Superpower

[anubis88]

At the start of eb, in 272, which faction was the greatest power on the map? I talking military, economicaly and stability wise. Was it Carthage? or Seleucia? or the Ptolys?
Perhaps already rome?

What do you think? In my opinion Rome Already had enough strenght to take on everybody

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

In 272 Rome was still a piddly little backwater. Not until the First Punic War did they become any sort of great power. Though by our date they are already locally powerful and stable.

By contrast the Successors are wealthy and military poweful but they are wracked by internal conflicts.

Carthage would be a good bet but they rely overmuch of mercenaries.

[Watchman]

Meh, Rome just had an impressive resource and organizational base at that point. The thing with Carthage could easily have gone the other way; both of them were in potentia Mediterranean superpowers, and too close to each other to not collide. And the Carthies were not only crazy rich merchant princes with easy access to capable mercenaries, they had a near lock on the sealanes of the western Mediterranean basin.

I'd say the biggest shot at the time would have been Seleukia already by the default condition of pure size and commanding position on the continental trade routes. But of course being that big meant it had a lot of neighbours only too willing to gnaw at the borders, nevermind now the usual problems associated with keeping assorted far-flung provincial centers in check... say, Baktria...

[MiniMe]

At the start of eb, in 272, which faction was the greatest power on the map? I talking military, economicaly and stability wise.
Definitely Ptolys =)
military and economically and stability

[abou]

The Ptolemies weren't stable at all. They always had revolts going on - always.

[Dayve]

Bartix.

They might not have been big enough or influential enough to make it onto the EB faction list, but by 272 they had already fought off the combined armies of Seleukia and Ptolemy... Not to mention their little known defeat of Alexander that not many people know about because Alexander told everybody to forget it happened and not record it in any sort of history books because he was so embarrassed...

[MiniMe]

The Ptolemies weren't stable at all. They always had revolts going on - always.
ah, sorry, I thought (not "knew exactly") otherwise.
For some reasons I presumed they (being stinky rich and having the best agricultural lands) were simply going in decline just like pharaons before them.
Anyway, Alexandria for sure was one of richest cities of EB time frame, and they managed to keep this status during western roman empire times and even afterwards.



Carthage would be a good bet but they rely overmuch of mercenaries.
Hehehe, it's very interesting that people are used to point out Carthage reliability on mercenaries as weakness, but never think of Rome Imperial Legions that were pretty same mercenaries on wage as one of the main reasons of Rome decline.
Marius for some reasons is considered Rome's second founder though in fact it was him who began to ruin roman republic.

[abou]

ah, sorry, I thought (not "knew exactly") otherwise.
For some reasons I presumed they (being stinky rich and having the best agricultural lands) were simply going in decline just like pharaons before them.

Anyway, Alexandria for sure was one of richest cities of EB time frame, and they managed to keep this status during western roman empire times and even afterwards.
Oh, naturally. Money can do a lot of things for you - such as hire an almost endless supply of mercenaries. Alexandreia was also quite an awesome city and perhaps the best port in the extreme eastern Mediterranean. Regardless though, the Ptolemies had terrible problems with native revolts - including at one point a rebellion, which had crowned its own pharoh. The Seleukids on the other hand had revolts of a different source. They certainly had native revolts or rebellions, but their biggest ones came from their own appointees. The Attalids, Antiochos Hierax, Achaios, Molon in Media with his brother in Persis, Andragoras, Diodotos I and II... notice a pattern?

The Seleukids were probably closest to a "superpower", although that is a bit of a strong word. I would prefer to use the term Mediterranean power as it is a bit looser.

At our game start there are three big ones: the Seleukids, Ptolemies, and Carthage. Makedon has just been terribly bloodied by the Galatian invasion so they're out of the running. Epeiros under Pyrrhos probably would have made it if he hadn't been killed. Other than those three, that is about it.

Over time this changes, of course. Makedon, for example, regains its prominence in the Mediterranean (only to have Philip V screw it all up). Rome gets itself on the map with the victory in the 1st Punic War and then becomes a major player after the 2nd, which then knocks Carthage off the list. Rome then removes Makedon (Philip screwing up) and Antiochos III removes the Ptolemies with his victory at Panion. At that point it is just Rome and the Seleukids.

[MiniMe]

At our game start there are three big ones: the Seleukids, Ptolemies, and Carthage.
As for Carthage: I agree they were a "power" but I don't think they ever had a chance to become a "superpower".

Syracuse megapolis and the rest of Sicily greek cities were extremely close to Carthage and thus first Carthies expansion target not to mention that in strategic terms Sicily was a required condition of Carthage own lands safety.

Well, Carthies were trying to subdue them for about 300 years long before EB time frame but didn't succeed. It looks like these Sicilyan greeks were pretty tough guys.

Without some form of assimilating Sicily and Sicilyans into their ranks Carthies were doomed to evolve into what they become: an over-stretched strong-head & week-body trade empire with vulnerable center.

[Geoffrey S]

For some reasons I presumed they (being stinky rich and having the best agricultural lands) were simply going in decline just like pharaons before them.
Anyway, Alexandria for sure was one of richest cities of EB time frame, and they managed to keep this status during western roman empire times and even afterwards.
That is part of the story; Alexandria is only a small part of the Ptolemaic kingdom and mainly became so great by leeching the native peasant population elsewhere.

[Philippus Flavius Homovallumus]

Hehehe, it's very interesting that people are used to point out Carthage reliability on mercenaries as weakness, but never think of Rome Imperial Legions that were pretty same mercenaries on wage as one of the main reasons of Rome decline.
Marius for some reasons is considered Rome's second founder though in fact it was him who began to ruin roman republic.

Well you asked about 272 BC, if you would like me to expound on the stupidity of the Senate et al after the Third Punic War and the general woden headedness of the Roman constitution I will.

[MiniMe]

Well you asked about 272 BC, if you would like me to expound on the stupidity of the Senate et al after the Third Punic War and the general woden headedness of the Roman constitution I will.
don't get me wrong =)
It wasn't me, who was asking and I wasn't trying to mock you.

[Zarax]

As for Carthage: I agree they were a "power" but I don't think they ever had a chance to become a "superpower".

Syracuse megapolis and the rest of Sicily greek cities were extremely close to Carthage and thus first Carthies expansion target not to mention that in strategic terms Sicily was a required condition of Carthage own lands safety.

Well, Carthies were trying to subdue them for about 300 years long before EB time frame but didn't succeed. It looks like these Sicilyan greeks were pretty tough guys.

Without some form of assimilating Sicily and Sicilyans into their ranks Carthies were doomed to evolve into what they become: an over-stretched strong-head & week-body trade empire with vulnerable center.

Well, Carthage has always been more of a thalassocracy than an empire, even though without Rome in the middle the barcid leaders would eventually have managed to get some good inland expansion at least in Iberia...

[abou]

As for Carthage: I agree they were a "power" but I don't think they ever had a chance to become a "superpower".
Heh, you'll notice I said Mediterranean power, not superpower.

[Bootsiuv]

Rome gets itself on the map with the victory in the 1st Punic War and then becomes a major player after the 2nd, which then knocks Carthage off the list. Rome then removes Makedon (Philip screwing up) and Antiochos III removes the Ptolemies with his victory at Panion. At that point it is just Rome and the Seleukids.


Wasn't Mark Antony's Cleopatra a Ptolemy? I thought the Ptolemies were finally wiped out by Rome, not Seleukids. Am I mistaken?

[abou]

No, you're not mistaken. Let me clarify: the Ptolemies as a major mover and shaker in Mediterranean politics ended after the battle of Panion. They certainly continued to exist, but as no more than a farm for Rome.

[Watchman]

Methinks abou meant that Antichos knocked the Ptolies off the "great power" hill solidly enough that they never got back up.

EDIT: Curses, foiled again. What he said.