I love being European, but sometimes I feel very, very ashamed

[Banquo's Ghost]

There was a story on the abandonment of illegal immigrants to their fate last week that I nearly posted, but now we have gone even further (http://news.independent.co.uk/europe/article2588985.ece).

Illegal immigration is a major problem for us in Europe, but surely we can still think of these people as human? Years of deriding poverty-stricken people who are so desperate for a new life as spongers, feckless, and worse have led to us being able to treat them like this.

If you have the stomach for it, look at the photo on the home page (http://www.independent.co.uk/). Think of each one of those tiny, terrified people being dragged through the Mediterranean as yourself, what you would feel looking at your wife and child clinging to a tuna net.

:shame:

Europe's shame

By Peter Popham in Rome
Published: 28 May 2007

For three days and three nights, these African migrants clung desperately to life. Their means of survival is a tuna net, being towed across the Mediterranean by a Maltese tug that refused to take them on board after their frail boat sank.

Malta and Libya, where they had embarked on their perilous journey, washed their hands of them. Eventually, they were rescued by the Italian navy.

The astonishing picture shows them hanging on to the buoys that support the narrow runway that runs around the top of the net. They had had practically nothing to eat or drink.

Last night, on the island of Lampedusa, the 27 young men - from Ghana, Nigeria, Cameroon, Sudan and other countries - told of their ordeal. As their flimsy boat from Libya floundered adrift for six days, two fishing boats failed to rescue them. On Wednesday, the Maltese boat, the Budafel allowed them to mount the walkway but refused to have them on board.

This is the latest snapshot from the killing seas of the southern Mediterranean, the stretch of water at the European Union's southern gate that the UN High Commissioner for Refugees says "has become like the Wild West, where human life has no value any more and people are left to their fate".

On Friday, The Independent reported how a Maltese plane photographed a crazily overloaded boat in this area carrying 53 Eritreans, several of whom telephoned desperate pleas for help to relatives in London, Italy and Malta. The boat disappeared with all hands before anything was done to save them. They died, not because help was unavailable, but because no-one wanted to do anything. Malta is full up. Libya, where these voyages begin, takes no responsibility. One might think that the EU's new frontiers agency, Frontex, had a part to play. But its "rapid response team" remains on the drawing board.

Frontex is expected to begin joint patrols in the Mediterranean shortly, following a brief pilot programme last year. But the critical stretch between Malta and Libya is to be controlled by Malta and Greece, and the hard-nosed attitude of the Maltese in recent weeks does not inspire optimism.

The Maltese captain of the Budafel refused to land the men, he later explained, because he had $1m-worth of tuna in the pen. If he had taken them to Malta, the trip would have taken 12 days, given the tug's slow speed. There, he would have found himself in the middle of a diplomatic wrangle. "I couldn't take the risk of losing this catch," he said.

The captain informed the Maltese authorities. The Maltese phoned the Libyans - the Africans were about 60 miles from the Libyan coast, within Libya's area of competence for search and rescue. Libya said they would send a helicopter to the spot and throw down a life raft. Malta - by this point Prime Minister Lawrence Gonzi had become directly involved - said that was unacceptable. They gave Malta's armed forces the task of persuading the Libyans to pick the men up.

The 27 had by this point spent three days and nights standing on the walkway, which is 18 inches wide. The Budafel's captain said he wouldn't mind being on the walkway for an hour. Any longer - under the fierce sun, or in the chill of the night - no thanks.

The Libyan government eventually sent a fax saying they would pick the men up. But no help arrived. The Maltese steadfastly refused to take the initiative. In the past five days, 157 illegal immigrants have come ashore on the Maltese coast. The small island is full to capacity. The impasse continued all Saturday.

By a stroke of luck an Italian navy vessel, Orione, was not far away: last week Libya had given Italy permission to search for the 53 doomed Eritreans, and it was still in the area, still searching.

The Italian navy dispatched first a plane and then the Orione. By 9pm on Saturday night, after more than 70 hours clinging to the pen, they were on their way to Sicily. Last night, they were reported to be weak and exhausted but out of danger. For them it's a happy ending. But in the past five days, sources in Malta say four other boats have gone down, with the loss of about 120 lives. As Laura Boldrini of the UNHCR puts it, "setting off across the Mediterranean in these boats is a game of Russian roulette".

Up to 10,000 people are believed to have drowned trying to cross the Mediterranean from Africa. The passage from west Africa to the Canary Islands is no less perilous. In Spain, where shocking images of a dozen dead would-be migrants in their boat were published in newspapers last week, estimates of the total number of dead run as high as 7,000.

"Governments must encourage fishermen to save human life," says Laura Boldrini. "Now they fear that if they help, they can be stuck for days and weeks. But international maritime law says governments have a duty to allow the speedy disembarkation of people rescued at sea. We say, let's save human lives first. This must be the priority for all the parties involved."

[SwordsMaster]

Jaysus. Leaving people to die for tuna, is a tad harsh. Kudos to the italians though, while Malta and Lybia were trying to outmanoevre each other, they were the only ones who did something...

Is it just me, or emi/immi - gration procedures in the N.African - Southern European countries need to be revisited?

And there is also the fact that Lybia should be ashamed. 53 of their citizens frowning, while they bicker on the phone...

[Redleg]

Hopefully there is a law to throw some ship's captain into a dark hole somewhere

[InsaneApache]

I read about this earlier. Astonishing, quite astonishing. I'm not making excuses for the skipper of the trawler but wasn't there a problem a while back with a Spanish fisherman picking up the survivors of a sinking boat. Then he was not allowed to sail into port because of the illegals?

On another note, a guy who I do business with was in the Canaries last year. There he was sunning himself on the beach, sunblock 25 applied, nice cold beer in hand, when these 'people' suddenly appeared on the shore. Their boat was sinking and they were in a bad way. He said that these guys were on the verge of death. The holidaymakers ran to them, proffering bottles of mineral water. He said that he'd never seen folks in such a dire condition. He was very impressed about how the tourists responded, but like he said, "What were we supposed to do?", "They were dying in front of our eyes and we were all sat there drinking beer and eating barsnacks in our swimming trunks".

Sort of makes the 'problem' a little more human doesn't it?

[English assassin]

Hopefully there is a law to throw some ship's captain into a dark hole somewhere

It certainly does seem to violate what I thought was the overriding duty of a captain at sea, namely to save lives, doesn't it?

Rather like those everest mountaineers who walk past dying bodies on their way to the summit, every one of whom dishonours the memories of real mountaineers everywhere. But I digress.

The captain is but a small, small cog in a big machine though. If illegal immigrants were received politely, given a shower, a meal, and clean set of clothes, and then put on a flight back to [whereever] in under 12 hours, then the captain might have taken them on board, and indeed the immigrants might stop coming.

Oh yeah, and stabilising the countries they come from would also be good, although I confess I have very little idea how you start.

[SwordsMaster]

It certainly does seem to violate what I thought was the overriding duty of a captain at sea, namely to save lives, doesn't it?

Rather like those everest mountaineers who walk past dying bodies on their way to the summit, every one of whom dishonours the memories of real mountaineers everywhere. But I digress.

The captain is but a small, small cog in a big machine though. If illegal immigrants were received politely, given a shower, a meal, and clean set of clothes, and then put on a flight back to [whereever] in under 12 hours, then the captain might have taken them on board, and indeed the immigrants might stop coming.

Oh yeah, and stabilising the countries they come from would also be good, although I confess I have very little idea how you start.

Stabilising is a funny word when applied to a country. A country can be stable and yet its population be so desperate so as to prefer a week of sea to staying home.

If is, however in the best interest of Europe to aid in the development of, at least those countries that serve as the port from which these immigrants set off. Namely those in the mediterranean basin, and the NW African coast.

This being said, though, some discipline must be applied too. Something akin to what's happening with IRan's nuclear program. Severe penalties should be imposed if immigration systems are not revamped, and local economy not developed.

I mean, being a government kind of means that some responsibilty must be taken...

[InsaneApache]

I mean, being a government kind of means that some responsibilty must be taken...

Sadly not the case in Africa. :shame:

[SwordsMaster]

Sadly not the case in Africa. :shame:

Almost makes you miss the good old Soviet Union days... :shame:

[Zaknafien]

This is awful. Situation is very similar in America, except here you have right-wing propagandists declaring "the illegals" our enemy and something to be afraid of instead of poverty-stricken people we need to help get a better life.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Situation is very similar in America, except here you have right-wing propagandists declaring "the illegals" our enemy and something to be afraid of instead of poverty-stricken people we need to help get a better life.

It is not. Lets take in everyone. Also both liberals and conservatives oppose illegal immigration as should everyone. Everyone does but the politicians it seems. Maybe you believe in open borders but most of us dont .

[Zaknafien]

Hm, what would you say the number one opposition to 'illegal' immigration is?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Its illegal :laugh4: Ok It costs us a bundle. Also why have immigration laws if you dont enforce them. Let me ask. Are you in favor of open borders? If not i dont see how you have a leg to stand on.

[SwordsMaster]

It is not. Lets take in everyone. Also both liberals and conservatives oppose illegal immigration as should everyone. Everyone does but the politicians it seems. Maybe you believe in open borders but most of us dont .

I am curious here, since illegal immigrants don't vote, and don't pay taxes that politicians can later milk, how is illegal immigration good for them?


See, while I agree with you in that the law should be enforced, but maybe it is not a good law that can't be enforced. If the general attitude has changed maybe a new law governing this area should be made. Nothing wrong with tearing up and writing up new constitutions every now and then...

And Legal immigration should be inforced in the countries immigrants come from. I mean, if a guy leaves Sudan to go work in Spain or Italy, you can't let him get to Morocco before teeling him to go back. It's too late. He's commited. However, if back in Sudan you told him it isn't happening, and explained him why and how to do it legally, the results might be different.

[Zaknafien]

Ok, its illegal--why? look at the history of US immigration. how many times has the law been changed and why? let's change it back to the way it was and there, its no longer illegal.

It costs. So youre willing to deny millions of people the opportunity of a decent life beause you don't want your taxes raised by a percentage point or two? not to mention that new citizens = new tax income.

I am in favor of open borders, theres no need to deny people freedom.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

I am curious here, since illegal immigrants don't vote, and don't pay taxes that politicians can later milk, how is illegal immigration good for them?

Oh but they do vote. Also they pay some taxes and if as has happened in the past they get amnesty they get to be citizens. Thats how.



See, while I agree with you in that the law should be enforced, but maybe it is not a good law that can't be enforced. If the general attitude has changed maybe a new law governing this area should be made. Nothing wrong with tearing up and writing up new constitutions every now and then...

Ok Ill ask you the same question I asked Zaknafien. Do you favor open borders? And that should be for all nations right? The general attitude of the peope hasnt changed. In fact most are up in arms about it. Were sick and tired of it.



And Legal immigration should be inforced in the countries immigrants come from. I mean, if a guy leaves Sudan to go work in Spain or Italy, you can't let him get to Morocco before teeling him to go back. It's too late. He's commited. However, if back in Sudan you told him it isn't happening, and explained him why and how to do it legally, the results might be different.

You do know the Mexican government encourages its people to migrate here illegally?



Ok, its illegal--why? look at the history of US immigration. how many times has the law been changed and why? let's change it back to the way it was and there, its no longer illegal.

When? When we had 13 colonies and all of the continent lay before us? So you do favor open borders?


t costs. So youre willing to deny millions of people the opportunity of a decent life beause you don't want your taxes raised by a percentage point or two? not to mention that new citizens = new tax income.


Percentage points? Also is illegal immigration the only way we can add new citizens? Do you know that half our jail population in some states is illegal immigrants and thats not why their in jail?


I am in favor of open borders, theres no need to deny people freedom.

Do you realise how quickly we would be over run?

[Major Robert Dump]

Is Tuna worth more per pound than Ghanans?

[Don Corleone]

Well, don't just talk a good game. If you really feel that strongly, sell all your possessions and send them to the UN commission on refugees or some other organization dedicated to helping the extreme poor of the world.

For that matter, do you donate anything?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

And tell the rest of your family to do the same :laugh4:

From each according to his ability, to each according to his need

[SwordsMaster]

Oh but they do vote. Also they pay some taxes and if as has happened in the past they get amnesty they get to be citizens. Thats how.


This is what I cannot understand. Why would they vote? how is it possible that they pay taxes?

Amnesties every now and then are necessary to at least know how many immigrants has the country taken in over the last few years after the previous amnesty. They are not put forward to hurt your rights.



Ok Ill ask you the same question I asked Zaknafien. Do you favor open borders? And that should be for all nations right? The general attitude of the peope hasnt changed. In fact most are up in arms about it. Were sick and tired of it.

I do not favour open borders. What I hate is the hypocrisy. You don't want mexican immigrants, stop bragging about the "american lifestyle" abroad, keep your MTV for yourselves. The saddest thing I ever saw, was this african kid from Burkina Faso who wanted to be a rapper... And the family barely had enough money to put him through school.



You do know the Mexican government encourages its people to migrate here illegally?

I did not know that, but maybe that is where the money would be better spent...



When? When we had 13 colonies and all of the continent lay before us? So you do favor open borders?

You are right, the needs have changed. Isn't it an uncanny american ability to make everything about the US?
The fact that the needs have changed in 300 years, doesn't mean they aren't or can't change now...



Do you realise how quickly we would be over run?

And what is it exactly you are afraid of? Change? Or the fact that you'll see more people with darker skin when you are walking the dog? Or that there'll be more mexican restaurants in the vicinity?

[Grey_Fox]

For fishermen lke the fella in the story above that tuna is his lifeblood for the year. if he was detained, prevented from landing and caught up in legal proceedings long enough that he catch would not be viable, how would he and his crew feed their families?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Why would they vote?

Why does anyone vote?


how is it possible that they pay taxes?

Because to get a job on the books here the taxes are taken out automatically. Only those who work off the books dont pay taxes.


Amnesties every now and then are necessary to at least know how many immigrants has the country taken in over the last few years after the previous amnesty

Thats your opinion. If you know that if you can evade the law long enough you will become a citizen, you dont think that encourages illegal immigration?


They are not put forward to hurt your rights.

They dont affect my rights in the least.


You don't want mexican immigrants

I have no problem with Mexican immigrants nor do most Americans unless their bigots or racisits.


You are right, the needs have changed. Isn't it an uncanny american ability to make everything about the US?
The fact that the needs have changed in 300 years, doesn't mean they aren't or can't change now...

Come on lets be practical. We dont have the room for all the worlds poor and even if we did wouldnt that make us all poorer? Is there that much money and work here ?


And what is it exactly you are afraid of? Change? Or the fact that you'll see more pe

Change? How about a place to live? I dont think you have a clue on this topic. Where will we put them all. How will we feed them? Do you have any idea how many people would flock to the USA if we opened our borders? Terrible a country as you all claim us to be. Why the hell would anyone want to come here.

[SwordsMaster]

Why does anyone vote?


Beyond the obvious, how can anyone who isn't a registered citizen vote?




Thats your opinion. If you know that if you can evade the law long enough you will become a citizen, you dont think that encourages illegal immigration?


Exactly why the emphasis should be on discouraging emigration in the countries of origin as opposed to the destination, where the whole journey has already been made.



I have no problem with Mexican immigrants nor do most Americans unless their bigots or racisits.


Ok, fair enough, i didn't mean it in the racist way, just as an example population.



Come on lets be practical. We dont have the room for all the worlds poor and even if we did wouldnt that make us all poorer? Is there that much money and work here ?


Isn't there? Since according to you they all come in anyway, and they do work somewhere.... And wouldn't they pay taxes?



Change? How about a place to live? I dont think you have a clue on this topic. Where will we put them all. How will we feed them? Do you have any idea how many people would flock to the USA if we opened our borders? Terrible a country as you all claim us to be. Why the hell would anyone want to come here.

Again, I am not arguing for open borders. I am arguing for a more humane approach to people's lives. And how would immigration affect you personally? Do you really think your government would kick you out of your home? Or any of those immigrants would? Please.

I for one don't really know why would anyone want to go to the US more than they'd want to go anywhere else, but that is just me.

[Hosakawa Tito]

I always thought the "common law of the seas" was to aid those in peril. Even during war-time, the enemy sailors of a sunken ship were rescued if possible.
The tuna captain, or anyone else should be fiscally compensated for any economic loss incured in such a rescue. If that's not an international law, then the UN should make it a priority and fund such a program.

[HoreTore]

The best answer: open the borders completely. Or better yet, remove the borders.

I can't really understand why I have a greater right to live where I do than anyone else has, just because I'm born here. I don't understand how anyone can deny me the freedom to live where I want to.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Isn't there? Since according to you they all come in anyway, and they do work somewhere.... And wouldn't they pay taxes?

You know I never said that.


Exactly why the emphasis should be on discouraging emigration in the countries of origin as opposed to the destination, where the whole journey has already been made.


WE told them not to come.


Again, I am not arguing for open borders. I am arguing for a more humane approach to people's lives. And how would immigration affect you personally? Do you really think your government would kick you out of your home? Or any of those immigrants would? Please.

For the very last time I and most americans are in favor of immigration. Its how this nation was built, But do it legally. Our immigration policies are humane.

[Rodion Romanovich]

@HoreTore: Because then the entire world would become overpopulated. Cultures that don't condemn overreproduction shouldn't be allowed to migrate to areas where the culture does, because that would mean a genocide/assimilation of the local group, and deny the locals all their rights/freedom, much like the native indians. The solution to problems abroad isn't massive immigration, but to fix their problems at home. Helping one immigrant costs as much as saving 1000 in their homeland. Feeling sorry for illegal immigrants and opening the borders would mean the death of millions that can't receive foreign aid because state expenses have to go to the more costly needs of immigrants. That's why immigration should be restricted to fugitives from dictatorships, fugitives from war, and other grave cases where not moving means certain death, or to people who won't need any monetary aid when they come. This means that people that are just looking for an improvment from a bad life to a better one needs to have lower priority.

[SwordsMaster]

For the very last time I and most americans are in favor of immigration. Its how this nation was built, But do it legally. Our immigration policies are humane.

Really? It is harder to get into the US than it is to get into Israel or Russia. I actually stopped at a US embassy a few days ago, as I have to go there for work, and i have to present documentation to justify pretty much every single movement i made, from beach holidays to morning commute, and not only that, i wasn't even allowed into the embassy, but was given a card by a (rude and full of himself) army sargent and told to check the website.

How very welcoming and humane. This is just to get a 9 month Visa mind you, no word on semi-permanent residence or anything of the sort.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Really? It is harder to get into the US than it is to get into Israel or Russia.

Because more people want to come here. Tell me how our immigration laws are inhumane. What do you suggest we change?

[SwordsMaster]

Because more people want to come here. Tell me how our immigration laws are inhumane. What do you suggest we change?

Firstly, I do not want to be told off by some sargent, I am not a recruit, and have no desire to take orders from military unless at war.

Secondly, there is no justification whatsoever for being rude.

Thirdly, my personal travels are mine. I am not a US citizen, and I am to be presumed innocent until proven otherwise, right? I have nothing to hide, but I don't walk around naked either. I think this is, again, basic privacy and crossing it without invitation is rude.

So if more immigrants wish to come to the US, the ridiculous control procedures must be placed to discourage applicants? Ironically, those who bother adhering to the procedures are the legal immigrants, so the illegal immigration problem is still there, and encouraged for people who cannot provide the relevant documentation. Perhaps if the procedures were relaxed, more people would immigrate legally, and would have a better opinion of american law abroad.

[Zaknafien]

believe it or not before i joined the army I actually worked for INS as it was changing over to BCIS. i left a pretty good government job to enlist into the military after 9/11. Our immigration policies are anything but humane, they're ludicrous. Indeed, its harder to get to the US and involves more paperwork and fees and fines than 80% of the world can afford.

Fact: There is plenty of living space in the United States, vast swathes of the West and Central Plains are virtually uninhabited. That argument is simply fear-mongering.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Firstly, I do not want to be told off by some sargent, I am not a recruit, and have no desire to take orders from military unless at war.

Secondly, there is no justification whatsoever for being rude.

Thirdly, my personal travels are mine. I am not a US citizen, and I am to be presumed innocent until proven otherwise, right? I have nothing to hide, but I don't walk around naked either. I think this is, again, basic privacy and crossing it without invitation is rude.


None of this has anything to do with our immigration policies. It does have to do with obtaining Visas and an :daisy: who is interviewing you it seems.


So if more immigrants wish to come to the US, the ridiculous control procedures must be placed to discourage applicants?

Be specific. Exactly what what immigration law should be relaxed? What again should we change? Dont you think your being cheated having to go through all this just to visit while a Mexican can just walk across the border?


Perhaps if the procedures were relaxed, more people would immigrate legally, and would have a better opinion of american law abroad.

Thats like saying if we legalize everything we would cut down on crime.:laugh4:

[SwordsMaster]

While it is a pain to go through all these procedures, I don't think a mexican 'just' walks across the border. I think it is a decision he takes quite seriously.

In any case, I think a decent approach would be to every year publish a list of all the jobs that have not been filled, and advertise it in the countries that provide most immigrants, with job applications taking place in their countries of origin, and then allowing immigration to those who have successfully passed through the process...

You could argue that a free market economy will do that for you, but I think that since it is a nation-wide problem, perhaps the government should take a more active part in the process.

Another possible solution is to offer higher salaries to qualified us citizens who emigrate to these countries, as this will both "free" space in the US, and add to the economy of the affected country therefore increasing the quality of life.

For example. I'm not an economist or a politician, and these are just off the top of my head.

And you are right, perhaps my view of US immigration is worsened by the :daisy: I had to deal with, but imagine what those poor mexicans have to deal with.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

While it is a pain to go through all these procedures, I don't think a mexican 'just' walks across the border. I think it is a decision he takes quite seriously.

Well its a lot simpler than what you have to go through. Once he makes up his mind its pretty much that easy.


n any case, I think a decent approach would be to every year publish a list of all the jobs that have not been filled, and advertise it in the countries that provide most immigrants, with job applications taking place in their countries of origin, and then allowing immigration to those who have successfully passed through the process...


Do you know anything about our policies? :shame:


but imagine what those poor mexicans have to deal with.

Mostly this

EDIT: You need to host pictures yourself, not link directly to them, I'm afraid. Note to readers: It was a picture of Wile E Coyote. BG

[SwordsMaster]

Do you know anything about our policies? :shame:


Not a lot, I must confess. I do know a bit the european ones, which is what the topic was about initially. It doesn't change the fact that having thousands of people die at the border is unacceptable. Whichever country owns the border.



:laugh4: Nice

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Our immigration policies are anything but humane, they're ludicrous. Indeed, its harder to get to the US and involves more paperwork and fees and fines than 80% of the world can afford.

Your right. Filling out paper work and charging fees is inhumane :laugh4:

Try getting into Canada sometime.


Not a lot, I must confess. I do know a bit the european ones, which is what the topic was about initially. It doesn't change the fact that having thousands of people die at the border is unacceptable. Whichever country owns the border.


We have quotas involving education and jobs. We look to have people immigrate here in the fields we need. Dont believe all that bunk written on the statue of Liberty. The french wrote that. Keep are you damned poor and unwashed right where they are. Send us your best :laugh4: But really we have a program much as you suggest.

[Tribesman]

Dont believe all that bunk written on the statue of Liberty. The french wrote that. :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Im glad you saw the humor in it. I wasnt serious.

[Tribesman]

Im glad you saw the humor in it. I wasnt serious.:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:

[Grey_Fox]

The reason there's a strict immigration policy in Europe is because if the borders were opened the social welfare systems of most of the EU contries would totally collapse.

France already has something like 15% unemployment and Germany something like 20%. We've already seen some of the effects of this in the riots last year - imagine if the numbers were to substantially increase.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Im glad you saw the humor in it. I wasnt serious.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:


I know it was written by Emma Lazarus and inscribed on the statue but I dont know if shes French . I can never tell if your laughing with me or at me

[KrooK]

I think I will never buy Maltanese tunea.


Anyway have you heard news from Russia.
18-year-old russian guy killed 37 people from Caucasus because he wanted clean Moscow from "Mongols".

[Lorenzo_H]

It's nice to see the Italian navy picking them up.

How did they survive clinging to that net without any fresh water?

[Sir Moody]

on these boards we often see quite a few posters who believe the capitalist form of civilization is a great benefit and there is nothing wrong with it - this story shows how wrong this is, as with any capitalist society a life has a price tag - the tuna were worth more than the immigrants and so the captain chose the right choice (by the capitalist view point) - any civilization that values a item (the fish in this case) less than a human life is in severe need of a shake up - currently no government would reimburse the loss's the captain would have taken if he had delivered the immigrants and so the fish are far more valuable...

[PanzerJaeger]

They should not have broken the law. What happened to them is no one's fault but their own.

[Papewaio]

The maritime captain broke the law. Pity he isn't swinging from a yardarm. All his catch should have been impounded and the profits go to Italy for doing the right thing.

[Adrian II]

Illegal immigration is a major problem for us in Europe, but surely we can still think of these people as human?Horrible as it may be, that tuna net was the captain's decision, not EU policy...

[Banquo's Ghost]

Horrible as it may be, that tuna net was the captain's decision, not EU policy...

You are right of course, but the EU's abysmal policies on immigration lead to these kind of decisions being taken. That captain is just one among many - at least he gave them a tuna net to cling to, most sail on by. The story illustrates not just one instance of inhumanity, but the bankruptcy of Europe's immigration policy.

The northern countries which are the destination of many of these migrants put enormous pressure on the frontier countries and the Magreb, without an awful lot in the way of practical support. Indeed, they mostly get condemnation, as happened to Spain a couple of years ago for granting an amnesty. Everyone blames everyone else, so it's no wonder that the more unscrupulous think that landing their tuna is far preferable to the blame game.

The flow of migrants is not going to stop - with desertification and economic disaster encroaching around the Sahel, it is only going to increase. Instead of trying to shape a Fortress Europe policy that is bound to fail - politicians should look at a map of Europe for once and measure the borders, alongside a consideration of the enormous courage human beings can show to overcome adversity - we need to be imaginative.

Most importantly would be to set up mechanisms whereby it is attractive for people to stay in their own countries, and pathways for workers to immigrate legally and without relying on traffickers. The economic costs of uncontrolled immigration are high and getting higher - it would be worth our while investing in such proactive measures. Politically however, it gets harder and harder to sell the idea, as more politicians grab the populist, anti-immigration placards and in so doing, make the immigrants faceless and inhuman.

At its hardest, the suggestion made earlier to rescue, feed, process and then deport back within 24 hours would at least have the merit of humanity.

Hoping that they will all drown and thus go away is a policy only PanzerJager would be proud of.

[Fragony]

Sucks to be them, but hey it's getting kinda crowded. Let's not forget that they are victims of the human-trafficking industry, a very cynical industry that costs thousands of lifes a year.

[Hepcat]

This is not totally related, but the Spanish teacher at our school (who is actually Canadian but lived in Spain for 15 years) was telling us about one time when she was living in Valencia (I think it was) she was called out in the middle of the night by Spanish authorities who wanted a French translator because they'd found an illegal immigrant from Africa hidden in a shipping container.

So she went down and it was a young African boy and all she could see was his teeth and eyes through the slit in the shipping container since he wasn't allowed out. She said it was one of the hardest things she'd ever done telling him how he wasn't allowed to get out of the container and was going to be sent back to his country.

Yes I am in favour of open borders. I don't see why people should suffer just because of some silly fear of a hostile takeover. We get lots of immigrants here, particularly from Asia, particularly in Auckland. My mother helped teach a really nice Sri Lankan lady English and helped her gain her citizenship. They are very good friends of our family now and some of the stories she has of the civil war there are quite unreal.

They say Auckland is turning Asian, and to some extents that is true, but I'm not worried. Reading the Aeneid in Classics this year and it is a story of refugees who end up settling in a new land and making it great.

There can be positives to immigration as well people! For starters Sri Lankan food is really nice. :2thumbsup:

Anyway, that's my 10 cents worth.
:bow:

[Fragony]

We don't have enough houses, not enough schools not enough work. There is nothing for these people here. And each and every one of them takes the place of someone who may actually need shelter, the real refugees, the ones we are doing it for.

[AntiochusIII]

We don't have enough houses, not enough schools not enough work. There is nothing for these people here. And each and every one of them takes the place of someone who may actually need shelter, the real refugees, the ones we are doing it for.They are refugees, in a sense; escaping economic disaster rather than a political one.

No offense, and not directed to Fragony, but Europe really needs to get over its racism and inertia.

[Grey_Fox]

As I said before, the social welfare and health systems would be overwhelmed and collapse unless there were major reforms (read: major cutback in expenditure). 50% of female black refugees who gave birth in University College Hospital Galway had either AIDS or HIV - who's going to pay for their treatment? It's not going to be them at any rate.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Some people really need a reality check.

[ajaxfetish]

believe it or not before i joined the army I actually worked for INS as it was changing over to BCIS. i left a pretty good government job to enlist into the military after 9/11. Our immigration policies are anything but humane, they're ludicrous. Indeed, its harder to get to the US and involves more paperwork and fees and fines than 80% of the world can afford.

Fact: There is plenty of living space in the United States, vast swathes of the West and Central Plains are virtually uninhabited. That argument is simply fear-mongering.
There's a slight difference between simply having room to fit more people and having the resources on hand to support those people. Granted, there is a lot we can do to to make it work anyway, but the western US is mostly desert, and in many places is already supporting more people than it really should (for example, the Colorado River doesn't have a mouth. The entire thing is used up before it makes it to the sea, and people still fight over who gets a bigger or smaller share of it.)

Ajax

[Husar]

I don't always get the economic argument because if we need more houses and more food, we also need more building companies and more food companies, which will create more jobs, so these people can get jobs and pay for their houses and their food and become rich and buy TVs so we need more TV factories etc. Sounds more like a booming economy, most of our economies depend on there being more kids than old people but we don't breed enough, so we end up paying more for old people than the younger ones can earn, with young immigrants,we might be able to fix that, the only problem being that sometime in the future, we'd really be overpopulated. So the only real solution is birth control in poor countries which are overpopulated. Poor families get 10 kids so that those kids can care for their parents later, but if all 10 of those kids will never get a job, why do they still breed that much? And on a sidenote, this "let's breed kids so they can generate money for us"-attitude some people in the third world have, is not much better than any other capitalistic attitude IMO.

[HoreTore]

There can be positives to immigration as well people! For starters Sri Lankan food is really nice. :2thumbsup:

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I would have starved to death if it wasn't for immigration. Norwegian food tastes utterly crap. If I hadn't had access to the indish, pakistani, turkish, etc food, life wouldn't be worth living.

[Adrian II]

You are right of course, but the EU's abysmal policies on immigration lead to these kind of decisions being taken. That captain is just one among many - at least he gave them a tuna net to cling to, most sail on by. The story illustrates not just one instance of inhumanity, but the bankruptcy of Europe's immigration policy.Great post again, but a hard act to realise.

Some people will behave callously in any economic system (capitalism is no exception) and within any political entity. Maritime law is rather ambiguous when it comes to rights and obligations on the high seas. There is no effecient mechanism that would compensate for the loss of the fisherman's tuna. I agree with you however that on European territory (including European territorial waters) we could and should do more.

Proactive policies are already in place, but they are often counterproductive in the sense that projecting European wealth and lifestyles into poor areas invites more migration rather then less. Controlled migration may be a solution, though I fail to see how the public would swallow this without severe restrictions that make it practically redundant (for instance a clause that controlled migration should fill a demonstrable shortage of labour in the host country).

Yes, we need to be imaginative, Banquo's Ghost. I guess I just lack the imagination right now. Many productive policies are impossible to sell to the mass of Europeans with their present attitude, as exemplified by some posts above.

[Incongruous]

They are refugees, in a sense; escaping economic disaster rather than a political one.

No offense, and not directed to Fragony, but Europe really needs to get over its racism and inertia.

Dude, c'mon, think about reality!

[Grey_Fox]

I don't always get the economic argument because if we need more houses and more food, we also need more building companies and more food companies, which will create more jobs, so these people can get jobs and pay for their houses and their food and become rich and buy TVs so we need more TV factories etc. Sounds more like a booming economy

Yeah but who's going to pay for the houses to be built? Generally refugees and immigrants in general don't have a whole lot of money on them when they enter their new country and the cost of housing them is passed onto the social welfare system, and the amount of money a nation has access to is finite. Taxes would need to be increased in order to pay for the increased number of immigrants.

[Adrian II]

Yeah but who's going to pay for the houses to be built? Generally refugees and immigrants in general don't have a whole lot of money on them when they enter their new country and the cost of housing them is passed onto the social welfare system, and the amount of money a nation has access to is finite. Taxes would need to be increased in order to pay for the increased number of immigrants.One point that Banquo's Ghost made is that migration will inevitably continue and that we should think of ways to make it a productive instead of a wasteful process. In that way migration would at least partially pay for itself. It already does in may ways which we refuse to recognise. Not only is the contribution of legal migrants to European GDP considerable, but so is the contribution of the so-called black labour market of illegal immigrants. Employing migrants actually saves taxes for both big and small companies...

[Kralizec]

The Maltese captain of the Budafel refused to land the men, he later explained, because he had $1m-worth of tuna in the pen. If he had taken them to Malta, the trip would have taken 12 days, given the tug's slow speed. There, he would have found himself in the middle of a diplomatic wrangle. "I couldn't take the risk of losing this catch," he said.

The captain informed the Maltese authorities...

For fishermen lke the fella in the story above that tuna is his lifeblood for the year. if he was detained, prevented from landing and caught up in legal proceedings long enough that he catch would not be viable, how would he and his crew feed their families?

The captain is not a paragon of virtue, but his decision is at least understandable. The stone cold truth is that if he had done the right thing, it would have brought him and his crew to economic ruin.
The Maltese authorities should have brought them in and deported them back - but they're probably not wanted back.

It's the people who give these poor souls false impressions about a rosy future in Europe and earn money by trafficking them who should be keeled.

[Ja'chyra]

The maritime captain broke the law. Pity he isn't swinging from a yardarm. All his catch should have been impounded and the profits go to Italy for doing the right thing.

Did he?

I thought at sea the Captains word was law barring things like murder etc. Is there a law that states that a captain must pick up anyone whose ship has foundered?

[JR-]

on these boards we often see quite a few posters who believe the capitalist form of civilization is a great benefit and there is nothing wrong with it - this story shows how wrong this is, as with any capitalist society a life has a price tag - the tuna were worth more than the immigrants and so the captain chose the right choice (by the capitalist view point) - any civilization that values a item (the fish in this case) less than a human life is in severe need of a shake up - currently no government would reimburse the loss's the captain would have taken if he had delivered the immigrants and so the fish are far more valuable...
the real failure here is that of the government rather than capitalism.

the captain was aware that there was precedent for detaining fishing boats for extended periods whilst investigations into illegal immigration went on.

he was sat on $1m in tuna, which may well have spoiled before he was able to market it.

his fishing boat is probably on a huge mortgage which he may lose due to being unable to make repayments after losing £1m in tuna (a months worth?).

having lost his boat, he may well end up bankrupt, then it will be his children that go without food.

the captain was wrong not to allow them on board, his government was equally bad for putting him in an invidious position whereby he may lose everything he owns for no good reason, if he does the right thing.

i have very little sympathy with the illegal immigrants however.