Woohoo! Dismounted Knights!

[Dionysus9]

Hulegu reports that MTW has dismounted knights as a unit. It is unclear yet whether knights and their steeds are treated seperately in terms of being killed, but this would be a HUGE improvement over the simplicity of STW.

Its easy to kill a horse, try killing the knight.

This link is where the report is...scroll down, near the bottom.
http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/Forum7/HTML/000362.html

[Nelson]

I don't believe dismounted knights were ever in doubt. The question is: Can the same knight unit be used while dismounted in one battle and mounted in another? A choice to mount or dismount before battle would be best. Knights inevitably had horses. In fact, many English longbowmen did too though they did not fight from horseback.

[Khan7]

STW always had dismounted Knights. Let's see.. Yari SAMURAI.. SAMURAI archers.. No-Dachi SAMURAI... hmm..

So yeah I think Nelson is asking the right questions.

Matt

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[Sjakihata]

So sorry, but I do not believe that ND ever have been attacking from horse back.

[Hulegu]

Since the demo doesn't deal with the strat. map, all I can add is that they appear in couple of the battles, already on foot. 'Chivalric foot knights', they are called, rather nicely wearing the warhat style of helmet and carrying some kind of polearm - one of those naginata-like things. In the Battle of Jaffa the general's unit is of mounted 'royal knights', and if I remember rightly the foot knights present there are also 'royal knights', so it seems there are several different types of knight available. My guess is that foot knights will be trained separately - they'll presumably be cheaper, but slower, though just as well armoured.

[Hulegu]

My memory was at fault - the foot knights at the Battle of Jaffa are not 'royal', but 'feudal foot knights', sorry

[Dionysus9]

Well, then poo-ey. I was hoping for a realistc portrayal of mounted combat, with some of my knights getting knocked off of their steeds, but still fighting.

The whole idea of the superiority of spears against cavalry is that 1) the spear can be planted against a cavalry charge, and the horse impales itself on the spear with all of its momentum, 2) spears (and esp. polearms with "hooks" like halbereds) are long enough that they can be used to dismount a mounted foe.

In both of these cases the dismounted knight would still be kicking (unless he breaks a leg in the fall). I dont think you can take it for granted that killing the horse, or knocking the knight off of the horse, is going to guarantee victory. Chances are these knights are well trained in mounted as well as dismounted combat.

So what I would like to see (and am still hopeful) is a combat system where some of the knights in a unit lose their horses, but continue fighting on foot. This could be handled in several ways:

1) As soon as they are dismounted they lose their status as cavalry, and are actually considered part of a new "dismounted knights" unit. The original cavalry unit (with all mounted knights) would shrink a bit, but could still be sent around the battlefield at a horses pace. The dismounted knights would have to form their own unit and walk.

2) Even thought dismounted, the knights would still be part of the original cavalry unit and either:
(A) The entire unit is slowed down because these losers have to walk;
(B) The cavalry portion of the unit still moves quickly, but the walkers lag way behind and would probably get picked off 1 by 1; or
(C) the dismounted knights can mount up w/ a buddy (2 men per horse). This will obviously slow down the unit and tire the horses really fast, not to mention combat penalties, but would be an option--especially if you need to disengage and get the hell out of a bad situation.

I'm afriad however, that we will just see a single sprite for each cavalryman, and when his horse croaks, he dies too.

Oh well, still worth hoping for...maybe in Civil War TW.

[Mithrandir]

B

[Hirosito]

C

[Hulegu]

Don't get too upset, Dionysus9, we're each going to have our pet desires which may never be fulfilled in a computer game, and I'm sure MTW will have much to offer you aside from this issue. Quite fair that you should raise the issue, but at least MTW goes part of the way by acknowledging the possibility of horsemen fighting on foot. My own longing is to see a really convincing-looking cataphract in a game, and after playing the MTW demo I doubt I will be satisfied. Meanwhile, if you can stomach something as old-fashioned as an isometric RTS, there is a game - 'Three Kingdoms: Fate of the Dragon' (and its sequel 'Dragon Throne') - which treats horses and men separately: you make a cavalryman by putting him on a horse, and if his horse is killed he fights as an infantryman again. It's not a bad RTS too, imho.
I have to add, also, that separating horses and men in MTW might be a complication for the strat. map, having to make two units - of unmounted men and mounted cavalry - out of one after a battle, plus, since horsemen can be killed (e.g. by archers) while their mounts survive, allowing for the presence of riderless horses. Moreover, in battle maybe it would just increase the demands on the hardware, so think of those people already in dismay that their systems will have trouble even running the demo. Placing more demands on hardware will just feed the current trend which sees PCs being out-of-date more or less before they are purchased, driven to obsolescence by the ever-rising demands of the software.
Civil War:TW though? No no no - first we must have Rome: TW, Alexander: TW, Heraclius: TW, Tamerlane: TW, plus one set in China (Mongol Invasion perhaps!?). Well, OK, that's just my own want-list....

[w00tage]

If you alredy have 16 units you cannot form another one.

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"A warriors death in battle should be bloody"

[Hirosito]

exactly so the only option is to keep them as one unit.

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Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.