Sweboz Wedges

[DavidSmith]

According to Tacitus, Ceasar and other ancient historians, the Sweboz (and other Germanic tribes), fought in what is loosely translated as 'boars-head' or wedges. Should the Sweboz infantry have that special formation capability?

Dave
http://www.miniwars.com

[Marcus Cornelius]

Unfortunately, I don't think it is possible to give the wedge formation to infantry. Even if it is possible, wedge doesn't do much.

[blitzkrieg80]

it allows honorable death- vanguard first :laugh4:

isolation is not helpful along a shieldwall, although forcing a hole in your enemy's does work occaisionally... sadly enough, the USA Civil War has similar battleline tactics

on a more serious note, the wedge formation was very much used by the Germanic tribes and should be accurately represented- but is it only for cavalry?

using the wedge formation with cavalry in RTW doesn't do much, so it's accurate to warfare ~;)

[QwertyMIDX]

I know we tried this a long time ago. We couldn't get it to work then and I don't think anything has changed since.

[russia almighty]

I don't think I've ever figured out how to use the wedge .

[kalkwerk]

I don't think I've ever figured out how to use the wedge .

The wedge formation is only good for one thing. If you want you cavalry to move in between two enemy units without actually attacking them, so that you later can make a charge in their back. For the charge itself a normal formation is always better in my experience.

[Kralizec]

I suppose you could edit the "horde" formation to look like a triangle, but I don't think it would actually do anything.

Cavalry wedge is pretty useless - the wedge of a full strength cavalry unit is longer then infantry formations are deep :inquisitive:


The wedge formation is only good for one thing. If you want you cavalry to move in between two enemy units without actually attacking them, so that you later can make a charge in their back. For the charge itself a normal formation is always better in my experience.

I just form them into a collumn in such cases.

[QwertyMIDX]

I suppose you could edit the "horde" formation to look like a triangle, but I don't think it would actually do anything.

Yeah, and I've been told that units route using the horde formation too, so everyone would start routing in a triangle.

[Shigawire]

Vikings did this too, they called it "Svinefylking" - I'll check A Handbook of Germanic Etymology and see if I find something similar.

[BigTex]

I suppose you could edit the "horde" formation to look like a triangle, but I don't think it would actually do anything.

Cavalry wedge is pretty useless - the wedge of a full strength cavalry unit is longer then infantry formations are deep :inquisitive:



I just form them into a collumn in such cases.

If you edited the formation to be as compact as possible and maybe boost their mass you might get something. Might look a little similar, but the result would look more like roman wedges.

I've found using the testudo often allows you to force a gap in an enemy line, and results in few casualties.

[Rhipsaspis]

From what I've read (not a whole lot on the germans so don't take my word as law), it would seem that the "Boar's Head" wasn't intended as a wedge shape, it started off as a square but as it approached enemy lines for the charge the senior warriors along with the chief would rush forward first (the chief being front and centre with his retinue either side) with the less experienced men on the flanks having a tendency to hang back, thus producing the "wedge" shape that the ancient historians attest to. I'm sure one of the team can fill us in :book:

[The_Mark]

Yeah, and I've been told that units route using the horde formation too, so everyone would start routing in a triangle.
Exactly. Also, the wedges would always point to North.

[Danest]

The wedge never seemed to grant bonuses. If it did grant some advantage in rl, then it's a shame (among so many other things) that it doesn't work in the game. Maybe a hefty mass bonus would work?

[bovi]

The advantage would be to bear down on the few poor souls standing there to hopefully push through the enemy line with irresistible mass. Pushing through a forest of pikes or spears doesn't look like a very lucrative prospect for a horse though, I don't know how they'd train them to ignore that.

Getting behind the line would seed confusion and panic, as it divides the enemy (and everyone hates to have enemies behind him). I assume infantry would rush to fill in the open space, completing the division.

Anyway, mass bonus probably won't work because in RTW the cavalry usually stops at first contact with the enemy, then saunters forward to fight. You're better off just going around since the AI doesn't seem to care much about keeping some troops in reserve to ward them off.

[blitzkrieg80]

most likely, the war-leader would never have stood first in line, that's an exageration of their relative position toward the front compared to more cowardly warfare of civilized peoples... The leader would have been close enough to keep morale up, but the Germanics were not stupid, if they were first in line then they'd most likely die long before the battle got much action and it would seriously hinder the entire side of the dead general- probability is a huge factor, which we well know today as it's used in all of science, and common sense can tell even a primitive person that much: the more exposure one has to javelines, arrows and enemy weapons- the higher chance you're not going to survive. In HBO's Rome, I remember a great quote, although I will probably butcher it: "even a pack of mangy dogs can bring down a lion" - Mark Anthony after Caesar's murder. Even the most awesome warrior is unable to block every attack, thus why shields were invented and why the shieldwall is as good as it gets (including legionary and phalanx tactics)- they're increasing their odds!

Indeed, Saxo Grammaticus describes the normal deployment whereby the foremost men formed a wedge at the front of the army, backed up by the youths armed with throwing spears, while behind them stood the older, more experienced warriors- in a position to give advice and encouragement to the others and to take in the tactical aspects of the fight. Amongst the veterans behind the youth would be the leader surrounded by his bodyguard.

Just like in Roman warfare, the poor and young warriors who have less value get to die first because partly they receive experience through survival and mostly because they are worth less than the veterans and probability gets to pick them off first so the veterans have a better chance- sure, it's not noble at all, but war is not a noble thing- it's about success.

Anyways, the vanguard would have formed much of the "point" of the wedge and they actually used a word for that which meant "point", "vanguard", "spear" too- ON oddr, OE ord, OHG ort, Alb ušt, Lith usnì-s, Sanskrit uz-dho- (all cognate)... Proto-Germanic uzdaz (thanks, Shiga! ~:) can't wait for that book, hehe)

It could be called a "spear-formation" more accurately for Germanic warfare... just FYI since RTW is too limited to portray it.

As Bovi explains, the wedge is good because isolation and flanking is invaluable, it causes the other side to panic because so many know about probability of exposure.

Interesting tidbit, Anthony tell's me that the Gallic Celtic name for the wedge formation is edac which similarly means "point" and the word for vanguard is Edac Argoann - "Noble Point".

[Bonny]

The wedge never seemed to grant bonuses. If it did grant some advantage in rl, then it's a shame (among so many other things) that it doesn't work in the game. Maybe a hefty mass bonus would work?

afaik the RTW cavalry wedge formation gives a charge Bonus against other cavalry units.

[Spoofa]

afaik the RTW cavalry wedge formation gives a charge Bonus against other cavalry units.

really?:idea2: new tactic to try out on the battlefield! *goes and tests it*