Lebanese army slaughtering innocent Palestinians!!!!

[Grey_Fox]

Oh wait, sorry.

It's actually the Lebanese.


Lebanese army shells refugee camp

By BASSEM MROUE, Associated Press Writer 38 minutes ago

TRIPOLI, Lebanon - Lebanese troops pounded a Palestinian refugee camp with artillery and tank fire for a second day Monday, raising huge columns of smoke as they battled a militant group suspected of ties to al-Qaida in the worst violence since the end of the 1975-90 civil war.

Nearly 50 combatants were killed in the first day of fighting Sunday, but it was not known how many civilians have been killed inside the Nahr el-Bared camp on the outskirts of the northern port city of Tripoli.

Palestinian officials in the camp reported at least nine civilians were killed Monday, along with 40 wounded. The figures could not be confirmed because emergency workers or security officials have not been able to get in.

The White House said it supports Lebanese Prime Minister Fuad Saniora's efforts to deal with fighting, and the State Department defended the Lebanese army, saying it was working in a "legitimate manner" against "provocations by violent extremists" operating in the camp.

Black smoke filled the sky over Nahr el-Bared as fires raged for hours and heavy gunfire and explosions rang out constantly. Shells could be seen thudding into buildings in the seaside camp.

Fighting paused briefly in the afternoon to allow the evacuation of 18 wounded civilians, according to Saleh Badran of the Palestinian Red Crescent Society. But the fighting quickly resumed. Ambulances raced through the streets of nearby Tripoli, where many shops were closed and many residents stayed inside.

"There are many wounded. We're under siege. There is a shortage of bread, medicine and electricity. There are children under the rubble," Sana Abu Faraj, a refugee, told Al-Jazeera television by cell phone from the camp.

Lebanon was already in the midst of its worst political crisis between the Western-backed government and Hezbollah-led opposition since the end of the civil war.

The battle was an unprecedented showdown between the Lebanese army and militant groups that have arisen in Lebanon's Palestinian refugee camps, which are home to tens of thousands of people living amid poverty and crime and which Lebanese troops are not allowed to enter.

The troops were fighting a group called
Fatah Islam, whose leader has said he is inspired by al-Qaida leader
Osama bin Laden and was training militants for attacks in other countries. Lebanese officials have also accused
Syria of using Fatah Islam to stir up trouble in Lebanon, a charge Damascus has denied.

Lebanese officials said one of the men killed Sunday was a suspect in a failed German train bombing — another indication the camp had become a refuge for Fatah Islam militants planning attacks outside of Lebanon. In the past, others affiliated with the group in the camp have said they were aiming to send trained fighters into
Iraq and the group's leader has been linked to al-Qaida in Iraq.

Hundreds of Lebanese troops, backed by tanks and armored carriers, surrounded the refugee camp Monday. M-48 battle tanks unleashed their cannon fire on the camp, home to 30,000 Palestinian refugees. The militants fired mortars toward the troops at daybreak.

An army officer at the front line said troops directed concentrated fire at buildings known to house militants. He said troops also had orders to strike hard at any target that returned fire.

"Everything we know that they were present in has been targeted," he told The Associated Press, speaking on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to talk to the media.

A spokesman for Fatah Islam, Abu Salim, warned that if the army bombardment did not stop, the militants would step up attacks by rockets and artillery "and would take the battle outside Tripoli."

He did not elaborate.

"It is a life-or-death battle. Their aim is to wipe out Fatah Islam. We will respond and we know how to respond," he told the AP.

Earlier in the day, another refugee camp, Ein el-Hilweh in southern Lebanon, was tense after Lebanese troops surrounded it and armed militants went on alert.

At least 27 soldiers and 20 militants were killed Sunday, Lebanese security officials said. But they did not know how many civilians had been killed in the camp because it is off-limits to their authority.

Lebanon says it has no authority to enter the camps under understandings with the Palestinians that give the PLO the authority in the camps. But Lebanon also is believed to be leery of entering for fear that any such actions would cause widespread unrest, be very costly and could spark pan-Arab sympathy for the Palestinian refugees that would trigger a backlash against the country.

The clashes were triggered Sunday when police raided suspected Fatah Islam hideouts in several buildings in Tripoli, searching for men wanted in a recent bank robbery. A gunbattle erupted at one of the buildings between the group's fighters, and troops were called in to help the police.

Militants then burst out of the nearby refugee camp, seizing Lebanese army positions, capturing two armored vehicles and ambushing troops. Lebanese troops later laid siege to the camp, where Fatah Islam militants were believed to be hiding.

Fatah Islam is led by a Palestinian named Shaker al-Absi, who is wanted in three countries. He is believed to have fought in
Afghanistan and Iraq. He told The New York Times in March that he was trying to spread al-Qaida's ideology and was training fighters inside the camp for attacks on other countries.

He would not specify which countries but expressed anger toward the United States. And he was sentenced to death earlier in absentia along with Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the leader of al-Qaida in Iraq killed last summer by U.S. forces in Iraq, for the 2002 assassination of an American diplomat in Jordan.

In a news conference in March, al-Absi denied he was sending fighters to Iraq.

"Fighting in our homeland (Palestine) is more important," he said then. "We have no connection with any regime or organization on this earth. Our connection is with 'There is no God but God' (the slogan of Islam). We have come to raise it over the skies of Jerusalem."

Al-Absi had been in custody in Syria until last fall but was released and set up his group in the camp, where he apparently found recruits, Lebanese officials said.

Lebanon's national police commander, Maj. Gen. Ashraf Rifi, said Damascus was using Fatah Islam as a covert way to wreak havoc in the country. He denied Fatah Islam's al-Qaida links, saying it was a Syrian-bred group.

"Perhaps there are some deluded people among them but they are not al-Qaida. This is imitation al-Qaida, a 'Made in Syria' one," he told the AP.

Lebanese security officials said Fatah Islam has up to 100 members who come from Arab countries, including Saudi Arabia and Syria, as well as local sympathizers who belong to the conservative Salafi branch of Islam.

The Lebanese Broadcasting Corp. TV station reported the dead militants included men from Bangladesh, Yemen and other Arab countries. Some wore explosive belts, security officials said.

Officials identified the suspect in the failed German train bombing as Saddam El-Hajdib, the fourth-highest ranking official in the Fatah Islam group, an official said. The official spoke on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak to the media. El-Hajdib had been on trial in absentia in Lebanon in the failed German plot.

It was unclear whether Lebanese authorities had known the whereabouts of El-Hajdib or al-Absi before the gunbattle first broke Sunday out in Tripoli.

White House deputy press secretary Tony Fratto said the Bush administration is concerned about the fighting. "We believe the parties should take a step back from violence," he said.

The State Department gave its support to the Lebanese army's battle with Fatah Islam.

"This is a group that has been involved in violence to achieve whatever their stated objective may be," spokesman Sean McCormack said.

McCormack declined to discuss whether the group may be tied to al-Qaida or other groups outside Lebanon. Asked about a possible Syrian link, McCormack said, "At this point I wouldn't draw that connection."

In Monday's fighting, a driver for the AP, working with journalists at the scene, was injured when he was hit in the thigh by a bullet or shrapnel. He was being treated at a hospital and was expected to recover.

Ahmed Methqal, a Muslim cleric in the camp, told Al-Jazeera that five civilians had been killed.

"You can say there is a massacre going on in the camp of children and women who have nothing to do with Fatah Islam," he said. "They are targeting buildings, with people in them."

Lebanon has struggled to defeat armed groups that control pockets of the country — especially inside the 12 Palestinian refugee camps housing 350,000 people.

Some camps have become havens for Islamic militants accused of carrying out attacks in the country and of sending recruits to fight U.S.-led coalition forces in Iraq.

Palestinian officials from the moderate Fatah faction in the
West Bank sought to distance themselves from Fatah Islam and urged Palestinian refugees in the camp to isolate the militant group.

Khaled Mashaal, exiled political leader of the Palestinian militant group Hamas, asked Saniora to take "necessary procedures" to ensure refugees in the camp are not harmed.

___

Associated Press Writer Hussein Dakroub in Beirut contributed.

Linky (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070521/ap_on_re_mi_ea/lebanon_violence)

[Ser Clegane]

Oh wait, sorry.

It's actually the Lebanese.

There - fixed it for you. ~:)

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Why oh why does every opponent of a terror group always use child-seeking ammunition? And who developed such ammunition in the first place?

:dizzy:

[Grey_Fox]

It was meant to be ironic :sorry2:

[Samurai Waki]

Well I think the Lebanese Army is sending a clear message though, "If you think you can come here to stir up trouble, think again."

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Well I think the Lebanese Army is sending a clear message though, "If you think you can come here to stir up trouble, think again."

Now, if we can only bring the total number of countries with this attitude up to about 210....

[rotorgun]

Why oh why does every opponent of a terror group always use child-seeking ammunition? And who developed such ammunition in the first place?

:dizzy:

Why oh why does every terror group attack or hide behind innocents and not fight with honor as warriors are wont to? :thumbsdown:


"You can say there is a massacre going on in the camp of children and women who have nothing to do with Fatah Islam," he said. "They are targeting buildings, with people in them."

This kind of thing has been going on since before Abraham and the Ammonites and Amelikites. Still mankind has not learned to curb his ways.
:shame:

[Don Corleone]

There's a cold, hard algebra to war that we seem to have forgotten in the modern world. I don't think the Lebanese Army's goal is to kill Palestinian civilians. But I do agree, they are using such a crude and ineffective targeting mechanism, it cannot be assumed to actually kill Fatah either.

At the end of the day, you take responsiblity for those you allow to dwell among you. If camps didn't allow Fatah refuge, the Lebanese violence would end. The question here is who will blink first. Sadly, it's civilian casualties, on all sides, that are always the stakes in this game.

[Watchman]

Why oh why does every terror group attack or hide behind innocents and not fight with honor as warriors are wont to? :thumbsdown: Because "honourable combat" is and has always been a luxury only affordable to the strong. Others either got cunning and callous, or splattered.

[Incongruous]

There's a cold, hard algebra to war that we seem to have forgotten in the modern world. I don't think the Lebanese Army's goal is to kill Palestinian civilians. But I do agree, they are using such a crude and ineffective targeting mechanism, it cannot be assumed to actually kill Fatah either.

At the end of the day, you take responsiblity for those you allow to dwell among you. If camps didn't allow Fatah refuge, the Lebanese violence would end. The question here is who will blink first. Sadly, it's civilian casualties, on all sides, that are always the stakes in this game.

No we have not forgotten it, I rather prefer that we discarded it along time ago. To simply accept that normal people like me have to be killed in order for the World to "Run" properly to the sound of politicos does not stick.

Again we see the product of Isreali occupation, the complete destruction of Order in the Levant, yeah thumbs up guys, you did good:2thumbsup:

[Grey_Fox]

Again we see the product of Isreali occupation, the complete destruction of Order in the Levant, yeah thumbs up guys, you did good

Hence why I used "Israelis slaughters innocent Palestinians" as the original title - it was only a matter of time before somebody figured out a way to blame the Jews.

[Don Corleone]

No we have not forgotten it, I rather prefer that we discarded it along time ago. To simply accept that normal people like me have to be killed in order for the World to "Run" properly to the sound of politicos does not stick.

Again we see the product of Isreali occupation, the complete destruction of Order in the Levant, yeah thumbs up guys, you did good:2thumbsup:

Of course, Bopa. Of course. The Lebanese try to keep order within their own country, and it's the stinking Jews Israelis again. Boy, they sure do show up everywhere, don't they?

So if I let a mass murderer stay at my house and refuse to turn him over to the police, can I blame the stinking Jews Israelis when the cops kick my door in too?

And I wasn't trying to justify it. You might find this shocking, but I actually do feel really bad for the Palestinians. They deserve better leaders, ones that won't let Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah use them as human shields while they launch strikes on Lebanese and Israeli targets.

[ajaxfetish]

Hence why I used "Israelis slaughters innocent Palestinians" as the original title - it was only a matter of time before somebody figured out a way to blame the Jews.
Sounds like part of the international Jewish conspiracy to slaughter innocent Palestinians.

Ajax

[Incongruous]

Hence why I used "Israelis slaughters innocent Palestinians" as the original title - it was only a matter of time before somebody figured out a way to blame the Jews.

I am not blaming the jews. Did I say so? No I think I blamed Israel, note the difference before you bring out the good'ol anti-semetism card:2thumbsup:
The King of Jordan ( a smart man) has said that the key to peace in the Middle East is the Isreali-Palestinian conflict. Although I do not agree wholly, it would reduce the ammunition with which Islamists can use against THE WEST.

The key to peace is Israel acting like a develpoped, industrial and westernised state. At the moment it is acting like warmongering no good rogue state, above the regulations the West so fervently uphold. However I realise that the Palestinians sometime do terrible things. In response to what Israel has done to them, I mean sometimes I bang my head in wonderment at what they get away with, it shocks me. :wall: Israel are the bigger partner in this relationship, time they started acting like it, give land back, pump money into a new Palestinian state and let the people live. The craetion of a well off state will completley destroy radicalism (heres hoping) in Palestine.
Then situations like this in Lebanon will cease to exist.

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

You're actually blaming Israel for an event in which Lebanese soldiers fired Lebanese munitions at Palestinians in Lebanon?

[Incongruous]

Of course, Bopa. Of course. The Lebanese try to keep order within their own country, and it's the stinking Jews Israelis again. Boy, they sure do show up everywhere, don't they?

So if I let a mass murderer stay at my house and refuse to turn him over to the police, can I blame the stinking Jews Israelis when the cops kick my door in too?

And I wasn't trying to justify it. You might find this shocking, but I actually do feel really bad for the Palestinians. They deserve better leaders, ones that won't let Fatah, Hamas and Hezbollah use them as human shields while they launch strikes on Lebanese and Israeli targets.

Yeah, you feel bad for them, just make sure you never point a finger at Isreal, you might seem like one of those nut jobs who have tendencies to link troubles in the Midlle-East with Israel. Careful Don, carefull...

[Grey_Fox]

Wasn't calling you anti-semetic.

[PanzerJaeger]

Some people will blame anything on the Jews. Its pathetic. :shame:

[Incongruous]

Some people will blame anything on the Jews. Its pathetic. :shame:

Some people need to read properly, I said Israel.:inquisitive:

[PanzerJaeger]

Ah yes, the Jewish state. :laugh4:

[Incongruous]

Ah yes, the Jewish state. :laugh4:

So, I can't be critical of a country that has based itself upon race and has tried damned hard to keep it that way, because that makes me a racist?

[PanzerJaeger]

So, I can't be critical of a country that has based itself upon race and has tried damned hard to keep it that way, because that makes me a racist?

The question is: Why is your knee-jerk reaction to blame Israel for the events highlighted in this thread?

That kind of blame-Israel-first attitude is different from thoughtful evaluation of the issue and is based in anti-semitism.

Basically, if you see a topic about a Lebanese internal security situation and the first thing you think of is evil israelis omgz!!!1, you might need to figure out the root of your hatred. :yes:

[econ21]

Don, I wish you would not keep calling the relevant Palestinian group being targeted by the Lebanese government "Fatah". It is is "Fatah Islam", an Al Qaida sympathesising Islamic group. "Fatah" proper is a secular Palestinian group that is the largest party in the PLO. Fatah proper has disowned Fatah Islam and seems to be aligned with the Lebanese government and the West against the Islamicists - e.g. the Hizbollah opposition in Lebanon and the Hamas government in Palestine. This is not an academic distinction given that at the moment there seems to be virtual civil war going on in Palestine between the PLO and the Islamicists. (Indeed, confusing Fatah Islam with Fatah is rather like confusing National Socialists with Socialists.)

[Doing a quick wikipedia check, "fatah" itself seems to be a term with positive associations among Muslims, often referring to the early Islamic conquests.]

[Incongruous]

The question is: Why is your knee-jerk reaction to blame Israel for the events highlighted in this thread?

That kind of blame-Israel-first attitude is different from thoughtful evaluation of the issue and is based in anti-semitism.

Basically, if you see a topic about a Lebanese internal security situation and the first thing you think of is evil israelis omgz!!!1, you might need to figure out the root of your hatred. :yes:

Whatever dude.

[Don Corleone]

Don, I wish you would not keep calling the relevant Palestinian group being targeted by the Lebanese government "Fatah". It is is "Fatah Islam", an Al Qaida sympathesising Islamic group. "Fatah" proper is a secular Palestinian group that is the largest party in the PLO. Fatah proper has disowned Fatah Islam and seems to be aligned with the Lebanese government and the West against the Islamicists - e.g. the Hizbollah opposition in Lebanon and the Hamas government in Palestine. This is not an academic distinction given that at the moment there seems to be virtual civil war going on in Palestine between the PLO and the Islamicists. (Indeed, confusing Fatah Islam with Fatah is rather like confusing National Socialists with Socialists.)

[Doing a quick wikipedia check, "fatah" itself seems to be a term with positive associations among Muslims, often referring to the early Islamic conquests.]

This I did not know, and I appreciate the update. I actually thought it was the Fatah of the Al-Aqsa brigades causing all the trouble in that camp outside Tripoli. My apologies to them and to you. I continue to learn by my association with the Backroom. :bow:

[Alexander the Pretty Good]

Bopa, you missed this question:


You're actually blaming Israel for an event in which Lebanese soldiers fired Lebanese munitions at Palestinians in Lebanon?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Yes guys, Bopa is extremely unreasonable. When Israel launched its attack on the Lebanon not a year ago nobody here even dared mention that perhaps other parties, say Iran and Syria, acted as destabilising factors in the Lebanon and the regio at large...
[/sarcasm]

I strongly disagree that Israel is the sole, or even most important root of the problems in the ME, but I'm not closing my eyes to the shortcomings of Israeli policy either.

[Samurai Waki]

Israel has about as much to with the situation currently going on in Lebanon, as Al Qaeda does in Iraq. Not much.

[Incongruous]

Bopa, you missed this question:

Yes, not entirley, but yes.
Syria is the other big contender, of coarse they are more directly responsible (Im not buying into their statemnts of innocence).

However Israel seems to have constantly strived to destabilise Libanon, last years terrible act comes to mind.

[The Wizard]

Those bloody Israelis, destroying peace across the Middle East once ag--wait... what? Lebanese doing this?

. . .

Hey, them dudes paid some serious attention in 2006!

---------------------

In all seriousness now, this is merely the Lebanese state finally getting to cope with the evils of its past. The Arab refugees from what Europeans named "Palestine," in imitation of the Romans, were stuffed into camps that were worse than Cairo's meanest ghetto and kept there in the ambition of the pan-Arabist governments and movements at the time to have easily brainwashed subjects to destabilize their arch-enemy and Antichrist Israel -- next to, of course, an incredible optimism as to their own chances against said Jewish state, and simple and quite frankly base passing of a news hetze.

Now -- as it had to from 1975 to 1990 -- Lebanon has to deal with that legacy. Once again, a highly radical, militant and utterly ruthless Palestinian personal army has risen, giving not a whit for anybody's lives but their own. It's the old story all over again, albeit on a smaller scale. Thank God that (as of now) they lack the power to rip apart Lebanon like their predecessors in Fatah and Arafat, but this is the first foothold al-Qa'ida seems to have gained in Palestinian society. This might be the beginning of something worrisome, as even the utter madmen in the Islamic Jihad movement rejected al-Qa'ida's advances in the past.


However Israel seems to have constantly strived to destabilise Libanon, last years terrible act comes to mind.

Utter drivel. The Palestinian terrorists of Fatah ripped Lebanon apart and made it into the weak state it is now, and Israel was merely a participant in the aftermath. Please go read up on some facts before you start making claims.

[Grey_Fox]

However Israel seems to have constantly strived to destabilise Libanon, last years terrible act comes to mind.

Yeah, and the fact that the Iranian army, sorry, Hezbollah, is operating in Lebanon had nothing to do with it...

[Tribesman]

Israel is involved only so far as it happens to be Palestinian refugees in a camp .
Its like a rerun of the start of the civil war , only this time its a Western backed government fighting against a Syrian backed "militia" .
Accompanied by a nice spate of tit for tat carbombs in Sunni and Christian areas of Beirut .
So Panzer...
The question is: Why is your knee-jerk reaction to blame Israel for the events highlighted in this thread?
the events concern Palestinians , the Palestine/Israel problem is central to events . A core issue of that is the refugees , it happens to be the major sticking point in any proposed resolution .

[The Wizard]

Israel is involved only so far as it happens to be Palestinian refugees in a camp .

Correction: that was the Lebanon's own doing. Oops! Should've integrated them into society, like Jordan did (and only after Arafat and chums tried to do to that country what they did to Lebanon).

[Tribesman]

Correction: that was the Lebanon's own doing. Oops!
:oops: indeed Baba, don't ya know that Jordan has bigger refugee camps than Lebanon , the people who live in them are ....errrrrrrr.....Palestinian refugees:dizzy2:

[The Wizard]

:oops: indeed Baba, don't ya know that Jordan has bigger refugee camps than Lebanon , the people who live in them are ....errrrrrrr.....Palestinian refugees:dizzy2:

Actually, there is hardly a problem with refugees anywhere near the size as it exists in Lebanon, the West Bank that Jordan fled, and the Gaza Strip that Egypt fled.

Sure, there used to be, but after Black September this element of population (forming a larger part of Jordan's society than the native Bedouin Arabs today) was steadily integrated into the relatively oilless (and therefore less divided) country of Jordan. Now, the economy is largerly motored by the Palestinian majority, though in typical Middle Eastern fashion the political situation has not changed a whit to match, the Hashemites still strongly in control, if not quite as strongly as their Saudi colleagues.

It only goes to show you what might have been achieved had Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan (which, as you touch upon, still copes with the latent results) integrated the refugees from what Europeans liked to call "Palestine," which at the time still thought of themselves more as Arabs than as Palestinians, the Palestinian nationalist movement being a comparatively minor (not to mention young) part of the general pro-Arab/pan-Arabist ideology dominating the Middle East at the time. Jordan is the most stable and prosperous of all these territories with large Palestinian concentrations, while the Gaza, the West Bank and Lebanon are rife with chaos, places where every third sucker has his own militia and thusly the ability to ignite further bloodshed with his tiny splinter regardless of the major agreements made.

An Arab legacy, that. I do not deny that the Israelis have been far from forthcoming in solving these problems, in some cases likely excarcebating them, but the problem of militancy, illiteracy, poverty and chaos in Palestinian regions is for a very large and very important part the direct result of the machinations of Israel's pan-Arabist enemies and neighbors.

What is happening in Lebanon is thusly merely a state suffering from the going awry of one of its own little plots. A dangerous imitation, shall we say, of 1970 and 1975? Only time will tell. But what is sure is that al-Qa'ida has capitalized on its secular opponents' grandiose blunders in a most royal way.

[Slyspy]

Have you seen the "refugee camp"? It isn't a camp any more, it is a town.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Camp sounds so much more despairing though...and the "goal" is to get those people back on the land they rightfully owned until 1948 (:dizzy: ) so if you make it sound more "permanent" you are an enemy of the Palestinian people. It's probably their version of "why do you hate freedom."

[ShadeHonestus]

It's probably their version of "why do you hate freedom."

:bling:

[AntiochusIII]

Have you seen the "refugee camp"? It isn't a camp any more, it is a town.Which makes the failure to integrate these unfortunate refugees and their descendants -- who probably consider themselves refugees from Palestine rather than Lebanese, Jordanians, or Egyptians -- into a semblance of stabilized relationship with their hosts even more tragic. The refugee camps/towns are hotbeds of terrorism, and for good reason. Desperate people act desperately.

I'm sure that while we can blame Israel for many things, the utter madness that was the latest invasion of Lebanon included, this event illustrates a more tragic side of "internal" Arab relations, the nuances of which most people in the West, I included, are almost universally ignorant of.

[Husar]

Which makes the failure to integrate these unfortunate refugees and their descendants -- who probably consider themselves refugees from Palestine rather than Lebanese, Jordanians, or Egyptians -- into a semblance of stabilized relationship with their hosts even more tragic. The refugee camps/towns are hotbeds of terrorism, and for good reason. Desperate people act desperately.

I'm sure that while we can blame Israel for many things, the utter madness that was the latest invasion of Lebanon included, this event illustrates a more tragic side of "internal" Arab relations, the nuances of which most people in the West, I included, are almost universally ignorant of.
To me it sounds more like those people do not want to integrate because they still dream of going back to the wonderful country that is partly occupied by israeli soldiers and generally looks like a big mess.

May be wrong, but I also wonder why the lebanese army is not allowed to enter the refugee camp/town/whatever? If they allow these people to live there, on lebanese land, and are then not allowed to enter(who does not allow that anyway? the UN? the NATO? the warsaw pact?), it's not wonder they just shoot into it if the people from inside shoot out of it.:dizzy2:

[KrooK]

Someone said something like "why are you accusing Israel"?
Maybe because Israel support and protect dozens of war criminals, murderers and rapers.
Israel provide them safety because they are Jewish nationality.
Many people hate war criminals, murderers and rapers .... and everyone who support them.
Maybe thats why many people hate Israel?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Someone said something like "why are you accusing Israel"?
Maybe because Israel support and protect dozens of war criminals, murderers and rapers.
Israel provide them safety because they are Jewish nationality.
Many people hate war criminals, murderers and rapers .... and everyone who support them.
Maybe thats why many people hate Israel?

Possible I suppose, though most people tend to be cheerfully ignorant of the details of what foreign governments are doing with criminals, extraditions, etc. I suspect that this is not the foremost issue.

At its core, its rather simple. The arabs living there felt it was their land to control and to use and to live in and that creating a state there, without their permission, was tantamount to theft. At its core, the whole thing is about "It's mine and I want it back."

[The Wizard]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=769_1179725620

Video of the Lebanese army and police active in this "camp". Notice the large mass of civilians and the utter chaos in Lebanese ranks.


Have you seen the "refugee camp"? It isn't a camp any more, it is a town.

More like a city -- or, more properly said, an urban ghetto. Extremely high unemployment, poverty and stagnation are facts of life for the people living in these places.


May be wrong, but I also wonder why the lebanese army is not allowed to enter the refugee camp/town/whatever? If they allow these people to live there, on lebanese land, and are then not allowed to enter(who does not allow that anyway? the UN? the NATO? the warsaw pact?), it's not wonder they just shoot into it if the people from inside shoot out of it.:dizzy2:

Because of immense political pressure coming from the major pan-Arabist states (Egypt and Syria) on Lebanon in the late '60s. Nasser, the leader of the junta in Egypt at the time, wanted the Lebanese to keep their hands off the Palestinians so they could arm themselves and conduct raids across the Israeli border without any obstruction by Beirut's forces, creating a second front in the fedayeen problem -- the first being that of the Gaza Strip, which was transformed into a giant ghetto full of Palestinian refugees being siphoned off for raiding forces by Egyptian authorities just about the moment the 1948 war ended.

Lebanon (like Jordan before it), being tiny next to large Syria and giant Egypt, agreed. What they got in return was a state within a state, Arafat and his cronies (Sunnis and pan-Arabist secular socialists) terrorizing the (Shi'ite) locals and liquidating anybody who disagreed. (Shi'ite) Hezb'ollah's founding was a direct result of that, as was the Lebanese Civil War. Where Jordan, with its unitary Bedouin character, was able to crush Arafat in Black September, Lebanon, its government and politics divided along ethnic and religious lines as they were, was unable to do so. Thousands upon thousands of Arabs died as a result. So much for the united Arab cause, huh? And then we're still ignoring the ghetto-izing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Arabs from "Palestine" in a mere attempt to create ready tools for the struggle against the Jews.


Someone said something like "why are you accusing Israel"?
Maybe because Israel support and protect dozens of war criminals, murderers and rapers.
Israel provide them safety because they are Jewish nationality.
Many people hate war criminals, murderers and rapers .... and everyone who support them.
Maybe thats why many people hate Israel?

:wall:

It never gets old, does it? Do you fear Israel because it's millions of Jews with mouths to speak and weapons to defend themselves? Because animal fear is the only plausible reason I can think of for you to go off on this cute little fact-free tirade of yours.

War criminals? Murderers? Rapists? The harboring of all of them? Perhaps you've mistaken Argentina and Israel or something. Or maybe you've forgotten the distinction between Jewish and Arab Semites. If not, then you, sir, should kindly shut your mouth. Facts do not equate to anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Israeli hatred.

[PanzerJaeger]

Someone said something like "why are you accusing Israel"?
Maybe because Israel support and protect dozens of war criminals, murderers and rapers.
Israel provide them safety because they are Jewish nationality.
Many people hate war criminals, murderers and rapers .... and everyone who support them.
Maybe thats why many people hate Israel?

Maybe that baseless crap is why you hate Israel? :shame:

[Petrus]

It only goes to show you what might have been achieved had Syria, Lebanon, Egypt and Jordan (which, as you touch upon, still copes with the latent results) integrated the refugees from what Europeans liked to call "Palestine," which at the time still thought of themselves more as Arabs than as Palestinians, the Palestinian nationalist movement being a comparatively minor (not to mention young) part of the general pro-Arab/pan-Arabist ideology dominating the Middle East at the time.

(…)

An Arab legacy, that.




Although I agree with several points in your post, I find those elements problematic.

The arab populated areas have been dominated by European colonialists, following ottoman empire, following arab empire etc.

When decolonization occurred the populations did not find themselves being lybian or Palestinian or whatever, they had to build themselves a national feeling to become something else than a bunch of guys lost somewhere.

I think the situation of the Palestinians can be compared to that of the Algerians : a very loose national feeling existed before 1954 and the start of the independence war but it was far from being enough to form a nation. In 1962 at the end of the war Algeria had became a nation, despite its geographical, ethnic and cultural diversity. This was the result of both nationalist propaganda and military ‘police’ actions from the French army.

So claiming that what you describe is due to arabs is incorrect, it is due to the local situation at the time, the rising of secular arab rulers and to Israel. I do not think it is possible to extract Israel from the equation and I would say that, as a catalyser of the different ideologies that were developed in the area, Israel is the main factor in the situation that exists today in the middle east.

[Slyspy]

War criminals? Murderers? Rapists? The harboring of all of them? Perhaps you've mistaken Argentina and Israel or something. Or maybe you've forgotten the distinction between Jewish and Arab Semites. If not, then you, sir, should kindly shut your mouth. Facts do not equate to anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Israeli hatred.

Be cautious in equating those three factors.

I regard Zionists to be just as dangerous and unbalanced (and unbalancing) as any "pan-Arabist" or Islamist, and regard Israel as no more a reliable ally of the West than any of the Arab states.

Yet I do not hate Jews, nor do I believe that Israel as no right to exist.

Remember also that Israel has it's share of terrorists and killers just like most countries and, yes, it has protected them and even lauded them.

This hardly makes them unique of course.

[KrooK]

Baba you are talking here about fear.
I do not fear telling my opinion.
For me Jews from Israel behave like cowards.
Many of them commited war crimes - just after ww2 or later.
Now they don't want admit that.
Furthermore they accuse of anti-semitism everyone who don't agree with this situation.
Nowaydays Jews seems to treat other nations, especially Poles, like people of 2nd cathegory.
I do not agree with it.
If you want call me anti-semite, yes I AM ANTI-SEMITE and I'm pround.
Because according to you being pro-semite means "treat Jew like someone better just because he is Jew".

Your anti-semitic
KrooK

edit- to express this more i made some word bold

[Don Corleone]

Zionism and Pan-Arabism (or Islamic extremism for that matter) are not equivalent world views. It's serious misappropriation of intent to say "same-same" and equate them.

At it's core, Zionism is a belief in a Jewish homeland. That's it. A homeland. A right to their own little corner of the world where Jews can exist and not have to rely on Christians and Muslims to have mercy on them. Zionism is non-expansionist. There are no plans for Zionism to spread itself by emmigrating, or establishing Talmudic law in Washington D.C. or London, popular will be damned. Quite the opposite, they have a rather isolationist view of the world. Somehow, wanting their own autonomous state, after the Christian and Islamic nations have been so kind to Jews over the centuries, makes the entire nation terrorists and wicked. But we're not anti-Jewish or anything, we just want them to be happy to hang out in the nice little ghettoes we set up for them, the ungrateful wretches. :dizzy2:

Pan Arabism is a belief that all non-Jewish semitic peoples are superior to the rest of the people on the planet and at the end of the day, should rule over them. Yes, they focused on the oil rich states of the middle East, mainly as a means to power. But the goal was always a pan-Arabic globe.

Islamic extremism goes even further. In this world view, the entire world must be forced to convert to Islam and a Sharia-based caliphate established. Only those of Mohammed's bloodline are fit to be Imams and leaders. The rest of us, even after we've been forced to convert, will live as servants to the master race.

So, because we're talking about stinking Jews Israelis with a desire for a autonomous state (where non-Jews are welcome, mind you), we can equate Zionism with extremist movements bent on world conquest. This despite the fact that even though the most ardent of Zionists were content with the formation of the state of Israel (granted, according to the original boundaries laid out in Genesis, no state of Palestine). I think the vast majority of pro-Israeli views allow for a two-state solution. Last I checked, Hamas and even Fatah do not allow Israel to be drawn on maps. I understand that there are subtleties in the extemity of the hatred towards Israel between these two groups, but neither has acknowledged Israel's right to exist.

Saying that Zionism and Wahabism (or whatever you want to call the drive to establish the global caliphate that seems to be gaining momentum) are equivalent world views is a gross mischaracterization that only flies because we're talking about stinking Jews Israelis. But hey, I don't have anything against Jews, just Israelis. :dizzy2:

Edit: Yes, Zionism is a rather reactionary world view, and I certainly don't advocate the violent practices some of its more extreme adherents have used. I'm not trying to portray Israel as a nation of saints, or Zionists as blameless angels. My point is that to say Islam has Al Queda and Judaism has Zionism is a terribly flawed analogy that grossly misrepresents the goals and views of the two sub-populations.

[Louis VI the Fat]

For me Jews from Israel behave like cowards.
Many of them commited war crimes - just after ww2 or later.
Now they don't want admit that.
Furthermore they accuse of anti-semitism everyone who don't agree with this situation.
Nowaydays Jews seems to treat other nations, especially Poles, like people of 2nd cathegory.
I do not agree with it. B-but...I thought the Jews had treated the Polish like people of a 2nd category already for centuries, long before the terrible atrocities the Jews commited in WWII....? ~:confused:

[Incongruous]

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=769_1179725620

Video of the Lebanese army and police active in this "camp". Notice the large mass of civilians and the utter chaos in Lebanese ranks.



More like a city -- or, more properly said, an urban ghetto. Extremely high unemployment, poverty and stagnation are facts of life for the people living in these places.



Because of immense political pressure coming from the major pan-Arabist states (Egypt and Syria) on Lebanon in the late '60s. Nasser, the leader of the junta in Egypt at the time, wanted the Lebanese to keep their hands off the Palestinians so they could arm themselves and conduct raids across the Israeli border without any obstruction by Beirut's forces, creating a second front in the fedayeen problem -- the first being that of the Gaza Strip, which was transformed into a giant ghetto full of Palestinian refugees being siphoned off for raiding forces by Egyptian authorities just about the moment the 1948 war ended.

Lebanon (like Jordan before it), being tiny next to large Syria and giant Egypt, agreed. What they got in return was a state within a state, Arafat and his cronies (Sunnis and pan-Arabist secular socialists) terrorizing the (Shi'ite) locals and liquidating anybody who disagreed. (Shi'ite) Hezb'ollah's founding was a direct result of that, as was the Lebanese Civil War. Where Jordan, with its unitary Bedouin character, was able to crush Arafat in Black September, Lebanon, its government and politics divided along ethnic and religious lines as they were, was unable to do so. Thousands upon thousands of Arabs died as a result. So much for the united Arab cause, huh? And then we're still ignoring the ghetto-izing of hundreds of thousands of innocent Arabs from "Palestine" in a mere attempt to create ready tools for the struggle against the Jews.



:wall:

It never gets old, does it? Do you fear Israel because it's millions of Jews with mouths to speak and weapons to defend themselves? Because animal fear is the only plausible reason I can think of for you to go off on this cute little fact-free tirade of yours.

War criminals? Murderers? Rapists? The harboring of all of them? Perhaps you've mistaken Argentina and Israel or something. Or maybe you've forgotten the distinction between Jewish and Arab Semites. If not, then you, sir, should kindly shut your mouth. Facts do not equate to anti-Jewish, anti-Zionist, anti-Israeli hatred.

You're kidding right?
Sharon was only let of being convicted as a geonocidal maniac because the UN left it's manhood in a jar. Isreal has been led by War criminals since it's inception. You really need to get a new tag line as well. I am staunchly anti-Isreal, I reckon that Isreal is the cause of nearly all problems in the middle east, life would be better without it. But I am not anti-Jewish, give me a brake!:wall: So I am against a warmongering nation. So I think Zionism was terrible, well guess what? It was.

(takes deep breath)

[Boyar Son]

Go ahead everyone, let it all out.

Also KrooK, doesnt it seem plausible that you dislike Isreal instead of the religion?

[Slyspy]

Zionism and Pan-Arabism (or Islamic extremism for that matter) are not equivalent world views. It's serious misappropriation of intent to say "same-same" and equate them.

At it's core, Zionism is a belief in a Jewish homeland. That's it. A homeland. A right to their own little corner of the world where Jews can exist and not have to rely on Christians and Muslims to have mercy on them. Zionism is non-expansionist. There are no plans for Zionism to spread itself by emmigrating, or establishing Talmudic law in Washington D.C. or London, popular will be damned. Quite the opposite, they have a rather isolationist view of the world. Somehow, wanting their own autonomous state, after the Christian and Islamic nations have been so kind to Jews over the centuries, makes the entire nation terrorists and wicked. But we're not anti-Jewish or anything, we just want them to be happy to hang out in the nice little ghettoes we set up for them, the ungrateful wretches. :dizzy2:

Pan Arabism is a belief that all non-Jewish semitic peoples are superior to the rest of the people on the planet and at the end of the day, should rule over them. Yes, they focused on the oil rich states of the middle East, mainly as a means to power. But the goal was always a pan-Arabic globe.

Islamic extremism goes even further. In this world view, the entire world must be forced to convert to Islam and a Sharia-based caliphate established. Only those of Mohammed's bloodline are fit to be Imams and leaders. The rest of us, even after we've been forced to convert, will live as servants to the master race.

So, because we're talking about stinking Jews Israelis with a desire for a autonomous state (where non-Jews are welcome, mind you), we can equate Zionism with extremist movements bent on world conquest. This despite the fact that even though the most ardent of Zionists were content with the formation of the state of Israel (granted, according to the original boundaries laid out in Genesis, no state of Palestine). I think the vast majority of pro-Israeli views allow for a two-state solution. Last I checked, Hamas and even Fatah do not allow Israel to be drawn on maps. I understand that there are subtleties in the extemity of the hatred towards Israel between these two groups, but neither has acknowledged Israel's right to exist.

Saying that Zionism and Wahabism (or whatever you want to call the drive to establish the global caliphate that seems to be gaining momentum) are equivalent world views is a gross mischaracterization that only flies because we're talking about stinking Jews Israelis. But hey, I don't have anything against Jews, just Israelis. :dizzy2:

Edit: Yes, Zionism is a rather reactionary world view, and I certainly don't advocate the violent practices some of its more extreme adherents have used. I'm not trying to portray Israel as a nation of saints, or Zionists as blameless angels. My point is that to say Islam has Al Queda and Judaism has Zionism is a terribly flawed analogy that grossly misrepresents the goals and views of the two sub-populations.

If that little diatribe is directed at my post above then thank you for your kind attention. Irrespective of this I would ask you to remove you clever little strike outs since they insult the reader and reflect badly on the author.

I regard Zionists to be part of the problem in the Middle East, simple as. I would no more give a Zionist the time of day than I would an Islamist. Both are too tightly bound by their own ideals to operate in a realistic and reasonable manner.

[Goofball]

You're kidding right?
Sharon was only let of being convicted as a geonocidal maniac because the UN left it's manhood in a jar. Isreal has been led by War criminals since it's inception. You really need to get a new tag line as well. I am staunchly anti-Isreal, I reckon that Isreal is the cause of nearly all problems in the middle east, life would be better without it. But I am not anti-Jewish, give me a brake!:wall: So I am against a warmongering nation. So I think Zionism was terrible, well guess what? It was.

(takes deep breath)

A "warmongering nation?"

In the first month of Israel's existence, it was invaded by every one of its Arab neighbors, whose goal was the eradication and/or enslavement of every Jew in Israel.

But I guess you're right. Israel is the source of all the trouble in the middle east. If those Arabs has been able to finish the the job back in '48, the region would no doubt be a Judenfrei paradise of islamic love and tolerance right now.

[Don Corleone]

If that little diatribe is directed at my post above then thank you for your kind attention. Irrespective of this I would ask you to remove you clever little strike outs since they insult the reader and reflect badly on the author.

I regard Zionists to be part of the problem in the Middle East, simple as. I would no more give a Zionist the time of day than I would an Islamist. Both are too tightly bound by their own ideals to operate in a realistic and reasonable manner.

It wasn't specifcially focused at you, though parts of it were intended to address a point you were attempting to make.

On other issues, Sly, I've got nothing but respect for you. But on this one, I have to call 'em like I see 'em. You cannot equate Zionism and Islamic extremism. David Ben Gurion never dreamed of the day of one world, all Jewish, all run from Jerusalem, and he certainly never made speeches about a world free from muslims or declaring that Arabs are descended from pigs. I'm not saying he was an angel, or that I agree with what he and the other Zionists did. But they're not even in the same sport, let alone league as the Islamic extremists, or the Pan Arabist movement for that matter.

With regards to the strikeouts, they were not specifically directed at you. But I do see a strong correlation between anti-Israeli sentiments and anti-Jewish sentiments. Again, not in your case. If you look hard enough, you'll see the walls between the two break down in the very discussion that preceeded my post. I have found that while being anti-Jew may not be socially acceptable, being anti-Israeli certainly is and many cover their former feelings up by attributing them to the latter. Again, this portion of my post was not directed at you, if you look through the thread, I began the convention prior to your post.

In many ways, the people that rant and rave about Israel but say they have nothing against Jews remind me of whites in the American south during the civil rights movement... "I've got no problems with black people. Some of my favorite people are black. I just don't know why they have to go around stirring up all this trouble with talk about voting and riding on busses and such". Sure, they would tell you that they're not racist, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.

[Watchman]

You presumably conscious ignorance of the developements already long before '48 amazes me slightly, Goof.

[Proletariat]

Do you try speaking that way to people in real life, Watchman?

[Watchman]

Sometimes, yes.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You presumably conscious ignorance of the developements already long before '48 amazes me slightly, Goof.

You presumably conscious ignorance of Goofs knowledge on the topic amazes me slightly Watchman :laugh4:

[Incongruous]

A "warmongering nation?"

In the first month of Israel's existence, it was invaded by every one of its Arab neighbors, whose goal was the eradication and/or enslavement of every Jew in Israel.

But I guess you're right. Israel is the source of all the trouble in the middle east. If those Arabs has been able to finish the the job back in '48, the region would no doubt be a Judenfrei paradise of islamic love and tolerance right now.

You don't think that the terror tactics and conquest employed by the zionists before they declared themselves a nation might be the root of the problem?
Isreal should never had been allowed to exist.

[Watchman]

You presumably conscious ignorance of Goofs knowledge on the topic amazes me slightly Watchman :laugh4:Hey, I work by what I see posted. I don't maintain a database on you guys after all.

Although looking at it, "ignoring" would seem to work better than "ignorance". Ah, the joys of hindsight. :shame:

[Don Corleone]

You don't think that the terror tactics and conquest employed by the zionists before they declared themselves a nation might be the root of the problem?
Isreal should never had been allowed to exist.

Question for you, Bopa... you're in Hungary, correct?

[Incongruous]

Question for you, Bopa... you're in Hungary, correct?

No, I'm in NZ.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You don't think that the terror tactics and conquest employed by the zionists before they declared themselves a nation might be the root of the problem?


No. They pale in comparison to arab terrorism.


Isreal should never had been allowed to exist.

Nor Iraq or Jordan or Palestine right? What makes Israel different?


Hey, I work by what I see posted. I don't maintain a database on you guys after all.


Well then how about asking him a direct question on the matter. I havent seen him post in this thread on develpoments prior to 48. Please take us back in time my friend and lets hash this out.


Hey, I work by what I see posted. I don't maintain a database on you guys after all.


I think you will find that Goof is one of the most educated people on this matter and one of the most vociverous for Israel along with myself.

[Incongruous]

No. They pale in comparison to arab terrorism.



Nor Iraq or Jordan or Palestine right? What makes Israel different?



Well then how about asking him a direct question on the matter. I havent seen him post in this thread on develpoments prior to 48. Please take us back in time my friend and lets hash this out.



I think you will find that Goof is one of the most educated people on this matter and one of the most vociverous for Israel along with myself.

Rubbish Gawain, nothing the Arabs have ever done can compare to what Israel has done. Remember me telling you about Sharon and his little escapade in Lebanon with those Christian extemists?
Or about Israelis not allowing pregnant palestinian women get through roadblocks, meaning they have to traverse difficult hilly terrain to get to a hospital?
Or about Israeli snipers in the Gaza Strip driving through Palestinian homes for no apparent gain? Vandalizing (in a most disturbing way) a Palestinian school?
Shooting an old women on her way to a hospital?
This to me does not sound like the actions of a civilized democracy, it sounds like a warmongering nation led by War Criminals. Israel commits terror on a far larger scale, under th guise of defence and an army of a recognised state.

[ajaxfetish]

Rubbish Gawain, nothing the Arabs have ever done can compare to what Israel has done. Remember me telling you about Sharon and his little escapade in Lebanon with those Christian extemists?
Or about Israelis not allowing pregnant palestinian women get through roadblocks, meaning they have to traverse difficult hilly terrain to get to a hospital?
Or about Israeli snipers in the Gaza Strip driving through Palestinian homes for no apparent gain? Vandalizing (in a most disturbing way) a Palestinian school?
Shooting an old women on her way to a hospital?
This to me does not sound like the actions of a civilized democracy, it sounds like a warmongering nation led by War Criminals. Israel commits terror on a far larger scale, under th guise of defence and an army of a recognised state.
All terrible, to be sure. Not to be sanctioned, no doubt. But I'm not sure how you can claim that the Arabs have done nothing to compare with it.

Ajax

[Incongruous]

Fine give me something which the Palestinians have done to compare.
Remeber it was the zionists who first brought terrorism to the middle east.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Rubbish Gawain, nothing the Arabs have ever done can compare to what Israel has done. Remember me telling you about Sharon and his little escapade in Lebanon with those Christian extemists?


Your right . With your first example youve shown that it was they who are at fault. Sharon did this before all the Arabs invaded Israel right? :no:


Or about Israelis not allowing pregnant palestinian women get through roadblocks, meaning they have to traverse difficult hilly terrain to get to a hospital?


Now why are there roadblocks? Of course no Palestinian woman would ever think of killing herself in the name of Alah. :skull:

Look no one claims the Israelis are saints but they have good cause for all the rest of things you mention here.


All terrible, to be sure. Not to be sanctioned, no doubt. But I'm not sure how you can claim that the Arabs have done nothing to compare with it.


Exactly. In fact they make the Israelis look like noobs in this game. It is they who always keep the violence going.


This to me does not sound like the actions of a civilized democracy, it sounds like a warmongering nation led by War Criminals. Israel commits terror on a far larger scale, under th guise of defence and an army of a recognised state.
Today 21:42


Then you need a dose of reality.

[Goofball]

Rubbish Gawain, nothing the Arabs have ever done can compare to what Israel has done.

Making a statement dealing in such positive, black and white, absolutes (especially the use of the words "nothing" and "ever") demonstrates that you have very little understanding of the situation.

All but the most extreme zealots on either side of this argument will concede that both sides have been guilty of terrible acts, and that the conflict has painted neither the Arabs nor Israelis in a particularly flattering light.

I am staunchly pro-Israel, for reasons that I have stated many times. But I would never presume to state that Israel has not at times been heavy-handed, unjust, and sometimes even driven by nothing more than a simple need for revenge in this conflict.

But here is the difference between you and me (at least as it pertains to this discussion):

I am pro-Israel, in that I believe that Israel has a right to exist, but I am not anti-Arab.

You are pro-Arab, but because you believe that for the Arabs (and, apparently, the entire world) to gain, Israel must cease to exist, you are also anti-Israel.

Now I wonder, whose position sounds more reasonable?

And Watchman, there is a difference between ignorance and disagreement. I have read quite a bit about the history of the region prior to 1948. My readings have consisted of Israeli propaganda, Arab propaganda, and sources that claim to be unbiased. What I have found so far is that when it comes to this issue, just about everything that has ever been published is slanted one way or the other.

My reading has left me with the overall opinion that the Jews/Israelis were more victims than villains in this tragedy.

Obviously, your reading has led you to a different conclusion. I neither blame you nor think you any sort of an idiot or ignoramous for having reached a different conclusion than I did.

I would ask that you extend me the same courtesy.

:bow:

[Watchman]

For one merry bunch I like to bring up as a fine example of just what level of nutjobs there were around in Palestine, here's the Wiki entry on the Lehi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29) or "Stern Gang" as they're often called. Jolly bunch.

[ajaxfetish]

Fine give me something which the Palestinians have done to compare.
Remeber it was the zionists who first brought terrorism to the middle east.
From a brief look at Wikipedia:

The ambush of the Avavim school bus in 1970 by the DFLP, in which three adults and nine children were killed by machine gun fire and nineteen other children seriously wounded.

The murder of 11 top Israeli athletes at the 1972 Munich Olympics by Black September.

The attack on the Maalot elementary school by the DFLP in 1974, in which they killed 21 children and 5 adults.

The 2001 suicide bombing of a disco in Tel Aviv, killing 21 Israelis, mostly teenagers, and injuring over 100.

The 2001 bombing of a Jerusalem restaurant, killing 7 children and 8 adults.

The 2002 bombing of a passover celebration in Netanya, killing 30 and injuring about 140, many of them holocaust survivors.

The 2002 bombing of an Israeli Arab restaurant in Matza, killing 15 including 2 entire families.

The attempted use of a 12-year-old, and one week later, a 16-year-old, as suicide bombers at a military checkpoint near Nablus in 2005. More recently the use of women as suicide bombers.

I'd go on, but I'm getting both tired and depressed. There's the tip of the iceberg anyway. No, what the Israelis have done has not been pretty. The Palestinians have been just as bad.

Ajax

[Watchman]

And Watchman, there is a difference between ignorance and disagreement. I have read quite a bit about the history of the region prior to 1948. My readings have consisted of Israeli propaganda, Arab propaganda, and sources that claim to be unbiased. What I have found so far is that when it comes to this issue, just about everything that has ever been published is slanted one way or the other.

My reading has left me with the overall opinion that the Jews/Israelis were more victims than villains in this tragedy.

Obviously, your reading has led you to a different conclusion. I neither blame you nor think you any sort of an idiot or ignoramous for having reached a different conclusion than I did.

I would ask that you extend me the same courtesy.

:bow:Put like that, naturally. :bow: Put in the somewhat... curt form which I originally adressed... :shifty:

I'm well enough familiar with the horrid treatment the Jews have received (from Christian Europeans mainly) to quite sympathize with the idea of a state or land of their own where they wouldn't be constantly persecuted and harassed. I just find it somewhat... rude to go build it somewhere someone else is already living, and when that someone doesn't quite agree on you moving into his flat, driving him out with violence and leaving him out in the cold to starve.
If you see what I mean.

I also sort of fail to see where the Arabs didn't have just as good as if not even better claim for a state on that same piece of real estate.

[Kanamori]

In the spirit of derailing this thread, isn't it a tad ironic that Israel was meant to be a safe haven for Jews after WWII, and it's surrounded by people who want to blow it up... Jews from all over the world gather there, and they've been tricked somehow into wanting to live in a country where they'll get bombed all the time... what a great way to say sorry.

[Don Corleone]

No, I'm in NZ.

You ought to ask yourself if you have any right to be, in light of the way the Maori were treated. Does New Zealand have a right to exist?

I'm not saying that you don't. I'm saying it's virtually impossible to find any corner of the globe where somebody displaced somebody. All you can do is agree to get along now. This is why most people, Israel included, support a 2-state solution.

Saying "Israel stole the land from the Palestinians, all should die" is no different than saying "New Zealand stole the land from the Maori, all must die" or "America stole the land from the Sioux, all must die". Compromise, my friend, compromise.

[Watchman]

Exactly. In fact they make the Israelis look like noobs in this game. It is they who always keep the violence going.
Uh... Gawain, I'm pretty sure that back in the day it was Zionist militants who very much taught the Arabs the ropes in this sort of nasty business.

[Watchman]

In the spirit of derailing this thread, isn't it a tad ironic that Israel was meant to be a safe haven for Jews after WWII, and it's surrounded by people who want to blow it up... Jews from all over the world gather there, and they've been tricked somehow into wanting to live in a country where they'll get bombed all the time... what a great way to say sorry.Not to forget the state has pretty much single-handedly done away with the once decent enough Muslim-Jewish relations the world over.

A somewhat strange way to improve your persecuted people's lot IMO - once one big monotheistic world-religion finally gets off your case, pick a fight with the other which has thus far been friendly enough...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And thats but the tip of the Iceberg.

Arab riots of 1920-1921? (http://palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1920-21.php)

Arab riots of 1929? (http://palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1929.php)

Arab Revolt of 1936-39? (http://palestinefacts.org/pf_mandate_riots_1936-39.php)


The day after the UN partition resolution of November 29, 1947, violence against Jewish civilians began to escalate. The Arabs declared a protest strike and instigated riots that claimed the lives of 62 Jews and 32 Arabs. By the end of the second week, 93 Arabs, 84 Jews and 7 Englishmen had been killed and scores injured. From November 30, 1947 to February 1, 1948 427 Arabs, 381 Jews and 46 British were killed and 1,035 Arabs, 725 Jews and 135 British were wounded. In March alone, 271 Jews and 257 Arabs died in Arab attacks and Jewish counter#attacks. These were not military operations, but terrorism against civilian targets intended to achieve political aims for the Arabs who were dissatisfied with the United Nations partition plan.

In February 1948 there was a bombing on the 1st in Jerusalem against the Palestine Post building (later renamed the The Jerusalem Post) which killed six people and injured dozens. Then on February 22nd, three booby-trapped trucks positioned in Ben-Yehuda Street exploded, destroying four large buildings, killing 50 and injuring more than 100. On March 11, a car bomb exploded in the courtyard of the Jewish Agency building, killing 12 people, injuring 44, and causing extensive damage.

Arab acts of hostility prior to statehood reached their peak in March. Arabs controlled all the inter-urban routes. The road to Jerusalem was blocked, settlements in the Galilee and the Negev were also cut off and daily attacks were perpetrated on convoys. In the four months after the UN resolution, some 850 Jews were killed throughout the country, most of them in Jerusalem or on the road to the city.

On April 13, 1948, Arabs set mines in the road in the Sheik Jarrah area to block a convoy of 10 vehicles -- trucks, buses and ambulances -- carrying supplies, nurses, doctors, scientists, and patients to Hadassah Hospital on Mount Scopus. In the attack, 78 were killed and their bodies mutilated. Dozens are wounded. British soldiers delayed intervention in the attack for 6 hours while the killing continued. The hospital was cut off from Israel until it was recovered after the Six Day War in June 1967.

The largest Arab atrocity of the war was on May 13, 1948, the massacre of dozens of surrendering defenders, including some twenty women, at Kfar Etzion in the Etzion Bloc of settlements (Gush Etzion) just north of Hebron, in the territory allocated to the Arabs under the UN partition plan. The Etzion Bloc had already seen a massacre in January 1947 when a Haganah platoon of 35 soldiers sent to help them with medical supplies and ammunition was massacred by hundreds of Arab militants. Their stripped, mutilated bodies were found the next day by a British patrol.

The final battle for Gush Etzion took place between May 12-14, 1948. Massive, heavily armed enemy forces overran the Jewish positions. A handful of exhausted defenders, equipped only with light arms and very little ammunition could not withstand the attacking forces. On Thursday, May 13th, Kfar Etzion fell, its defenders killed, most of them slaughtered by Arab rioters after the collapse of the defense. Gush Etzion was destroyed in the aftermath -- everything of value was removed, then the buildings were reduced to rubble. Hundreds of thousands of trees in the orchards -- individually planted by the Jewish farmers -- were uprooted.

I could go on and on and on and on and on and on .

[Goofball]

For one merry bunch I like to bring up as a fine example of just what level of nutjobs there were around in Palestine, here's the Wiki entry on the Lehi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lehi_%28group%29) or "Stern Gang" as they're often called. Jolly bunch.

From your own article:


Lehi was guided by spiritual and philosophical leaders such as Uri Zvi Greenberg (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uri_Zvi_Greenberg) and Israel Eldad (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_Eldad). The smallest by far of any of the Jewish armed groups during the mandatory era, it never attracted more than a few hundred followers, and was reviled by most of its contemporaries.

Aren't you one of the members of the chorus who love to sing the "don't paint all Palestinians with the terrorist brush" song? Yet here you are trying to do the same thing to the Israelis by putting forth that a fringe terrorist organization is somehow representative of Israel as a whole.

So, just to do a bit of summing up:

Israeli terrorist organization is at odds with the Israeli government and Israeli population in general.

Arab terrorist organization is elected by popular majority to be the legitimate government of Palestine.

Things that make you say "hmmmmm....."

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Uh... Gawain, I'm pretty sure that back in the day it was Zionist militants who very much taught the Arabs the ropes in this sort of nasty business.

And Im pretty sure you are wrong.

[ShadeHonestus]

Enjoying this discussion/thread immensely as of late and contributions by all sides, very educational. :book:

[KrooK]

OK someone here mentioned some terrorist attacks.

SO let's reply because Jews were not so spectacular but much more successful.

22.07.1946 - King Dawid hotel, Jerusalem -good jewish attack
14.02.1948 - one of bravest actions of Jewish army. 2 Arab houses with 60 civilians destroyed.
04.1948 Deir Jassin - Jews showed Palestinians that they want live into peace. Methods seems to be similar to SS
Heres some of villages, where Jews murdered most of citizens. I didn't mentioned attacks with less than 40 casualties.
Naser Al-Din , Al-Szejk , Dahmash , Kibja (that village did personally Ariel Szaron)

As a result into 1948 - 650.000 people force to leave their homes because Jews wanted etnically clear territory. Most of them settled into camps, made children, who became terrorists ( I wonder why :))

1956 - peaceful Israel attack bloody Egipt
1981 - Israel decide that old-jewish territory (Golan hills ) should be Jewish again.

1982-2000 - Israeli brave army attack Empire of Evil - Lebanon.
During that 3000 civilians killed by Jewish and Christian formations. Jewish army gave them guns and flashlights (don't waste night when killing :D)
20.05.1990 - Ojon Qara - brave jewish soldiers killed 20 cilivians - for fun
Here I must say that Jew behave exactly like SS soldier into Ghetto.
And there were guy into Auschwitz who loved kill some people each day - for fun.

25.02.1994 Ibrahima - another innocent Jew kills 61 people into Hebron.
2006 - -||- . Just by mistake Jewish bullets don't hit Hezbollah. Destroyed was Lebanon infrastructure. No country into Middle East can be economically equal to Israel!!!

I wonder what could you do guys. You are living in your home. Your family lives there for 1900 years. And then someone came and build his home on your field. When you protest, he uses gun, kill half of your family and force you to leave your home. Why? Because 2000 years later his ancestors lived there. No matter, that they left that place.
I wonder if you would be happy. I personally would fight.

And what really annoys me about Jews is that when someone tell that they commit war crime, they reply;
-But we survived holocaust.
And when you tell..
-OK but now you are making holocaust and slowly killing Palestinians as nation
They reply
-But this can't be compared.

[Boyar Son]

That "peaceful isreal atacks bloody egypt" is about the six years war?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

22.07.1946 - King Dawid hotel, Jerusalem -good jewish attack


An attack on British headquaters in the region . They were also warned to evacuate it.


As a result into 1948 - 650.000 people force to leave their homes because Jews wanted etnically clear territory. Most of them settled into camps, made children, who became terrorists ( I wonder why :))

How many Muslims live in Israel? How many Jews live the surrounding nations?


1956 - peaceful Israel attack bloody Egipt

Peacfeul? Didnt the Israelis have some allies? Why did they attack?

Wow you left out the 67 war :laugh4:


Israel decide that old-jewish territory (Golan hills ) should be Jewish again.

Yeah theyhad a meeting and decided they would just like to have it back lol. Of course the fact that Syria had been shelling Israel from there for decades has nothing to do with it or that there was a war being fought.


1982-2000 - Israeli brave army attack Empire of Evil - Lebanon.
During that 3000 civilians killed by Jewish and Christian formations. Jewish army gave them guns and flashlights (don't waste night when killing :D)


Why?


I wonder what could you do guys. You are living in your home. Your family lives there for 1900 yearsAnd then someone came and build his home on your field. When you protest, he uses gun, kill half of your family and force you to leave your home. Why? Because 2000 years later his ancestors lived there. No matter, that they left that place.


That might have happpened to both of them :laugh4: You dor ealise how few arabs lived in Israel for 1900 hundred years? And how many of those owned the land? And waht of the millions of Jews around the ME who have been driven from their homes. Who have lived as second class citizens in these countries for centuries few as there are. How is it that Israel has taken all the Jewish refugees in ,an amount that is larger than that of Palestinian refugees?


I wonder if you would be happy. I personally would fight.


Not if I didnt own the land. How is it though this doesnt apply to the Jews who live there? They actually owned the land and many had lived there longer.


-OK but now you are making holocaust and slowly killing Palestinians as nation


The Palestinians are a culture of death. They are their own worst enemies. They are killing themselves. Isnt that whats meant by suicide?

[Watchman]

The Palestinians are a culture of death. They are their own worst enemies. They are killing themselves. Isnt that whats meant by suicide?Racist much ?

[Husar]

20.05.1990 - Ojon Qara - brave jewish soldiers killed 20 cilivians - for fun
Seriously, such things happen almost everywhere, there are even civilians all around the world who kill for fun, we call them murderers. Doesn't make it any better, but to pass it as something only Jews and Nazis do is simply wrong, not every Nazi was a Nazi because he liked to kill people and not every Jew is a jew for that reason, you're also generalizing a lot again.
And why are you saying jews when you're showing us a list of things Israelis(or those who later became israelis) did?

If you think that's ok, then just assume that I hate you because all Poles want to steal my job...:sweatdrop:
(And to clarify that right away, no, I do not hate you. ~;) )

[Watchman]

I'm pretty sure Israeli Arabs can be largely assumed to not have played great part in most of that stuff...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Racist much ?

Noot in the least.I just go by facts. And no there are Im sure many fine Palestinians. Unfortunaly they are the silent who knows what?

[AntiochusIII]

Noot in the least.I just go by facts. And no there are Im sure many fine Palestinians. Unfortunaly they are the silent who knows what?lol.

Evil Palestinian scums don't know when to quit and die off eh. :balloon:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Evil Palestinian scums don't know when to quit and die off eh

Maybe thats your take on it. Mines they dont know when to quit and live. Again Im sure there are many fine Palestinians. Just too many of them have been brain washed. The radicals rule.

[Slyspy]

It wasn't specifcially focused at you, though parts of it were intended to address a point you were attempting to make.

On other issues, Sly, I've got nothing but respect for you. But on this one, I have to call 'em like I see 'em. You cannot equate Zionism and Islamic extremism. David Ben Gurion never dreamed of the day of one world, all Jewish, all run from Jerusalem, and he certainly never made speeches about a world free from muslims or declaring that Arabs are descended from pigs. I'm not saying he was an angel, or that I agree with what he and the other Zionists did. But they're not even in the same sport, let alone league as the Islamic extremists, or the Pan Arabist movement for that matter.

With regards to the strikeouts, they were not specifically directed at you. But I do see a strong correlation between anti-Israeli sentiments and anti-Jewish sentiments. Again, not in your case. If you look hard enough, you'll see the walls between the two break down in the very discussion that preceeded my post. I have found that while being anti-Jew may not be socially acceptable, being anti-Israeli certainly is and many cover their former feelings up by attributing them to the latter. Again, this portion of my post was not directed at you, if you look through the thread, I began the convention prior to your post.

In many ways, the people that rant and rave about Israel but say they have nothing against Jews remind me of whites in the American south during the civil rights movement... "I've got no problems with black people. Some of my favorite people are black. I just don't know why they have to go around stirring up all this trouble with talk about voting and riding on busses and such". Sure, they would tell you that they're not racist, but that doesn't necessarily make it so.


Zionists are the extreme wing of the Israeli nation, and as such are a hinderance in the search for peace just as much as the Palestinian radicals.

The only time I have stated a belief that Zionists and Islamists are the same is when I stated that I have no time for either. Both are, IMO, people to be held in contempt for neither truely help their people though both claim to do so.

Secondly to assume correlation between anti-Israel and anti-Jew is to assume too much IMO. You may suspect it, but to assume as you have done here is not. I'll agree that some posts here have made such sentiment clear, but to assume such a meaning for other posts criticising Israel is not healthy.

Further to suggest that to criticise Israel is to be anti-Israel is simple paranoia. I'll criticise Israel all I like (for all the good it does!). This does not mean that I wish it to be wiped off the map as I surely would if I was anti-Israel.

Nor does it suggest that I favour their enemies or that I have a hatred of their ethnic group. I may distrust Israel as an unreliable ally but this does not mean that I distrust Jews as a group.

Of course I can only speak for myself, but I suggest to you (especially in the light of your recent thread on The Troubles) that the world really isn't as black and white as all that.

[Slyspy]

I'm pretty sure Israeli Arabs can be largely assumed to not have played great part in most of that stuff...

You'd think so wouldn't you but I'd bet that some of the soldiers involved in some of these incidents were Arabs. Bedouins most likely, not sure whether they would be Israeli citizens.

[Tribesman]

How many Muslims live in Israel? How many Jews live the surrounding nations?

Good point Gawain .
That country to the south , what terrorist attacks on what targets led to the expulsion of most of the Jewish inhabitants ?
The bloke who took the blame said it was blamed on him because he was the wrong sort of "jew" didn't he

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That country to the south , what terrorist attacks on what targets led to the expulsion of most of the Jewish inhabitants ?
The bloke who took the blame said it was blamed on him because he was the wrong sort of "jew" didn't he

How many Jews are allowed to live in Palestine or Jordan accordding to agreements signed? They never were.

[Tribesman]

How many Jews are allowed to live in Palestine or Jordan accordding to agreements signed? They never were.
errrrrr...according to agreements signed by Israel and Jordan refugees will be allowed to return as part of a full peace settlement . So the Jordanian Jewish refugees can return when the Palestinian refugees are can return .
Or were you thinking of an agreement that only exists in your mind ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

errrrrr...according to agreements signed by Israel and Jordan refugees will be allowed to return as part of a full peace settlement .
Ever hear of this? Jordanian Nationality Law no. 6 of 1954? How many Jews lived in Trans Jordan in 1946?

[Tribesman]

How many Jews lived in Trans Jordan in 1946?

Do you mean Jordanian Jews or Syrian/Lebanese Jews ?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Do you mean Jordanian Jews or Syrian/Lebanese Jews ?


Take your pick and what of the law i asked about?

[Tribesman]

what of the law i asked about?
superceded by article 8 of the peace agreement .have a clue on the English language Gawain , an agreement means two or more parties are involved , what you are on about doesn't involve two parties .

Take your pick
thats a rather silly thing to say since Churchill put a ban on settlement years before , the only jewish population in transjordan was of syrian/lebanese citizenship

[Gawain of Orkeny]

superceded by article 8 of the peace agreement .have a clue on the English language Gawain , an agreement means two or more parties are involved , what you are on about doesn't involve two parties .


Do you know what "were " means?


thats a rather silly thing to say since Churchill put a ban on settlement years before

But didnt you say that Jews were allowed in Trans Jordan? Or was it Jordan. Either way there were none so how can they return?

[PanzerJaeger]

.have a clue on the English language Gawain ,


:laugh4:

You make great points, but you of all people shouldnt be lecturing others on the English language! :beam:

[Tribesman]

Do you know what "were " means?

yep can you remember what you wrote ?:no:

But didnt you say that Jews were allowed in Trans Jordan? Or was it Jordan.
can you remember what I wrote ?:no:


Either way there were none so how can they return?
errrrr.....wrong ..try again .It has to do with who was where , where they came from , what citizenship they had and what rules governed which parts of which mandates

[KrooK]

TO express how many Israeli Arabs commited war crimes as a members of Israeli army;

If I remember it well Israeli Arabs didn't serve into army. They were allowed to join as volunteers since about 2000 year.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Just a reminder in this mostly interesting and illuminating thread that posters should strive to avoid personal insults and insinuations of ignorance.

For those who may be missing an edit button, it is always good practice to review your post for possible misunderstanding before pressing SUBMIT.

Thank you kindly.

:bow:

[Incongruous]

You ought to ask yourself if you have any right to be, in light of the way the Maori were treated. Does New Zealand have a right to exist?

I'm not saying that you don't. I'm saying it's virtually impossible to find any corner of the globe where somebody displaced somebody. All you can do is agree to get along now. This is why most people, Israel included, support a 2-state solution.

Saying "Israel stole the land from the Palestinians, all should die" is no different than saying "New Zealand stole the land from the Maori, all must die" or "America stole the land from the Sioux, all must die". Compromise, my friend, compromise.

Fine then Don, just try and shut down any argument there is for the sake of seeming smart and delivering a "slam dunk".
Yeah well guess what there's something called the Traety of Waitangi, I was once against but over time I have become very for it. We have never allowed a bunch of hateful zealots into a purely Maori area and let them slaughter everyone. So how about you stop trying to "slam dunk" me out of the argument.

To Goofball, you want to argue something, again stop trying to shut me down by insulting my intellegence. :2thumbsup:

Also I believe people have stated (to my knowledge rightly) that it was the Zionists (note not the jews, as I believe many had been living in Palestine for a long time peacfully) whom we can attribute the current violence and terrorism to. They were the ones who threw down the gaunlet, I suppose. I find it hard to respect a nation ( a democracy at that) which uses third world terror tactics, imagine Ireland today if Britain was bombing the crap out of it.
Israel as the nation, has the bigger role to play, it's not playing it. It's acting like a rogue state.

[Redleg]

Fine then Don, just try and shut down any argument there is for the sake of seeming smart and delivering a "slam dunk".
Yeah well guess what there's something called the Traety of Waitangi, I was once against but over time I have become very for it. We have never allowed a bunch of hateful zealots into a purely Maori area and let them slaughter everyone. So how about you stop trying to "slam dunk" me out of the argument.

Never is an absolute statement, one that when one considers the Island was settle by Europeans most likely against the Maori's wishes. Europeans when settling land inhabitated by others often put to rest any use of an absolute term.



Also I believe people have stated (to my knowledge rightly) that it was the Zionists (note not the jews, as I believe many had been living in Palestine for a long time peacfully) whom we can attribute the current violence and terrorism to. They were the ones who threw down the gaunlet, I suppose. I find it hard to respect a nation ( a democracy at that) which uses third world terror tactics, imagine Ireland today if Britain was bombing the crap out of it.
Israel as the nation, has the bigger role to play, it's not playing it. It's acting like a rogue state.

Oh I believe that both sides were using forms of terrorism before the King David Hotel was blown up by the Zionists. Both sides have warped themselves into the state that they are in now,

[Incongruous]

Never is an absolute statement, one that when one considers the Island was settle by Europeans most likely against the Maori's wishes. Europeans when settling land inhabitated by others often put to rest any use of an absolute term.



Oh I believe that both sides were using forms of terrorism before the King David Hotel was blown up by the Zionists. Both sides have warped themselves into the state that they are in now,

Ok here we go, if Israel had sorted itself out, like NZ has done I could accept it as a modern nation. It has gone to the very other end. Israel needs to step up.

You don't think that violence in Palestine may have increased to Zionist incursion? I had always thought the Muslims lived rather peacefully with Jews before.

[Redleg]

Ok here we go, if Israel had sorted itself out, like NZ has done I could accept it as a modern nation. It has gone to the very other end. Israel needs to step up.

Agreed - just as the Palenstine Authority needs to step up and demonstrate that its a viable government for the land that it controls. Then we have the Palestinian actions in Lebanon. The stepping up to the plate for peaceful resolution must be done by both sides.



You don't think that violence in Palestine may have increased to Zionist incursion? I had always thought the Muslims lived rather peacefully with Jews before.

I didn't say the Zionist incursion didn't increace the violence - I stated that both sides were using violence against each other. There was a lot of tit for tat exchanges prior to the King David Hotel Bombing.

[Incongruous]

Agreed - just as the Palenstine Authority needs to step up and demonstrate that its a viable government for the land that it controls. Then we have the Palestinian actions in Lebanon. The stepping up to the plate for peaceful resolution must be done by both sides.



I didn't say the Zionist incursion didn't increace the violence - I stated that both sides were using violence against each other. There was a lot of tit for tat exchanges prior to the King David Hotel Bombing.

Well I believe Israel is by far the more powerfull partner and thus has the higher responsability.

I accept there has been tit for tat, but Israel with the financial and moral backing of the west is able to strike out on a far larger scale than ever Palestinian millitants will.

[Redleg]

Well I believe Israel is by far the more powerfull partner and thus has the higher responsability.

So when Israel begins to act in the higher responsible manner and the attacks continue what do you expect Israel to do? (By the way this is a scenerio that has happened several times.)



I accept there has been tit for tat, but Israel with the financial and moral backing of the west is able to strike out on a far larger scale than ever Palestinian millitants will.

True but one must look at the complete picture. Is a nation suppose to let a terror organization continue to strike your citizens without conducting action against those terrorists?

You will find me in agreement that Israel needs to be a more careful and selective in its response to the attacks - but to ignore the strikes against its citizens is something I would not expect Israel to do.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well I believe Israel is by far the more powerfull partner and thus has the higher responsability.

Whilst this view has some weight, the truth of the matter is that the Palestinian people could have by far the most moral power.

If they forced their leadership to stop the internal and external violence, and had they adopted non-violent resistance against the Israeli occupiers, they would be in a far more powerful position.

Israel for all her faults, is a democracy, with a healthy diversity of opinion. Even left-wing Israelis however, are not about to sacrifice their country to the kind of madness we currently see the Palestinians indulging in.

Palestinians can never win their aims militarily. All they can do is die endlessly and pointlessly for the gratification of madmen and crooks. If they laid down their arms and used the same courage to stand up peacefully against aggression and occupation, whilst some may still die, eventually that non-violent courage would gain them many friends, shame their enemies, and deliver their homeland.

And it would be a place of peace, alongside and in partnership with a peaceful Israel.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Whilst this view has some weight, the truth of the matter is that the Palestinian people could have by far the most moral power.

If they forced their leadership to stop the internal and external violence, and had they adopted non-violent resistance against the Israeli occupiers, they would be in a far more powerful position.

Israel for all her faults, is a democracy, with a healthy diversity of opinion. Even left-wing Israelis however, are not about to sacrifice their country to the kind of madness we currently see the Palestinians indulging in.

Palestinians can never win their aims militarily. All they can do is die endlessly and pointlessly for the gratification of madmen and crooks. If they laid down their arms and used the same courage to stand up peacefully against aggression and occupation, whilst some may still die, eventually that non-violent courage would gain them many friends, shame their enemies, and deliver their homeland.

And it would be a place of peace, alongside and in partnership with a peaceful Israel.

Ive tried to say the same thing countless times but never put it as well as you just did. :2thumbsup:

[Slyspy]

And it would be a place of peace, alongside and in partnership with a peaceful Israel.

I doubt that. Things never seem to turn out this way.

[ajaxfetish]

Ok here we go, if Israel had sorted itself out, like NZ has done I could accept it as a modern nation. It has gone to the very other end. Israel needs to step up.
I may be wrong here, but I don't think the Maori's fail to recognize New Zealand's right to exist, or operate from a platform that all non-natives must die or leave. Nor do the Maori's have numerous neighboring countries that share that sentiment and vastly outnumber the European settlers. My point is, it was a little easier for NZ to sort itself out due to the context. Israel's got a tougher time of it. Zionism hasn't helped make it any easier, to be sure, but keep in mind that they're fighting an uphill battle for survival. While in particular instances of IDF vs. Palestinians, the Israelis certainly have the upper hand, in the big picture their place isn't nearly so secure or superior.

Ajax

[Incongruous]

I may be wrong here, but I don't think the Maori's fail to recognize New Zealand's right to exist, or operate from a platform that all non-natives must die or leave. Nor do the Maori's have numerous neighboring countries that share that sentiment and vastly outnumber the European settlers. My point is, it was a little easier for NZ to sort itself out due to the context. Israel's got a tougher time of it. Zionism hasn't helped make it any easier, to be sure, but keep in mind that they're fighting an uphill battle for survival. While in particular instances of IDF vs. Palestinians, the Israelis certainly have the upper hand, in the big picture their place isn't nearly so secure or superior.

Ajax

Ok I going to make a guess here.
You do not believe that the actuall creation of Israel was a bad thing and should never of happened. I do. I'm just trying to understand you're position.

[Kralizec]

TO express how many Israeli Arabs commited war crimes as a members of Israeli army;

If I remember it well Israeli Arabs didn't serve into army. They were allowed to join as volunteers since about 2000 year.

Correction, Druzhe Arabs do serve in the Israeli army (and they were a pretty significant asset in the last Israel-Libanon war I recall), other muslim denominations don't AFAIK.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You do not believe that the actuall creation of Israel was a bad thing and should never of happened.

You do not believe that the actual creation of Iraq, Jordan and Palestine was a bad thing and should never of happened?

[Incongruous]

You do not believe that the actual creation of Iraq, Jordan and Palestine was a bad thing and should never of happened?

?:help:
You trying to be smart, Gawain? Where are you going with this?

[Tribesman]

You trying to be smart, Gawain? Where are you going with this?
Thats an easy one , in each case some locals got severely screwed over

[Gawain of Orkeny]

None were nations before the British and French set up all these countries around the ME. How is it only Jews cant have a state there. The arabs have over 90% of Palestine and still they bitch. You would think they would be glad the jews left their countries and all moved to little old Israel. I wonder how many of you realize just how tiny this nation is.

The blame here belongs squarely on you Europeans who set this whole thing in motion, They did a pretty poor job on Iraq as well dont you think?

[ShadeHonestus]

The blame here belongs squarely on you Europeans who set this whole thing in motion, They did a pretty poor job on Iraq as well dont you think?

You wouldn't be referring to the complete puppet of the British and his government falling to that one party which had direct ties to the Nazi's would you? Some of their members actually serving under the Nazi's in the Balkans I believe. Saddam's uncle being one of the core members and all that jazz...

[Incongruous]

None were nations before the British and French set up all these countries around the ME. How is it only Jews cant have a state there. The arabs have over 90% of Palestine and still they bitch. You would think they would be glad the jews left their countries and all moved to little old Israel. I wonder how many of you realize just how tiny this nation is.

The blame here belongs squarely on you Europeans who set this whole thing in motion, They did a pretty poor job on Iraq as well dont you think?

I don't think that it was the Jews cannot have a state, so much as how dare zionists steal one from seemingly peaceful people. Then have the audacity to say they have the moral high ground. Not only that, but the Palestinians are constantly reviled by the West as being terrorists. The Israeli's are terrorists but on a massive scale. For God's sake they were lead by a war criminal.
You going to tell me to get a reality check again Gawain?
Save it.

[Tribesman]

How is it only Jews cant have a state there.
Because the deal was that nothing could be done about creating a Jewish state without the agreement of the locals .
In case you didn't notice the locals didn't agree to it .

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Because the deal was that nothing could be done about creating a Jewish state without the agreement of the locals .

Seems we have different interpretations. Did the UN partion Palestine or not? How about the British.

[Incongruous]

Seems we have different interpretations. Did the UN partion Palestine or not? How about the British.

Ok Gawain, have the Israeli's ever acted within the bounds of the UN?
No they are effectivley a rogue state, whom have helped out in a mass murder. Israel pretty much takes the proverbial piss out of the UN and I feel the rest of the world that does put stock into it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Ok Gawain, have the Israeli's ever acted within the bounds of the UN?

Im sure they have somewhere :laugh4:

Have the Palestinians or the Iranians or the Iraqis or the Syrians?


No they are effectivley a rogue state

Ah so the UN doesnt recognize them as a state but it does Palestine. I must be going crazy. I thought it was the other way around .

[Incongruous]

Im sure they have somewhere :laugh4:

Have the Palestinians or the Iranians or the Iraqis or the Syrians?



Ah so the UN doesnt recognize them as a state but it does Palestine. I must be going crazy. I thought it was the other way around .

Do the palestinians have the honor of being recognised by the west?
Iranians, Syrians and Israelis? Yep sounds good, lets keep that list.

When did I ever state that Israel was not recognised by the UN?
I said it was a rogue state, not that that equated with not being part of the UN.

So how about you come back to the argument?

[Tribesman]

Seems we have different interpretations. Did the UN partion Palestine or not?
Nope , the State of Israel has never existed within the boundaries of the UN partition plan . The UN plan was built on the declaration and the declaration is very clear ,there is no other interpretation to the declaration , it is very simple in its wording .
So don't bother with your usual trotting out of unagreed and unadopted versions of the declaration as they have no standing whatsoever

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Is Iran a rogue state? Is Syria a rogue state? Was Iraq a rogue state under Saddam? All Israel does is defend its borders. You can call that a rogue action if you like.


August 31: The United Nations Special Committee on Palestine issues its report, which recommends unanimously (all 11 member states voting in favor) that Great Britain terminate their mandate for Palestine and grant it independence at the earliest possible date; and which also recommends by majority vote (7 of the member nations voting in favor) that Palestine be partitioned into Jewish and Arab states.
Ca. November: A subcommittee of the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine establishes a timetable for British withdrawal from Palestine.

November 19: Chaim Weizmann meets with President Truman and argues that the Negev region has great importance to the future Jewish state.

November 24: Secretary of State George Marshall writes to Under Secretary of State Robert Lovett to inform him that British Foreign Secretary Ernest Bevin had told him that British intelligence indicated that Jewish groups moving illegally from the Balkan states to Palestine included many Communists.

November 29: The United Nations General Assembly approves the partition plan for Palestine put forward by the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine. The 1947 UN Partition divided the area into three entities: a Jewish state, an Arab state, and an international zone around Jerusalem.

[Incongruous]

Is Iran a rogue state? Is Syria a rogue state? Was Iraq a rogue state under Saddam? All Israel does is defend its borders. You can call that a rogue action if you like.

As I said keeping Syria, Iran, Iraq and Israel in the same sentence to me, is good:2thumbsup:
Thanks for making that list GAWAIN:yes:

[ShadeHonestus]

Link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UN_General_Assembly_Resolution_181) The history of the plan and the plan itself including its approval by the general assembly. Not to mention the failures led to the Israeli declaration of independence.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And it seems your all leaving out the fact that all its neighbors attacked it as soon as it was born.

Listening to some around here you would think the Jews invaded the place and took it for themselves. That there was never a plan for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.


As I said keeping Syria, Iran, Iraq and Israel in the same sentence to me, is good
Thanks for making that list GAWAIN

Im scared to hell of Jewish terrorists. How about you?

[ShadeHonestus]

And it seems your all leaving out the fact that all its neighbors attacked it as soon as it was born.

Listening to some around here you would think the Jews invaded the place and took it for themselves. That there was never a plan for a Jewish homeland in Palestine.



The only problem I have with this is their treatment of Jerusalem, they would have gone further diplomatically by treating it as plans had proposed. However in their defense at the time, this would have been untenable from a security standpoint.

[Goofball]

To Goofball, you want to argue something, again stop trying to shut me down by insulting my intellegence. :2thumbsup:

Also I believe people have stated (to my knowledge rightly) that it was the Zionists (note not the jews, as I believe many had been living in Palestine for a long time peacfully) whom we can attribute the current violence and terrorism to. They were the ones who threw down the gaunlet, I suppose. I find it hard to respect a nation ( a democracy at that) which uses third world terror tactics, imagine Ireland today if Britain was bombing the crap out of it.
Israel as the nation, has the bigger role to play, it's not playing it. It's acting like a rogue state.

Sorry, but if you interpreted anything I said as an insult to your intelligence, then I submit that the Backroom is not the place for you. Try the Monastery.

You made two statements; the first put all of the blame for the trouble in the middle east at the feet of Israel with no culpability for her Arab neighbors, and the second said that nothing the Palestinians has ever done to the Israelis can compare with the converse.

If you intend to stand by those statements, then I stand by my original assessment of them: they demonstrate a marked lack of understanding of the Israeli/Arab conflict. Anybody who believes that all of the blame can be put on either party in this conflict simply has not looked deeply enough at the situation.

This is not an insult to your intelligence at all, simply a comment on your interpretation of the situation.


As a result into 1948 - 650.000 people force to leave their homes because Jews wanted etnically clear territory. Most of them settled into camps, made children, who became terrorists ( I wonder why :))

This is some of the best doublespeak I have ever seen. Every surrounding Arab nation invades Isreal at once, and you interpret this as Jewish war of ethnic cleansing.

I am loathe to go down this road when having a discussion about Israel, because in most cases it's not true. However given some of the hot, steaming plates of hate you have served up in this thread, combined with the fact that you continually use the term "Jews" rather than "Israelis," I'm afraid that in this case the shoe fits.

You, Krook, are most definitely speaking from a position of Jew hatred, and it is coloring your judgement of this situation. You really have nothing to offer to this discussion worth listening to.

[Tribesman]

Im scared to hell of Jewish terrorists. How about you?

Isn't that funny , until recently your government listed Jewish terrorists based in your own state as the second most dangerous terror group in the US , did you simply forget again or is it very very selective memory loss you have .:dizzy2:


And it seems your all leaving out the fact that all its neighbors attacked it as soon as it was born.

And you leave out that Israel attacked and seized towns that were not allocated to it under the proposed partition plan , it created a refugee problem before it even declared itself into existance .

[PanzerJaeger]

You, Krook, are most definitely speaking from a position of Jew hatred, and it is coloring your judgement of this situation. You really have nothing to offer to this discussion worth listening to.


His shoddy English and irrational hatred of Jews reminds me of Borat, only not funny. :no:

[Goofball]

And you leave out that Israel attacked and seized towns that were not allocated to it under the proposed partition plan , it created a refugee problem before it even declared itself into existance .

How could "Israel" have done this if, as you say, "Israel" didn't even exist yet?

:beam:

Semantics, I know, but as you are the king of semantics, I felt a little hoist by your own petard was appropriate in this case...

[ajaxfetish]

Ok I going to make a guess here.
You do not believe that the actuall creation of Israel was a bad thing and should never of happened. I do. I'm just trying to understand you're position.
I've got very mixed feelings about Israel. It's creation was a slap in the face for the Muslim locals. I do feel the Jews have a legitimate right to a land of their own, considering all the persecution they've faced over the last millennia. I'm not sure it was handled in the best way it could have been, or how it could have been done better.

The issue now is different though. They're there, and they're there to stay. They and their neighbors need to figure out how to live somewhat pleasantly near each other, or they're both going to just suffer more. This will require compromise and effort on both parts, but considering the one side doesn't yet recognize the right of the other to exist, it seems that side has a little further to go before an understanding can be reached. People in other parts of the world have come to terms with introduced populations, including those of your own country. People in other parts of the world have failed to do so, such as in the Balkans. I hope Palestine can go the way of New Zealand instead of Bosnia, but the signs aren't too encouraging so far. Does that clarify my position sufficiently?

Ajax

[Don Corleone]

At a certain point, I consider a debate to be an exchange of ideas. I can certainly learn more about the Arab-Israeli conflict, and frequently have in these debates. I can discuss, rationally, who is more to blame for which particular issue, and who has more giving to do.

But this discussion has served it's purpose. There are people in this argument that I disagree with but respect. I'm pretty sure you know who you are, and once again, it's been a fine discussion.

But the conversation has once again devolved in into a question of the right of a people to exist. Sorry, I see no exchange of ideas in that sort of discussion. If you cannot agree that 4+ million people have a right to exist, there's nothing to discuss. The ratio, nature and timeline of a two-state solution, these are things I can discuss. But I refuse to discuss the right of a people to exist, especially with people that themselves come from groups that displaced former owners on the land they themselves live upon.

But cheer up, Beirut should be joining in on the Pro-Palestinian side any moment. Maybe he'll bring George and Martha along with him.

[Pannonian]

I've got very mixed feelings about Israel. It's creation was a slap in the face for the Muslim locals. I do feel the Jews have a legitimate right to a land of their own, considering all the persecution they've faced over the last millennia. I'm not sure it was handled in the best way it could have been, or how it could have been done better.

The issue now is different though. They're there, and they're there to stay. They and their neighbors need to figure out how to live somewhat pleasantly near each other, or they're both going to just suffer more. This will require compromise and effort on both parts, but considering the one side doesn't yet recognize the right of the other to exist, it seems that side has a little further to go before an understanding can be reached. People in other parts of the world have come to terms with introduced populations, including those of your own country. People in other parts of the world have failed to do so, such as in the Balkans. I hope Palestine can go the way of New Zealand instead of Bosnia, but the signs aren't too encouraging so far. Does that clarify my position sufficiently?

Ajax
Living in the UK, I've seen how money, in sufficient quantities and skilfully applied, can solve centuries-old problems. I've long thought that both Jews and Arabs who live or have lived in the land now known as Israel have a right to that land, but that Israel, as the current occupiers, have the de facto right. But I also think that this seeming mutually incompatible issue of rights can be solved by money - Israel seeks out the former tenants who were forced out in 1948 or afterward, and pays them monetary compensation to help them settle elsewhere in the region, in exchange for giving up their claim to the land. Fair to both sides, and Israel is prosperous enough and the costs of living elsewhere low enough for Israel to afford it, and it would probably be cheaper in the long run.

However, reading other forums, it seems the younger generations of Israelis, not to mention their foreign backers, are as inclined to recognise the right of Palestine to exist as the most intractable of the Palestinians are willing to recognise the existence of Israel. "Palestine doesn't exist, they've never been a nation" is a typical line trotted out. Tenancy claims going back 2000 years are cited to support Jewish claims to the land, but strangely tenancy claims going back 60 years are ignored because they recognise the legitimacy of Arab claims. There is talk about the threat to the Jewish state posed by the Arab birthrate, and talk of incorporating the remaining currently Palestinian land is popular, though not their citizenry.

If these posters I've read are at all representative of the new generation of Israelis, I foresee even harder times for Palestinians ahead, with either their expulsion from the occupied lands to goodness knows where, or the further establishment of an Apartheid system, with Palestinians living inside an expanded Israel but without the rights of "proper" Israelis.

[Incongruous]

My position is that Israel did not have a right to exist as is. Unfortunatley it does. However, they are the occupiers and thus must make the first step.
Essentially what I see to have happened is this.

The Palestinians have been made to suffer due to past European actions and modern feelings of guilt. Thus Israel has been allowed a free hand in Palestine. Well fine, but now the International community needs to reel in the state which it recognises.
The Palestinians are punished for electing into office a group of hardline millitants, fine. The israelis however elect into office war criminals and warmongers, is Israel punished? Where is the standard here?

@Goofball, I said it would be better if Israel never existed, but the fact that it exists does not mean I want to wipe it off the map.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

My position is that Israel did not have a right to exist as is. Unfortunatley it does. However, they are the occupiers and thus must make the first step.

They have more times than you can count.


The Palestinians have been made to suffer due to past European actions and modern feelings of guilt. Thus Israel has been allowed a free hand in Palestine. Well fine, but now the International community needs to reel in the state which it recognises.

Theve been made to suffer because they didnt peacefully accept statehood in 48 like the Israelis and have attacked them ever since. They were never given a freehand. If you know anything of the conflict you know that the British helped the arabs. Nobody helped the Israelis in the 48 war and they still won.

And what would you have the international community do to Israel? What can they do?


The Palestinians are punished for electing into office a group of hardline millitants, fine. The israelis however elect into office war criminals and warmongers, is Israel punished? Where is the standard here?

You do realize that Israel is a democracy ? That its leaders are elected by they people and reflect their mood? They react to whats happening at the time. When Palestinian attacks increase they vote in right wingers . When things calm down they vote in the other party. The election of Sharon is a good example.

Again how would you punish Israel?

And If we are to punish Israel arent there a lot of worse countries we should be punishing?

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I wonder if Lawrence knew what he was getting us all into?

Certainly France and the UK had no intentions of allowing Arab control of the Levant following the defeat of the Ottoman empire. Did Lawrence know this as he fomented his desert army? Did he really believe that control would be ceded to the locals?

It was not, as we all know.

The spectre of a Middle East ruled by the residents thereof -- and for some the re-establishment of the caliphate I suspect -- was thoroughly ignored following the war. I suspect that a number of those residents viewed this as a form of betrayal.

The establishment of a Jewish state, seemingly imposed from without, a scant 30 years later, just as Arabs began to rule themselves, may well have come across as yet another betrayal.

The struggle will continue. All quite sad, really.

Ironic that the primary greeting of both Jew and Muslim is the declaration "peace" isn't it?



Edit: removed...wrong thread (oopsie).

[Tribesman]

Theve been made to suffer because they didnt peacefully accept statehood in 48 like the Israelis
The israelis didn't peacefully accept statehood in 1948.

[KrooK]

Gawain - your explanation about Israel and elections reminds me other nation.

Old, pround and economically powerful -but into temporary crisis. So they elected someone who promised that he would correct situation.
It was Germans and Hitler.

I think similar situation was with Sharon. Situation when Jews ( i don't think Israeli Arabs voted for Sharon) who are electing war criminal shows how poor is Jewish memory. If someone killed innocent jewish civilians, he is beast. If Jew killed innocent Arab civilians, he is just brave defender of his state.

Anyway I can promise you something. When Israel loose war (and trust me - everyone sometimes (edited here) loose), they (another edit) will have to drink that beer.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Old, pround and economically powerful -but into temporary crisis. So they elected someone who promised that he would correct situation.
It was Germans and Hitler.

Your right Hitler was totally elected democraticaly by the German people to be their Furher............NOT.

He seized power.Also there were no elections after he did so. Not a fair analogy at all.

[Kralizec]

Governments aren't elected in parliamentary systems. Hitler did came to power through normal democratic procedure in the Weimar republic. His actions afterwards are a different matter.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

As I said he wasnt elected to be Furher. He was elected to a different office.

[Kralizec]

As I said he wasnt elected to be Furher. He was elected to a different office.

Point being...? KrooK never said he was elected as Fuhrer. Technicly he wasn't even elected as leader of any sort, he and his NSDAP ilk were just voted into the Reichstag in such large numbers that he was able to get the conservatives to form a coalition with him, with him as chancellor. The rest is history.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

.Technicly he wasn't even elected as leader of any sort, he and his NSDAP ilk were just voted into the Reichstag in such large numbers that he was able to get the conservatives to form a coalition with him, with him as chancellor. The rest is history.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. Now dont tell me Krook didnt say that he was . As I said he seized power and on top of that there was never another election held so he didnt represent the will of the German people.

The reason Sharon was elected was the intfatah. Tell me who was PM before that and what did he do? Was he some right wing radical bent on the destruction of palestine? Have all Israeli PMs been war mongers and war criminals?

[Kralizec]

Sharon wasn't elected either, duh.


Governments aren't elected in parliamentary systems.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Sharon wasn't elected either, duh.



Sharon Elected Israeli Prime Minister
(February 6, 2001)

Likud Party leader Ariel Sharon defeated Labor Party candidate Ehud Barak in the special election for prime minister. With 99.9% of the votes counted, Sharon had 62.5% of the vote and Ehud Barak 37.5%. The Israeli Central Election Committee will announce the official results February 13.

Within 45 days of the publication of the election results, the prime minister-elect will present the list of ministers and basic policy guidelines before the Knesset. Incumbent Ehud Barak announced that with the establishment of the new government he will resign as Labor Party head and from the Knesset. Barak will remain prime minister in a caretaker role until Sharon assumes office.

Duh

Sure if you want to get technical we dont elect our president either.

[Kralizec]

I wasn't aware that Israel had a seperate election for the prime minister.

That's not the case in most parliamentary systems though, including Weimar Germany. Our PM Balkenende wasn't elected either, but his party was the largest after the elections putting him in the best position to lead a coalition cabinet. Hitler did grab power, but it was after he got his appointment as Chancellor wich he received in accordance with the law and the same way as his predecessors.

[Goofball]

Since we have now hit page six in this thread I will point out the ironic (yet entirely predictable) twist:

A thread about the armed forces of Lebanon killing Palestinians has now turned into a thread that could be entitled "Israel = teh Nazi" and the title would not be misleading based on actual discussion content.

Simply sublime.

Anyway, this is all secondary to the larger, more pressing issue: How do we, as global citizens, convince Israel to stop causing global warming?

[Incongruous]

Since we have now hit page six in this thread I will point out the ironic (yet entirely predictable) twist:

A thread about the armed forces of Lebanon killing Palestinians has now turned into a thread that could be entitled "Israel = teh Nazi" and the title would not be misleading based on actual discussion content.

Simply sublime.

Anyway, this is all secondary to the larger, more pressing issue: How do we, as global citizens, convince Israel to stop causing global warming?

Yeah that's what it was, Israel= Nazis thread.:laugh4:

[Tribesman]

Oh well , you could have seen this happening .
The Lebanese army/government action has taken a small group with very little support , and by its crazy actions has turned it into a small group with increasing support .
A weak and unpopular fractured government has made itself weaker more fractured and more unpopular , the same old voices from the civil war are raising the heads again and inter denominational/tribal/factional violence is increasing .
What a bunch of muppets .:furious3:

[Seamus Fermanagh]

Oh well , you could have seen this happening .
The Lebanese army/government action has taken a small group with very little support , and by its crazy actions has turned it into a small group with increasing support .
A weak and unpopular fractured government has made itself weaker more fractured and more unpopular , the same old voices from the civil war are raising the heads again and inter denominational/tribal/factional violence is increasing .
What a bunch of muppets .:furious3:

Perhaps I mistake you, Tribes, but it seems to me that in your "rubric" for dealing with terrorists and fringe splinter groups there is NEVER a place for armed violence against said groups.

Do you advocate simply absorbing the damage/deaths they cause as a "cost of doing business" while they marginalize themselves in the eyes of the greater public? At what point and in what manner should a government take action?

Splinter group crazies will not stop terrorist attacks because of marginalization or mis-like. As far as I can tell only their own embarrassment over failure for a prolonged stretch would generate a devolution -- and this isn't likely since such groups target "soft" targets as a rule.

Perhaps the specifics of this group in Lebanon require a different answer than the more generalized questions I have posed to you. However, even if that is the case, I would appreciate a developed response to my questions. Thanks.

[Tribesman]

Perhaps I mistake you, Tribes, but it seems to me that in your "rubric" for dealing with terrorists and fringe splinter groups there is NEVER a place for armed violence against said groups.

You do indeed mistake me Seamus , there are plenty of times for armed violence against terrorists , but shelling the hell out of a heavily populated area to try and kill a small number of nuts isn't one of them .
The military and governments know this is true , but they still go ahead anyway an do it .
Theres a nice paper in your governments declassifiednational security archives , it goes on about how it is vital to the success of the mission in Afghanistan not to shell or bomb built up areas even if they think the intelligence on the terrorists location is very good .
War against terrorism needs a very very good PR face , blowing up civilians is not good PR no matter how much they try to dress it up.
If you go back to the start of the topic , you see the same old crap trotted out " hey these people have terrorists living amongst them , its their fault if they choose to live with terrorists " what utter tripe .

[Pannonian]

You do indeed mistake me Seamus , there are plenty of times for armed violence against terrorists , but shelling the hell out of a heavily populated area to try and kill a small number of nuts isn't one of them .
The military and governments know this is true , but they still go ahead anyway an do it .
Theres a nice paper in your governments declassifiednational security archives , it goes on about how it is vital to the success of the mission in Afghanistan not to shell or bomb built up areas even if they think the intelligence on the terrorists location is very good .
War against terrorism needs a very very good PR face , blowing up civilians is not good PR no matter how much they try to dress it up.
If you go back to the start of the topic , you see the same old crap trotted out " hey these people have terrorists living amongst them , its their fault if they choose to live with terrorists " what utter tripe .
It might be instructive to see how the British Army justified their shelling of residential areas in Northern Ireland that were known to harbour terrorists.

[IrishArmenian]

What kind of people shell a refugee camp? Shells don't distinguish friendly or enemy, they just kill. There is a middle way, if we stopped babbling and looked to the other side we might get something done, but being stubborn as an ass and killing people to no avail is obviously a lot more... I don't even know what kind of necessity it fulfills, other than our inherent sadism that we seem to say is gone but in fact, controls many governments.

[Zaknafien]

this is eerily reminiscent of the 1982 Phalanx massacres of Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps under orders of then-general Sharon...

[Redleg]

this is eerily reminiscent of the 1982 Phalanx massacres of Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps under orders of then-general Sharon...

Not at all - as Tribesman alreadly stated its very similiar to the Lebanese Civil War. Edit - I very rarely agree with Tribesman's opinion but on this one he is fairily accurate in my opinion. The Lebanese need no one's help to commit such an error once again, they are more then able to do it to themselves.

Time will tell if the Lebanese government learned from the past - but with this occurance they are probably suffering from the same problem as most governments. That and they are suffering from the political power plays of at least four different countries and more then a handful or two of their own internal politicial parties.

[Tribesman]

I very rarely agree with Tribesman's opinion but on this one he is fairily accurate in my opinion.
right thats enough of that , time to change my opinion I think .



this is eerily reminiscent of the 1982 Phalanx massacres of Palestinians in the Sabra and Chatila refugee camps under orders of then-general Sharon...
Yep you are right .

Sorted:2thumbsup:


But hold on ...if ......
as Tribesman alreadly stated its very similiar to the Lebanese Civil War...and.....
but with this occurance they are probably suffering from the same problem as most governments. That and they are suffering from the political power plays of at least four different countries and more then a handful or two of their own internal politicial parties.
Reds and Zaks statements are not mutually exclusive .
So it is not so much of a
Not at all more of a "not quite" especially with Zaks use of
reminiscent .

What we really have is similar problems , with some different players involved , and all the old players still in the game apart from the dead ones (though with situations like this the dead are still in the game sort of) .