Deal Struck on Immigration Bill

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Say it aint so :help:


WASHINGTON (AP) - A bipartisan group of senators reached agreement with the White House Thursday on an immigration overhaul to grant quick legal status to millions of illegal immigrants already in the U.S. and fortify the border against new ones.
One of the key negotiators, Sen. Edward M. Kennedy, D-Mass., said he expects President Bush to endorse it.

The deal came after weeks of painstaking closed-door negotiations that brought the most liberal Democrats and the most conservative Republicans together with Bush's Cabinet officers to produce a highly complex measure that carries heavy political consequences.

It set the stage for what promises to be a bruising battle next week in the Senate on one of Bush's top non-war priorities.

This is a breaking news update. Check back soon for further information. AP's earlier story is below


Linky (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8P68N7G0&show_article=1)

[Watchman]

:coffeenews:
Oh. Capital. Seems basically sensible enough. Is that why you've got your undies so twisted up over it ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yeah lets reward people for breaking the law. And if I were a legal immigrant Id be even more pissed.

[Watchman]

So ? You haven't been able to get rid of them anyway, so might as well make a virtue out of necessity and turn them into proper citizens or something that you can tax. Probably helps finding the unscrupulous native buggers who'd rather use cheap illegal immigrant labor than pay proper taxes and wages, too - two flies with one blow, no ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

So ? You haven't been able to get rid of them anyway, so might as well make a virtue out of necessity and turn them into proper citizens or something that you can tax

Good then you will join me in legalising all drugs including crack :laugh4: Lets do that with all crimes. Thats where the flat tax comes in :beam:

[Ice]

Good then you will join me in legalising all drugs including crack :laugh4: Lets do that with all crimes. Thats where the flat tax comes in :beam:

These are people not drugs. I'm perfectly happy with the bill. If it was up to me, I'd make immigration standards even more lax then they are currently are. America is a nation of immigrants. Besides, making them legal always them to be taxed and be accounted for. We actually know who's in our country. They aren't just going to disappear.

[TevashSzat]

Politicians aren't doing so because they want the US to be more open to immigrants, they are only doing so because they are too lazy or afraid to tackle a big problem. There are tens of thousands of Iraqi citizens trying to get into the US or any western country, but are continuously rejected. They are those who helped the US army but now feel threatened because they are marked by a target and could be easily targetted by terrorist groups.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

These are people not drugs.

Their criminals. They also are not necessities as you suggest. What it boils down to is that republicans let it happen because the big corporations want cheap labor and the democrats let it happen because most of these people will vote for them. The fact is if these jobs paid a decent wage americans would gladly do them. And no the price of everything wouldnt go up or at least not much as we wouldnt be supporting all these illegals and their children.

[Devastatin Dave]

Reading this thread has me craving some Taco Bell. Anybody like the chilli cheese burrito? I'm gonna get me two of those and a Mexican Pizza. Well, atleast one thing has been positive about this legislation; I realised what I've been craving the past few minutes. Grassynuts all those who have contributed to this thread, grassynuts!!!:laugh4:

[KafirChobee]

Their criminals. They also are not necessities as you suggest. What it boils down to is that republicans let it happen because the big corporations want cheap labor and the democrats let it happen because most of these people will vote for them. The fact is if these jobs paid a decent wage americans would gladly do them. And no the price of everything wouldnt go up or at least not much as we wouldnt be supporting all these illegals and their children.
"....the dems let it happen because most of these people will vote for them."
Er, illegals have the right to vote? Pay taxes, yes - vote, no.

As for Americans picking strawberries, asparagus, oranges, etc. for any amount of money, or Americans being willing to pay higher prices? You jest? Ask any farmer how long an average american lasts - if they hire on - a day, at best. Consider the farm subsidies paid to maintain low prices. We need these people - illegal or no.

Thing is, if our immigration laws weren't so antiquated and biased, our bureaucracy so overwhelmed by their own self importance - these illegals could have been legal. It is time for major immigration reforms, any reform that is non-persecutorial will be welcome.

[Yun Dog]

Say it aint so :help:



Linky (http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D8P68N7G0&show_article=1)


smart move

there may yet be hope

[Xiahou]

Their criminals. They also are not necessities as you suggest. What it boils down to is that republicans let it happen because the big corporations want cheap labor and the democrats let it happen because most of these people will vote for them. The fact is if these jobs paid a decent wage americans would gladly do them. And no the price of everything wouldnt go up or at least not much as we wouldnt be supporting all these illegals and their children.
True dat.

All that happens under the current system is the taxpayers are subsidizing the businesses that employ illegals. They'll still get healthcare, education and other benefits- it's just that the costs are pushed onto the taxpayers instead of the employers as it should be. The only good thing in this bill is the border enforcement trigger. However, I suspect that could easily be waived off once the law is passed.


If it was up to me, I'd make immigration standards even more lax then they are currently are. America is a nation of immigrants.:no:
Right now we have a labor market that's very favorable to the workers. If you don't like your job or pay, chances are good that you can you can find a different better job. You're proposing that we take the lid off of the supply of the labor market. What do you think that does to your ability to find a job that you like that actually pays?

All of these bills are so completely wrong-headed to me. They have to travel back to their country of origin, but have a guaranteed right of return- what's the point of that? Then there are two year visas that are renewable, but only after the worker goes home for a year. What happens when they don't go?

Further, the whole process stinks of elitism to me. We're just letting "peasants" into our country to work for what's obviously little more than a slave wage (since no actual citizens will do the work for that money) and then we expect them to go home again once the work is done. Look, if we need more workers, let them immigrate- legally. None of this work for a pittance and go home crap either. Immigration with the intent of citizenship. Do it in a controlled, impartial and legal fashion with the intent of increasing the workforce if that's what we need. Indentured servitude is offensive to me.

[Ice]

Their criminals. They also are not necessities as you suggest. What it boils down to is that republicans let it happen because the big corporations want cheap labor and the democrats let it happen because most of these people will vote for them. The fact is if these jobs paid a decent wage americans would gladly do them. And no the price of everything wouldnt go up or at least not much as we wouldnt be supporting all these illegals and their children.

They are tolerable criminals. I'd rather be a criminal in one country rather than starve to death in a another one.

Where did I say we needed them? I'm say that this country is built upon immigrants and we should continue that long held tradition. They do help us though.

Thank you also for that through analysis on the economic conditions of illegal immigrants. Very scientific. It is contrary to the mainstream claims and you give absolutely no fact to back it up. Brilliant. By the way. Prices would go up greatly if you are paying someone 12 dollars an hour to pick cherries rather than 5 bucks an hour.

I really don't understand why people are so scared of letting these people in our country. It makes sense they want to escape their crap hole of a life in Mexico and we should welcome them for moral and economic reasons.

[Ice]

Right now we have a labor market that's very favorable to the workers. If you don't like your job or pay, chances are good that you can you can find a different better job. You're proposing that we take the lid off of the supply of the labor market. What do you think that does to your ability to find a job that you like that actually pays?


Absolutely Yes. First, it greatly drives down prices. I don't know about you, but I enjoy low prices.

Second, the jobs these people are taking are crap jobs. This goes back to the old "Dem der immigrants tok my j0b".

[Ice]

True dat.

Further, the whole process stinks of elitism to me. We're just letting "peasants" into our country to work for what's obviously little more than a slave wage (since no actual citizens will do the work for that money) and then we expect them to go home again once the work is done. Look, if we need more workers, let them immigrate- legally. None of this work for a pittance and go home crap either. Immigration with the intent of citizenship. Do it in a controlled, impartial and legal fashion with the intent of increasing the workforce if that's what we need. Indentured servitude is offensive to me.

No one says these immigrants have to work for slave labor. They will have the opportunity every lower class family has in this country.

Many are simply willing to work for this labor though because their standard of living will be greatly enhanced over where they came from.

[Watchman]

Good then you will join me in legalising all drugs including crack :laugh4:Sure, why not ? Pulls the rug under the drug syndicates if nothing else, when their insanely value-added main product is suddenly available legally at a fraction of the old price...

[Redleg]

The only problem with amensty is that it does not address the issue. This particlur course has been tried before.

Until immigrantion laws are reformed and more importantly enforced by all law enforcement agencies - amensty will continue to be the only way to address the citizenship of the illegal immigrants, its a very short term fix for a long term problem, so it really solves nothing.

I think that the amensty is not a big deal if the government follows through on the reform portion of the deal. The big question is how are they going to address the illegal immigrants that do not register for the amensty?

I am willing to bet its the same thing as what happened in the past.

[Odin]

I'm with Gwain on this one fella's. Criminals shouldnt be rewarded, exsisting laws should be enforced and slowly start shipping people back to thier country of origin. Let them legalize like the generations before.

I do disagree with Gwain on one point, it wasnt the Dems exclusively mate, Mr Bush has signed on as well, this is a pro business move the way it read to me, and all politicians like thier cash.

this is disgraceful.

[Pindar]

The amazing element to this is McCain. This is Presidential aspiration suicide for the fellow. His active support demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between himself and the core of the Party. It is this core that is most influential during the Party's Primary process.

[Odin]

The amazing element to this is McCain. This is Presidential aspiration suicide for the fellow. His active support demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between himself and the core of the Party. It is this core that is most influential during the Party's Primary process.

Nice observation Pindar...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I do disagree with Gwain on one point, it wasnt the Dems exclusively mate, Mr Bush has signed on as well, this is a pro business move the way it read to me, and all politicians like their cash.

I said the republicans are just as much to blame as they let them in for the corporate welfare end of it.


They are tolerable criminals. I'd rather be a criminal in one country rather than starve to death in a another one.

Whats tolerable? Good it be subjective?


Where did I say we needed them?

Maybe in your language nessecity has a different meaning.:inquisitive:


I'm say that this country is built upon immigrants and we should continue that long held tradition.

I doubt you will get an argument from anyone here on that. As long as you specify its built on legal ones not illegal. Nice try at an end run though.


Many are simply willing to work for this labor though because their standard of living will be greatly enhanced over where they came from.

You mean like many are willing to rob stores because their standard of living will be greatly enhanced over where they came from? That makes it ok. Any one whos poor can disobey the law? Heck I dont even favor that for our poor never mind illegals who sneak in here.


Sure, why not ? Pulls the rug under the drug syndicates if nothing else, when their insanely value-added main product is suddenly available legally at a fraction of the old price...

At least we can agree on somethings :2thumbsup:

[rotorgun]

I don't think that many of the "illegals" really want to become citizens. With the low wages they make, they would be on the bottom of the economic ladder in this country. With such earnings that an 8-10 dollar-an-hour job provide, there is little chance that any with a family could really afford to live well enough in this country. These wages, husbanded and sent home by a thrifty worker to his family in Mexico, allow for a substantial quality of life there. For those who are using these jobs as a springboard to something better, it is possible that an offer of citizenship will be attractive.

As for those who are true criminals and are here, legally or not, I say process them and ship them out. These people (and any terrorists) are a danger to us, and for that reason alone I am for much increased border security. I am for the comprimise only if these issues are dealt with in the bill. Let's move on to something more productive, like ending the killing in Iraq and Afghanistan.

[Don Corleone]

The amazing element to this is McCain. This is Presidential aspiration suicide for the fellow. His active support demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between himself and the core of the Party. It is this core that is most influential during the Party's Primary process.

I suspect he realizes he's not going to get the Republican nomination. He's not conservative enough on a bunch of issues, and in many ways, he's more of a tax-and-spend Big-Brother than most Democrats. I believe this is the unofficial launch of his effort to successfully mount a 3rd party campaign.

For the record, I am now convinced that at the core party level, there is no difference between Republicans and Democrats. I always suspected they were more alike than different, but this issue cuts to core values. Republicans, at the end of the day, are about 2 things: limited government (anybody check the cost of Medicaid Part D lately) and law-and-order. With this bill, they've now effectively surrendered any distinction.

We actually need a 3rd party, but that whack job dictator-wanna-be is far from the 3rd party I have in mind.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I suspect he realizes he's not going to get the Republican nomination. He's not conservative enough on a bunch of issues, and in many ways, he's more of a tax-and-spend Big-Brother than most Democrats. I believe this is the unofficial launch of his effort to successfully mount a 3rd party campaign.

Now this is where things get scary. This is the Dems only shot at winning the presidency. Gah Hillary as president. What a horrible thought.

http://t3.images.live.com/images/thumbnail.aspx?q=1138453398294&id=2f492d7b082bebe1629c025c74ae2192

[Ice]

Whats tolerable? Good it be subjective?

What? To answer your first question, escaping poverty for a better life is tolerable.




Maybe in your language nessecity has a different meaning.:inquisitive:

My language? We are both speaking English. Now if you mean, word choice, lexicon, or dictionary, than I'll agree.



I doubt you will get an argument from anyone here on that. As long as you specify its built on legal ones not illegal. Nice try at an end run though.


Haha.


You mean like many are willing to rob stores because their standard of living will be greatly enhanced over where they came from? That makes it ok. Any one whos poor can disobey the law? Heck I dont even favor that for our poor never mind illegals who sneak in here.

You are equating armed robbery with trying to immigrate to a country illegally to escape poverty.

[ShadeHonestus]

The amazing element to this is McCain. This is Presidential aspiration suicide for the fellow. His active support demonstrates a fundamental disconnect between himself and the core of the Party. It is this core that is most influential during the Party's Primary process.

The telling element to this is the illegal immigrants protesting. Rinse and repeat, we'll be right back where we are at now in 10 years. The question being how many will we legalize en masse then?

[Xiahou]

I suspect he realizes he's not going to get the Republican nomination. He's not conservative enough on a bunch of issues, and in many ways, he's more of a tax-and-spend Big-Brother than most Democrats. I believe this is the unofficial launch of his effort to successfully mount a 3rd party campaign.McCain's explosive temper worries me as much as his anti-free speech track record. He definitely doesn't need to be president.


During a meeting Thursday on immigration legislation, McCain and Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) got into a shouting match when Cornyn started voicing concerns about the number of judicial appeals that illegal immigrants could receive, according to multiple sources -- both Democrats and Republicans -- who heard firsthand accounts of the exchange from lawmakers who were in the room.

At a bipartisan gathering in an ornate meeting room just off the Senate floor, McCain complained that Cornyn was raising petty objections to a compromise plan being worked out between Senate Republicans and Democrats and the White House. He used a curse word associated with chickens and accused Cornyn of raising the issue just to torpedo a deal.

Things got really heated when Cornyn accused McCain of being too busy campaigning for president to take part in the negotiations, which have gone on for months behind closed doors. "Wait a second here," Cornyn said to McCain. "I've been sitting in here for all of these negotiations and you just parachute in here on the last day. You're out of line."

McCain, a former Navy pilot, then used language more accustomed to sailors (not to mention the current vice president, who made news a few years back after a verbal encounter with Sen. Patrick Leahy of Vermont).

"[Expletive] you! I know more about this than anyone else in the room," shouted McCain at Cornyn. McCain helped craft a bill in 2006 that passed the Senate but couldn't be compromised with a House bill that was much tougher on illegal immigrants.

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/capitol-briefing/2007/05/mccain_cornyn_cursing_showdown.html

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

It's over, America, we had a good run.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

What? To answer your first question, escaping poverty for a better life is tolerable.

Entering my country to do it is not. Should we take in all the poor of the world?


ou are equating armed robbery with trying to immigrate to a country illegally to escape poverty.

Armed robbery? How about just going into a store and taking stuff on the sly? The point is their trying to accomplish the samething. Feed themselves and their families and make a better life for themselves. I find these people more tolerable than your illegal immigrants. At least their americans. So yes tolerable is subjective.

[ShadeHonestus]

Entering my country to do it is not. Should we take in all the poor of the world?

Word on the street is that Ireland is the place to be, lets give them free boat passage there and see how the Irish deal with it. Isn't any place in Europe suppose to be a Utopia compared to the U.S.? I've actually heard innuendo on this very board that pre-war Iraq wasn't so bad, lets get a time machine and ship them all there, I'm sure they'd accept those theories and go willingly.

Surprised Mencia hasn't picked up on this yet.

[Watchman]

You do know we get a whole lot of illegals here too, do you ? Especially in the countries bordering on the poor countries, like now Spain and Portugal ?

Or are you just trying for martyr points ?

[ShadeHonestus]

Just trying to help boost your population stats and especially those in the countries north of the med.

[Ice]

Entering my country to do it is not. Should we take in all the poor of the world?

I believe you mean "our" country. Anyway, I'm not saying we should take on the poor of the world. A couple million immigrants is hardly the world's poor. Besides, there are numerous advantages to Americans by gaining cheap labor, at least for a while.



Armed robbery? How about just going into a store and taking stuff on the sly?

If you are starving to death and have no other way, then yes. That is very tolerable.


I find these people more tolerable than your illegal immigrants. At least their americans. So yes tolerable is subjective.


First, I'm failing to see how these are my illegal immigrants. Your language in your posts is most interesting. Second, who cares if they are not Americans?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I believe you mean "our" country.

It was mine first. :laugh4:


A couple million immigrants is hardly the world's poor.

Where does it stop. Why have immigration laws at all then? What makes Mexicans special?


If you are starving to death and have no other way, then yes. That is very tolerable.

So we should reward thieves? We shouldnt punish them if caught stealing?



First, I'm failing to see how these are my illegal immigrants

Because you want them and I dont. That makes them yours.


Second, who cares if they are not Americans?

So your in favor of open borders?

[Ice]

Where does it stop. Why have immigration laws at all then? What makes Mexicans special?

Our current immigration laws, in my opinion, are much to strict. Looser laws are needed.


So we should reward thieves? We shouldnt punish them if caught stealing?

You're twisting my words. In a few circumstances, we should not punish theives for stealing if the situation is dire enough.




Because you want them and I dont. That makes them yours.


They don't belong to me. I'm still failing to see how they are mine. I don't own them.



So your in favor of open borders?

No, not completely open, more open.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Our current immigration laws, in my opinion, are much to strict. Looser laws are needed.

Thank god your in the vast miniority.


You're twisting my words. In a few circumstances, we should not punish theives for stealing if the situation is dire enough.


No Im using your words against you. :laugh4: Most theives steal to survive so lets make stealing legal. At least if its only a misdemeanor right?


They don't belong to me. I'm still failing to see how they are mine. I don't own them.

Who said you own them. Do you want them here or not? If you do then take some damn responsibility man.



No, not completely open, more open.

Again your pretty much alone in these feelings.


Oh I just noticed your in that liberal cesspool called college. No Wonder Dont worry , you will grow out of it. :)

[Ice]

Thank god your in the vast miniority.


Yeah, thank god. If being rational about an issue puts me in the minority, which I doubt I actually am, but I'll humor you anyway, then I'm more than happy with my current position.


No Im using your words against you. :laugh4: Most theives steal to survive so lets make stealing legal. At least if its only a misdemeanor right?


Again, I'd like proof to back that up, but I'll assume you are correct. The difference is, there are other opinions for them other than stealing. Like I said sometimes, it is a last resort and is understandable, most times it is not. Immigrants from Mexico are most likely exercising their last resort. There is little room for betterment where they come from.



Who said you own them. Do you want them here or not? If you do then take some damn responsibility man.


... I don't really want them or not want them. I'm ok with them staying here. All I'm trying to say is that the words "your immigrants" shouldn't be attached to me.



Again your pretty much alone in these feelings.

I somehow doubt that. Now who's trying to at an end run.



Oh I just noticed your in that liberal cesspool called college. No Wonder Dont worry , you will grow out of it. :)


Of this is too funny. First, I'm not a liberal. I'm would be classified as a moderate. For example, I'm in favor of low taxes and gun rights to citizens. I am also for abortion rights and looser immigration. Not really along party lines, now is it?

Second, I'm a finance major in the business school which is probably one of the most conservative majors you can possibly have where I go to college.

I have an idea for you though. Maybe you should actually get the know the person before classifying them based on a single issue. :idea2:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Yeah, thank god. If being rational about an issue puts me in the minority, which I doubt I actually am, but I'll humor you anyway, then I'm more than happy with my current position.

Its one of the few issues conservatives and liberals agree on. At least private citizens. So yes you are in the VAST minority. Just what we need is more uneducated poor people lol. And what would you do with all those stupid idiots who are waiting in line to enter the country legally? What stupid jerks they are aye?


. The difference is, there are other opinions for them other than stealing. Like I said sometimes, it is a last resort and is understandable, most times it is not.

I think you man another reason. Most thefts here are shop lifters. They steal to eat for the most part and pay their rent. Many of the illegals are criminals from other countries


.. I don't really want them or not want them. I'm ok with them staying here. All I'm trying to say is that the words "your immigrants" shouldn't be attached to me.


Sorry your stuck with them now :laugh4:



I somehow doubt that. Now who's trying to at an end run.

Next you will claim most americans favor gay marriage LOL.


Of this is too funny. First, I'm not a liberal. I'm would be classified as a moderate. For example, I'm in favor of low taxes and gun rights to citizens. I am also for abortion rights and looser immigration. Not really along party lines, now is it?

So you make sense on two issues. You will have to do better than that. :yes:

Few here follow party lines. I certainly dont. Im in favor of legal drugs. And I mean all drugs. Same for prostitution. But I dont consider myself anything but an arch conservative. I guess in your enviorment tho you may even be considered a conservative:2thumbsup:

[Ice]

Its one of the few issues conservatives and liberals agree on. At least private citizens. So yes you are in the VAST minority. Just what we need is more uneducated poor people lol. And what would you do with all those stupid idiots who are waiting in line to enter the country legally? What stupid jerks they are aye?


If liberals and conservatives agree, why did they compromise on a bill letting most illegals stay in country.

Who says they need to stay uneducated and poor? The land of opportunity?

That's a shame they waited legally to enter the country, but the ones here still deserve to be here. Besides, that doesn't really answer the question of how you would get rid of all the illegals if you wanted to.


I think you man another reason. Most thefts here are shop lifters. They steal to eat for the most part and pay their rent. Many of the illegals are criminals from other countries

:laugh4: That's great. So now illegal immigrants are thieves in their native countries.


Sorry your stuck with them now :laugh4:

Eh?



Next you will claim most americans favor gay marriage LOL.

I wouldn't claim that. That doesn't really make it correct though.


So you make sense on two issues. You will have to do better than that. :yes:

Again, that's too funny. Anyone who disagrees with you doesn't make sense. Good stuff.


I guess in your enviorment tho you may even be considered a conservative:2thumbsup:


The stereotyping is amazing. I have plenty of conservative friends in college. My roommate was a hardcore conservative catholic. I'm hardly very conservative at all.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If liberals and conservatives agree, why did they compromise on a bill letting most illegals stay in country.


I explained that long ago. These are politicians not regular people. Its one of those cases where the government does not reflect the will of the people. Like abortion.


Who says they need to stay uneducated and poor? The land of opportunity?


Did I say stay? And who will pay for their education?


That's a shame they waited legally to enter the country, but the ones here still deserve to be here

No their not here the stupid :daisy: are still wating LOL. Why do those who snuck in here deserve to be here?


That's great. So now illegal immigrants are thieves in their native countries.


I didnt say that. I didnt even say they were thieves here. But chect the statistics sometime before you start opning your mouth. You do you have an idea of what percentage these people make up in our prison systems and what it costs american taxpayers every year? They dont go through any vetting procedure remember? If you were a wanted criminal in Mexico where would you go?


The stereotyping is amazing. I have plenty of conservative friends in college. My roommate was a hardcore conservative catholic. I'm hardly very conservative at all.

It seems sarcasm is lost on you. I dont think your conservative at all and I said so from the start.

[Ice]

I explained that long ago. These are politicians not regular people. Its one of those cases where the government does not reflect the will of the people. Like abortion.

Our government isn't set up to be governed by mob rule. It's fine how it is.



Did I say stay? And who will pay for their education?

Who pays for anyone's education? They will recieve free public school like everyone else. They can find money for college education just like any other lower class family.


No their not here the stupid :daisy: are still wating LOL. Why do those who snuck in here deserve to be here?


The illegals and legals all deserve to be here. That's why I'd more granting amnesty and easing our restrictions of obtaining US citizenship.


I didnt say that. I didnt even say they were thieves here.


You're right, you didn't say they were thieves here. I never said you did. You said that many were thieves in their native countries.


But chect the statistics sometime before you start opning your mouth. You do you have an idea of what percentage these people make up in our prison systems and what it costs american taxpayers every year?

No I don't know the stats actually. Before opening your large mouth though, why don't you post some. :yes:


They dont go through any vetting procedure remember? If you were a wanted criminal in Mexico where would you go?


Another reason to give them citizenship. They can be illegal here and off the books, or we could keep track of them, easing in the return of fugitives to Mexico.


It seems sarcasm is lost on you. I dont think your conservative at all and I said so from the start.

Well, let's see. You said college is a liberal cease pool. You liked my conservative viewpoints on gun control and low taxes. You then said I would probably be considered a conservative in my environment most likely (I'm assuming) because I hold a few right views. Yeah, sorry for not picking up on your "sarcasm".

[Hepcat]

I have a very simple view on immigration (maybe because I'm a very simple person :beam:)

Generally people don't leave their country unless they have a reason to leave, generally people don't go to your country unless they think it's better than the place they are leaving.

Now to me, denying them isn't very nice.

Even here we have people saying "Stop the refugees from coming here! Stop immigration!" but to me this just seems stupid.

Once upon a time governments lied and bent the truth to convince people to come here of their own free will, the same with the USA too I think.

Now they are doing the opposite and trying to deter people from coming. Making it difficuilt for people to immigrate won't stop criminals coming.

I hope to live and work in several countries before I expire so I believe that people should be able to live in what countries they want.

So yeah, that's my 10 cents worth. Whether it actually makes any sense, I don't know.

[Zaknafien]

This bill is nothing resembling 'amnesty' for illegal aliens. It is a ploy designed to oppress the migrant worker and satisfy the ranks of americans who will not look into the law because they don't care. What this bill does is create a group of second-class citizens who will continue to be exploited by employers for gain. It changes the entire structure of the immigration system from a family reunification system to one favoring english speaking educated workers from mostly european countries, taking away a citizen and permanent resident's right to petition for their family members. It will, on average, require around 13 years for an illegal alien to achieve citizenship, and at the same time has provisions to fund the imprisonment of 27,000 people per day--that is, in other words, the plan to round up tens of thousands of undocumented workers and presumably house them in large holding facilities that might best be called internment camps until they can be filtered out of the country for a "eventual" re-entry.

The citizens, under current law, can petition for their sons and daughters, married or unmarried, as well as people who are lawful permanent residents. This proposal eliminates those family preferences and undercuts a family reunification policy as the cornerstone, replaces it, in effect, with a flow of immigrant workers in the future -- 600,000 per year -- which would be people who would be part of a new underclass, people who would have less rights, less protections, would be subjected to downgrading wages and working conditions and another bracero program, similar to the ones in the ’40s, ’50s and ’60s that was characterized as legalized slavery by Lee Williams, who was head of the Department of Labor at the time when this program was terminate

[Don Corleone]

Give it up Zak. You're right about it ending preferential treatment for families (which will end the practice of sneaking across the border to give birth) but the rest of your rubbish is so far out of line, it's funny. All of the 12 million illegal immigrants presently in the country will be granted a path to citizenship. Sure, the law claims they'll have to pay a fine, but one or two 60 Minutes exposes on the hardships that imposes , and that's gone too. If that's not amnesty, I don't know what is.

That being said, rather than whistling in the dark (i.e. posting on a gaming forum), if you're really upset about it, call your two senators and tell them what you think. If you happen to live in New Hampshire, that would be the Honorable Senators Judd and Sunnunu. PM me for their Manchester office numbers.