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KafirChobee
05-19-2007, 10:42
It is my belief that those that are entrenched in the belief that there is still a victory to be sought in Iraq, have either never attended a burial detail - or they continue to justify it because the loss a the soldier (marine, sailor, airman) is simply their patriotic duty, and ergo ... justified. Entrenchment for the loss, or entrenchment out of ????? entrenchment.

Personally, I, was a Sgt in charge and/or a rifleman (honor squad) on more than a few occasions (68'-69). The first one was for a Col. and a Capt. (seems they were both from New Orleans and died in the same copter - in S.A., accident of course). My C.O. was the attending officer - told me the wife of the Capt. was in the process of divorcing him (Cap was single and from Lousyana and hot as h__ over the widow - can't much blame him, she was hot - he wanted my advise ... rediculous as it seems, for some obscure reason I was thought to be knowledgeable about women because of my time in Korea ... you figure it out, whores mean knoelrdge?). Thing is Cap made us (honor guard) practice for like 3 hours (in N.O. - buncha Yankees biting at the bit to hit the bars on Bourbon Street) to get presenting our rifles correctly. One thing stuck - we were using M-14's btw - "if you can't pull the slide back ... fake it ... stay is synce. If it jams, it is more important for you to stay in uniscyne than firing the shot. Got that?" And, we did. So well, that after a few duties (burials) we were being asked to do the military honors for Marines. The Marines got to carry the body, we fired the salute.

Point is, I was inclined to attend more military funerals than I cared to. Most were treated almost like free money - we got paid extra perdium (gravy - away mission extras; motel, eats ... any dime was a dime for some). Weird as it sounds, people were volunteering to do it - for the extra $bucks$ - of course. I was a Sgt. making $312 a month clear (net). So why not?

Thing is, I had already seen men under tarps (or in body bags). At first it was a big deal (then ... no biggy), and then it became a matter that we were burying men (boys mostly) and so what - better he, than me. Men that deserved all the respect deserved their sacrifice (whether willing, or not of "LBJ or RMN" patriotism), men that may or may not have believed in the "plan", but believed in the nation. They gave it up for the nation. They gave up their own beliefs, for the beliefs of the President(s) that commanded their services, and did so out a belief in patriotism - a belief that Americs would remain the 1960 America they left. They may not have all gone willingly, but they are in the "WALL" regardless (and now all = a political message, of those in control of the wall).

It is a difficult thing to seperate patriotism from accepting the propagated line some times, but those that have experienced one or the other ought to be. Thing is, to not question = admitting they died for nothing more than the misconceptions of someone supposedly within their control (as in vote).

Most don't grasp the individual that perished, as much as their own ideology of the war they support. Again, attend a funeral and justify it. Without using the BS that created the situation, one ought to be able to justify their reason, without using patriotism as a reason.

In my experience ,we buried a man in a field he bought before he died in 'nam. We buried a man that was the only son - did have 5 sisters, and a father made of glass. We buried a blackman that was days from deros and weighed 280 pounds, thats Mother put him in a solid brass (I kid you not) coffin that as the GIs carrying it decided to join her son - they all but dropped the coffin. Mommy jumped the coffin at the grave.

Even I was given the opportunity to take a body home, closed casket. Lucky me. Try explaining to a Mom why she can't look ar her son .... because what ever is in that box is not the entirety of your son. God forbid that is the last thing a Mom sees as the kid she kissed away booboos. Still, imagine ... hour after hour a Mother begging to see her son, just one last time.

The worst experience, was the most perfect performance of my burial unit (part timers, weekends only - I mean we were Admin and Finance) - I was Sgt of the honor squad. It was for a Marine, and we had been requested by the family (believe it or not, a family can make demands about the burial ... or atleast they could in 1969). The graveyard ceremony was perfect - I mean, no unit in the military could have doen this better (Arlington excluded) ... it was exemplerary. After the shots are fired (and one of the guys did have a jam, that went unnoticed - or so we thought) my men turned in time and marched back slowly to the bus. Once reaching the bus they realised what a perfect performance they had accompished. Ergo, open up the martini glasses and celebrate (draftees, you know?). I was standing in the door of the bus - sorta gleeful about my men's performance, but realizing we had just buried one of the dumb f's (all DIs of the time said only those that didn't pay attention to them - died) when the father approached. I had just enough time to call attention, and shut up the celebration. The father approached not just quietly, but almost scerenly (sp). I recall saying, " Sir"?, and him saying, "that was the best, and the last I have to go to". "Sir?" Last son, had five ... three of my own and two boys I couldn't beat off with a broomstick. Gone now. Don't got ta attend any more of these.. Thank you, thank you, for doing such a good job. Means alot to Mom." [I might mention we had a black guy that blew taps that made me cry every time ... note: this was "white Louisiana and Texas").

Pretty much ended martini time. Woke the draftees up to the fact that the men dying meant something, to someone.

That maybe my point. Personally, i don't believe that one man that has perished under the Bushys means a damn to Bush. Words are easy ("..they'll follow us home"). Actions are meaningful. Atleast, LBJ signed (personally) the regrets to the families.

Thing is, maybe those that agree with this "minor" carnage of our military personnel can find a small realization that the loss of one soldier needs the respect of the man that put them in harmsway. Bush? Bush is just to prideful to attend a funeral. It would be like facing the truth of this debacle.

Fact is, those that are entrangent about supporting "stay the path", either haven't attended a burial ... or are entrenched because of it. It is the most difficult thing, I ever did, to conceed that all my friends that died ... died for something someone else believed in or wanted.

Should there be a military burial detail in your town (city) attend it. Especially, if you agree with the present Bushy policy. It may reinforce your attitude toward the occupation, but maybe it will make you realise the humanity of it. No Mother or Father wants their child to die without a cause. To confess ones child (the effort of 18-21 years) perished because of the ego of a man? Nah, ain't going to happen.

Thing is, a few friends told me about their body guard missions. How the first question from dear old Mom or Pop was "when do I get the check?"

We hear the stats. See the faces (depending on the political slant ... or PBS's "as the names and pictures became available"), and still some don't grasp the futility of it, or accept that the people dying mean something - more than proving a political point (which is all Bush is doing).

Attend a burial. If the first one doesn't change your philosohy of life .... maube the 20th or 50th will. Who knows, unless you think changing your mind is a weakness? Maybe you'll become human. Who knows, anything is possible.

At the folding of the flag, taps begins to play .... those that don't find a tear in their eye, feel a sadness in their heart. A son lost - a son lost. Need one say any more? Except we got a Prez that ignored him?

Grey_Fox
05-19-2007, 12:17
I don't mean to offend, so please don't take this the wrong way, but I think you posted pretty much the exact same thing a year or so ago.

HoreTore
05-19-2007, 12:24
If he did that, then it's a good thing he posted it again.

Bijo
05-19-2007, 14:32
It has given me some perspective. Thanks, Kafir.

ShadeHonestus
05-19-2007, 20:59
Been there and done that too many times.

I do appreciate your personal story. The problem I have with what you wrote is that you assume the president or anyone is oblivious to the losses. By what exactly do you guage the lack of interest you assume against the correct level of emotional detachment. At what point are we to drive our policy by pure emotion. I have and will continue to lose people I served active with in the USMC, but that is their profession. I knew these people and that was why they are there, not to die, but to serve what they believe in while accepting that risk of death. The reward of service for those I knew in the USMC was worth that and accepted. More than once we've talked then and now and none of us believe that the emotions of loss should dictate policy and how or when we are used. There are losses even in non-combat operations. While serving active we lost people in training accidents and there are numerous training accidents each year during different CAX, most of them part of the assumed risk of the training and practically impossible to guarantee against. Do we completely set our training policy to the point where we train only in simulation FPS and bubble wrap...of course not and we don't set our foreign policy, rules of engagement, or combat doctrines to that point either. We are part of the Armed Forces of the United States after all and we serve in that capacity.

edit: gd typos

Louis VI the Fat
05-20-2007, 04:24
I wouldn't know what to post as a reply really. Let me suffice to say I do enjoy your personal experiences / observations / rants, Kafir.

Wait, I do know: war, war casualties, should never be taken lightly. These are real people, they will die. War isn't glamourous, exciting, manly. It is not about abstracts, it is about real people of flesh and blood. They will leave behind loved ones, a mother who needs an explanation of why her son or daughter died.

...Hmm, that is not very eloquently stated, and simply a repeat of Kafir's post. Oh, well...:shame:

KafirChobee
05-22-2007, 08:26
It is true, I have posted these (my) experiences before. At times I have the impulse to reflect on them, the need to expose my old wounds. Especially when it becomes obvious to me that some didn't get it the first time, or the second.

Originally, I published a rendition of my experience to a my Clan (now disfunct - the DreadMasters, if any recall). It was meant as a warning to the Bushys' rhetoric about AlQuaeda=Iraq, WMD=end of USA), etc. My premise was, we as a nation had already been there - Vietnam. It was something we had already done, and the only thing we would get out of it? Was the same thing we had already experienced .... flag draped coffins. And, a quagmire that would be "unpatriotic", "cowardly", and "unAmerican" not to support "the troops" ... or if one didn't simply accept the truths of the President.

Thing is, I saw it at 18 and didn't recognize it for what it was, or accept it - for years. At 22, after the experiences I listed and some I may yet (they still hurt to much to share with strangers without faces), I faced the reality (ies), I came to realize what the deaths of my friends meant. They came to mean = "Never again will we let our sons die in a war without cause, a war without a specific goal, and never ever will we not send them in without overwhelming force."

Well, we allowed it to happen - and we allowed it just 20 years after the "Wall of healing"was built. That's the shame of my generation, that we let our political representatives think we had forgotten - and allow them to do a knee jerk reaction that equated the one after "Tonkin Bay". We got out flanked, we got out thunk, we got out patrioticed, and we forgot about protecting our children (grandchildren) because we were so proud they were serving the nation - even as they began to die for it.

I, wrote (back in 2002 for my clan) that " soon the flag draped coffins would be coming home", to the Mothers and Fathers of those that felt or sought a duty to serve their nation. The coffins draped in the flag of a nation, and the men within them the children of it .... those as parents we were meant to protect, and failed ... because of patriotism. Because of a knee jerk reaction, because .... we forgot how easy we could be fooled.

Sorry. For the true believers. Maybe, it will take a few more people you know to die for you to look at it realistically, or maybe not - it is real hard to accept that a friend died for nothing .. or atleast someone elses idea that lives in a cloud. Then again, that's what made me maintain the acceptance that they died in 'nam and it was all good - heroes for a cause. Heroes, absolutely. But, not for the cause ... but because they gave their all. The reason for their demise matters less than their willingness to risk their lives because it was asked them ... even though it turned out that the cause was wrong. The reason meaningless.

Iraq. Nothing about it was, is, or ever will be right. The waste of our children (and theirs) is unjustified, unwarrented, unneccessary, and totlally needless. What bothers me most is that as a nation we allowed it to happen again so soon after creating a WALL to commerate a 10,000 day fubar that cost us 60,000 lives (+2,000 excluded, because they died in "accidents" ... oops, ran off the road, oops had a traffic accident, oops died in a cafe bombing).

We have become a nation of same :daisy: ... different day. Multipied exponentially by time. We just don't want to be wrong twice, in so little time. Thing is, Americans don't remember last year. let alone 30 years ago. They go to the WALL and think of it as a place of honor, rather than one of rememberence for when we f'ed up and lost our sons. When our nation was wrong about going to war. It is a place of honor, because the men that are on it gave their all not for what they believed, but because their nation asked them to. We were : We the unwilling, led by the unqualified, to do the unthinkable, for the ungrateful. That defined us, some of us just forgot. Or, never accepted the reality of it. Hey! Ain't it great to think you're a hero?

It is, a wonderful thing. You know?

That is the problem. The reality. The reason I keep repeating those worn out burial detail stories of mine. Because, I can't forget - and I don't want anyone else to either. The heroes in war are those defending the man next to them, nothing else - nation doesnot enter into the equation.

PanzerJaeger
05-22-2007, 08:50
It is my belief that those that are entrenched in the belief that there is still a victory to be sought in Iraq, have either never attended a burial detail - or they continue to justify it because the loss a the soldier (marine, sailor, airman) is simply their patriotic duty, and ergo ... justified. Entrenchment for the loss, or entrenchment out of ????? entrenchment.

The death of a soldier is tragic and the consequences to his/her immediate family and friends are equally terrible. However, the loss of this war and the consequences that would have to this nation are dire on a much greater scale.

Xiahou
05-22-2007, 15:52
The death of a soldier is tragic and the consequences to his/her immediate family and friends are equally terrible. However, the loss of this war and the consequences that would have to this nation are dire on a much greater scale.
No one wants to see our soldiers die, but you can't call off a war the first time there's a casualty either. If that's the thinking, we may as well pack it in and disband the military altogether. It'd save a lot of money if we're never going to use it anyway.

Bijo
05-22-2007, 16:13
Kafir, your stories about war and such, how terrible it might've been to you and others, give me some insight into war, and makes me think twice 'fore I voluntarily enter service in here (Netherlands). I will go anyway when I'm done with other stuff 'round here, but I don't think it'll be as hardcore as what the American army's doing.

I don't know what your exact reasons were to fight (though I have an idea), but my reasons for going are: I'm used to pain and suffering and do not know happiness and will probably never achieve it, so I look for more to witness and experience pain and suffering 'cause I'm used to it, to go through a hard test and war's probably then a proper candidate. And ultimately peace is a lie, something that doesn't and will never exist. Most humans are mostly ****** up. So if therefore conflict must always exist let's make it one hell of a conflict on a higher level (war) and hopefully destroy the whole goddamn planet while we're at it.
But that's me. I'm cynical.

Anyway, it's good that you post this stuff.