feminists' and 'male chauvenist pigs', each side asserting that marriage and divorce were un-natural atrocities perpetrated by one gender upon the other, sanctioned by a government and religious community that was terribly backward-thinking (so they said, in the US).

If matrimony and divorce are un-natural, there yet seems to be strong evidence that semi-long man-woman relationships are nevertheless desired by many humans, as witness the proliferation of such agreements (as Husar pointed out) among all people of the 1st, 2nd & 3rd worlds.

It looks like we strongly desire (if not instinctively desire) to connect, and to stay connected, for at least months, if not years or decades.

The issue seems to be how involved we want society, at learge, to be involved.

[Watchman]

We are pack animals after all. Humans tend to start going screwy in isolation.

[Slyspy]

I suspect that many marriages are ended out of ignorance, laziness, weakness and/or selfishness.

I suspect that too many marriages are made because of these traits!

[Sasaki Kojiro]

What's also interesting is that marriage seems to exist almost everywhere, there are marriage rituals in african tribes, hawaiian marriage rituals etc. I'm not an expert and may be wrong, but doesn't that indicate that marriage is not a cultural thing but rather something ingrained in human nature?

Yes. There's a biological basis for long term relationships.

[rotorgun]

I can't believe that this thread has engendered such a deep and rewarding discussion here in the backroom. I have'nt been able to keep tabs on it post to post, but have enjoyed browsing along every few days. I am glad to see so many seem to be rather more infavor of the institution than not. IMHO, marriage is the most natural and reasonably successful way to raise a family; althogh many couples remain happily married who have never had children. It is not for the timid and too many enter into it lightly, and then are surprised when it fails.

Speaking of timidity, my wife informed me some years ago (probably during an argument), that the reason more women file for divorce proceedings, is that the majority of men are, well rather cowardly to be the one to initiate the break-up. Wether it is fear of the consequences, or not wanting to be the one to "let go" remains to be decided, but let's face it fellas, the ladies do have quite a hold on us. Speaking for myself, there were many times when one of these two reasons kept me from making what would probably been a big mistake. It does take courage to leave, and that's the rub.

[ShadeHonestus]

There was a study done some years ago (late 90's is when I saw it published) which elaborated on earlier differences in the sexes and how they, across all cultures surveyed, address relationships. The analogy of the pie versus the building blocks Psychologically a relationship (talking committed relationships, attaining commitment is another study) to a woman is a piece of the pie while for a man it is the foundation upon which he builds. A woman can more easily interchange pie pieces to make her whole emotionally while a man generally must go through a collapse cycle. One of the results of this is women being more opportunistic materially when assessing relationships. In a society like the U.S. which embraces divorce we see the result.

[KukriKhan]

...to a woman is a piece of the pie while for a man it is the foundation upon which he builds. A woman can more easily interchange pie pieces to make her whole emotionally while a man generally must go through a collapse cycle...

Having gone through a couple of those 'collapse cycles' while my ex-mates subsequently mixed-and-matched their next partners, I can attest anecdotally to the feasibility of this theory.

I'd be interested in reviewing that material, should you ever come across it again, S.Honestus. :bow:

[AntiochusIII]

Well, when you really really look into it the concept of marriage does change very much with time.

It was quite a social tool back in the day. Obviously the more rigidly social the whole deal is the less likely things like divorce would happen. Nowadays marriage for love is, I [hope?], far more common than marriage to improve your social status/money/with Paris Hilton or whatever. Mr. Darcy no longer needs to be a filthy rich billionaire to make Ms. Lizzy Bennet's decision "proper."

That and the trend that Love more and more supersedes matrimony as the thing that sustains marriage and things are less on...firm grounds.

Considering Love's notoriously well-acknowledged quality of being ridiculously frivolous, the divorce rate is not altogether surprising.

***************

But really, why aren't anyone blaming American Girls tm and the stereotype of Miss I-Have-OCD-ADD-And-Psychological-Problems-Addendum yet? After all aren't girls the ones who indirectly press the men to give that marriage proposal half the time at least? :beam:

[Ja'chyra]

Divorce is the decision of the two parties involved and absolutely nothing to do with anyone else.

This is one of the areas that people should stop trying to interfere with others lives, it's nothing to do with you so just move along.