Full Mongol force vs. Master Japanese Warlords

[NagatsukaShumi]

Here's an interesting topic. IF the Mongols had indeed made it to shore (As in the MI expansion pack) would they be victorious if faced with men like Oda Nobunaga, Toyotomi Hideyoshi, Tokugawa Ieyasu, Takeda Shingen etc?

I will post my thoughts after a few of you have

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

This seems in the wrong forum, maybe it belongs in general discussion?

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Ils sont grands seulement parce que nous sommes à genoux. Alors levons-nous debout!!!

[Gan Ning]

i dont think the mongols would stand very long against the damiyos!!!

[NagatsukaShumi]

Well......I thought seen as the Mongols are part of Medieval i'd post it here (Wasn't the huge Samurai vs Knights in here). you can move it to where you wish Kuma.

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[Hirosito]

i was under the impression that the japanese didn't stand a chance against the failed invasion

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Hirosito]

kuma if you want to move it i suggest history forum (more informed opinions unlike mine)

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

Quote Originally posted by NagatsukaShumi:
Well......I thought seen as the Mongols are part of Medieval i'd post it here (Wasn't the huge Samurai vs Knights in here). you can move it to where you wish Kuma.

[/QUOTE]


OK, i can see your point but just faintly, barely down there in the background. The threas stays. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif



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Ils sont grands seulement parce que nous sommes à genoux. Alors levons-nous debout!!!

[NagatsukaShumi]

*Gives Kuma the bribe* http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[MagyarKhans Cham]

the answer to this is on our mongol site, www.mongols.club.tip.nl (http://www.mongols.club.tip.nl)

[Jaguara]

Good article Magyar.

I have to admit that I was expecting something slanted toward the Mongols, but what I saw seemed to be relatively free of bias. Worth reading.

Jaguara

[Vanya]

If the first invasion was any clue, the Japs would never have stood a chance. They would have died of arrow-overdose long before their katanas ever tasted blood.

[NagatsukaShumi]

I believe if all the clans allied to take the Mongols on they could wipe the floor with them, but if they fought amongst themselves they would be toast

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[Jaguara]

Quote Originally posted by NagatsukaShumi:
I believe if all the clans allied to take the Mongols on they could wipe the floor with them[/QUOTE]

That seems a bit extreme wouldn't you say? I am not exactly a fan of the Mongols, but the concept of anyone "wiping the floor with them" seems a bit hard to concieve. I am not saying that the Japanese would not be victorious, but the cost would not be insignificant.

[NagatsukaShumi]

I didn't mean they'd slaughter them, i meant they'd beat them for sure if they didn't fight

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[Vanya]

Here is Vanya's account of what would have happenned...

[The Mongol army approaches the armies of the united clans of Japan. The Japanese arrange themselves in a ceremonial formation, flags waving in the air...]

[Kensai]: [Alone, he goes out to introduce himself to the Mongols] I am Hideo Masamune, from Fukushima, grand taisho of the armies of Oda... Governor of Totomi... I have taken 1349 heads in battle... I have *aggh!*

[The Kensai falls dead, with 4 arrows in his chest.]

[The next Kensai strides forward to introduce his accolades to the Mongols]

[Kensai 2]: I am *aghh!*

[Kensai 2 also falls to a flurry of arrows.]

[But the Japanese just don't "get" it. All their finest warriors step out alone to honor their own silly traditions of introduction, only to be mowed down one at a time by the Mongols. Then, when all the self-centered, egotistical generals have died satisfying their morbid sense of honor and acheiving their sought-after audience with Buddha, the remaining Japanese panic and flee, for they are led by weak generals that have no combat experience. The Mongols rush in and butcher the fleeing mob. Few survive. Afterwards, the Mongols collect the heads of the dead and build a tall pyramid of skulls... a monument to their deed, and a warning to those who think resistance is anything but futile. And as they marvel in their ghastly public works, the Mongols can be heard laughing about the idiocy of Japanese customs.]

[NagatsukaShumi]

I can here the wind blowing.........

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Give me your heart, and I'll break it.
Give me your virginity and you'll lose it.
Give me your money, and I'll keep it.
http://www.geocities.com/shumiclan//Sengoku6.jpg

[insanecrow]

:lol Vanya

[insanecrow]

lol Vanya

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(STW original... Rules..no shut up ,it does)
"If it moves,kill it"

[insanecrow]

Doh!
I give up making mistakes.

I`m off to IL2 for a shoot-em-up


[This message has been edited by insanecrow (edited 05-15-2002).]

[This message has been edited by insanecrow (edited 05-15-2002).]

[Papewaio]

Quote Originally posted by Vanya:
Here is Vanya's account of what would have happenned...

[The Mongol army approaches the armies of the united clans of Japan. The Japanese arrange themselves in a ceremonial formation, flags waving in the air...]

[Kensai]: [Alone, he goes out to introduce himself to the Mongols] I am Hideo Masamune, from Fukushima, grand taisho of the armies of Oda... Governor of Totomi... I have taken 1349 heads in battle... I have *aggh!*

[The Kensai falls dead, with 4 arrows in his chest.]

[The next Kensai strides forward to introduce his accolades to the Mongols]

[Kensai 2]: I am *aghh!*

[Kensai 2 also falls to a flurry of arrows.]

[But the Japanese just don't "get" it. All their finest warriors step out alone to honor their own silly traditions of introduction, only to be mowed down one at a time by the Mongols. Then, when all the self-centered, egotistical generals have died satisfying their morbid sense of honor and acheiving their sought-after audience with Buddha, the remaining Japanese panic and flee, for they are led by weak generals that have no combat experience. The Mongols rush in and butcher the fleeing mob. Few survive. Afterwards, the Mongols collect the heads of the dead and build a tall pyramid of skulls... a monument to their deed, and a warning to those who think resistance is anything but futile. And as they marvel in their ghastly public works, the Mongols can be heard laughing about the idiocy of Japanese customs.]

[/QUOTE]

This would be the same nice honourable Japanese Daimyos who burned down temples with monks and nuns inside, shot fellow warlords full of arrows as they walked out of their residence, assassinated each other, formed their own special forces of ninja, exume the dead to chop off the heads etc.

I think the mongols would have won through mobility and superior weapons and armour for awhile. But Japan is quite mountainous and the locals fierce mobile defenders so it would have been interesting.

[oZoNeLaYeR]

Let's ask Japanese Government to permit the Mongols to attack Japan. Then we shall see who will win. But No Mass Weapon tho, only sword, arrows, naginata, musket, Arq. etc allowed in the war. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by oZoNeLaYeR (edited 05-16-2002).]

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by Papewaio:
... exume the dead to chop off the heads ... [/QUOTE]

GAH!

That sounds like something Krast would do if he had no heads to cut off!

GAH!

[Dom]

Quote Originally posted by oZoNeLaYeR:
No Mass Weapon tho, only sword, arrows, naginata, musket, Arq. etc allowed in the war. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

[This message has been edited by oZoNeLaYeR (edited 05-16-2002).][/QUOTE]

You forgot a 4 max rule

BTW I do not know much about Japaneese but if you draw a parralel with what Mongols did with Russians for 4 hundred years is gather money from territories but allow them to manage themselves and fight each other for the right to be the chief, who is going to pay annual respects to the Khan. Was there any possibility of this happening in Japan?

Ryurik

[Orda Khan]

The factors about this scenario are many. This Mongol force was less than 50% Mongol. It was mainly Chinese and Korean. It is fair to surmise these were able troops since Qubilai had used them, along with Mongol warriors, to repulse the threat posed by Qaidu. However history shows us time after time that as Empires grow so does the strength diminish. The death of Mangku loosened the Mongol yoke. The internicine struggles would eventually prove to be the mechanism by which it was removed. Japan? Very unlucky for the Mongol army I think but it must be said that while they could not land, they were under constant hit and run type attacks at night by groups of Samurai in small boats. Also the Mongol armies did not fare much better in Java.
The bubble will always burst, that's for sure. What about the question - " what if the Mongol princes were not driven by greed and jealousy, but instead were united in their efforts to impose the will of Chingiz Khan? "
It is these " What If? " questions that make history so interesting.....Orda

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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."