View Full Version : ADVICE: no decrease fatique when just marching
MagyarKhans Cham
05-03-2002, 07:50
clear?
if maps are getting bigger, it would be nice that marching will not affect fatique. just quickmarching and fighting should do that.
Krasturak
05-03-2002, 08:57
Gah!
The Cham is meaning to have no fatigue when marcjing ... no resting while marching either?
That way there remains a cost to march when the enemy stands ... as there should be.
Gah!
Papewaio
05-03-2002, 09:22
I like fatigue. It is more realistic.
Just half the rate of fatigue for larger maps. Don't get rid of it.
Actually I agree with the Cham on this one. It has always seemed to me that units tire much too quickly from simply marching. It would seem to me that marching on flat terrain for the entire half-hour that is the upper limit in most battles should take you down to "quite fresh". I mean, marching is simply something that armies did. It wasn't a high-stress activity unless you did it all day, or did it at breakneck speeds.
And the max we have in the game is a half-hour, nowhere near the whole day that it's going to take for a marching army to get truly tired out. Therefore it would seem most reasonable to simply remove the penalty here; however it could also simply be made quite small. The penalty for climbing slopes would in any case have to remain.
My 2 cents.
Matt
what do armies do to get to a battlefield?
I agree with the cham, have a system like in the SMG engine, units don't tire marching but tire real quickly while running - I mean, if you want to be more complex, have different fatigue for different weathers / climates, marching units in the desert could get knackered, but the level depends on armour - so its more complex than that, units marching should take fatigue, but the amount they take should be - in most cases - trivial.
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"Situation excellente. J'attaque!"
I like fatigue just the way it is. A long march tires the troops. Armies tried to rest before combat whenever possible. We can do the same in the game. Move the army and chill out for a few minutes while the men relax a bit. What's the hurry?
And the timer can always be turned off.
Kraellin
05-03-2002, 18:58
whitey, what in the world is: "..the SMG engine..."? Sarah Michelle Gellar engine? love to drive that one.
you guys have obviously never marched much in armor...on a hot day...with full pack...uphill or even downhill...or in snow or rain or mud...or even when riding on a horse. did you know, for instance, that in full body armor, it's just as tiring to go downhill as it is to go uphill? think about it :)
i do tend to agree that in most cases we're NOT talking about full body armor and if just walking on flat terrain it's not all that tiring and can even be refreshing, in some cases. therefore, i'd prefer fatigue to be based on the conditions. more armor = more fatigue, and all the rest of it. time would also play a part. more time marching, more fatigue, so, in actual fact, bigger maps shld add more fatigue if you have to march all the way across it.
on the other hand, i tend to agree that the scale could be adjusted downwards to allow some of this to happen slower. men were pretty hearty in those days and generally conditioned well.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
What I don't like about the fatigue system in single player is that:
In bad weather, the reinforcement arrives as nearly exausted!
And troops grow tired by just sitting there!
That's just plainly counter-intuitive.
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Pain is weakness leaving the body.
http://members.fortunecity.com/argus1000eyes/fighter.gif
Quote Originally posted by Gothmog:
...And troops grow tired by just sitting there!...[/QUOTE]
"When a bystander pulls a weapon, he is a bystander no more."
-- Vanya
If the men tire while camping, then it is a sign there is "activity under the covers"...
I can assure you of this fact... my armies always travel with 3 geishas for every warrior... and 500 for the general alone... http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif
Orda Khan
05-03-2002, 20:52
Lol Vanya. My Noyan will not share his women hence the troops are forced to sleep wearing boxing gloves!! Back to the thread, it is annoying especially when you try a manoeuvre that achieves nothing but exhausting your men. Mongol horsemen had up to 4 or more replacement mounts, enabling them to cover great distances and arrive fresh. Though fatigue can be a pain it does make you think a bit more about how you are going to move your men.......Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
sorry krae - SMG engine, Sid Meier's Gettysburg
marching is tiring on hot days - but I also said that in my post, so I said one thing at the start and then dis-agreed with myself at the end...
advice to anyone
never read a post by Whitey http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Hirosito
05-04-2002, 19:52
did anyone just hear something nah musta been whitey. i think that the penalty should be reduced greatly. however be kept in place for fighting and quickmarch
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Papewaio
05-05-2002, 14:45
It would be interesting if your fatigue rate went up with armour upgrades, while the rate of running decreased because of armour increases. Would make you think about armour upgrades on troops... fast and light or slow and heavy... I like variety and it would allow a bit of build design.
I think when standing still without threat ie Calvary are not within charge range and hence spears are not locked or having arrows rain down that fatigue levels should rise while resting... at least in MP so it stops the campers getting a huge advantage.
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Victory First, Battle Last
Hirosito
05-05-2002, 18:08
pape you have to consider that armour increses or improvement often ment that the armour got LIGHTER but better. and i defintely think that fatigue levels shouldn't rise when standing about.
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
CaPeFeAr
05-05-2002, 22:59
i think another option to improve the current system is to allow units to fully refresh faster and to not make units standing still fatuige. if a 8 minute march tires the troops to the border of fresh and tired. than a 1-2 minute stand still should fully refresh them. this would allow for more movement during game and more interesting charges. altering the fatuige level in half or lower in general could possibly have an effect of increasing troop moral during the mlee stage of the battle. troops would not rout as quick because they would not tire as quickly. a major part of the past patch efforts was to correct the moral problem and any changes in the way troops tire while moving would also have to be accompanied by a slight change in moral..which could lead to other unforseen unbalances..
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An oil change re-energizes...
In WE/MI the units do fatigue at different rates based on their actual armor level, but it only happens in wet weather. Under dry conditions, all the units seem to fatigue at the same rate.
Hirosito
05-07-2002, 23:54
well i think a 30 min walkabout wouldn't tire those tough bastards out.
1.POINT to be looked at: defenders should tire slower---the attacker had to get there he should be more nackered.
2. Only battles should really tire opponents out not walking.
3. Winning battles should always raise morale
Can't think of anything else
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
CaPeFeAr
05-08-2002, 06:05
if i remember correctly, the original purpose of the timer was not to encourage honor campers but to simulate the length of a day passing. 1 hour stw time represents 16 hours or so of battlefield time. therfore the normal 5 minutes it takes for an attacker to engage the defender is almost an hour simulated time. as a general, if you march your troops into battle at steady pace for an hour straight... when they arrive they will have broken a sweat but if you run them as fast as they can go they will be tired. i honestly feel that the current system is as close to perfect as you can make it... with larger maps in the future this will no doubt need to change in order to keep it as accurate as it is now..
i do have a disagrement with the refresh rates. currently troops can never completly refresh. this is not accurate. after an hour march, real troops could take a 5-10 minute breather and be fully restored. maybe one of our dojo members with more military experience than myself could let us all know more realisitic and accurate rates for real troops carrying full gear. this info could help us with new fatuige levels in the future.
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I would posit that due to all of the activities necessary to get to the battlefield and in proper order, troops going into battle would NEVER be so PERFECTLY fresh that a simple march would tire them. I would also say from personal experience that in my opinion the first several tiers of fatigue which an unconditioned person may gripe about are totally ignored by a conditioned person and will have little to no effect on his actual performance though he may, if he stops and thinks, actually be a bit "tired".
I dunno tho.
Matt
Papewaio
05-08-2002, 09:11
I always thought that the time scale for fatigue was speed up to match the rate at which melee occurs.
Otherwise the battles would be hours long. With the same end results.
The game just speeds up a few of the linked mechanisms.
It is fatigue when marching that is the topic here..
Papewaio
05-08-2002, 11:46
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
It is fatigue when marching that is the topic here..[/QUOTE]
And it should be relative to the rest of the game speed.
Melee fights that take a couple of seconds rather then minutes or tens of minutes. So the time scale for marching has been compressed as well.
What I would like to see is the time taken to fatigue more experienced troops should take longer. In other words your elite knights who have been training from their childhood and your british yeoman who have been training for years should suffer fatigue failure considerably slower then the untrained serfs (not that the serfs are unfit, just not used to the conditions hence more prone to adrenal overload and making fatigue centric failure).
Also unfamiliar climates should fatigue troops quicker until they climatise... then they would have to climatise back http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Kraellin
05-08-2002, 21:04
when i was in the military and training, the rule of thumb was 50 minutes work to 10 minutes rest. that's training. in combat, things change. if the topic is just marching TO the fight, then yes, a short rest shld do wonders for physical fatigue. it's getting up after the rest that is hard ;) the old rule of the grunt was, never run when you can walk, never walk when you can sit, and never sit when you can lie down.
there are actually 3 classes of fatigue, physical, mental, and spiritual. physical, well, that's obvious. the body is tired. mental fatigue is that heavy, massy, feel like a vegatable, sluggish, sort of feeling, more or less centered in one's mind, that does affect one's willingness to go on. and spiritual, we can more or less equate that with morale. this is the person himself and his willingness or unwillingness to carry on or not for whatever reason.
now, since the game equates honor with morale, we can say that a high morale unit would tend to carry on thru almost any adversity, including mental and physical fatigue. the lower the 'honor' then, the less likely one would be willing to persist thru adversity. the game actually does a fair job of representing this in some points. you see that 'fresh' unit running off the field. that's a case of low willingness regardless of physical or mental condition.
and there's the case of the unit that you cant rally. i saw a show on snipers not long ago and there was one interview with a retired sniper where the guy just couldnt physically carry or fire a weapon any more. spiritually, he no longer had the will. he was 'burned out', as they say. he'd just seen too much killing, killed too many himself, had sort of blanked it all out and would no longer carry a weapon. that is a type of 'fatigue' in a sense. and this is the unit you cant rally in the game.
thus, the point here is, honor/morale could also play a part in 'fatigue'. ever notice that a guy that's enthusiastic just never seems to tire? and that a guy that's sort of apathetic just looks tired all the time? this can be reflected in the modeling of units and even is to some extent.
ok, so i'm getting a little esoteric for a computer game. still, since we're dealing with morale, this does become a factor and when talking about fatigue, it does play a part.
thus, to bring this back to the original topic, i think you have to factor in honor/morale on this equation also. low honor troops are going to be more reluctant and would tend to tire, even if not physically, more than higher honor troops.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Units in WE/MI do get a morale penalty for being very tired, and the penalty gets larger for exhauseted and totally exhausted.
Hirosito
05-09-2002, 00:08
OK i had forgotten about the time scale thing that's true however, the AI in STW was always camping when defending so you had to get your guys across the whole of the battlefield. whilkst i'm not complaining about that exactly it has to be made sure that it's not too tiring to do that if the AI is going to always play it like that.
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Well, Pape, with the TroopStats I play with a pitched melee can run anywhere from 1 to 5 minutes usually, so maybe that's where I'm coming from..
Matt
MagyarKhans Cham
05-09-2002, 15:34
There is just no real value for fatique as it is now, esp when teh maps are enlarged.
The defender will set up as far as possible so the attackers looses too much whilst marching. Therefore i keep saying skip fatique during a simple march
Fastique will be restored with resting only
Papewaio
05-09-2002, 15:53
Quote Originally posted by Khan7:
Well, Pape, with the TroopStats I play with a pitched melee can run anywhere from 1 to 5 minutes usually, so maybe that's where I'm coming from..
Matt[/QUOTE]
Cool, but can you reset the seasonal timer to take that into account? or is this only for MP.
In SP the timer is one of the few ways I have been defeated... Nags in large numbers are hard to kill off so they tend to win unless the timer gets them first http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif... but I think that is fair as the AI is pretty weak as it is.
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Victory First, Battle Last
I dunno Pape the timer has never been an issue for me with these stats.
Matt
In WE/MI, there is a fatigue rate just from standing, and walking fatigue is not that much greater than standing fatigue. Fatigue is counterbalanced by a recovery rate. The system acts like the recovery rate increases with higher levels of fatigue. The result is that units will arrive at an equilibrium point depending on what they are doing, and what the weather conditions are. After the attacker marches across the map to where the defender is, the attacker can rest. Both armies will eventually equilibrate to the same level of fatigue. Except for fatigue due to the final charge, the attacker can neutralize the fatigue disadvantage incurred by marching or even running.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Clan Takiyama ~~~
Hirosito
05-10-2002, 00:53
that's fair enough but there's simply no need for it
when fighting and quickmarching/running you should tire otherwise not
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Wavesword
05-10-2002, 23:22
I've never really understood how fatigue can be properly applied to cavalry and foot in similar ways- Horses can become blown of course but in a completely different way to footmen- the riders aren't getting as tired after all.
Hirosito
05-12-2002, 01:00
true but not too easy to do. you'd have to have separate fatigue for rider and beast.
easiest way out let them tire a lot slower or not at all when only walking along.
as i said get rid of fatique when normal marching
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
Sir Kuma of The Org
05-17-2002, 05:03
Official answer to this question from the FAQ at TotalWar.com:
Q17. Will the big maps become the defaults size maps? and if so. will units still tire down when they just march?
A17. No the default maps aren't the largest ones. Yes, units will still get tired as they march.
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Ils sont grands seulement parce que nous sommes à genoux. Alors levons-nous debout!!!
MagyarKhans Cham
05-17-2002, 06:09
I wonder if the devs ever played an high standard game online....
Konnichiwa,
Fair question Magyar. My impression is that STW, STW WE and MTW are intended for SP, not MP. Making a MP game is completely different from SP. Something that works in SP will likely not work in MP (honorupgrades, realtime battleawards, timer).
I think we or the developers should not try to make one fixed perfect way to make MP games. What seems to be a solution for a problem might not be the problem at all or could cause another problem.
What's needed is the ability to fully customise the way you want to play your MP games.
Not just fatigue on/off, but a slider. Even better, a fully customisable fatigue 'table'. Standing tires a, Marching tires b, Running tires c, Charging tires d, fighting tires e, wearing armor or heavy weapons tires more (most powerful would be a fatiguescalefactor in troopstat.txt for every unittype: armor 5 Ni would tire at rate 2*, light cav would tire at 0,5*) and fatiguerecoveryrate.
A slider for morale is another.
Ability to set upper and lower caps for honor-, weapon- and armorupgrades.
Ability to set unitlimits: 0-16.
Fully customisable unitstats (including hardcoded ones like costs, flank- and RPS bonuses).
Define for each unit how upgrades will affect it: YA needs increased yari vs cav bonus not ability to destroy more expensive monks.
Allow to store many custom stats in a directory, like one can make, store, select and play custom maps now, even in comps!
A kokubox for each player.
The benefit is obvious: once you see that a certain issue causes bad gameplay, you can fix it yourself within 5 minutes without ranting and waiting at/for CA to come with a patch.
The same applies to SP: allow the player to play the game the way he wants it.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Amen Tosa. Well said.
There can't be too many options.
MagyarKhans Cham
05-17-2002, 18:49
I will ask our Great Khan to start a survey for the Sliders....
perhaps we can start already I will amke a topic about it...
Hirosito
05-17-2002, 23:41
exactly right have a default game and then tweak to your preferences
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
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