View Full Version : Animal Fight!
Zaknafien
05-31-2007, 13:05
Enough political blathering, I want your opinion on a debate of epic stature that has been plauging my office of intelligence weenies at work for nigh on two weeks now. That of, who would win in a fight between a fully grown adult male Silverback Gorilla and a fully grown adult male African Lion?
Both specimens are considered to be of prime size for their species, that is, about 450-500 lbs each. No need to bring up the absurdity of if they would fight or ever encounter one another in nature. This is a pitfight! (and for sake of arument lets say theyve been starved for a few days, and maybe prodded with some pointy sticks to get them riled up).
Who wins? Gorilla has the intelligence and reach advantage, but lion has the speed?
My thought is that the lion would attack from behind like they are wont to do, and while inflicting bleeding wounds on the gorilla, king kong would throw him off with one arm and break the lion's spine with blunt trauma.
http://www.silverback.com.au/images/Gorilla-web.jpg
Badass.
http://images.livescience.com/images/top10_deadly_african_lion2.jpg
Pussycat.
InsaneApache
05-31-2007, 13:29
What's a picture of my ex-wife doing here? :inquisitive: :laugh4:
Well if King Kong taught us anything it would be that a oversized gorilla can beat 3 T-rexes.
So I'm sure the gorilla could beat the lion.
Would be some fight tho.
Marshal Murat
05-31-2007, 13:42
Gorilla.
Gorillas have hands, which lend them to
throwing
strangling
punching
English assassin
05-31-2007, 14:07
who would win in a fight between a fully grown adult male Silverback Gorilla and a fully grown adult male African Lion
The giant squid pwns both of them :yes:
Marshal Murat
05-31-2007, 14:11
Until Captain Nemo gets a harpoon!
InsaneApache
05-31-2007, 14:12
The giant squid pwns both of them :yes:
In the ocean, true. However on dry land my 18 month old granddaughter could pwn the squid, whilst simultaneously eating a jam butty.
How about gorilla's versus a very stupid woman. Gents, meet Bokito. Bokito is cult.
http://www.depers.nl/UserFiles/Image/2007/200705/20070521/gorilla.ontsnapt.jpg
Bokito escaped and made quite a mess. Ok, but the fun is in the why. Despite numerous warnings, a very stupid woman still insisted she had a bond with Bokito, after all when she smiled he always smiled back :laugh4:
shame she survived, no Darwin award.
I don't know, I haven't really seen a gorilla fight so far.
Sure, he has hands, but does he know how to use them to kill?
And can they protect him if the lion just jumps onto him?
The lion however will have a hard time to get into the back of the gorilla, because a gorilla can turn faster than animals a lion usually hunts, he will probably have to come from the front.
If it was a tiger, I'd bet on the tiger, but male lions are not the best fighters I think, after all they let their women do most of the work.
If it was a tiger, I'd bet on the tiger, but male lions are not the best fighters I think, after all they let their women do most of the work.
A position they have to fight for, tigers are solitary creatures and a lion would probably tear of a stripe or two when taking on a tiger despite the tiger being bigger. If a male lion is alive, then he is good at what he does, which is kicking other lions derrieres. And these things are big.
Kralizec
05-31-2007, 22:14
I for one think the lion stands a chance.
I recall a documented story where two king tigers downed an Indian elephant. It was especially noteworthy because normally tigers are solitary hunters.
Also lions get laid more then gorrilas.
doc_bean
05-31-2007, 22:22
I'd say the lion, it's got bigger teeth.
Also I've heard a gorilla has a really small penis
InsaneApache
05-31-2007, 22:26
with a bone in it.. apparently
If the lion dares to attack, he'ld lose. If he doesn't attack, he'll lose too.
Evil_Maniac From Mars
06-01-2007, 01:19
I recall a documented story where two king tigers downed an Indian elephant. It was especially noteworthy because normally tigers are solitary hunters.
I shouldn't think tanks would have a hard time downing an Indian Elephant. ~;)
Zaknafien
06-01-2007, 01:22
you know the overwhelming majority always says the gorilla wins but the lion camp has some diehard adherents..
gorillas are not hunters. they only fight other gorillas, they aren't even preyed on. nobody wants to eat a gorilla, so they've little experience fighting other species.
lions are hunters, even if the lionesses usually do the hunting, they spend time alone, when they have to fend for themselves. lions get in non-hunting fights too, but not only with other lions, but scavengers and other threatened wildlife. and when a lion has a dark mane like in the picture, it means it hasn't lost a fight in a long while.
and if you're still not convinced, the lion and not the gorilla is the king of the jungle. :crown:
the lion would slaughter the gorilla, if it didnt decide to run away which is most cats response to things they dont like
would be a great spectacle like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogd-Uj-sJHo
Marshal Murat
06-01-2007, 03:04
You Mean This? (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mF7fMHYfQco)
Boyar Son
06-01-2007, 05:00
Gorrilla all the way
Hosakawa Tito
06-01-2007, 05:30
The lion would eat monkey boy's lunch.
Boyar Son
06-01-2007, 06:02
that lion wont stand a chance, that gorrilla will smash his skull.
KafirChobee
06-01-2007, 06:49
Cats be very fast. Gots 'em big claws. Gots 'em big teeths.
Lion wins, claws down.
Cats also know when to run away - so that leopard thing is bs.
BTW, nothing messes with a tiger ('cept maybe a croc). Though as I understand it - they prefer attacking from behind. Is why villagers in remote regions wear masks on the back of their heads - so a tiger will be confused and not attack.
ajaxfetish
06-01-2007, 08:10
If it was a tiger, I'd bet on the tiger, but male lions are not the best fighters I think, after all they let their women do most of the work.
I'm right there with you. Tigers pwn all. But since there are no tigers involved, I'm putting my money on the silverback.
Ajax
InsaneApache
06-01-2007, 09:06
This thread reminds me of that old conundrum; Why don't polar bears eat penguins?
Because they can't get the wrappers off.
Duke of Gloucester
06-01-2007, 09:12
gorillas are not hunters. they only fight other gorillas, they aren't even preyed on.
Suggests the lion knows it won't win.
Suggests the lion knows it won't win.
Hehe.
They both need to have a reason to fight. The lion needs to be desperate starved, the gorilla may need a familymember to protect. Running away is not an option (pity for you lion).
Anything is possible, a mouse could be responsible for me refusing to reboot. The lion could have a meal, but I really doubt.
The leopard example isn't the best: leopards avoid lions for a reason. If the lion could get a jump on the gorillas back and a bite like the leo had in that animation, then it would look pretty grim for the ape (larger teeth, more mass than leo).
Hunters go for easy preys, and even fail there at times. The gorilla is not an easy prey (healthy, very strong, heavy, compact, berserk).
Kralizec
06-01-2007, 09:59
that lion wont stand a chance, that gorrilla will smash his skull.
Male lion skulls are pretty durable, having to headbutt other males to get their share of booty makes it necessary. Why do you think they have manes?
Well, it's right that male lions fight about who rules the pack/herd/whateveritscalled, but they don't do it often I think, when it comes to their prey, even hyenas can scare them away and, well, so do buffalos (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1551331&postcount=633).
Concerning Tigers, they are the best cats for many reasons. They look spectacular, are NOT afraid of water, they even swim sometimes and well, Fragony himself posted this video of awesomeness here (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showpost.php?p=1520875&postcount=587), it's the first one.
And the Leopard vs Gorilla comparison is pretty biased and cheap, there was also a video in the video thread where a bear runs away from a housecat.~;)
I think it depends on the individuals and a bit of luck maybe. If the lion can manage to do what he usually does, cut off the oxygen supply of the gorilla somehow(biting into the throat or face), the gorilla may lose enough of his power to lose, if the gorilla can get a decent grip on the lion before he is hurt in a bad way, then he may be able to crush the lion somehow, but I don't think he can easily brake his bones as the leopard video shows, which looks a bit rediculous to me.
Watchman
06-01-2007, 13:19
I'd say the big problem the lion would have would just be the necessity of getting and keeping a hold of the throat or face (and gorillas don't have long snouts to clamp on to like the animals lions usually hunt either) - because the 'rilla sure as Hell isn't going to just sit tight and take it, but will do its damnedest to get the big cat off. And not only is their throat a little difficult to reach to begin with, they've got actual proper arms and lots of horsepower to manhandle the kitty with.
There's some pretty good reasons why carnivores tend to leave gorillas alone.
Granted, the 'rilla doesn't have the most brilliant offensive weaponry around, but it ought to be able to seriously bruise the lion if given sufficient incentive. While it does have a set of teeth that could pass for weapons in a pinch there's the problem that the about only place most animals could effectively bite a full-grown lion in - the throat/neck area - is in the males rather well protected by the thick mane. Conversely there's not really too much in a grown gorilla a lion could really hurt either - the big ape has quite enough fur and muscle that the about exact only place the teeth are going to work on (if even there) is the neck, which is uncooperatively short and deeply set between the shoulders and hardly going to be very easy to reach while its owner is trying to swat you off. And the claws are solely for getting a hold while the jaws do the job anyway, and aren't going to do anything more than very superficial damage.
Endgame, a solitary lion isn't going to risk it unless seriously desperate or mad. If the two now did fight to the death for some reason my money would be on the gorilla, due to its better ability to actually hurt the other side. Carnivores in general tend to have trouble with big animals that actually fight back, which is exactly why they normally avoid trying to take those down to begin with - little point in risking serious injury for such poor odds of success.
Gorillas have a very powerful bite. The lion has more to worry about than just beatings.
Also lions get laid more then gorrilas.
The little advantage the lion may have is wasted on something that won't win this fight.
Zaknafien
06-01-2007, 13:34
Right well naturally obviously they wouldnt fight or probably even encounter each other. But, let's imagine a deep-walled pitfight, perhaps a circle with a 10m radius. Both creatures have been kept hungry and angered by prodding or electric shock to get them sufficiently riled up.
Rodion Romanovich
06-01-2007, 13:38
Lions are far from endurant. I think the gorilla would win if it was a serious fight due to superior endurance etc. But most likely, they will both try to avoid battle since neither has anything to gain from it since they don't compete for the same resources to any greater extent.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wiJGJxm4bo
Watchman
06-01-2007, 14:29
That reminds me... (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mMCRru6JEo8)
Don Corleone
06-01-2007, 14:41
You have to begin by asking yourself how would such a fight occur.
The only way you could get the two to face off would be to put them in a small enclosed area (drop them into a pit or something). Any mobility and they both would find safer ground. The enclosed environment definitely favors the gorilla.Advantage: gorilla.
Now, the next question would be fighting style. The lion would try (unsucessfully) to get behind the gorilla. Yes, the lion is quick, but the gorilla is no sloth, it can be pretty quick itself. So the lion would be forced to make a frontal assault. Bad move. Unless the lion got really lucky and managed to latch onto the throat in it's first attack, the gorilla would immediately grapple it and start choking it. Advantage: gorilla.
In terms of sheer strength, I think the gorilla has got that lion beat, though lions are pretty strong themselves. Advantage: gorilla.
I'm sorry, I just can't imagine a scenario where the lion can win. It would require the element of surprise to beat the gorilla. Yes, the lion is capable of surprise in the wild, but the lion wouldn't fight the gorilla given any option. The only way they'd be forced to fight would preclude the element of surprise.
Ole Donkey Kong would whup Sylvetser's ass....
I think we can call this one for the gorilla, but much as at Zak's work, the lion backers ain't gonna be swayed. Wanna start another one, Zak?
Don Corleone
06-01-2007, 14:59
With Zak's permission, we have a 2nd bout on the card this evening, ladies and gentlemen.
Round 2:
In this corner, we have an adult male polar bear, fully healthy:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/polar-bear-62_4.jpg
and in this corner, an adult male Saltwater crocodile:
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/tharris00/crocodile.jpg
My money's on the crocodile. A few snaps of that tail and the bear won't be able to raise his paws, let alone take a swipe at the crocodile.
Zaknafien
06-01-2007, 15:02
hm, thats a good one, could be similar to this done by Animal Face-Off (Bear vs Alligator) in which the bear won. I think itd all be dependent on enviroment, but in our neutral pit-fight, I think the bear has the weight and strength advantage because the croc can't do his death roll on the ground.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mVIinTtxLDY
Gorilla vs Lion I'd say gorilla. He'd have a whole bunch of mates to help out, whereas the lion would just have a disinterested harem.
Polar Bear vs Croc depends. On whose turf are they fighting?
Don Corleone
06-01-2007, 15:07
Actually, the saltwater croc has a significant size advantage. Most adult male polar bears weigh between 600lbs and 1300lbs. They measure roughly up to 10 ft in length.
The saltwater crocodile weighs about 1700 lbs and is 16 feet in length. Besides, the crocodile is armoured. The bear would have to bludgeon the croc to death, not an easy feat with the croc whipping that tail at the bear's paws.
Watchman
06-01-2007, 15:09
The polar teddies are absurdly good swimmers, but I'm pretty sure aquatic combat isn't exactly their forte. Crocs conversely aren't exactly at their best on dry land, primarily waterborne pouncers as they now are.
If you want to have a proper lif und daas ströögel (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9OHK8iLewLg), I think you need to pick animals on equal footing as it were.
Zaknafien
06-01-2007, 15:10
ok, How about a polar bear versus a walrus?
Watchman
06-01-2007, 15:16
The bear may well lose that one. Walruses are so sodding huge, and so well padded with blubber, it's extremely difficult for the pollies to take an adult one down. And those tusks are dangerous. I recently watched a nature documentary where a desperate, starving polar bear tried to snatch a young one from the midst of a... whatchamacallit, pile resting on a beach. Endgame was that a few adult walruses shielding their cubs received minor wounds, and the bear later died of its injuries...
ShadeHonestus
06-01-2007, 15:35
In both cases the clear winner is Ron Paul.
The gorilla would be to blame for the lion attacking it as it has "silver" on its back, no dobut residue from his corporation mining in the lion's territory.
The polar bear would be held accountable for the crocodile attacking and killing it. Afterall, the polar bear is white. Instant Jesse Jackson endorsment.
:smash:
Marshal Murat
06-01-2007, 15:39
Polar Bear vs. Walrus (Gory) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob_oD1IsYbE)
Polar Bear vs. Walrus (Gory) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ob_oD1IsYbE)
Talk about bloodbath :dizzy2:
Kralizec
06-01-2007, 16:05
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7MuFDVEUro&mode=related&search=
Wow :dizzy2:
Grizzly's are pussies.
I'd say the big problem the lion would have would just be the necessity of getting and keeping a hold of the throat or face (and gorillas don't have long snouts to clamp on to like the animals lions usually hunt either)Fair enough. I imagine lions can improvise and mangle gorilla arms as well. I don't believe the lion will win without getting a few severe bruises and serious bite injuries.
There's some pretty good reasons why carnivores tend to leave gorillas alone.Mostly because they live in large groups of up to thirty gorillas, my friend. This highlights how gorillas will be handicapped in fight experience, as previously stated. Even in gorilla versus gorilla fights, most of those fights are mere ritualistic standing, chest-thumping, roaring, running around, beating the ground and tearing of plants. Gorilla fight experience is mostly against plants. hmmm.
Carnivores in general tend to have trouble with big animals that actually fight back, which is exactly why they normally avoid trying to take those down to begin with - little point in risking serious injury for such poor odds of success.Except lions, once they have acquired a taste of it, have been known to also down full grown elephants.
---
Someone mentioned gorillas choking lions. They don't know how to choke. If they did, then maybe there would be more gorilla deaths by strangulation instead of by beating!
---
I don't appreciate how the lion supporters are being treated in this thread. I'm not done debating Lion vs. Gorilla yet, and so I refuse to take a part in this new Polar Bear vs. Saltwater Crocodile debate. Suffice to say, I will be very pissed at any and all mentions of gorillas or references to gorillas beating lions. I might even start shouting in text!
Watchman
06-01-2007, 16:58
Fair enough. I imagine lions can improvise and mangle gorilla arms as well. I don't believe the lion will win without getting a few severe bruises and serious bite injuries.Mangle ? What with ? Gorilla arms are pretty much just thick muscle covered with hide and fur. The lion bites down on that, and all it's going to cause is superficial injuries - and it'll also be neatly fixing itself in place for the 'rilla to clobber with the other arm.
Plus animals don't think tactics. They work by instinct. And the leonine hardwired combat programming says "go for the throat" - it's not going to even try at the limbs unless those get in the way. A wolf for example might actually try to hamstring the big ape first, but that't not the way lions hunt.
Mostly because they live in large groups of up to thirty gorillas, my friend. This highlights how gorillas will be handicapped in fight experience, as previously stated. Even in gorilla versus gorilla fights, most of those fights are mere ritualistic standing, chest-thumping, roaring, running around, beating the ground and tearing of plants. Gorilla fight experience is mostly against plants. hmmm....and lion "fighting experience" consists mostly of running down herbivores trying to flee, in groups. They actually tend to get in trouble if some of the bigger grass-munchers with pointy things on their heads turn at the bay and the lion's mates don't arrive soon. And the way they fight each other is flatly incompatible with how one would have to fight a gorilla.
The point is, gorillas are simply too big and, thus, strong and dangerous for any predator in their native environment to even take a shot at - troop or no. They're also not terribly good at running away, which means when sorely pressed they're that much more likely to turn and fight.
And lions are conversely first and foremost pack hunters; the size of prey a lone one can realistically try to take down is far less impressive than what a proper pride can manage.
Except lions, once they have acquired a taste of it, have been known to also down full grown elephants.Well, yes - solitary ones, and they need the full weight of a pride to hold it down so they can suffocate it. AFAIK the likes of hippopotami and rhinoceros are Right Out.
Someone mentioned gorillas choking lions. They don't know how to choke. If they did, then maybe there would be more gorilla deaths by strangulation instead of by beating!I don't think the structure of a gorilla's hand would even allow for that kind of grip - nevermind now that neither other gorillas nor male lions have very accessible windpipes anyway.
Grizzly's are pussies.Most animals back down from opposition that just isn't going to yield and primises a fair bit of pain if you try to kill it. Mustelids seem to have made something of a common strategy out of that; the little psychos usually won't back down from any size of animal, with the end result that for example wolverines can scare off full-grown bears and small wolf packs and tiny little weasels are perfectly willing to bite you in the ankle if you mess with them.
Most carnivores just don't want to deal with that kind of berserker attitude.
I don't appreciate how the lion supporters are being treated in this thread. I'm not done debating Lion vs. Gorilla yet, and so I refuse to take a part in this new Polar Bear vs. Saltwater Crocodile debate. Suffice to say, I will be very pissed at any and all mentions of gorillas or references to gorillas beating lions. I might even start shouting in text!
You want the discussion to continue and at the same time you announce to get pissed when anyone says the G-word?
A helpless herbivore and a big mean pussycat:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y6NyQSHTVOU&mode=related&search=
Don Corleone
06-01-2007, 17:49
You want the discussion to continue and at the same time you announce to get pissed when anyone says the G-word?
I'm not certain, but I took Kuni's comments to be a satire on the way many threads, especially those of a political nature, tend to go in the Backroom.
Kralizec
06-01-2007, 17:51
Most animals back down from opposition that just isn't going to yield and primises a fair bit of pain if you try to kill it. Mustelids seem to have made something of a common strategy out of that; the little psychos usually won't back down from any size of animal, with the end result that for example wolverines can scare off full-grown bears and small wolf packs and tiny little weasels are perfectly willing to bite you in the ankle if you mess with them.
Most carnivores just don't want to deal with that kind of berserker attitude.
Of course, but that doesn't make that clip look any less silly.
Watchman
06-01-2007, 17:58
Is there anything involving swans ? I understand those are ornery enough in the defense of their nests to chase grown bears away too...
I'm not certain, but I took Kuni's comments to be a satire on the way many threads, especially those of a political nature, tend to go in the Backroom.
Backroom.
ShadeHonestus
06-01-2007, 18:31
Is Gorilla politically correct anyway? Those people who slept through only 90% of their biology courses believe they are to be called "thumb impaired slightly bent over humans". "Gorilla" is just "the man" trying to keep apes...apes.
Boyar Son
06-01-2007, 19:18
Male lion skulls are pretty durable, having to headbutt other males to get their share of booty makes it necessary. Why do you think they have manes?
Trust me, educated guesses say that the gorrilla will win. But I cant help but wonder about the fight...
Watchman
06-01-2007, 19:20
It's kinda given it could not be described as "elegant" by any stretch, anyway...
Zaknafien
06-01-2007, 20:44
well gorillas are 98% identical to human DNA, ya know.
That's a difficult one Don Corleone. I guess the polar will see the main danger in the big mouth and avoid that. I do not think that the salties tail will become a nasty problem for polar.
The bear has to be careful, very, but he may win. He has better stamina, agility and bodytemperature management.
ShadeHonestus
06-01-2007, 21:38
well gorillas are 98% identical to human DNA, ya know.
Thanks for making yourself its first example. Its a bit less than that as research continues to point out. Sequencing alone puts number at no higher than 95-96% (I subscribe to the 95) and thats for chimps. Chimps and humans share more DNA coding in relation to each other than do either to gorillas. Gorillas divergence estimated at around 4-6 million years before that of chimps and 10-13 million after old world monkeys. There are many researchers seeking the golden number and golden dates as far as similarity percentage and divergence dates go and many deploy different techniques and data. While numbers higher than 95% in regards to chimps will get a person published and possibly a full professorship, they don't do much to further a firm grasp aside from adding to the overall data pool, thus contributing to the law of large numbers.
How can a crocodila win against a polar bear on land? I think it can't. Crocodiles are dangerous predators if they can get their prey by surprise and drag it into the water, but they fall victim to quite a few other animals themselves, including big snakes. Now that saltwater croc may be a bit bigger, but that doesn't make it more agile or so, it should even make it's turn radius bigger, thus making it more vulnerable from the sides and behind.
Concerning cats, I can suggest a look at the wikipedia entry for Panthera (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panthera) and the sub entries for the cats, all four cats are great in their very own way(it says Jaguars specialise in biting through thick things like skulls and turtle armour :sweatdrop: ).
And I like pictures like this (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Jaguar_sitting.jpg).:2thumbsup:
Crocs bite and hold, drown, and try to roll of a few chuncks. That won't work with a bear that's probably heavier then a croc, and has a talent for floating because of it's fatlayers. Croc might just get a chunk of bearfat, and that would be it's last meal. I don't think there is an animal that can take on a polar bear at all, maybe hogzilla.
God, look at it, magnificant animals.
http://images.google.nl/url?q=http://maxysoft.com/screens/animals/polar-bear-big.jpg&usg=AFQjCNEijH1B7tn2FfzZshWMdTKTMfd-4w
Adrian II
06-02-2007, 14:51
No-brainer. Lions are hunters, gorilla's are vegetarian wusses.
I don't think there is an animal that can take on a polar bear at all.
In it's own habitat? Orca? Mites, parasites.
I agree though, there aren't many animals. Despite all that, they are on the Red List.
No-brainer. Lions are hunters, gorilla's are vegetarian wusses.
Crippled cows yes. Kong Fu no.
In it's own habitat? Orca? Mites, parasites.
I agree though, there aren't many animals. Despite all that, they are on the Red List.
The Orca is probably the ultimate predator, they even succesfully attack great whites. But they are the ultimate of the sea, but on land, what could take these polar bears on, they can run/swim/climb/smell/look, and they are good at all of it. Only way to stop them is how you would stop a cavalry charge, a big pike, that is how the indians hunt bears.
Proletariat
06-02-2007, 15:13
This guy says that some leopards actually prey on stray silver backs and young gorillas.
http://www.berggorilla.org/english/faq/dvers/fragen/feinde.html
I've always been a feline-fangirl so I'm gonna side with the Lion Camp, and the above paragraph linked is my irrefutable evidence.
http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/animal0037.gif
Edit: Another link, check out bullet 12
http://books.google.com/books?id=wSXgVKUYpvgC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=leopard+kills+adult+gorilla&source=web&ots=NVT8YWM8OJ&sig=Vutj4CwwrDr2kON5ZPGUi1JHyEA
The Orca is probably the ultimate predator, they even succesfully attack great whites. But they are the ultimate of the sea, but on land, what could take these polar bears on, they can run/swim/climb/smell/look, and they are good at all of it. Only way to stop them is how you would stop a cavalry charge, a big pike, that is how the indians hunt bears.
http://www.blueiceberg.com/nature/nature38.htm photo galleries/marine mammals/polar bears/ polar bear and dog
This thread also reminds me of the octopus vs. shark (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060906-octopus-video.html) video.
Don't know what we can learn from that, but it's still a cool video.
Rodion Romanovich
06-02-2007, 19:35
This guy says that some leopards actually prey on stray silver backs and young gorillas.
http://www.berggorilla.org/english/faq/dvers/fragen/feinde.html
I've always been a feline-fangirl so I'm gonna side with the Lion Camp, and the above paragraph linked is my irrefutable evidence.
http://www.thesmilies.com/smilies/animal0037.gif
Edit: Another link, check out bullet 12
http://books.google.com/books?id=wSXgVKUYpvgC&pg=PA60&lpg=PA60&dq=leopard+kills+adult+gorilla&source=web&ots=NVT8YWM8OJ&sig=Vutj4CwwrDr2kON5ZPGUi1JHyEA
I disagree! The lions may take a few isolated, old, sick gorillas, but a fresh, healthy gorilla would pwn the lion any day! Just look what the zebra could do to the lion in the video posted on the previous page! Lions are the most clumsy and devolved of all cats. If it had been tiger vs gorilla, it would been an entirely different matter, but I don't think the lion can do much. Heck I'd even give leopard vs gorilla greater odds for the leopard than I'd give the lion in lion vs gorilla! :smash:
Rodion Romanovich
06-02-2007, 19:39
but on land, what could take these polar bears on
THIS:
https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/images/avatars/staff/m/mod/Assassin68.gif
+
https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v298/horsesass/axe1.jpg
=
DEAD POLAR BEAR!!!! :smash:
=========
Actually, why do you think there aren't any polar bears south of the north pole, and few bears close to the equator? There must be some weakness in this ultimate predator... I'd say they're too slow to compete with African herbivores, and despite their impressive strength, weight and size, they're too tiny to compete with slightly slower animals such as elephants. That's why they must stick far to the north, where the animals are more energy conserving with thick furs, and are slow and not very manouverable.
Crazed Rabbit
06-02-2007, 20:33
Lion v Gorilla is a tough call, so I'll avoid it.
I have to go with the polar bear against the crocodile, though. Those bears are massive beasts - the linked video showed a bear dragging a bull walrus (after killing it). Think about the weight and mass involved for a bit.
Crazed Rabbit
Watchman
06-02-2007, 21:49
I can quarantee you that polar bear is not going to take on that bull walrus - or any grown adult one for that matter - head on unless it's desperate though. It's one thing to bushwhack one when it surfaces (the normal polar teddy tactic for hunting seals and their ilk), and entirely another to actually fight that ornery ton of blubber, tusk and muscle.
No-brainer. Lions are hunters, gorilla's are vegetarian wusses.Ever heard of Cape Buffaloes ? "Herbivore" and "harmless" are anything but synonymous...
Actually, why do you think there aren't any polar bears south of the north pole, and few bears close to the equator?Polar bears are the arctic offshoot of the regular "brown" bear encountered all across the subarctic zone (grizzlies, black bears etc. are local subspecies) - the reasons they're not encountered very south should be pretty obvious. Bears in general are chiefly animals of the northern forest regions and comparable climates, although there are (usually largely herbivorous) species dwelling in the jungles of southern and southeastern Asia. Probably South America too, not sure. Africa doesn't host them far as I know; probably too much geography unsuitable for bears (deserts and semi-steppe) in the way I'd imagine.
As the polar bear is the single biggest land animal, and sole large terrestrial carnivore, of its primary arctic haunts, it's obviously rather short of natural enemies and competitors (aside from its ilk of course). I understand they occasionally have scuffles with their southern cousins (and occasionally crossbreed - grizzly/polar hybrids aren't unknown) during the warm seasons which they spend on dry land, but as usual between large carnivores bear fights are primarily about intimidation and establishing who's bigger and meaner.
Lions are the most clumsy and devolved of all cats.Nonsense. Lions are the pretty much exact sole felines to hunt in packs; the "wolves" of big cats if you will. This cooperative approach lets them take down large (and larger) prey more reliably than a lone cat could manage, and better defend their kills from competitors (or steal the kills of others for that matter). A solid enough strategy. The other big hunting cats in the same regions, solitary as they are, naturally have to use different tactics and tend to primarily go after slightly different animals.
Only way to stop them is how you would stop a cavalry charge, a big pike, that is how the indians hunt bears.Nonsense. Stick enough spears and javelins in it, and down it goes like any other animal. Humans have been hunting bears since Stone Age with quite a bit of success if not quite without risk.
A big croc could incidentally probably kill one in water. Bears are primarily endurance swimmers, whereas crocs are specialists in killing large animals in water since zillion years back. The primary crocodile killing technique is really pretty simply - chomp down on the prey with that insane PSI ratio their jaws generate, hold tight, and keep the animal under water until it drowns (smaller animals can be killed faster by the usual tehcnique of waving them around until their spine gives). Then rip chunks off it and swallow. If one caught a good hold of a polar bear on a suitable body part, I sincerely doubt if there's very much the teddy could do about the matter.
On land the croc would probably be lunch, as there's not all that much keeping the bear off its (relatively) vulnerable neck. But then, crocs are adapted to hunt amphibiously and not on land anyway, and AFAIK try to bolt for water when feeling threatened.
This thread also reminds me of the octopus vs. shark (http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2006/09/060906-octopus-video.html) video.
Don't know what we can learn from that, but it's still a cool video.
I don't quite understand how the octopus manages to kill that shark eventually...
It can hold it down like none other but what about that decisive blow?
How does it kill it?
Watchman
06-03-2007, 00:18
By chewing vigorously ?
Or maybe just by holding it down?
Sharks need to move in order to stay floating, they lack an organ that keeps them floating at the same depth, IIRC they also move to breathe, they need a flow of water through their gills, the octopus may have even held them shut. Then the shark used up it's oxygen by fighting vigorously and that's the end of the story. Octopi are pretty intelligent, so if it did something intelligent to kill the shark, I wouldn't be surprised.
Or maybe just by holding it down?
Sharks need to move in order to stay floating, they lack an organ that keeps them floating at the same depth, IIRC they also move to breathe, they need a flow of water through their gills, the octopus may have even held them shut. Then the shark used up it's oxygen by fighting vigorously and that's the end of the story. Octopi are pretty intelligent, so if it did something intelligent to kill the shark, I wouldn't be surprised.
True. There may also be internal trauma, at one point it looked as if the shark was folded.
Octopi also have a powerful beak (hidden between head and arms) http://nationalzoo.si.edu/Support/AdoptSpecies/AnimalInfo/GiantOctopus/default.cfm
It's used to crack crabs, I guess it will also be a neat tool for brainsurgery (did't see traces in that movie).
The giant octopus is also venomous.
Dazzling Array of Defensive and Offensive Weapons
Suckers. The octopus uses its suckers to rip prey apart and anchor itself to a rocky surface. Sensors around each sucker allow the animal to reject anything that tastes or feels wrong.
Tentacles. The octopus has eight strong arms capable of pushing, pulling, and grasping prey tightly.
Beak. The giant octopus uses its powerful beak to crush crab shells.
Venom. Venom in its salivary glands contains a chemical that helps the octopus disable prey and break down its muscle tissue.
Ink. The octopus can disorient a pursuer by squirting a burst of purplish-black ink.
Appendage Regeneration. Should the animal lose a tentacle to a predator, it can grow a new limb.
Camouflage. The octopus can change the color and texture of its skin cells in less than one second to blend in with its surroundings. These cells in its skin called chromatophores are under muscular control, allowing different pigments to come into view as the cell walls are stretched or squeezed. One expert suggests that “Chameleons are just dead-boring compared to octopuses.”
Nonsense. Stick enough spears and javelins in it, and down it goes like any other animal.
Goes like this, bear comes, you scream, bear stands erect, pike on the ground, bear comes down, MUHA DEAD BEAR
Watchman
06-03-2007, 16:09
Not quite how bears were hunted around here, that.
Not quite how bears were hunted around here, that.
That what you call here is kinda short on navajos so that is a possibility.
I don't quite understand how the octopus manages to kill that shark eventually...
It can hold it down like none other but what about that decisive blow?
How does it kill it?
What I don't quite understand about that video is why the National Geographic couldn't employ a decent voice-over guy!
Rodion Romanovich
06-06-2007, 08:04
Nonsense. Lions are the pretty much exact sole felines to hunt in packs; the "wolves" of big cats if you will. This cooperative approach lets them take down large (and larger) prey more reliably than a lone cat could manage, and better defend their kills from competitors (or steal the kills of others for that matter). A solid enough strategy. The other big hunting cats in the same regions, solitary as they are, naturally have to use different tactics and tend to primarily go after slightly different animals.
They're slower than other cats, the males have to sleep for 20 hours every day and do nothing but fight each other. Their herd strategy is what saves them from extinction because otherwise they couldn't catch any herbivores at all because they're neither fast like other cats nor endurant like the African wild dogs. However, their herd structure has also completely ruined their long term survival chance as a species by promoting inbreeding by males murdering the children made by other males, which has led almost every lion herd today to be inbred, having conditions such as pathologically enlarged heart, which is one of the reasons why they have to sleep 20 hours per day. They do have one strength, though, and that is that they can steal prey from other cats who are better hunters.
Here's my candidate no. 1 for ultimate land predator (hunts the prey in packs, for hours, at speeds of up to 60 km/h):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/African_Wild_Dog
Here's my candidate no. 2 for ultimate land predator (dragon's DO exist):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon
Here's my candidate no. 3 for ultimate land predator (both sneaky, fast, and strong):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiger
Here's my candidate no. 4 for ultimate land predator (incredibly cool sneaker):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snow_leopard
Ultimate sea predator is of course (who can compete with it? it can hunt at sea, it can surf on the waves up on land and take prey on the shoreline, it can swim fast, it can hunt alone or in packs etc etc):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orca
Ultimate temperate climate predator (hunts in packs, the African wild dog of the north, the source of the werewolf myth):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wolf
The overall winner is however:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rifle
No it doesn't, only the patriarch(s) get to breed, and the male youngsters got to conquer a tribe of their own, no inbreeding And they don't flock together out of necesity, it's what makes them so effective, pure strategy baby.
African wild dogs huh,
Cats vs dogs. Story. In england dog races were pretty popular, so tommy thought 'cheeta's hmmmmmmmm even faster'. They tried it, and it was a great succes. Once. The second race the cheeta's didn't run, but parked theirselves and just waited for the hare to finish his lap.
Rodion Romanovich
06-06-2007, 14:12
Wiki (like me) has another opinion:
"In lions, prides are often followed by related males in bachelor groups. When the dominant male is killed or driven off by one of these bachelors, a father may be replaced with his son. There is no mechanism for preventing inbreeding or to ensure outcrossing. In the prides, most lionesses are related to one another. If there is more than one dominant male, the group of alpha males are usually related. Two lines then are being "line bred". Also, in some populations such as the Crater lions, it is known that a population bottleneck has occurred. Far greater genetic heterozygosity than what was expected was found.[5] In fact, predators are known for low genetic variance, along with most of the top portion of the tropic levels of an ecosystem.[6] Additionally, the alpha males of two neighboring prides can potentially be from the same litter; one brother may come to acquire leadership over another's pride, and subsequently mate with his 'nieces' or cousins. However, killing another male's cubs, upon the takeover, allows for the new selected gene complement of the incoming alpha male to prevail over the previous male. There are genetic assays being scheduled for lions to determine their genetic diversity. The preliminary studies show results inconsistent with the outcrossing paradigm based on individual environments of the studied groups.[7] There was an assumption that wild populations do not inbreed; this is not what is observed in the wild, and is illogical, stemming from cultural constraints against incest in humans affecting how we view animals."
And a few other partly or completely relevant sources:
http://www.springerlink.com/content/g092r3m342v4867q/
"But a new report in the Proceedings of the Royal Society series B (published online) on a naturally isolated population of lions paints a gloomier picture. Inbreeding and disease appear to have taken a major toll, reducing the population to well below the level that analysis of food resources suggest might be sustainable."
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6VRT-4D56PX0-5&_user=10&_coverDate=08%2F24%2F2004&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=4f053e30b3d85b019b5d5777831023d5
"While conservationists were busy worrying about rhinos, elephants and gorillas, something entirely unexpected happened - the African lion began to vanish from the wild in large numbers, even in protected areas. A population previously estimated at 100,000 in the early 1990's shrank to possibly as few as 16,000 [...] debilitating effects of inbreeding among surviving lions in the isolated pockets of habitat left to them"
http://www.shopthirteen.org/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=42260&storeId=10552&catalogId=10101&langId=-1
Thanks for these new insights LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix, you are of course 100% right. I learn something new each day, I love being around such well informed persons such as yourselve.
Just because I want to promote my favourite animal further, I present to you diving tigers (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/diving_tigers-1817/4)!
Don, if you look around youtube, you'll find a video of a tiger killing a croc on land. The reptile is just basically defenseless - the tiger can get around it and go for the neck. The croc is far too clumsy to cope. Polar bear vs saltie is the same thing scaled up. I think the bear would be figure out how to tackle it - it not being too different from potential contests vs large seals on land that the bear might encounter.
BTW, there is also a fun website on animal fights that talks about lions, bears etc. It reckons the one predator that can beat the polar bear on land is the grizzly: similar size, but a more powerfully built creature with a stronger head and 6 inch rather than 2 inch claws. It says grizzlys tend to see off polar bears when the latter stray south.
No idea who would win in a gorilla vs lion fight. A battle to the death between the two is just so far from what would happen in nature, who can say? I don't think it would be like a lion hunting the gorilla - if it were (e.g. an ambush or a pursuit), the gorilla would be in trouble. But I don't think we can assume the lion would straightforwardly go for the neck as if hunting a bull. I think it would be more like a fight for domiance than a hunt. There would be a lot of confused scratching and thumping before; maybe wrestling if it really had to be to the death (not sure how you could engineer that). My gut feeling is that the lion is would prevail, being better equipped and instinctively knowing how to kill, unless the gorilla was smart enough to figure out some killer tactics (strangulation, breaking a limb or spine etc).
Silverbacks are formiddable, but a male lion in his prime exudes a similar bad ass atttitude. I remember a huge one sauntering past my open topped safari vehicle, so close I could have stroked him (ok, if I had very long arms). He just did not give a damn about the safari vehicle or anyone. He seemed to be packed full of testosterone and nothing remotely like those unimpressive sleepy little things you see in zoos.
Don, if you look around youtube, you'll find a video of a tiger killing a croc on land.
yes like post 19 of this thread
Gawain of Orkeny
06-07-2007, 03:00
There's some pretty good reasons why carnivores tend to leave gorillas alone.
They leave healthy animals of any type alone for a reason. They cant risk getting hurt.
A lion will tear a gorilla up never mind a Tiger. Cats are the best killing machines on the planet today. Even your cat at home will give a big dog a good fight
Tiger vs Polar r Grizzly bear would be my match of the century
Well I found Grizzly vs Cougar. Damn that Grizzly is big and muscular.
Cougar vs Grizzly (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SnjU1GKuNdI)
Cats are the best killing machines on the planet today.
Oh yes. Check out this absolutily amazing tiger attack. It just appears, and then WHAM. Poor guy.
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/13877/26d008c7/index.html
If that guy lived he woulda need a new pair of underpants
HoooooWeeeeee - nice vid
Just because I want to promote my favourite animal further, I present to you diving tigers (http://english.pravda.ru/photo/report/diving_tigers-1817/4)!
If I was in a swimming pool and one of those would jump in I would scare myself to death.:fainting:
Well I found Grizzly vs Cougar. Damn that Grizzly is big and muscular.
Must eat peanuts mode.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-07-2007, 17:49
Now if a cougar can do that imagine what a tiger could do
The Cougar is a slender and agile cat. The length of adult males is around 2.4 m (8 ft) long nose to tail, with overall ranges between 1.5–2.75 meters (5–9 feet) nose to tail suggested for the species in general.[11][12] Males have an average weight of about 53–72 kilograms (115–160 pounds). In rare cases, some may reach over 120 kg (260 lb). Female average weight is between 34–48 kg (75–105 lb).[13] Cougars are smallest close to the equator, and increase in size as they approach the poles.[2]
Tigers are the heaviest cats found in the wild.[8] Although different subspecies of tiger have different characteristics, in general male tigers weigh between 200 and 320 kilograms (440 and 700 lb) and females between 120 and 181 kg (265 and 400 lb). On average, males are between 2.6 and 3.3 metres (8 ft 6 in to 10 ft 8 in) in total length, and females are from nose to tip of tail between 2.3 and 2.75 metres (7 ft 6 in and 9 ft) in length. Of the living subspecies, Sumatran tigers are the smallest, and Amur (or Siberian) tigers are the largest.
Male Bengal tigers range anywhere from 200 to 295 kg (440-650 lb) and females range between 120-180 kg (264-400 lb). Males in the wild usually weigh 205 to 227 kg (450-500 lb), while the average female will weigh about 140 kg (310 lb). However, the northern Indian and the Nepalese Bengal tigers are considerably bulkier than those found in other places, with recorded instances of shot males that weighed more than 300 kg (660 lb). One large male killed in Nepal in 1942 weighed 320 kg (706 lb), while another, killed in 1910 in India, weighed 317 kg (700 lb). The largest Bengal tiger ever shot was a male 3.3 m (11 ft) in total length and weighed close to 390 kg (857 lb); this giant was killed in 1967.
In the wild, tigers can leap as high as 5 m (16 ft) and as far as 9-10 m (30-33 ft), making them one of the highest-jumping mammals (just slightly behind cougars in jumping ability).
You wont even see it coming as the guy on that elephant found out. I just realised that means they can leap over a one story house. OMG.
On average, male Siberian Tigers weigh about 300 kilograms (660 lb) [1] and female Amurs weigh about 160 kilograms (350 lb). However, males can weigh as much as 350 kilograms (800 lb), the largest documented wild Siberian Tiger weighing 384 kg (845 lbs). At these sizes, the Siberian Tiger is the largest natural creature of the cat family, a title it may share with the most northern living Bengal tigers. This, however, is not as large as the liger, a panthera hybrid only found in captivity. The largest captive Siberian Tiger was 3.9 metres (13 ft) long and weighed over 423 kilograms (932 lb). Apart from its size, the Siberian Tiger is differentiated from other tiger subspecies by its paler fur and dark brown (rather than black) stripes. As well as colour their fur is thicker and longer to keep them warm in the freezing temperatures of their habitat. Siberian Tigers also have larger feet than most other sub-species to facilitate movement through snow.
Dutch_guy
06-07-2007, 18:08
Oh yes. Check out this absolutily amazing tiger attack. It just appears, and then WHAM. Poor guy.
http://www.dumpert.nl/mediabase/13877/26d008c7/index.html
Pretty amazing how he manages to fool even the elephants. That said, it's pretty amazing and brave for the tiger to attack the man on top of the giant elephant.
I do imagine a Liger vs a Gorilla or Polar Bear would be an intensive battle.
...:balloon2:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7GadUhRFyk&mode=related&search=
Gawain of Orkeny
06-07-2007, 18:23
That dude is nuts. They had a guy on the discovery channel do the samething. I thought it was going to jump him or at least swat him a few times.
Sasaki Kojiro
06-07-2007, 18:43
I saw a news story about an old man who got attacked by a leopard and killed it with his bare hands by ripping its tongue out.
Given that, the fact that gorillas traditionally fight eachother, and this:
http://img111.imageshack.us/img111/5386/gorillagorillagorillabaux7.jpg
I would have to say gorilla.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-07-2007, 18:46
Oh yeah Take that
http://img1.photographersdirect.com/img/13894/wm/pd419105.jpg
And lets not forget these
http://www.vituperation.com/journal/2006/July/2620.jpg
Tiger claws:
Claws are up to 5 inches in length. Forefeet have five claws, including a dew claw, while hind paws have four claws with the dew claw being absent.
Because dew claws are placed high on the limb they do not suffer wear from contact with the ground. This means they become particularly long and sharp, very useful for holding prey.
Rodion Romanovich
06-07-2007, 18:54
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7GadUhRFyk&mode=related&search=
Great video! Awesome! Especially the last sequence when
the lion attacked him and he did a boxing move in the air at the last moment to scare it back
Gawain of Orkeny
06-07-2007, 19:00
the lion attacked him and he did a boxing move in the air at the last moment to scare it back
If it attacked him he would be dead LOL . It made a threatening jesture at him so he made one back.
Kralizec
06-07-2007, 19:38
More tiger pwnage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbbVxkMRqXA
:balloon2:
Rodion Romanovich
06-07-2007, 20:02
If it attacked him he would be dead LOL . It made a threatening jesture at him so he made one back.
Well he said himself at the end of the video that if he hadn't distracted it it would have continued the attack all the way. The last move was definitely more serious than the earlier ones.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-07-2007, 21:01
Well he said himself at the end of the video that if he hadn't distracted it it would have continued the attack all the way. The last move was definitely more serious than the earlier ones.
No he didnt. And yes the last move the cat was thinking of giving him a little swat. Of course as he said it could take his head off. These lions act exactly the same as my pet cat. You need to understand their body language and habits. The lion was exploring and testing the man. Again if he attacked we wouldnt be talking about this and neither would he.
More tiger pwnage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IbbVxkMRqXA
Man that has to stink. Ever smell a pet cat spray his territory PU
That dude is nuts. They had a guy on the discovery channel do the samething. I thought it was going to jump him or at least swat him a few times.
There's a show on Discovery indeed. He's known as Mad Mike and has an equally vivid side-kick (fond of African Wild Dogs). This is one of the most daring things I've seen him do, but approaching elephant bulls isn't a walk in the park either.
There may be the adrenaline kick and pushing the edges, but I also guess they add sensation to the movies to keep us normal people awake about wildlife. We've seen the Lion King and there's enough other entertainment these days, more interesting than seeing lions take down a zebra.
There isn't only the size of the jaw, but also the muscles to shut it down. Pussycat jaws are made to bite soft meat, gorillas bite off bamboo. Seems a tough coconut is no problem at all for them. Mind you, they won't make holes in it, they will completely crush it.
Harmless herbivores vs meateating lions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRwTQcCH9UE&mode=related&search=
The lions had cubs, so a very good reason to fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBemhIGnyyE&mode=related&search=
Why do you run lion? They are only grasseaters, not the top of the foodchain.
Hunting and striking from ambush (selecting the already weak, sick and cripple), yes they may win that.
Rodion Romanovich
06-07-2007, 22:14
No he didnt. And yes the last move the cat was thinking of giving him a little swat. Of course as he said it could take his head off. These lions act exactly the same as my pet cat. You need to understand their body language and habits. The lion was exploring and testing the man. Again if he attacked we wouldnt be talking about this and neither would he.
I don't understand the difference. Someone about to cut your head off isn't an attack? Well, excuse my poor English, it's not my native language.
I saw a news story about an old man who got attacked by a leopard and killed it with his bare hands by ripping its tongue out.
Given that, the fact that gorillas traditionally fight eachother, ...
I would have to say gorilla.
Don't confuse leopards and lions/tigers. Leopards don't tend to kill many people - when they attack, it is like don't really know what they are doing and usually bug out realising they have made a mistake - having inflicted only a few scratches on their shaken victim. They are smaller than men and not used to tackling man-sized prey (they make short work of small kids, though).
Man is close to natural prey for tigers and when they attack they will tend to take you by surprise, going straight for the neck. I doubt your bare hands would avail you. They kill serious numbers of people in the wild (even with their depleted numbers) and seem to regularly pick off unlucky zookeepers around the world.
Lions have pretty much the same armaments as tigers, but are unlikely to see us a natural prey. If they do get a taste for man-eating, they are overpowering - although often it seems to be the older cats who turned to this, being unable to hunt more fleet footed natural prey.
I'm not sure how much any of this relates to contests with gorillas, as they are obviously much more formiddable prey than an unarmed man.
Kralizec
06-07-2007, 22:21
There isn't only the size of the jaw, but also the muscles to shut it down. Pussycat jaws are made to bite soft meat, gorillas bite off bamboo. Seems a tough coconut is no problem at all for them. Mind you, they won't make holes in it, they will completely crush it.
Harmless herbivores vs meateating lions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRwTQcCH9UE&mode=related&search=
The lions had cubs, so a very good reason to fight.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBemhIGnyyE&mode=related&search=
Why do you run lion? They are only grasseaters, not the top of the foodchain.
Hunting and striking from ambush (selecting the already weak, sick and cripple), yes they may win that.
Why do you hate felines :clown:
I just say they are overrated.
Kagemusha
06-07-2007, 22:47
I think that the Gorilla would snap the Lions back or neck.Hands are very good for that kind of stuff. Lets throw some more gasolin to the fire and pair us a new fighting pair! Polar Bear vs, Gorilla. I think that could be too much for poor ole cousin of us. Polar bear can use its hands also for fighting and i think that its heavier and stronger then the Gorilla.:smash:
Gawain of Orkeny
06-07-2007, 22:54
Harmless herbivores vs meateating lions:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRwTQ...elated&search=
The lions had cubs, so a very good reason to fight.
Only because they were vastly outnumbered.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eBemh...elated&search=
Why do you run lion? They are only grasseaters, not the top of the foodchain.
Hunting and striking from ambush (selecting the already weak, sick and cripple), yes they may win that.
I explained that earlier. Why do you think they hunt the young and sick? They cant take a chance of getting hurt or they die.
Ill tell you what you try taking on a leopard and try to pull its tongue out. You be a mess trying that with my pet cat. Or even trying to give him a bath. He weighs 20lbs and has real sharp teeth and claws :laugh4: Hes one big cat. And no he isnt fat either.
cat attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGwNE1RGvHE)
Cat Attacks Fox News Reporter LIVE! (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmUdnzswaJA)
Wild Cat Attack (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CZ159Gn4ENs)
Sasaki Kojiro
06-07-2007, 23:32
Don't confuse leopards and lions/tigers. Leopards don't tend to kill many people - when they attack, it is like don't really know what they are doing and usually bug out realising they have made a mistake - having inflicted only a few scratches on their shaken victim. They are smaller than men and not used to tackling man-sized prey (they make short work of small kids, though).
Man is close to natural prey for tigers and when they attack they will tend to take you by surprise, going straight for the neck. I doubt your bare hands would avail you. They kill serious numbers of people in the wild (even with their depleted numbers) and seem to regularly pick off unlucky zookeepers around the world.
Lions have pretty much the same armaments as tigers, but are unlikely to see us a natural prey. If they do get a taste for man-eating, they are overpowering - although often it seems to be the older cats who turned to this, being unable to hunt more fleet footed natural prey.
I'm not sure how much any of this relates to contests with gorillas, as they are obviously much more formiddable prey than an unarmed man.
Yeah, leopard < lion; human < gorilla.
I think bite damage would be about the same, then it becomes a matter of hands vs claws. Gorillas are more intelligent and can use the trees better. The hate water however. I still say gorilla.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-08-2007, 00:02
Yeah, leopard < lion; human < gorilla.
And just how many times do you think the human wins that encounter? Yeah I thought so. Thats why this was an amazing story. It would be the same if a gorilla killed a big male tiger. Some here seem to have watched King Kong a few too many times :laugh4:
Some good stuff from a site I found
The Bengal Tiger--By far the most impressive of the Big Cats, the Bengal tiger easily overwhelms other creatures close to its kin, moving easily into the BACMT after winning the Baddest Big Cat Cage Match Tournament (BBCCMT) running away. The lion is a pathetic pretender, massively outsized and outworked by the fearsome tiger. Leopards can climb trees, but they're simply too small. These beasts can get up to 12 feet long and 600 pounds. But their advantages are speed and stealth; they can approach in silence and then WHAM! Once the claws are in, it's going to be tough to get away. But can they deal with the sheer bulk of the elephant and the fierceness of the shark? No way. No freakin' way.
Mountain Gorilla--A sentimental favorite for many, and certainly the smartest of the contestants, the African mountain gorilla is a tough competitor. Incredibly strong, fast, and strategically smart, the mountain gorilla is a grappler at heart. Once his hands are on you, you're done for. The Tiger v. Gorilla matchup would be one for the ages, with strength and smarts battling strength and speed. My good friend Brad Thompson once commented that the Gorilla would surely win this Clash of the Titans, ostensibly by "tearing the face of the tiger in half." Powerful imagery. Thanks, Brad. Points against the Gorilla for its vegetarianism.
The World's Baddest Animal (http://blogs.salon.com/0001703/2002/12/07.html)
I explained that earlier. Why do you think they hunt the young and sick? They cant take a chance of getting hurt or they die.
Hello Gawain of Orkeny,
Yes. Such a target will be easier to get too. The easier, the less energy they have to invest. It's a bad idea to burn 1,000 calories in a hunt to win only 20 (that would be quite a light product, I know). They hunt for survival in those cases, not for fun.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-08-2007, 00:09
Unlike us who hunt for sport and take out the fit in many cases. No fun in hunting the young, the small and the sick for us.
By the way has it occured to any of you that the Elephant is the real king of beasts with maybe the Rhino coming in a clsoe 2nd? Big and bad as they are I cant see any cat taking on a full grown male african elephant or big Rhino. Or anything else messing with them either.
Let's not forget the hippo.
I heard that they cause more death then other animals.
Some here seem to have watched King Kong a few too many times :laugh4:
King Kong only eats airplanes, not tigers ~:)
The original bet was gorilla vs lion. Both male, both healthy, both having a reason to fight. No hunting or ambush scenarios, no scare or surprise factors.
A tiger is a slightly different case I think. I wouldn't declare him victor 10 out of 10, but a big tiger is nastier than a lion.
A chimp is much smaller than me, yet his arms are 50 times stronger than that of an adult male human (I guess the muscle fibre is more powerful per volume). I'm not small, yet I feel like a dwarf when comparing my volume with a gorilla. If he has the same tough fibres as a chimp (ough). And they are strong. Add to that their bite (that's underestimated), and the lion will need a lot of luck to deal with that. Lions hunting the weak do not score 100%, far from. This gorilla is not weak. So, how can we be so sure the lion will beat the gorilla?
Gawain of Orkeny
06-08-2007, 00:33
King Kong only eats airplanes, not tigers
Only after he is captured and brought here. Watch the movie again :laugh4:
The original bet was gorilla vs lion. Both male, both healthy, both having a reason to fight. No hunting or ambush scenarios, no scare or surprise factors.
I think all would have to agree that in such a scenario you could not pick a winner as it would depend on the individual animals fighting and a fair amount of luck. Id say the odds are even.
A tiger is a slightly different case I think. I wouldn't declare him victor 10 out of 10, but a big tiger is nastier than a lion.
Thats why I upped the anti. I wanted a clear winner.
Unlike us who hunt for sport and take out the fit in many cases. No fun in hunting the young, the small and the sick for us.
True. And what the lions do is good for nature (take out the sick to prevent epidemias, take out the weak so only the strong produce offspring).
By the way has it occured to any of you that the Elephant is the real king of beasts with maybe the Rhino coming in a clsoe 2nd? Big and bad as they are I cant see any cat taking on a full grown male african elephant or big Rhino. Or anything else messing with them either.
Very dangerous animals indeed. But what about the small ones like (fire)ants and killerbees? The elephant is out there in Africa, the other critters are after us (to put it boldly).
Only after he is captured and brought here. Watch the movie again :laugh4:
Don't tell others please, apart from some well known bits, I've never seen the movie.
I think all would have to agree that in such a scenario you could not pick a winner as it would depend on the individual animals fighting and a fair amount of luck. Id say the odds are even.
I agree, anything can happen. But if I had to make a choice: the gorilla.
Thats why I upped the anti. I wanted a clear winner.
More likely to win than a lion is not the same as a clear winner. :)
Gawain of Orkeny
06-08-2007, 01:01
Leopard vs Baboon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvp9cELWHhs)
Not what you expect.
But notice how easily even a young leopard can kill a baboon. Leopard vs chimp probably would be more like lion vs gorilla though. The one thing you seem to keep forgetting is that all cats are designed with primarily one thing in mind and that is to kill. Its their whole purpose for living. They do it for fun.
InsaneApache
06-08-2007, 11:38
Gorillas pah! Tigers phht!
These guys will pwn them all.
Don't click if of a nervous disposition! (http://www.camelspiders.net/)
Gawain of Orkeny
06-08-2007, 14:23
Not one on one they wont
Kralizec
06-08-2007, 14:46
The Bengal Tiger--By far the most impressive of the Big Cats, the Bengal tiger easily overwhelms other creatures close to its kin, moving easily into the BACMT after winning the Baddest Big Cat Cage Match Tournament (BBCCMT) running away. The lion is a pathetic pretender, massively outsized and outworked by the fearsome tiger. Leopards can climb trees, but they're simply too small. These beasts can get up to 12 feet long and 600 pounds. But their advantages are speed and stealth; they can approach in silence and then WHAM! Once the claws are in, it's going to be tough to get away. But can they deal with the sheer bulk of the elephant and the fierceness of the shark? No way. No freakin' way.
Actually the largest and most powerful tiger (and by extension, of all cats) is the Siberian tiger. But they're almost extinct :sad:
Gawain of Orkeny
06-08-2007, 14:51
Actually the largest and most powerful tiger (and by extension, of all cats) is the Siberian tiger. But they're almost extinct
You must have missed my earlier post
On average, male Siberian Tigers weigh about 300 kilograms (660 lb) [1] and female Amurs weigh about 160 kilograms (350 lb). However, males can weigh as much as 350 kilograms (800 lb), the largest documented wild Siberian Tiger weighing 384 kg (845 lbs). At these sizes, the Siberian Tiger is the largest natural creature of the cat family, a title it may share with the most northern living Bengal tigers. This, however, is not as large as the liger, a panthera hybrid only found in captivity. The largest captive Siberian Tiger was 3.9 metres (13 ft) long and weighed over 423 kilograms (932 lb). Apart from its size, the Siberian Tiger is differentiated from other tiger subspecies by its paler fur and dark brown (rather than black) stripes. As well as colour their fur is thicker and longer to keep them warm in the freezing temperatures of their habitat. Siberian Tigers also have larger feet than most other sub-species to facilitate movement through snow.
Zaknafien
06-08-2007, 14:53
Our latest argument at work is about a T-Rex versus a Triceratops. In an even fight face on, I say Triceratops wins hands down. The T-Rex is slow, unbalanced, has an unprehensile tail, and can't see. Plus his belly is vulnerable to goring and any good knock might throw him off balance.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-08-2007, 15:02
Well I would say that Triceratops were designed or shall we say evolved to protect itself from predators such as T-Rex . However seeing as Triceratops was a staple dies of T-Rex i dont see how there can be any question as to who usually won. But just like most other examples here it would probably come down to the specific individuals picked to fight and luck. You would have to call it a draw. Again T-Rex like most predators didnt attack mature healthy animals unless it was desperate.
Kralizec
06-08-2007, 15:16
If the T-rex would attack on, I imagine the triceratops would easily disembowel him. Other than that...
Given that, the fact that gorillas traditionally fight eachother, and this:
[image of gorilla mouth]
I would have to say gorilla.
Well, that's not very wide open I'd say, he may get problems to bite the lion/tiger in certain areas.
Because dew claws are placed high on the limb they do not suffer wear from contact with the ground. This means they become particularly long and sharp, very useful for holding prey.
I thought all cats can retract their claws which is what enables them to sneak in the first place?
Do they not retract them normally?
Pussycat jaws are made to bite soft meat, gorillas bite off bamboo.
The jaguar has developed an exceptionally powerful bite, even relative to the other big cats. This allows it to pierce the shells of armoured reptiles and to employ an unusual killing method: it bites directly through the skull of prey between the ears to deliver a fatal blow to the brain.
And since cats kill their smaller prey by breaking the neck, I wouldn't say their bite is useless or so, at least they can open their mouth further and will have an easier time to bite at all.
One of the best and most flexible jaws is that of big anacondas and similar snakes, it's always amazing when they swallow a complete goat or an alligator. And their killing technique is very effective as well once they got their prey in the right position, don't know whether a gorilla is strong enough to get out of their grip.
Concerning the dinosaurs, I guess it also depends on the circumstances of the fight, if a T-Rex really was that badly balanced, then he was a really bad predator and I have heard the theory that they just ate dead flesh anyway because their body was not made for hunting, IIRC it was something about the position and strength of their bones etc.
And insects who get into my way usually die, I'm actually kind of a supporter of insect genocide as long as we leave enough for the birds and other predators and well, honey bees and a few others aren't really bad, but those small fleas and mosquitos are getting on my nerves.
Zaknafien
06-09-2007, 02:41
I think we've learned now that T-rex was in fact a scavenger, not a hunter. All those Jurassic Park movies are outdated fluff.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-09-2007, 02:41
I thought all cats can retract their claws which is what enables them to sneak in the first place?
Well think again. Cheetahs for instance i dont believe can retract them. Besides the point is well the point :) Their very long and sharp and if your kitty has ever cut you you can imagine what a tigers claw would do. It will disembowel you in a single stroke
Leopard vs Baboon (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nvp9cELWHhs)
Not what you expect.
The weak overpowering the strong.
Well, that's not very wide open I'd say, he may get problems to bite the lion/tiger in certain areas.
He doesn't seem to have the build to reach the spine using his yaws like cats try to do.
And since cats kill their smaller prey by breaking the neck, I wouldn't say their bite is useless or so, at least they can open their mouth further and will have an easier time to bite at all.
I don't want mine in either yaw. The bite of a gorilla (like this) is more powerful than that of an adult leopard.
One of the best and most flexible jaws is that of big anacondas and similar snakes, it's always amazing when they swallow a complete goat or an alligator.
Yes, it is. Yesterday I saw the prey coming back out again, so the snake could get away faster. A pity, as that duck was a years meal for him.
And their killing technique is very effective as well once they got their prey in the right position, don't know whether a gorilla is strong enough to get out of their grip.
Depends on the size. A 5 m anaconda weighs around 100 kg afaik. That's a lot of muscles. Their technique is also economic: they don't fight agains the force, they just contract a bit more when the victim exhales, reducing the longvolume of the victim bit by bit.
Rodion Romanovich
06-09-2007, 09:01
@Husar: hm, I thought a lot of the cats used thier jaws to suffocate the victims, not to break their necks. It requires far less jaw strength. For instance the tiger and lynx are supposed to suffocate the prey IIRC. Dunno about the other kittys.
Rodion Romanovich
06-09-2007, 09:21
Little monkey taunts tiger: https://youtube.com/watch?v=1AZn5nWIj_g
Longer version but edited and with lower image quality: https://youtube.com/watch?v=7czjUfncTjA&mode=related&search=
(hope it hasn't been posted before)
@Husar: hm, I thought a lot of the cats used thier jaws to suffocate the victims, not to break their necks. It requires far less jaw strength. For instance the tiger and lynx are supposed to suffocate the prey IIRC. Dunno about the other kittys.
Hello LegioXXXUlpiaVictrix,
Depends on the prey and the opportunities. They are interested in food, not in gaining points for some style competition. A lynx doesn't need to suffocate the mice/squirels he catches.
Squeezing the airduct is a way, drilling their large teeth into the spine of the victim, tackling the prey on the run (and thus it breaking its back), taking down the prey due to the shock of the impact of body or claws, a combination or even eating alive are other methods.
Despite this array, preys get away or are only taken down after quite some efforts.
Louis VI the Fat posted a buffalo vs lions vs crocs movie in another topic http://www.break.com/index/a-brawl-in-the-safari.html
The buffalo calf was still alive and walked away after all that happened. It would be lost in the end without this overwhelming help, just a bit surprising it could still walk away.
Apart from other ferocious live and death struggles between lion and prey that can last hours, people have survived serious lion attacks too. There was a parkguard who had to close a gate at the end of the day and biked alone in the dark. He heard lions closing in and they attacked him. He was badly wounded and the lions started eating. Suddenly another man with a gun showed up in a car and managed to rout the lions. It probably shouldn't be another minute, but the whole pack didn't instagib the man (National Geographic show?).
lol
A dangerous game with those cubs.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-09-2007, 13:57
Squeezing the airduct is a way, drilling their large teeth into the spine of the victim, tackling the prey on the run (and thus it breaking its back), taking down the prey due to the shock of the impact of body or claws, a combination or even eating alive are other methods.
Another favorite method is Disembowelment using the hind legs. Grab a cat by the throat somtime and see what it does. Them hind legs well tear you a new one.
Hello Gawain of Orkeny,
One of our cats did exactly that. One moment she was cute, a splitsecond later she rolled over, clenched the hand using arms and mouth and kicked using the hind. She chased a mastino because he was bugging the pet rabbid (rabbid was also her buddy). She walked to the dog like everything was cool, a swift strike and the dog routed.
Her brother was more a stoic. Both were hairpulling stubborn at times, great animals.
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