Mercenaries in Italy (in next patch)

[Helgi]

In this patch, there were no longer and Sammites, in the next patch, will there be Sammites and an adding of extraordinare pedites, hvy sammite infantry, and more of a selection of mercenaries?
:england: :france: :denmark:

[Squid]

They were removed probably to make room for other more important units. It is unlikely they will be added back in especially because these groups were no longer important at this stage in history IIRC.

[Imaldrian]

what about the extraordinarii forces of consular armies? most of the earlier heavy cavalry for SPQR were regional troops. and samnites were known too fight with the legions after annexation

[Helgi]

Yes "what about the extraordinarii", as Imaldrian comments on? Will they appear in the game?
:england: :france: :denmark:

[Squid]

There is no plan to add them for now, and I doubt they will every be added.

[Imaldrian]

i suppose you have enough units for the romans - with the legions taking up something like 70 slots

[christof139]

Hi folks,

The Extraordinarii were just varying percentages tken from the Allied troops that formed at least 1/2 of a early to mid Republican Army, whether a 2 Roman Legion and 2 Allied Legion Consular Army or a 1 Roman Legion and 1 Allied Legion Praefectular Army (Army commanded by a Praefect). Extraodinarii troops may have been returned to their units before a major battle, or remained as a Reserve under the Roman commander in chief and maybe even been used at times to provide more flank protection. Their use is diputable but on the march their place in a column is defined. Maybe at times Extraordinarii weren't used by a particular commander.

In early to mid (Punic Wars) Republican Rome there were Roman troops simialr to the Extraordinarri and they were called Celeres, or 'the Swift', and apparently may have consisted of both infantry and cavalry and acted as the bodyguard and mesengers for the Roman Cpnsul, Praefect, or other commander, but their use and equipment is also disputable and much remains unknown about them. They may have numbered 300 or so per army.

Units like the extraordinarii and Celeres (Celeri sp??) for game purposes can be interpreted as upgrade armor and weapon troops and/or Generals' bodyguard units, and any other unit you wish to consider as such a special unit.

Samnites fought in the wars against Jugurtha of Numidia and may have still fought in an Allied Legion rather than a Roman Legion proper, it is a matter of debate and a lack of available knowledge to be for sure, but they fought under Marius just before his reforms, or they may have already been incorporated into standard Roman Legions at this time, it is not known for sure.

What is known is that the Romans used the 1 Roman Legion accompanied by 1Allied Legion apparently up until or slightly after the Marian reforms, so that includes throughout the Punic Wars, the Macedonian Wars, the Wars with Epirus, etc. It also seems that the Roman Allies used larger units than the Republican Maniples and these units are referred to as cohorts, so it seems the Romans adapted the larger Cohort type of unit from other Italians, and the Romans also used the term Cohort before the Marian Reforms to denote a Unit of Administration) an organisational adminisrative unit for the purposes of pay and supply) in a Legion, and that Unit of Pay would consist of 1 Maniple each of Hastati, Principe, Triarii, and possibly their accompanying Velites. Scipio is the first known Roman to have probably used this Unit of Pay Cohort as a tactical unit in battle and this occurred in Spain duirng the 2nd PW.

So, maybe somethings or aspects can be overlooked in a game, but others maybe less so, and Italian Allies were prominent and formed at least 1/2 of Rome's field armies (not to mention garrison troops) in their own seperate units during the time of the early and mid Republic up to at least the time of the Marian Reforms.

The more Samnites and Italians the better!!! (but if they can't be fit in, oh well, just have to use romans and Greeks for them as stand-ins)

Chris

[Imaldrian]

yes but i think if you look at the factions list the romans aren't on their own and they already are a very heavy factions with a large unit roster ( the largest i have ever seen in total war - just try a custom battle and see for yourself when you choose an army ) to fully include extraordinarii would require alot of models - and i think the legion III are meant to represent the italic allies who fought alongside the roman armies - i think the gauls and other barbarians need to be expanded - i don't like the lack of any playable britanic faction - as they were one of the forces to ever defeat julius caesar when he first landed on british soil during storms - and the armies of the cassevellauni ( not sure if spelt correctly )
and giving the gallic tribes a province on the english isle makes no sense to me.

[Squid]

Firstly, the britons at this stage of history were never a huge force to be reconned with, Julius Caesar wasn't defeated but left because he couldn't stay over the winter (lack of supplies, and probably not wanting to be out of touch with Rome for 6 or more months).

As for the gallic tribe in englnd this is done so that the gauls have more staying power and can survive further into the game, this will likely be changed for RS2.

[christof139]

Actually there were some Belgae that had settled in eastern Britain, and they and some other British tribes actively supported the Belgae, and perhaps other Gallic tribes such as the Venetti and their freinds etc. on the Continent against Caesar, and to punish these tribes is perhaps the primary reason that Caesar originally invaded Britain. It's explained in Caesar's Commentaries.

Chris

[DVK901]

Once we're nearer the end of setting RS2 put together, I'll have a look at the Romans and the possibility of adding some Italian allies,etc. I doubt it will be a 'new' unit, but perhaps a unit using another model.

In effect, the Romans are configured pretty generically in RTW, and I have tried to get away from that...but it's hard given the model limitations.

[christof139]

If the Legion III are to be used as Italian Allies that is OK for the very Late Republic and even earlier. It's only in the early to mid Republic and early-mid late Republic that it is historically necessary to have the Allies represented as specific and different units, and that adds a great touch to a game. In the very Late Republic the Allies would have been most likely using nearly all standardized Roman euipment in most instances it would seem, so a generic type of model/unit for the Roman Allies is OK to suit me individually and I imagine would be OK to most people.

For Extraordinaire just tell the players to use their more experienced and armor and weapon upgraded troops, which is what actuially the Extraodinairie were.

Chris