Wedge formation

[Martok]

How often do people here use wedge formation? I admit I'm not a big fan of it myself, as I find its increased attack power usually doesn't make up for its decreased defense ability. About the only time I use wedge formation is if I'm specifically charging heavy cavalry into the flanks/rear of lighter units, where I know my cavalry's losses will be minimal. And I almost *never* put light cavalry into wedge formation, regardless of the circumstances.

So what are your guys' thoughts?

[Noir]

Its very good for pulling off unit maneuvers nonetheless especially cavalry ones (horse archers as well), as units are more easy to pass around due to the reduced front.
Few appreciate this "hidden" charm of it apparently.

Somewhere i read that it works better for offense with infantry than cavalry and i think that its true, particularly for "naturally" offensive units such as lightly armored and fast two-handers and the like. This is even more true if they flank as they need even less defence - although the counterargument i guess is that the No. of men attacking the enemy units is less.

I've seen use of it in MP in between engaged units i think too, so that the two sides of the triangle hit two different enemy units engaged on the sides - a true wedge, that is!

All in all - its good that its there available to all.

Many Thanks

Noir

[Agent Miles]

I use the wedge a lot. In the Acre battle AAR I did, Saladin's unit can be seen using it. If you have one or more really strong units, you can use the wedge to rapidly smash your opponent's units one after the other. It doesn't give you better odds, so if your unit can't beat another unit, the wedge won't change that. However, if your unit can beat another unit, then you do cause more damage more quickly with a wedge, so that your target either routs or is destroyed in a hurry.

[Ironside]

The wedge was the general killer in 1.1 and I still think it work well (just harder to pull of). A downhill charge of wedged hevy cav can kill even kings instantly. Why it worked so well in v 1.1 was that the comp considered a sole cav regiment vs an army as a duel and sent his units 1 at a time, and often the general unit first or among the first.

I use it occationally for flank attacks, often switching to line after the initial charge. Most often used in bridge defenses (let the enemy establish a small bridge head then hit from 3 directions).

[The Unknown Guy]

I use it in a few contexts:

- When charging: Likely as not you´ll get a few units stuck in the melee & killed. And I WANT every single charging unit to deal as much charge bonus as it's possible. Right after the charge, I click on close formation and retreat (changing formation usually helps units to disengage). Also, as I stated in another thread, I've found that chained wedge charges can actually minimize your losses very keenly, althrough it would reçuire lots of micromanagement (I tried this tactic when putting down a big rebellion in Portugal,with the Almohads. They had a sergeant unit, several militias, and one xbows, I think. I had three desert archers -compound bow, pocket mod-, some Militia Sergeants, and three crown princes. Well, to be brief, the militias were elsewhere, and the sergeants were getting close to my bowmen. So I chain-charged the sergeants over and over, lossing only one horse by entanglement-.
This also applies to "rearguard charges". I want my worth of the charge bonus, so I use wedge, even if only for a bit

-Skirmish: simmilar. When I manage to slip a skirmish unit behind the enemy's front, I usually put wedge on the first charge, then close files afterwards.

-Charging swordsmen: At least in the initial charge, like above. I don't do this systematically, but if I´m profficient that I´m not going to suffer any sudden cavalry charge, and the enemy is favoring defensive units over ofense (say, I´m charging a bunch of sergeants), I like the first attack to deal damage, both physical and to the formation. I don't favor this one very much as more often than not the kill ratio is not worth it (better to keep your units intact longer, even if likewise it takes longer to destroy the enemy. You can always flank)

-"Suicide Sçuads": AKA: launching hordes of urban militia upon unsuspecting enemies. Since they will rout anyway, I want them to kill as many units as possible before fleeing. I used this extensively in my dead HRE campaign. These I leave in wedge, as they are "fire and forget".
Likewise, I don't favor it because trashtroops routing can affect the morale of your better troops (Like men at arms). I once tried to use a first wave full of trashtroops to deal starting damage, and then get the second wave into the battle without suffering from the morale penalty of all the units routing. Althrough I won the battle, in general it was a failure. The first wave did not deal enough damage, and my general (heir) eventually routed by Benny Hill syndrome. The day was saved by my feudal Men at Arms (6) which providentially appeared in a forest, and dealt catastrophic damage to the enemy divisions (which, by chasing my trashtroops, had broken formation and were in a "mooping up" mood). So it was useful, after a fashion.
Maybe it can be used when attacking strong defensive positions, to lure them out of there by a "real" "fake" rout.


Most often used in bridge defenses (let the enemy establish a small bridge head then hit from 3 directions).
What for? bridge battles are usually better in damage ratio by barring the bridge with some spear units, and then missileing the hell out of whatever comes on (arrows are good. Crossbows are better. Javelins and naphta are the best -and javelins can usually act as position holders-. If you can actually put in some organ guns, the day is won no matter what comes.)

[caravel]

I pretty much only use it for throw away units such as Ghazi Infantry. They can be launched from ambush in wedge formation and deal some horrific damage. I will never use it for a faction leader's, heir's or general's unit or for a unit containing a valuable unit leader as it places him at the point of the formation where he is often the first to die. I must admit that I do also use it for maneouvring horse archers, and sometimes other units, out of tight spots.

[Roark]

I use wedge with lance/spear cavalry and fast or high attack+charge infantry against thinly deployed enemy units.

If you can split the formation, the unit will rout a lot quicker.

[Ironside]

What for? bridge battles are usually better in damage ratio by barring the bridge with some spear units, and then missileing the hell out of whatever comes on (arrows are good. Crossbows are better. Javelins and naphta are the best -and javelins can usually act as position holders-. If you can actually put in some organ guns, the day is won no matter what comes.)

That's during the initial phase. You know to smash the first 2-3 units that comes over. As I can't withdraw all three units, one unit remains as a plug (usually a spearman), letting the ranged units do thier job on the bridge.

It's merely a further development of what you mentioned. Can also be a napha unit on one flank if I got one.

[Lord Cazaric]

and three crown princes.

How is that physically possible? The Crown Prince is the first heir to the throne...there can only be one. The rest are merely princes.

[Peasant Phill]

A wedge is good for three things:

- Thight manoevering
- Dealing out heavy damage at the first contact
- Messing up the enemies unit formation. In this regard is the wedge formation the ideal way to counter the rank bonus spearmen get.

[cosminus]

I had used wedge as a way to try to correct a bad V&V of some high star generals as "not so bold" or so on. Because the general is in the first position he have the chance to engage in battle and acquire "good" V&V, of course if he is not killed. To avoid this I'm trying to use factors that increase defense for the General a/m, like armor, (the general belong to) a unit with good defense, charging downhill, attack a junk unit (that marching toward my, but not routing), attack cav in the forest, etc.
I could not say that this is the correct way, mainly because in the heat of battle I skipped this step, and lost my patience to "teach" same general good V&V. I simply took another general to do offensive battles.

[macsen rufus]

I tend to use wedge mostly for manuoevring - especially horse archers that have gone and "skirmished" themselves into a tight spot and need to get out of harm's way. It's also handy for rear-charging a pinned unit. I also have used the three-way wedge for bridge defences where I've had more cavalry than heavy infantry. Cav aren't so good for plugging a bridge but a good three-way wedge when the enemy first set foot on my side can have them running away quite nicely ~D It's also good for charging shock troops through castle gates/breaches.

As for the general always being in the van, I don't believe this is the case. AFAIK it is the highest valour men in the van, and if the general is low valour, he'll be further back. Evidence for this being the position of the unit flag, often in wedge formation, this is in the rear ranks.

[Martok]

I had used wedge as a way to try to correct a bad V&V of some high star generals as "not so bold" or so on. Because the general is in the first position he have the chance to engage in battle and acquire "good" V&V, of course if he is not killed. To avoid this I'm trying to use factors that increase defense for the General a/m, like armor, (the general belong to) a unit with good defense, charging downhill, attack a junk unit (that marching toward my, but not routing), attack cav in the forest, etc.
I could not say that this is the correct way, mainly because in the heat of battle I skipped this step, and lost my patience to "teach" same general good V&V. I simply took another general to do offensive battles.
I hate to be the one to tell you this, but that doesn't do a thing in improving the odds of your general getting traits like "Good Warrior", "Natural Leader", etc. Those traits are all randomly assigned, and aren't determined by your generals actions (unfortunately).

[Ironside]

I hate to be the one to tell you this, but that doesn't do a thing in improving the odds of your general getting traits like "Good Warrior", "Natural Leader", etc. Those traits are all randomly assigned, and aren't determined by your generals actions (unfortunately).

While "Good warrior" seems to be only rumoured about killing the enemy generals in personal combat, "Natural leader" and "Killer Instinct" does have a action determination.
"Killer Instinct" shows up after 40 (IIRC many kills anyway) personal kills (non-routers) in one battle and "Natural Leader" can show up after the general engaging the enemy first in several battles in row, or something close.

Seen my king go from Natural Leader to Fine Leader once using this method. Killer Instinct shows up a bit more often, mostly on auto-calc though.

[The Unknown Guy]

Are you sure? I've seen killer instinct as an inborn trait progress without joining a single battle, I think

[Deus ret.]

Ironside is correct. As you may have noticed, some heirs also have the "Natural Leader" trait when they come of age. That given a trait can be assigned on that occasion doesn't mean it doesn't have other triggers, too.

[The Unknown Guy]

I made a "test" after a fashion: I´ve gotten a viking general involved in every melee I´ve found. here are the results:
(Note that Lord Abrijorn is the general, hence I´m cutting the log at him)

Player Name:: The Vikings
-------------------------
Player Type:: HUMAN
Stance:: Defender
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 4
Total Troop Count:: 240
Total Men Killed:: 8
Total Men Captured:: 0
Total Men Routed:: 0
Total Enemy Killed:: 101
Total Enemy Captured:: 83
General's Rank:: 2


Unit Type: VikingLandsmenn
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Lord Arinbjorn
Kills This Battle: 79
Losses This Battle: 4
Inital Cost of Unit: 340
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 1 2 0 0 2 0 VICTORIOUS
Player Name:: The Vikings

-------------------------
Player Type:: HUMAN
Stance:: Defender
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 5
Total Troop Count:: 300
Total Men Killed:: 64
Total Men Captured:: 0
Total Men Routed:: 0
Total Enemy Killed:: 555
Total Enemy Captured:: 130
General's Rank:: 4


Unit Type: VikingLandsmenn
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Lord Arinbjorn
Kills This Battle: 151
Losses This Battle: 16
Inital Cost of Unit: 340
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 2 2 0 0 7 0 VICTORIOUS


Player Name:: The Vikings
-------------------------
Player Type:: HUMAN
Stance:: Defender
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 5
Total Troop Count:: 300
Total Men Killed:: 10
Total Men Captured:: 0
Total Men Routed:: 0
Total Enemy Killed:: 72
Total Enemy Captured:: 233
General's Rank:: 5


Unit Type: VikingLandsmenn
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Lord Arinbjorn
Kills This Battle: 86
Losses This Battle: 1
Inital Cost of Unit: 578
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 2 3 0 0 6 0 VICTORIOUS

Player Name:: The Vikings
-------------------------
Player Type:: HUMAN
Stance:: Attacker
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 5
Total Troop Count:: 300
Total Men Killed:: 26
Total Men Captured:: 0
Total Men Routed:: 0
Total Enemy Killed:: 243
Total Enemy Captured:: 77
General's Rank:: 3


Unit Type: VikingLandsmenn
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Lord Arinbjorn
Kills This Battle: 38
Losses This Battle: 2
Inital Cost of Unit: 578
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 3 3 0 0 6 0 VICTORIOUS

Player Name:: The Vikings
-------------------------
Player Type:: HUMAN
Stance:: Defender
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 6
Total Troop Count:: 360
Total Men Killed:: 190
Total Men Captured:: 0
Total Men Routed:: 0
Total Enemy Killed:: 1119
Total Enemy Captured:: 82
General's Rank:: 6


Unit Type: VikingLandsmenn
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Lord Arinbjorn
Kills This Battle: 196
Losses This Battle: 45
Inital Cost of Unit: 578
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 3 4 0 0 4 0 VICTORIOUS


Player Name:: The Vikings
-------------------------
Player Type:: HUMAN
Stance:: Defender
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 8
Total Troop Count:: 480
Total Men Killed:: 18
Total Men Captured:: 0
Total Men Routed:: 0
Total Enemy Killed:: 644
Total Enemy Captured:: 231
General's Rank:: 7


Unit Type: VikingLandsmenn
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Lord Arinbjorn
Kills This Battle: 167
Losses This Battle: 2
Inital Cost of Unit: 1307
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 4 4 0 1 13 0 VICTORIOUS

No killer instinct so far, althrough there's a good start for a jedi unit, which was one of my purposes when I decided to limit my unit usage to Viking Landsmen (other one was giving the CPU a chance: Landsmen are uber, but Huscarles are plain overkill). Granted, Lord Arinbjorn is still two kills ahead of the "40" milestone. Will brief you when mighty Lord Arinbjorn reaches it.

[The Unknown Guy]

Lord Aribjorn has surpassed by 8 the 40 personal kills threshold, slaughtering with his brave companions a huge Saxon army.

Still no killer instinct trait. However, all this killing has made Lord Aribjorn study the works of Epicurus, and had become an hedonist (In case anyone was still wondering about the randomness of the trait assignation system)


Player Name:: The Vikings
-------------------------
Player Type:: HUMAN
Stance:: Defender
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 9
Total Troop Count:: 540
Total Men Killed:: 297
Total Men Captured:: 5
Total Men Routed:: 6
Total Enemy Killed:: 1186
Total Enemy Captured:: 175
General's Rank:: 7


Unit Type: VikingLandsmenn
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Lord Arinbjorn
Kills This Battle: 227
Losses This Battle: 34
Inital Cost of Unit: 769
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 4 4 0 1 8 0 VICTORIOUS

[Ironside]

IIRC it needs to be personal kills in a single battle, not spread out and from what I understand kills, not captures. Makes it a utterly hard trait to get. Only seen it personally occur on suecide princes (that charge an army alone, due to breeding the royal line), and then only on auto-calc. I've heard that some has gone quite far into that line of traits though.

Utterly hard, but still possible.


Unit Type: VikingHuscarles
Is General: YES
Is Faction Leader: NO
Leader Name: Prince Harald
Kills This Battle: 1004
Losses This Battle: 45
Inital Cost of Unit: 12914
Soldier Pre-Battle Honour Post-Battle Honour Armour Weapon Kills Friendly Kills How Soldier Left Battle
1 GEN 4 5 3 3 54 0 DEFEATED


Player Name:: The Rebels
------------------------
Player Type:: CPU
Stance:: Defender
Florins Allocated:: 0
Florins Spent:: 0
Number of Units:: 26
Total Troop Count:: 1560
Total Men Killed:: 856
Total Men Captured:: 193
Total Men Routed:: 195
Total Enemy Killed:: 45

Time ran out... :no:

Sadly I don't remember if he got the trait or not. It was only to show that it is possible and simply because that was the most loopsided fight for a one unit army I've ever seen.

[edyzmedieval]

I never use it. Not useful enough. I never use it in Rome or Medieval 2 either.

[seireikhaan]

I use it occassionaly. Usually its to manuever my cavalry quicker when they need to move laterally and such. The other time is for the "berserker" units, such as highlanders, gallowglasses, etc.. when I need to use them to bust up a unit of spearen. Wedges can absolutely ruin the formation of a spear unit, giving your otherwise cheap, throw away unit a quality chance against a more expensive unit. I did a test run of highlanders vs. feudal seargeant. If I kept the highlanders in their original formation, it was disaster, as the spearmen were able to keep formation. However, in wedge, their odds improved considerably, winning 3 out of 5 battles. Still not totally reliable, but considering cost and tech, it was a big improvement using the wedge.

[Grey_Fox]

I use it occasionally. When swordsmen attack spearmen it works well as it disrupts the spear formation negating (or at least diminishing) the rank bonus. After the charge is over switch to engage at will. It also works well when two equal cavalry units are charging each other, just remember to switch back to engage at will.

[The Unknown Guy]

just remember to switch back to engage at will.
You mean "close formation", right?

When swordsmen attack spearmen it works well as it disrupts the spear formation negating (or at least diminishing) the rank bonus
Actually stated in the manual. Personally, I´ve not found the "disruption" to be significant enough when dealing with good spear units (sergeants, etc...).

[Martok]

Personally, I´ve not found the "disruption" to be significant enough when dealing with good spear units (sergeants, etc...).
It can be worthwhile, although you have to have the right unit. I forgot to mention in my original post that I do often use wedge formation with infantry that have a high attack-to-defense ratio, such as Ghazi Infantry and Gallowglasses. They still are the exception for me, however, rather than the rule.

[Caerfanan]

What does a wedge formation actually do? I used it several times, but it was so ineffective that I quickly abandonned. Most of all, one tends to loose his enemy leader quickly this way, doesn't it?

EDIT: Oh, maybe just for the initial charge?

[Agent Miles]

The short answer is that wedge gives your unit +3 to attack, but -3 to defense. If you play with Yas’ unit comparison tool, you’ll see that a combat where your unit will win after X number of hits, can be won with fewer hits if you attack in wedge formation, often with fewer losses to your unit. However, if your unit would normally lose the combat, then it will lose even quicker by being in wedge formation.
Often, people will charge in wedge and then immediately switch to close formation, so that they can save the “point man”. I believe that this isn’t worth it. I think that the point man should get an advantage from what’s called “push back”, knocking the enemy’s men back and “squeeze”, pushing too many defenders into too small of a space. Thus, I stay in wedge throughout.

[Grey_Fox]

just remember to switch back to engage at will.
You mean "close formation", right?

Yeah, that's the one.

[Martok]

EDIT: Oh, maybe just for the initial charge?
Because units in Wedge formation have both a higher attack value and a lower defense value, it's generally best to use Wedge in flanking maneuvers, as this will decrease your units' vulnerability. Attacking head-on in Wedge formation works as well, but you're going to lose a lot more men that if those same units are hitting the enemy on the sides and/or rear.

Also, Wedge formation seems to be a little more maneuverable than Close formation. In practical terms, this can help you get units out of tight spaces if some of them are being squeezed into an unfavorable position.

[Caerfanan]

The short answer is that wedge gives your unit +3 to attack, but -3 to defense. If you play with Yas’ unit comparison tool, you’ll see that a combat where your unit will win after X number of hits, can be won with fewer hits if you attack in wedge formation, often with fewer losses to your unit. However, if your unit would normally lose the combat, then it will lose even quicker by being in wedge formation.
Often, people will charge in wedge and then immediately switch to close formation, so that they can save the “point man”. I believe that this isn’t worth it. I think that the point man should get an advantage from what’s called “push back”, knocking the enemy’s men back and “squeeze”, pushing too many defenders into too small of a space. Thus, I stay in wedge throughout.
+3 attack and -3 defense. Wow. That's big difference.... I'll give it a go, to see what it does. Must be devastating with royal bodyguards charging int he rear a pinned unit...

Thank you! :bow:

[Caerfanan]

Also, Wedge formation seems to be a little more maneuverable than Close formation. In practical terms, this can help you get units out of tight spaces if some of them are being squeezed into an unfavorable position.
Uh, that's an interesting one. I happen to have had several times my mounted general stuck between two enemy units and hacked to pieces because I could'nt order his unit to run away. I'll try to switch formation to wedge then disengage...

Before charging again! :charge:

[Agent Miles]

Quite. Here's some shots of my Danish King pounding a huge viking unit into dog food. Charging down hill in wedge formation really helps.
https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/AgentMiles/Sweden/

[gunslinger]

Also, Wedge formation seems to be a little more maneuverable than Close formation. In practical terms, this can help you get units out of tight spaces if some of them are being squeezed into an unfavorable position.
I think it is way more maneuverable. Many people have mentioned using the wedge to save horse archers, and this has been my primary use of it. Horse archers spread into two ranks on close formation can get away from an enemy quickly if they turn 180 degrees and run straight to their rear. However, they take forever to wheel around to face any other direction. When you need to get away toward one of your flanks, just pop them into a wedge, double-click the destination, and watch the enemy get worn out trying to catch you.

I never realized how big the attack bonus is for a wedge. I'll have to play with that.

[Martok]

Hey gunslinger! Good to see you 'round these parts again. ~:wave:


I think it is way more maneuverable. Many people have mentioned using the wedge to save horse archers, and this has been my primary use of it. Horse archers spread into two ranks on close formation can get away from an enemy quickly if they turn 180 degrees and run straight to their rear. However, they take forever to wheel around to face any other direction. When you need to get away toward one of your flanks, just pop them into a wedge, double-click the destination, and watch the enemy get worn out trying to catch you.
Interesting. I guess I really will have to try using that more the next time my Jinnettes get stuck in a hard spot then. ~:)

[Caerfanan]

Quite. Here's some shots of my Danish King pounding a huge viking unit into dog food. Charging down hill in wedge formation really helps.
https://s132.photobucket.com/albums/q36/AgentMiles/Sweden/
Very interesting picture, Agent Miles. The morale flip ont he viks right after the flanking maneuver speaks for itself! :beam: