Does the War on Iraq kill more terrorists than it creates?

[Navaros]

I've been listening to a lot of expert commentary lately and the consensus is usually that the War on Iraq is a gift to Osama Bin Laden so good that he never could have dreamed of getting such a great gift. The War on Iraq is exactly what Bin Laden wanted and even better than what he thought he could get. They say that the War on Iraq enrages otherwise peaceful Muslims to become terrorists and boost the number of terrorists fighting against the occupation and puppet government forces in Iraq and also creates terrorists worldwide out of people that would not otherwise be terrorists.

What do you think?

[Fragony]

If that is so it is also a gift to those fighting them, they simply cannot go somewhere else without looking rediculous. Can't fight them like this at home. I'd say that we are both fighting a pretty pointless war, we can't win and they can't win, Bin Laden is probably as welcome as the inquisisition.

ps, doubt that Bin Laden is the invisible hand under iraq's skirt, it's just chaos.

[Navaros]

The point is that Bin Laden wanted to draw the US into a never-ending war with Muslims and he has succeeded in doing that, even though he expected it to be in Afghanistan, and not receive the gift of the War on Iraq.

[Fragony]

Nah he failed, 9/11 was supposed to be a starting sign, and he didn't get the response he wanted. Maybe he should have hired the mcDonalds pr-team instead .People are killed by these nutjobs every day there, not the best way to gain popular support. The real battlefield is Europe.

[Zaknafien]

Of course it creates more than it kills.

If half your family is dead and half is starving, and someone offers you money to shoot a couple of mortars at what you see as godless pork-eating barbarian invaders, youre surely going to do it. Low risk, religious benefit, and the hard facts of getting cash to feed your family. Even if you were a dentist before the war, now youre a so-called "terrorist". I'd do it to, and so would you.

Wake up, America.

[Fragony]

Wake up, America.

Isn't america that's killing them, and besides, if America wants to kill as many muslims as we euro's did they have a long way to go. In the fifties Holland killed over a 100.000 people in indonesia (some say much more), France has been pretty nasty in Algeria, England in Egypt, so why didn't it take place here? Simply because America is the big fish and attacking it has the greatest psychological impact. It were the muslims in europe that were supposed to be rallied I think, no shortage in human recource after all, an attack on europe that took place in the states if you will.

[Zaknafien]

Isn't america that's killing them.

Are you smoking crack? :dizzy2: Maybe that came out wrong, but are you saying Americans are not killing Iraqis? With at least 74,000 dead as a result of the war, I'd certainly say we are..

[Strike For The South]

The way I see it is this. Bin Laden is never going to make headway with our muslims or minorites ever ever ever. So we can either keep fighting or we can be civil and come to the table no matter how much some of yall want admit it we will eventually come to the table. It may be a year 5 years or 10 years down the road. Peace is inventable and the sad part is it will just be back to the status quo. I'd be more scared if I was a European apathy and a low birth rate are never good.

[Zaknafien]

Hm, have you looked at the recent polls of American Muslims?

[Fragony]

Are you smoking crack? :dizzy2: Maybe that came out wrong, but are you saying Americans are not killing Iraqis? With at least 74,000 dead as a result of the war, I'd certainly say we are..

Well yeah, but the bulk gets spread out by the likes of uncle bin and his bubba's. You know, these big explosions at markets and such you keep hearing about.

[Zaknafien]

Oh, I've lived through a couple not just heard about them. Are they not a direct result of our aggression into Iraq? You really think "bin-laden" would be blowing up his own people if we werent there? We've killed thousands of civilians ourselves, you know.. smart-weapons aren't. Young soldiers shoot at anything when they fear for their lives. It sucks.

[Fragony]

Oh, I've lived through a couple not just heard about them. Are they not a direct result of our aggression into Iraq? You really think "bin-laden" would be blowing up his own people if we werent there? We've killed thousands of civilians ourselves, you know.. smart-weapons aren't. Young soldiers shoot at anything when they fear for their lives. It sucks.

These guys understand us a lot better then we do them, we have the guns but not the stomach for violence. Americans are addicted to succes, 5 years ago you were amost all behind it and now the love is gone, that worked for the terrorists at least. Terrorist bombings aren't exactly a new thing that promptly appeared when you opened a starbucks in bagdad.

[Zaknafien]

There are reasons that they hate us, you know. 1, the majority of resistance in Iraq is conducted by Iraqi freedom-fighters. 2, the relatively small percentage of foreign jihadis in the region hate us for any number of causes that are a direct result of our foreign policy and exploitation of the world's poor and indifference to their religous wishes in the 80s and 90s.

[Fragony]

Yeah they have a reason to hate us, it's called the political islam. Deeply sorry for them if we can't meet their religious demands but I prefer my head attached to my neck if you don't mind.

[Zaknafien]

Its an ignorant attitude like that that will keep this war going in perpetuity. You need to learn about your enemies and why they are at odds with us, so we can work out a real, long-term solution to the issues or else we are no longer a great nation. "They" have no problem with you living your life the way you want. "They" just don't like us offending their great sense of religion by throwing ourselves in their faces every day and oppressing them at every turn. If you ever get a chance to travel to the Middle East, especially a rural country of the ME, you will see how much religion plays a part in these peoples lives and how it dictates their thoughts.

Now, certainly, I would agree that all religion is idiocy and has been the cause of most if not all suffering in human history, but these people arent going to become enlightened atheists anytime soon.

[Fragony]

Easy now, the broad brush is my tool, take a stroll in a multicultural european neightbourhood, bring your girlfriend and see how much they respect your way of life. I expect around 10 educated guesses about her profession within 5 minutes. Is it so hard to imagine that the USA isn't necesarily the only faction in the world with a emperialist agenda?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

There are reasons that they hate us, you know. 1, the majority of resistance in Iraq is conducted by Iraqi freedom-fighters

Thats one of the biggest loads of doo doo ive ever seen posted here. Freedom fighter? Who do they want freedom from?


Are you smoking crack? Maybe that came out wrong, but are you saying Americans are not killing Iraqis? With at least 74,000 dead as a result of the war, I'd certainly say we are..

You better check your stash. :laugh4: You think we killed all these people? Your precious freedom fighters are in no way responsible? Who are the real bad guys here? Who do you side with anyway? Would you like the insurgents to win?

[Zaknafien]

Excuse me, for starters, I never said "we" killed all of them. I said quote "as a result of the war". They'd be alive if not for the war. Not to mention the humanitarian and refugee crisis in Iraq. Look into it. it sucks.

What are they fighting for freedom from? Uh, an occupational power and a puppet government perhaps? Its how invasions work, look into it. Same thing happened to the Brits when they tried the same with their client regime in Iraq.

[KukriKhan]

Let's see... 'ignorant', 'doo-doo', 'crack'...

Argue the points, fellas, without resort to character assassination.

:bow:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Excuse me, for starters, I never said "we" killed all of them.


but are you saying Americans are not killing Iraqis


No you didnt say all but you insinuated we are responsible for all.


What are they fighting for freedom from? Uh, an occupational power and a puppet government perhaps? I

Or too gain power for their own nasty little ideas perhaps? Do you think the majority of Iraqis support them? If so why are so many Iraqis fighting them? It seens to me you have little grasp of the real situation over there.

[Zaknafien]

Are you kidding me? The majority of Iraqis view us as illegal occupiers by an overwhelming margin. Look at the polls. A startling number of Iraqis view US troops as legitimate targets. Look at the polls. Most of the people taking pot-shots and lobbing mortars and placing IEDs are normal, average, every day people. Not radical islamists. I've been there for 15 months, and am going for a second 15 months in November.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Are you kidding me? The majority of Iraqis view us as illegal occupiers by an overwhelming margin.

Who is kidding who here? Ive said ask them to vote on the matter more times than I can count. Do you really think they would be better off if we just packed up and left?


I've been there for 15 months, and am going for a second 15 months in November.

Are you in the army?

[drone]

I don't know about creating more terrorists, but the economic effects of this war on the US will have a lasting impact. Probably not the full result OBL wants, but I'm sure he's happy about it.

[Devastatin Dave]

I think a better question would be does Islam create more terrorist than the War in Iraq.

[HoreTore]

I'd be more scared if I was a European apathy and a low birth rate are never good.

Low birthrates are very, very good. There's hardly any more room left on this planet, until we find another one we'll either have to get a huge war or significantly lower birthrates...

[Zaknafien]

they can't vote on it as long as the seperatists hold sway in Baghdad. The President is a Kurd for chrissakes, and the last thing he wants is to have his strongman (the US) leave.

Yes, I am in the 10th mountain division. my first tour was in 2003 with the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Low birthrates are very, very good.

I dont think you get it. Only those he spoke of are declining. The number of Muslims certainly is not


they can't vote on it as long as the seperatists hold sway in Baghdad. The President is a Kurd for chrissakes, and the last thing he wants is to have his strongman (the US) leave.

I thought we were in charge :laugh4: I agree Baghdad is a mess. I still favor a 3 state solution.



Yes, I am in the 10th mountain division. my first tour was in 2003 with the 2nd Armored Cavalry Regiment.

My hats off to you then. Man you should have heard the things I used to say about our leaders when I was in the Marines. :laugh4:

[Don Corleone]

Low birthrates are very, very good. There's hardly any more room left on this planet, until we find another one we'll either have to get a huge war or significantly lower birthrates...

Hore Tore, I'm not going to say you're wrong. Instead, I'm going to ask you to consider your position in light of the numerous times in the past few centuries that it has been stated we are at maximum population density for the planet.

I'd also like you to consider that there are large parts of Alaska and Northern Canada where the population density is less than 1 person per square mile. Forget about a nice 1/2 acre bungalow in the suburbs, you could have yourself your own square mile.

Finally, if we compressed everyone into a level of urbanization no greater than what exists in Boston, Massachussets (the highest population density city in the USA), we could fit the entire world's population into an area roughly half the size of Texas.

We may have too many people in too few areas on Earth, and the wrong places at that, but the planet as a whole is not overpopulated.

[Boyar Son]

The worl Pop. in half the size of texas?!?!?

I cant believe it.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Texas is mighty big :laugh4:

[Lemur]

This thread reminds me of a bumper-sticker I saw a couple of days ago: "America -- making enemies faster than we can kill 'em."

[Watchman]

Iraq is the Afghanistan of the 2000s in the sense that the next generation of major international Islamist militant leaders are getting their practical training and initial networking done there, just as bin Laden's generation did in Afghanistan. And like in Afghanistan, the foreign jihadists are only a small segment of the gunmen and bomb-tossers around, the rest being locals of any number of different motivations (although most apparently revolve around sectarian, ethnic and personal grudges and a major dislike with the foreign troops in the country) - albeit probably the most ruthless one.

The whole place's now pretty much a live-fire practical training camp for international guerillas. Many die in the process, but the clever ones who survive learn a lot and end up knowing a lot of like-minded individuals with the same experiences - and until the salient problems that sparked off the whole International Islamist Militant phenomenom back in the Eighties and have spread it like wildfire in the past decade or so have finally been dealt with, one way or another, there will always be new applicants to these Asymmetric Warfare Academies.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Iraq is the Afghanistan of the 2000s in the sense that the next generation of major international Islamist militant leaders are getting their practical training and initial networking done there

Its the next training ground for us as well dont forget. Or are we learning nothing there?

[Watchman]

Given how total a cluster.... the whole thing has been ?
Hopefully.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You always learn the most from your mistakes. That is if you have any brains LOL.

I should put that in the what have you learned thread :)

[Watchman]

:tongue:
...I shall refrain from commenting on that in the interests of avoiding moderator ire.

Anyway, you only learn anything worthwhile from your mistakes if you actually draw the correct conclusions of the whys and hows and why nots...

[Samurai Waki]

But what makes anybody think that when the US leaves anything will be different. I don't, you'll still have foreign Powers imposing their will, sending money to "Freedom Fighters" and on occasion crossing the border as a unified National Military Force. Iraq will be a battle ground for at least another decade, and when the dust settles, who knows whats going to happen. I mean, theres a very slim chance that this whole Iraq debacle could be a blessing in disguise for the West. After 10-20-30 years of unremitting warfare, theres going to be some people who are just going to say the hell with this and its going to end. Maybe even by that point, the West will slowly disenfranchise itself from the middle east, as the need for oil drops to ridiculous levels.

[Samurai Waki]

But what makes anybody think that when the US leaves anything will be different. I don't, you'll still have foreign Powers imposing their will, sending money to "Freedom Fighters" and on occasion crossing the border as a unified National Military Force. Iraq will be a battle ground for at least another decade, and when the dust settles, who knows whats going to happen. I mean, theres a very slim chance that this whole Iraq debacle could be a blessing in disguise for the West. After 10-20-30 years of unremitting warfare, theres going to be some people who are just going to say the hell with this and its going to end. Maybe even by that point, the West will slowly disenfranchise itself from the middle east, as the need for oil drops to ridiculous levels.

[drone]

But what makes anybody think that when the US leaves anything will be different. I don't, you'll still have foreign Powers imposing their will, sending money to "Freedom Fighters" and on occasion crossing the border as a unified National Military Force. Iraq will be a battle ground for at least another decade, and when the dust settles, who knows whats going to happen. I mean, theres a very slim chance that this whole Iraq debacle could be a blessing in disguise for the West. After 10-20-30 years of unremitting warfare, theres going to be some people who are just going to say the hell with this and its going to end. Maybe even by that point, the West will slowly disenfranchise itself from the middle east, as the need for oil drops to ridiculous levels.
I say we take off and nuke the entire country from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. ~D

[Gawain of Orkeny]

.I shall refrain from commenting on that in the interests of avoiding moderator ire.

To late you gave yourself away :laugh4:


Anyway, you only learn anything worthwhile from your mistakes if you actually draw the correct conclusions of the whys and hows and why nots...

Thats why I said


That is if you have any brains LOL.

You seem to forget I opposed the invasion. Just for different reasons .

Actually Waki makes a good point. We lit the fire . Now we can just sit back and watch it burn. As long as it doesnt spread here right? :juggle2: It could well work out as he suggests.

[Watchman]

You seem to forget I opposed the invasion. Just for different reasons .You don't expect me to remember or have that written down in some sort of "Backroom Surveillance Log", do you ? :inquisitive:


Actually Waki makes a good point. We lit the fire . Now we can just sit back and watch it burn. As long as it doesnt spread here right? It could well work out as he suggests.:dizzy2: That's responsible all right. And worked so much better before too.

[PanzerJaeger]

I think a better question would be does Islam create more terrorist than the War in Iraq.

:bow:

[Goofball]

I say we take off and nuke the entire country from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. ~D

Excellent reference.

:bullseye:

[Strike For The South]

Hm, have you looked at the recent polls of American Muslims?

The one in which 85% didnt like attacks on civillians? Yes I did and with each generation that grip is going to become looser and looser

[Gawain of Orkeny]

As Judy Collins once sang "Pave Paradise and put up a parking lot"

[Strike For The South]

Who is Judy Collins?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

OMG

Judy Collins (http://www.judycollins.com/index1.php3)


Judy Collins has thrilled audiences worldwide with her unique blend of interpretative folksongs and contemporary themes. Her impressive career has spanned more than 40 years. At 13, Judy Collins made her public debut performing Mozart's "Concerto for Two Pianos" but it was the music of such artists as Woody Guthrie and Pete Seeger, as well as the traditional songs of the folk revival, that sparked Judy Collins' love of lyrics. She soon moved away from the classical piano and began her lifelong love with the guitar. In 1961, Judy Collins released her first album, A Maid of Constant Sorrow, at the age of 22 and began a thirty-five year association with Jac Holzman and Elektra Records.

Judy Collins is also noted for her rendition of Joni Mitchell's "Both Sides Now" on her classic 1967 album, Wildflowers. "Both Sides Now" has since been entered into the Grammy's Hall of Fame. Winning "Song of the Year" at the 1975 Grammy's Awards show was Judy's version of "Send in the Clowns," a ballad written by Stephen Sondheim for the Broadway musical "A Little Night Music."

Released on September 29th, Judy's new book, Sanity and Grace, A Journey of Suicide, Survival and Strength, is a deeply moving memoir, focusing on the death of her only son and the healing process following the tragedy. The book speaks to all who have endured the sorrow of losing a loved one before their time. In the depths of her suffering, Judy found relief by reaching out to others for help and support. Now, she extends her hand to comfort other survivors whose lives have been affected by similar tragedy.

In a recent appearance on ABC's Good Morning America, Judy performed "Wings of Angels," the heartbreaking ballad that she wrote about the loss of her son. The song is currently available on the newly released Judy Collins Wildflower Festival CD and DVD, which also feature guest artists Arlo Guthrie, Tom Rush and Eric Andersen. This extraordinary concert was filmed at the famed Humphrey's By the Bay in San Diego, CA. The concert was the culmination of a 25 city national tour.

Judy Collins continues to create music of hope and healing that lights up the world and speaks to the heart.

The only problem is I was thinking of Joni Mitchell :smash:

The song is Big yellow Taxi. You may have heard the remake by the counting crows.


They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
With a pink hotel, a boutique
And a swinging hot SPOT
Don’t it always seem to go
That you don't know what you’ve got
‘Til it's gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

They took all the trees
And put them in a tree museum
And they charged the people
A dollar and a half just to seem 'em
Don't it always seem to go,
That you don't know what you’ve got
‘Til it’s gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Hey farmer, farmer
Put away that DDT now
Give me spots on my apples
But LEAVE me the birds and the bees
Please!
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you’ve got
‘Til its gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

Late last night
I heard the screen door slam
And a big yellow taxi
Took away my old man
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you’ve got
‘Til it’s gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

I said
Don't it always seem to go
That you don't know what you’ve got
‘Til it’s gone
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot
They paved paradise
And put up a parking lot

[Zaknafien]

here's some facts and the truth on AQ and the "war" on terrorism. this paticularly comes from the enlightened view of myself and many many other intelligence analysts and islamic and middle eastern experts:

1) Osama bin Laden (OBL) is neither an evil madman or just a criminal -- he is a highly competent, religiously motivated, charismatic leader who we had best take seriously.

2) Al Qaeda is not a terrorist organization, but is rather part of and attempting to lead a global Muslim insurgency.

3) OBL & Al Qaeda are not opposed to the U.S. because of "who we are," (ie, "we stand for freedom"), but because of what we do -- because of specific aspects of U.S. foreign policy.

4) The doctrine that informs OBL/Al Qaeda is that of DEFENSIVE JIHAD -- they see the Muslim world under attack by the U.S., and call upon scripture to support defensive military action by all faithful members of the "umma" (the universal body of Islam).

5) OBL has repeatedly stated five demands for changes in U.S. foreign policy: i) end all aid to Israel, ii) withdraw military forces from the Arabian Peninsula and all Muslim territory, iii) end all involvement in Afghanistan and Iraq, iv) end U.S. support for the oppression of Muslims in China, Russia, India and elsewhere, and v) restore Muslim control of the Islamic world's energy resources for the benefit of Muslims. A sixth point is to replace U.S.-backed regimes in the Muslim world with Islamic regimes, but that is really a demand on the Muslim population.

6) The war in Afghanistan was a failure from the beginning, because OBL & the other leaders were allowed to escape at the beginning, and because the U.S. is just propping up Karzai in Kabul while the rest of the country is still in the hands of warlords and the Taliban.

7) The offensive invasion and occupation of Iraq was a huge gift to OBL -- it has just tied down more U.S. forces that otherwise could be fighting Al Qaeda, and it has become potent evidence for OBL's claim that the U.S. is aggressively targeting the Muslim world.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

1) Osama bin Laden (OBL) is neither an evil madman or just a criminal -- he is a highly competent, religiously motivated, charismatic leader who we had best take seriously.

He is an evil madman and a criminal and all the other things you mentioned as well. Again so was Hitler.


Al Qaeda is not a terrorist organization, but is rather part of and attempting to lead a global Muslim insurgency.

And use terror to gain their goals LOL What do you call that?


OBL & Al Qaeda are not opposed to the U.S. because of "who we are," (ie, "we stand for freedom"), but because of what we do -- because of specific aspects of U.S. foreign policy.


Their opposed to us because we are not Muslims


4) The doctrine that informs OBL/Al Qaeda is that of DEFENSIVE JIHAD -- they see the Muslim world under attack by the U.S., and call upon scripture to support defensive military action by all faithful members of the "umma" (the universal body of Islam).

They worry more about our attacks through media than anything else. Its our filthy eastern ways they dispise. The very ways they use against us.


5) OBL has repeatedly stated five demands for changes in U.S. foreign policy: i) end all aid to Israel, ii

Wrong again
1 that we all convert to Islam


7) The offensive invasion and occupation of Iraq was a huge gift to OBL -- it has just tied down more U.S. forces that otherwise could be fighting Al Qaeda, and it has become potent evidence for OBL's claim that the U.S. is aggressively targeting the Muslim world.
Today 21:39

It seems to have tied down most of the terrorists as well.

[Zaknafien]

pardon me, but you have no idea whatsoever of what you're talking about. i personally have extensively reveiwed dozens of al qaeda missives, manuals, and personal letters and writings, participated in interrogations with AQ members and some leaders, have studied Islam for over seven years, and have attended numerous seminars, courses, and meetings through DIA, CIA, NGIC, Centcom, JIOC, the University of Military Intelligence, and others.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

pardon me, but you have no idea whatsoever of what you're talking about. i personally have extensively reveiwed dozens of al qaeda missives, manuals, and personal letters and writings, participated in interrogations with AQ members and some leaders, have studied Islam for over seven years, and have attended numerous seminars, courses, and meetings through DIA, CIA, NGIC, Centcom, JIOC, the University of Military Intelligence, and others.

Really?

Have you ever seen this one?


(1) The first thing that we are calling you to is Islam.

(a) The religion of the Unification of God; of freedom from associating partners with Him, and rejection of this; of complete love of Him, the Exalted; of complete submission to His Laws; and of the discarding of all the opinions, orders, theories and religions which contradict with the religion He sent down to His Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). Islam is the religion of all the prophets, and makes no distinction between them - peace be upon them all.

It is to this religion that we call you; the seal of all the previous religions. It is the religion of Unification of God, sincerity, the best of manners, righteousness, mercy, honour, purity, and piety. It is the religion of showing kindness to others, establishing justice between them, granting them their rights, and defending the oppressed and the persecuted. It is the religion of enjoining the good and forbidding the evil with the hand, tongue and heart. It is the religion of Jihad in the way of Allah so that Allah's Word and religion reign Supreme. And it is the religion of unity and agreement on the obedience to Allah, and total equality between all people, without regarding their colour, sex, or language.

(b) It is the religion whose book - the Quran - will remained preserved and unchanged, after the other Divine books and messages have been changed. The Quran is the miracle until the Day of Judgment. Allah has challenged anyone to bring a book like the Quran or even ten verses like it.

(2) The second thing we call you to, is to stop your oppression, lies, immorality and debauchery that has spread among you.

(a) We call you to be a people of manners, principles, honour, and purity; to reject the immoral acts of fornication, homosexuality, intoxicants, gambling's, and trading with interest.

We call you to all of this that you may be freed from that which you have become caught up in; that you may be freed from the deceptive lies that you are a great nation, that your leaders spread amongst you to conceal from you the despicable state to which you have reached.

(b) It is saddening to tell you that you are the worst civilization witnessed by the history of mankind:

(i) You are the nation who, rather than ruling by the Shariah of Allah in its Constitution and Laws, choose to invent your own laws as you will and desire. You separate religion from your policies, contradicting the pure nature which affirms Absolute Authority to the Lord and your Creator. You flee from the embarrassing question posed to you: How is it possible for Allah the Almighty to create His creation, grant them power over all the creatures and land, grant them all the amenities of life, and then deny them that which they are most in need of: knowledge of the laws which govern their lives?

(ii) You are the nation that permits Usury, which has been forbidden by all the religions. Yet you build your economy and investments on Usury. As a result of this, in all its different forms and guises, the Jews have taken control of your economy, through which they have then taken control of your media, and now control all aspects of your life making you their servants and achieving their aims at your expense; precisely what Benjamin Franklin warned you against.

(iii) You are a nation that permits the production, trading and usage of intoxicants. You also permit drugs, and only forbid the trade of them, even though your nation is the largest consumer of them.

(iv) You are a nation that permits acts of immorality, and you consider them to be pillars of personal freedom. You have continued to sink down this abyss from level to level until incest has spread amongst you, in the face of which neither your sense of honour nor your laws object.

Who can forget your President Clinton's immoral acts committed in the official Oval office? After that you did not even bring him to account, other than that he 'made a mistake', after which everything passed with no punishment. Is there a worse kind of event for which your name will go down in history and remembered by nations?

(v) You are a nation that permits gambling in its all forms. The companies practice this as well, resulting in the investments becoming active and the criminals becoming rich.

(vi) You are a nation that exploits women like consumer products or advertising tools calling upon customers to purchase them. You use women to serve passengers, visitors, and strangers to increase your profit margins. You then rant that you support the liberation of women.

(vii) You are a nation that practices the trade of sex in all its forms, directly and indirectly. Giant corporations and establishments are established on this, under the name of art, entertainment, tourism and freedom, and other deceptive names you attribute to it.

(viii) And because of all this, you have been described in history as a nation that spreads diseases that were unknown to man in the past. Go ahead and boast to the nations of man, that you brought them AIDS as a Satanic American Invention.

(xi) You have destroyed nature with your industrial waste and gases more than any other nation in history. Despite this, you refuse to sign the Kyoto agreement so that you can secure the profit of your greedy companies and*industries.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

(xi) That which you are singled out for in the history of mankind, is that you have used your force to destroy mankind more than any other nation in history; not to defend principles and values, but to hasten to secure your interests and profits. You who dropped a nuclear bomb on Japan, even though Japan was ready to negotiate an end to the war. How many acts of oppression, tyranny and injustice have you carried out, O callers to freedom?

(xii) Let us not forget one of your major characteristics: your duality in both manners and values; your hypocrisy in manners and principles. All*manners, principles and values have two scales: one for you and one for the others.

(a)The freedom and democracy that you call to is for yourselves and for white race only; as for the rest of the world, you impose upon them your monstrous, destructive policies and Governments, which you call the 'American friends'. Yet you prevent them from establishing democracies. When the Islamic party in Algeria wanted to practice democracy and they won the election, you unleashed your agents in the Algerian army onto them, and to attack them with tanks and guns, to imprison them and torture them - a new lesson from the 'American book of democracy'!!!

(b)Your policy on prohibiting and forcibly removing weapons of mass destruction to ensure world peace: it only applies to those countries which you do not permit to possess such weapons. As for the countries you consent to, such as Israel, then they are allowed to keep and use such weapons to defend their security. Anyone else who you suspect might be manufacturing or keeping these kinds of weapons, you call them criminals and you take military action against them.

(c)You are the last ones to respect the resolutions and policies of International Law, yet you claim to want to selectively punish anyone else who does the same. Israel has for more than 50 years been pushing UN resolutions and rules against the wall with the full support of America.

(d)As for the war criminals which you censure and form criminal courts for - you shamelessly ask that your own are granted immunity!! However, history will not forget the war crimes that you committed against the Muslims and the rest of the world; those you have killed in Japan, Afghanistan, Somalia, Lebanon and Iraq will remain a shame that you will never be able to escape. It will suffice to remind you of your latest war crimes in Afghanistan, in which densely populated innocent civilian villages were destroyed, bombs were dropped on mosques causing the roof of the mosque to come crashing down on the heads of the Muslims praying inside. You are the ones who broke the agreement with the Mujahideen when they left Qunduz, bombing them in Jangi fort, and killing more than 1,000 of your prisoners through suffocation and thirst. Allah alone knows how many people have died by torture at the hands of you and your agents. Your planes remain in the Afghan skies, looking for anyone remotely suspicious.

(e)You have claimed to be the vanguards of Human Rights, and your Ministry of Foreign affairs issues annual reports containing statistics of those countries that violate any Human Rights. However, all these things vanished when the Mujahideen hit you, and you then implemented the methods of the same documented governments that you used to curse. In America, you captured thousands the Muslims and Arabs, took them into custody with neither reason, court trial, nor even disclosing their names. You issued newer, harsher laws.

What happens in Guatanamo is a historical embarrassment to America and its values, and it screams into your faces - you hypocrites, "What is the value of your signature on any agreement or treaty?"

(3) What we call you to thirdly is to take an honest stance with yourselves - and I doubt you will do so - to discover that you are a nation without principles or manners, and that the values and principles to you are something which you merely demand from others, not that which you yourself must adhere to.

(4) We also advise you to stop supporting Israel, and to end your support of the Indians in Kashmir, the Russians against the Chechens and to also cease supporting the Manila Government against the Muslims in Southern Philippines.

(5) We also advise you to pack your luggage and get out of our lands. We desire for your goodness, guidance, and righteousness, so do not force us to send you back as cargo in coffins.

(6) Sixthly, we call upon you to end your support of the corrupt leaders in our countries. Do not interfere in our politics and method of education. Leave us alone, or else expect us in New York and Washington.

(7) We also call you to deal with us and interact with us on the basis of mutual interests and benefits, rather than the policies of sub dual, theft and occupation, and not to continue your policy of supporting the Jews because this will result in more disasters for you.

If you fail to respond to all these conditions, then prepare for fight with the Islamic Nation. The Nation of Monotheism, that puts complete trust on Allah and fears none other than Him. The Nation which is addressed by its Quran with the words: "Do you fear them? Allah has more right that you should fear Him if you are believers. Fight against them so that Allah will punish them by your hands and disgrace them and give you victory over them and heal the breasts of believing people. And remove the anger of their (believers') hearts. Allah accepts the repentance of whom He wills. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise." [Quran9:13-1]

The Nation of honour and respect:

"But honour, power and glory belong to Allah, and to His Messenger (Muhammad- peace be upon him) and to the believers." [Quran 63:8]

"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be*superior ( in victory )if you are indeed (true) believers" [Quran 3:139]

The Nation of Martyrdom; the Nation that desires death more than you desire life:

"Think not of those who are killed in the way of Allah as dead. Nay, they are alive with their Lord, and they are being provided for. They rejoice in what Allah has bestowed upon them from His bounty and rejoice for the sake of those who have not yet joined them, but are left behind (not yet martyred) that on them no fear shall come, nor shall they grieve. They rejoice in a grace and a bounty from Allah, and that Allah will not waste the reward of the believers." [Quran 3:169-171]

The Nation of victory and success that Allah has promised:

"It is He Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad peace be upon him) with guidance and the religion of truth (Islam), to make it victorious over all other religions even though the Polytheists hate it." [Quran 61:9]

"Allah has decreed that 'Verily it is I and My Messengers who shall be victorious.' Verily Allah is All-Powerful, All-Mighty." [Quran 58:21]

The Islamic Nation that was able to dismiss and destroy the previous evil Empires like yourself; the Nation that rejects your attacks, wishes to remove your evils, and is prepared to fight you. You are well aware that the Islamic Nation, from the very core of its soul, despises your haughtiness and arrogance.

If the Americans refuse to listen to our advice and the goodness, guidance and righteousness that we call them to, then be aware that you will lose this Crusade Bush began, just like the other previous Crusades in which you were humiliated by the hands of the Mujahideen, fleeing to your home in great silence and disgrace. If the Americans do not respond, then their fate will be that of the Soviets who fled from Afghanistan to deal with their military defeat, political breakup, ideological downfall, and economic bankruptcy.

This is our message to the Americans, as an answer to theirs. Do they now know why we fight them and over which form of ignorance, by the permission of Allah, we shall be victorious?

Notice #1 and #4 Now I ask you who wrote that?

[Zaknafien]

This document is not entirely authentic, you know. And to understand "Al-Qaeda" (an artificial label our leaders have given the public to i.d. their enemy), you have to understand the nebulous, loose alliance of dozens of groups of islamists around the globe. there is no chain of command nor a central doctrine. UBL has always spoken of withdraw of the US from muslim lands, stop supporting oppressive regimes, and allowing muslims to reap the benefits of the oil they see as rightfully theirs. He has never issued a call for Americans to turn to Islam en masse, for according to the Quran this is not the path to enlightenment and submission to Allah.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This document is not entirely authentic

What parts? Your claiming he didnt write that?


for according to the Quran this is not the path to enlightenment and submission to Allah.

I hear their are many different opinions even among Muslims on that.

[Watchman]

#1 basically reads "you too should join us in this fine and glorious faith" - the standard missionary invitation.

If that was penned by Osama, he gets points for eloquence and wit. He also gets tagged a hardline reactionary and a would-be global guerilla leader, but I don't think that's exactly breaking news...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

It was in every paper in america. No one then ever disputed it.

[Tribesman]

This document is not entirely authentic, you know.
That isn't hard to spot is it .
But don't shatter Gawains illusions:laugh4:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Are you guys going by this? LINK (http://www.trixiepixgraphics.com/extras/bin_Laden_letter_to_America.html)

[Tribesman]

Are you guys going by this?
Nope , look at what you posted , spot what is missing , missing lots and lots of times , in fact it is only present once .
Its a dead giveway when dealing with stuff from actual genuine religeous fruitcakes who claim to be of the Islamic persuation .

[Zaknafien]

Uh, I'm going on the knowledge I have of how captured documents get leaked to the media after first being filtered and twinked with by several layers of people.

Not to mention the text is at odds with several of UBL's historically known positions and style. (just like the so-called "confession tape" released by the pentagon in december 2001.) But let's not go into "conspiracy" theories. UBL is indeed real and does wish to strike at America but a global call for conversion to Islam is most definately not his style. There are several other little pieces within that text that are not in agreement with Islam, or bin laden's known correspondence.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Nope , look at what you posted , spot what is missing , missing lots and lots of times , in fact it is only present once .
Its a dead giveway when dealing with stuff from actual genuine religeous fruitcakes who claim to be of the Islamic persuation .

PSSSt I didnt print the whole thing praise Alah pbuh