ADVICE: towards Target, LongJohn and devs

[MagyarKhans Cham]

please guys, come around here once more and answer the thread about the sliders and other "could be game improving" topics.

as you promised us many times last years to visit us regulary, as the online-comminuty should be taken serious u said. now prove this once more.

if you dont even think about it to post in here just only to hype around, please infom us about that as well.

"eye for an eye, teeth for a teeth"

[longjohn2]

I'm sorry I can't really discuss Medieval. Releasing information about the product is the job of the marketing department not mine. Many peoples' livelyhoods depend on the success of the product, so I hope you understand that I can't predjudice the pre launch build up (hype if you like) by leaking information here.

However, I do continue to read what's posted here, and many of the issues raised have been addressed. As you'll have seen from the previews, as well as plenty of new stuff, the underlying simulation has been improved in many ways as well, some of which will really only be appreciated by the hardcore players.
I would like to thank everybody for their thoughts and ideas for Medieval, and opinions and information about the shortcomings of Shogun. They've helped us make Medieval even better.
The game's being shown publicly for the first time this week at E3 so I'm sure some more information will be released soon.
I'll also tell you that personally I'm really excited about the game. Ineviatably it won't have every feature you could wish for, but overall I think you're going to love it.
Now if I can just get my bug list down enough that I can give it some serious play testing...

[St Stephen]

Quote Originally posted by longjohn2:
I'm sorry I can't really discuss Medieval. Releasing information about the product is the job of the marketing department not mine. Many peoples' livelyhoods depend on the success of the product, so I hope you understand that I can't predjudice the pre launch build up (hype if you like) by leaking information here.

However, I do continue to read what's posted here, and many of the issues raised have been addressed. As you'll have seen from the previews, as well as plenty of new stuff, the underlying simulation has been improved in many ways as well, some of which will really only be appreciated by the hardcore players.
I would like to thank everybody for their thoughts and ideas for Medieval, and opinions and information about the shortcomings of Shogun. They've helped us make Medieval even better.
The game's being shown publicly for the first time this week at E3 so I'm sure some more information will be released soon.
I'll also tell you that personally I'm really excited about the game. Ineviatably it won't have every feature you could wish for, but overall I think you're going to love it.
Now if I can just get my bug list down enough that I can give it some serious play testing...

[/QUOTE]

************************************************************************So if I understand you correctly the poeople who buy the game because they like history (.com forum crowd)doesn't really concern you at all!

Well if you ask me,it is a big mistake to build your "livelyhoods" on few hundred "hardcore" player when the guys who will put you in to your next BMW most likely will never play MP online, just buy the game for the love of history.

Greetings from King Stephen!



[This message has been edited by Sir Kuma of The Org (edited 05-22-2002).]

[tootee]

Hello LongJohn. Good to hear that things are progressing well. I'm almost sure it will be a win-win situation for all.

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tootee the goldfish,
headmaster of Shogun-Academy (http://shogun-academy.tripod.com)
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[Papewaio]

Hi Longjohn,

Understand completely and will not taunt you with threats. Looking forward to seeing the game. The only thing I want to know from your marketing people is will it come out in a tin box premium package at the same time?

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Victory First, Battle Last

[Erado San]

St. Stephen!

THAT REPLY is EXACTLY why they don't respond on the .com forum. In the past on every remark they made they got %^$#%&#W^%# replies. That has created an atmosphere where the .com forum is read, but they won't post there. I think they just got so fed up with that attitude they simply weren't going to waste any more time over there. Imagine how much fun it is to be working on the game all day, then post something and get flamed for it. Fun, huh?

It is also the reason I urge you strongly NOT to do that here. Be glad that at least on this forum the patrons appreciate their responses and don't charge them all the time. All forum admins and moderators are aware of this and we simply will not allow any post that puts the little communication we have with them at risk.

As an example, at one time one of the devs made a game or something in his spare time. Sadly, while he released it the server was down or something. The kind of crap that dev got poured out over him for bothering about a game and not making things more stable was ridiculous, and I don't think we'll ever see him put up an effort in his spare time for us.

BTW, thanks for the post, LongJohn. Most of us understand your position related to marketing. I just look forward to whatever we get in the near future (do I hear people yelling "DEMO DEMO DEMO" in the background?).

[the Count of Flanders]

Quote Originally posted by Erado San:

That has created an atmosphere where the .com forum is read, but they won't post there. I think they just got so fed up with that attitude they simply weren't going to waste any more time over there. Imagine how much fun it is to be working on the game all day, then post something and get flamed for it. Fun, huh?

[/QUOTE]

Erado, as a frequent poster on the .com forum I have seen only one dev posting there (Nosehead, the guy that does the music) and he was by no means flamed. I totally agree with you that no-one, this especially includes the dev's, should be flamed but to be honest I have never seen any other dev's on the MTW .com board so how could we have flamed them?????????? I think the .com forum has a lot more single players then the .org and we also deserve to be heard.



[This message has been edited by the Count of Flanders (edited 05-22-2002).]

[St Stephen]

Quote Originally posted by Erado San:
St. Stephen!

THAT REPLY is EXACTLY why they don't respond on the .com forum. In the past on every remark they made they got %^$#%&#W^%# replies. That has created an atmosphere where the .com forum is read, but they won't post there. I think they just got so fed up with that attitude they simply weren't going to waste any more time over there. Imagine how much fun it is to be working on the game all day, then post something and get flamed for it. Fun, huh?

It is also the reason I urge you strongly NOT to do that here. Be glad that at least on this forum the patrons appreciate their responses and don't charge them all the time. All forum admins and moderators are aware of this and we simply will not allow any post that puts the little communication we have with them at risk.

As an example, at one time one of the devs made a game or something in his spare time. Sadly, while he released it the server was down or something. The kind of crap that dev got poured out over him for bothering about a game and not making things more stable was ridiculous, and I don't think we'll ever see him put up an effort in his spare time for us.

BTW, thanks for the post, LongJohn. Most of us understand your position related to marketing. I just look forward to whatever we get in the near future (do I hear people yelling "DEMO DEMO DEMO" in the background?).[/QUOTE]

Well, you are right however they are the ones who need our fifty bucks so am I asking too much from them when I simply begging for some little support for the hardcore community they have over at .com, that's all nothing more and nothing less. Don't tell me that few post once in a while would be so hard to do and maybe that would do the trick, so we would feel our self "close to the fire" also.

When I visited few other forums it feelt so good to talk to or simply hear (read) from the guys who made and worked so hard on the product.

Don't blame me for my attitude they are the one who made me the man I am today! ******************************************************************************************
However my best wishes to them all if it's up to me they wont lose their job anytime soon!



[This message has been edited by Sir Kuma of The Org (edited 05-22-2002).]

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa St. Stephen san,

If you take a closer look, you'll find History Buffs/Lovers here.

Longjohn2 sama mentioned that MTW will offer something for the 'hardcore' players.

First off, those 'hardcore' players play TW games ever since the release of the alpha S:TW demo, also known as battletrainer, quite a few are around since 1999.

Second. Every review mentions SP stuff, the best you can read is: support for 8 players, siege equipment works in online battles.
This is a fair question.

Thirdly. Longjohn2 sama says: 'some of which will really only be appreciated by the hardcore players'.

I'm just dutch, but this seems to mean something different than: 'some of which will only be appreciated by the hardcore players'.

I don't have the slightest idea what Longjohn2 sama refers to, but I'll try to explain a case.

Upgrades for units. Units are very nicely made using a system of unitspecific bonuses (RPS), units consist of individuals and individuals can promote to higher skills.

The promotion system is identical for each unittype and that undermines the RPS. This is not really noticeble (due to a number of reasons) in single player games. But it's there.

It is very obvious in multi games, and it 'offers' exploits.

'some of which will only be appreciated by the hardcore players'. Would simply mean a cap on what can be purchased in online battles, a very simple system that will 'stop' exploits in multi games, doesn't require a lot of trouble to make (change max 9 upgrade levels to max 5 and min 0 to min 2), and doesn't change a bit for single games.

'some of which will really only be appreciated by the hardcore players'.
Could mean that the upgradesystem is changed. It will change a lot in multi games, and it could be applied to single games too. While it would improve the game there too, it might be much harder to notice (or making good just better).


'Well if you ask me,it is a big mistake to build your "livelyhoods" on few hundred "hardcore" player '

Those 'hardcore' players (while not necessarily responsible for any) have made many suggestions to improve the game. As most of us love history (realism or any other aspect TW games offer) we didn't ask for a QuadDamage, Personal TelePorter or ManaGenerator. It should also be understood that 'hardcore' gamers aren't only multigame 'freaks'. Check out the files section of http://www.totalwar.org.maps , please. I don't think you'll find any exclusive for multi, while there are many for single player games. I don't think it's a big mistake to build the 'livelyhood' on a few hundred 'hardcore' gamers. But it has to be said that these guys don't have to depend solely on any gamer or history lover as STW is a fine game that kept many of us interested for years (I dare say the best ever installed on my harddisk, while it has some nasty shortcomings too. I guess I 'see' that because I'am a 'hardcore gamer' a history lover, a modifier and a realism dweller).




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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

St Stephen, i am sensitive about flaming in the forum i mod in, it is simply not allowed. So i have deleted the worst parts of your posts.

Thank you in advance for your understanding. If you any difficulty with this, feel free to E-mail me.

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Ils sont grands seulement parce que nous sommes à genoux. Alors levons-nous debout!!!

[the Count of Flanders]

Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
Konnichiwa St. Stephen san,

If you take a closer look, you'll find History Buffs/Lovers here.

First off, those 'hardcore' players play TW games ever since the release of the alpha S:TW demo, also known as battletrainer, quite a few are around since 1999.

Second. Every review mentions SP stuff, the best you can read is: support for 8 players, siege equipment works in online battles.
This is a fair question.

'Well if you ask me,it is a big mistake to build your "livelyhoods" on few hundred "hardcore" player '
[/QUOTE]

I am not trying to start a childish discussion on which board is best but I would like to add a few comments.
Yes the history buffs are here but they hardly post anything. The only thread I found worth really participating in here was the "knights vs samurai" thread where some real historical arguments were made. Also there's a lot more posting on the .com forum too.
Furthermore many of us at the .com forum (like me) have also been playing Shogun since 1999, just because they weren't part of the online community doesn't mean their opinion is worth less. Most of the regulars are long-time wargamers whose opinion is worth listening to.
I agree on your second point.
I think what Stephen was trying to say is "MULTIPLAY hardcore players". Let's face it, in multiplay there's only a part of the gameplay: only the tactical battle part. So focusing completely on it would be a mistake.
I'm just Belgian but my point is: we at the .com are disappointed that the dev's don't post on their own forum. If they post here and not at the .com I think they are disrespecting their forum members at the .com. The flaming argument of Tera I find strange since I've never seen a dev get flamed at the MTW .com forum. We also support Total War and love the game, we also help a lot of n00bs by answering their (stupid) questions about the game. We all support the same thing, so I think we deserve the same respect.
Ok, now I'm gonna stop whining, I have nothing against the dev's posting here but they should also post at their own forum.

[Vlad The Impaler]

well thats why i like .org more .it simply looks more..proffesional if i may say so...
heh..patience is a rare virtue http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[spiffy_scimitar]

Quite honestly, I've abondoned the .com forum because the dang thing kept opening advertisement windows for every topic I clicked on.

Maybe the dev's prefer the easier-on-the-eye white and grey background to the jarring red and black http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[the Count of Flanders]

CA has (finally) paid EZ-boards for the forum to go gold so those nasty pop-ups are gone!

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa the Count of Flanders san,

I even don't want to think about which is best. Both forums have all kind of patrons.

I also don't want to say which forum offers the best discussions about history (but I'll state that this Medieval Forum is not the only forum of .org, and history doesn't start nor end with medieval Europe).

My (sub)intention was to point out that org folks are not just a bunch of hardcore players crying for online goodies.

It should also be understood, that online games with human players reveil shortcomings in battles, a quite important aspect of single player campaigns. While the shortcomings are not so appearant in single games, I'm sure history lovers too would like this to be as real as possible.

'Let's face it, in multiplay there's only a part of the gameplay: only the tactical battle part. So focusing completely on it would be a mistake'.

Please forgive my point of view, battles are part of singleplayer too, that means that an improvement in multibattles could improve single games too. I've never played the game, but it seems that DiabloII multi was so improved that single became worthless.

I, as player of multi and single games, dare say that STW WE improved the campaign game over STW, while it did not improve multi games. There were of course changes in multi, even improvements, but improvements are either of limited use or are countered by serious cons.

While incorporation of diplomatics in single player campaign (something 'hardcore' gamers have 'asked' for too) requires quite some resources. 'Adding' a better battle for multi either requires less resources or benefits single games as well (caps or revised combat). Revised combat to suit multi does not imply worse single gameplay, while changed combat could turn out dramatically bad for multi (system A and system B are about as good for single, while A is very bad and B is good for multi).

Read the reviews about M:TW, they mention SP. And to return to the essence of the first post in this topic by Magyar Khan (a 'hardcore' multigamer), while anyone can get a quite good insight in what M:TW single will offer, whether im- or explicitely stated, nothing is said about multi.
So saying that M:TW is focussed on multi is wrong.

'have also been playing Shogun since 1999'
The alpha demo was released in the 2nd half of jan 2000.

About developers posting in forums.
-Richie sama hasn't posted at org for a very long time, he recently posted at com.
-Nosehead (Jeff van Dijck, composer of the very nice music found in TW titles) has recently posted at .com, not here.

-Target sama hasn't posted since last winter.

-Longjohn sama does post here (at times). Why? He's an AI progger, the combatsystem is discussed a lot here.




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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[the Count of Flanders]

Quote Originally posted by TosaInu:
'have also been playing Shogun since 1999'
The alpha demo was released in the 2nd half of jan 2000.

[/QUOTE]
OK, I have played STW since the battle trainer demo was on the coverdisk of PCgameplay (I have no idea when that exactly was, but at least 2 years ago).
As for the rest you make some good points but I still don't completely agree, I'll just give it a rest as I've already made my point and it's no use dragging this on.

[Hirosito]

as an aside the org has quite a few patrons who have never played online.

------------------
Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[MagyarKhans Cham]

Good posts guys
Nice editting Kuma

I want to add in this discussion that might seem small but what about the people who just dont want to register for what reason they might have...

And above all every die hard org.community members represents a group of friends who dont come in here. Me myself had made about 7-9 other people buying Shogun and MI.

[St Stephen]

Count thanks, at least you know where I'm coming from!

********************************************************, frankly I don't really care, the only thing I'm asking from THEM to equally respect all fans alike! Tell me please if this is wrong? No offense to anyone here but this forum was dead in the last few weeks compared to the .com forum, for unknown reasons by me!

The communist God of the medieval forum has stricked again!!!! http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif


[This message has been edited by Sir Kuma of The Org (edited 05-23-2002).]

[And so has Erado the Black, I had to take the dots out that made the whole thread go 2 screens wide]

[This message has been edited by Erado San (edited 05-23-2002).]

[Puzz3D]

I find longjohn's comment on the underlying simulation being improved very encouraging. His is the only information we've had concerning that. When you here nothing, you start worrying that nothing significant has been changed, and wonder if it's worth the effort to post suggestions.

How on earth do you read "some changes may only be noticed by hardcore players" to mean a lack of concern for non-hardcore players? The changes will benefit all players, but it may require digging into the game mechanics to notice some of them the way a hardcore player would. Historical accuracy buffs can be hardcore players as well.

What I like about longjohn's statement is that it means improvements have been made under the hood in MTW that may not be readily apparent. To me that shows a real commitment to improving the game in more than a supeficial or heavy handed way. The game is based in a historical setting and is historical to some degree, but historical accuracy is not the primary objective. When the marketing department claims "historically accurate", I take that to mean "to some degree".

MizuYuuki ~~~

[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 05-22-2002).]

[Nelson]

Some aspects of the game will only be noticed by people who have played Shogun a lot and will play Medieval a lot. I take "hard core" to mean "plays it to death". Like we have. So that makes longjohn's comment very encouraging indeed. They've done more than add chrome. Deep depth is a good thing in a game.

Now where's the demo?

[TakaRatta Yamamoto]

You go to far St. Stephen. This forum has the one freedom that you growing up did not have.


If you do not like it you can leave.


Or, you can try to change it with POSITIVE statements, not spread negativity as you did with the communist comment.

Taka

[Papewaio]

IMDO

St Stephen. I read your orginal comments and I almost quoted and flamed you at the time. For once I held my breath and did not.

The right of freedom of speech is not the right to be obnoxious. Spending $50 on a game that you find very entertaining does not give you a ticket to be rude to someone because you are feeling impatient. And this (privatly operated) board does have rules of etiquette and honour.

Not all fans should be treated alike. Rude ones such as yourself understandably get the cold shoulder.

I for one would like not to have to see your bitter style of post here again.

----
For reference I play SP exclusively. I have found the .org guys very helpful, fun and interesting.

Longjohn very rarely posts here but they are gems of insight for myself and others. And as far as freedom of speech goes he should be allowed to speak where he chooses not where you choose.

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

Now in all fairness, i would be the first one to admit that i should also edit some parts of TakaRatta Yamamoto and Papewaio last posts (thanks for your intervention by the way) but i'm not THAT OBJECTIVE.

Sorry for my weakness http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

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Ils sont grands seulement parce que nous sommes à genoux. Alors levons-nous debout!!!

[Hirosito]

well KUMA i think that we get so few visits from devs that i personally wouldn't like to think that someone from .com scared him away.

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[TosaInu]

Konnichiwa,

This was posted at the .com forum:

Ok Gentlemen I'm back and I have all the answers we were looking for so get your pen ready because here it comes.

All the following is based on my few minuets of talk with Michael DePlater and Dan Carreker (Activision). I must remind you that all the info list it below comes from my (failing) memory so if I make any mistakes please forgive me for doing so. However I'm 99% confident of the accuracy of the listed text. Well let's start it already right!!!

1-The game is in it's late "Alfa" period right now. It is pretty much playable but they working out the bugs on the game as we speak.
2-The Demo is ready and is going to get released soon Michael said, probably in the "next few weeks" he said.
3-Release date of the game is (ready???):August 23, 2002. However Dan add it later that is going to get released different time in each country. This date is for USA, I think!
4-Historic Era: Early, High and Late. We will have 12 playable faction but not all will be playable in all era .Early and the High will get only ten(I think) playable factions. Only the late will have all the 12 playable factions in the game!
5-Playable factions . (Well this one is a butt kicker)
-Armenians ????(this is what I meant about the butt)
-Byzantine
-Danes ( Tarrak this one is for you my friend,You lucky ......)
-English
-French
-Germans
-Polish
-Russians
-Italians
-Spanish
-Almohads, (Moors I think)
-Turkish
My humble opinion is that they using nationalities instead of countries because the "lay video gamer" without any history Ph.D. will recognize them easier this way.
6-Historic Campaigns:
-English 100 y. war
-France 100 y. war
-William
-Barbarosa
-Mongols
Dan add it here that they still working on this one so we might see more !?
http://pub24.ezboard.com/fshoguntotalwarfrm5.showMessage?topicID=374.topic

Recall what Eradosan said: do I hear people yelling "DEMO DEMO DEMO" in the background?



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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi

http://www.takiyama.cjb.net

[Hirosito]

brilliant stuff

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[DthB4Dishonor]

Hail all,

I'm new to online play with TW but I have had the game for sometime. (Finished internship). I just wanted to state that the post that has all the information on it was posted by ST. Stephen who on .com is King Stephen. I'm not what many of you would call "hardcore" but I have spent many an hour playing STW orig. and WE.(cant wait for MTW)

I think many of you have valid points but must say that something is out of sync when the forum org/com has more info than the offical site. As illustrated by King/St Stephens post on .com and it's duplication on .org. I'm talking about major things like release date which seems to be August 23 not stuff like what kinda banner a country has.

[This message has been edited by DthB4Dishonor (edited 05-26-2002).]

[MagyarKhans Cham]

ur an hardcore online gamer if ur listed in our Secret History

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
ur an hardcore online gamer if ur listed in our Secret History[/QUOTE]

Where can I find this "Secret History"?

If its "secret", how can it be "history", since history is but the collection of widely accepted "truths" about the chronology of events in the past? If the "truth" is hidden from the people, then whatever falseties the people believe becomes "history"!

GAH!

[MagyarKhans Cham]

According to Stephen Hawkings there is more than 1 history in our universe, so u could consider teh one u cant see and "live in" as being secret (for you)

[the Count of Flanders]

How is this possible? The newtonian definition of time as a stream has been discarded by most modern quantumphysicists! Time is merely the relative flow of energy (and as such also matter) between different quantum states, as such how can there be a unique hidden "history". I think you need to define the Hawkonian definition of history since with the higher given definition that theory won't work.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

[Vanya]

Quote Originally posted by MagyarKhans Cham:
According to Stephen Hawkings ...[/QUOTE]

Isn't this feller the slacker that pitches Dell PCs on the TV commercials?

[Neighbor]: Stephen... isn't this your father's car?
[Stephen]: [Rolls eyes, take quick glance at girl in passenger seat] Uh... No!
[Girl]: Aren't you gonna say it?
[Stephen]: Nah. He knows!

[Krasturak]

Quote Originally posted by Vanya:
Where can I find this "Secret History"?
[/QUOTE]

Gah! Vanya! Gah!

The Secret History is safely stored under the fifth stone from the left inner wall of the Gah!ning Temple in Tarranak.

It is Secret because no-one knows where it is!

And Krast not telling, so there!

[Sir Kuma of The Org]

And just to be sure that the secret remains so, i'm closing this thread http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

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Ils sont grands seulement parce que nous sommes à genoux. Alors levons-nous debout!!!