View Full Version : Psychadelic Total War
Orda Khan
06-16-2002, 17:04
Received a Fathers Day gift of PC Gamer magazine. It appears there are different versions of this magazine the CD-Rom and the DVD. I don't have a DVD player so you can guess which one I got!!!!!
Anyway forget my crap luck it seems my fears have been confirmed. What have they done to the graphics? All I've heard is how good they are. I had my doubts, then this. Is it only me who thinks they are less realistic? I really do not find these colour co-ordinated troops impressive and feel the move has spoilt the game. I mentioned in a previous post my concern that the units might take on an 'age of empires' look and they have. The battlefield now resembles a football match. Why have they gone down this road? Identifying your troops should be down to the unit banners and not same strip units, this is more true to real life. We could go one step further and start questioning the weapons and armour too. During this time weapons and armour were obtained from countries rich in metal deposits. It is also true to say then as now there was good and bad craftsmanship. People bought what they could afford and generally from the same place - much the same way as we trade arms today, so there would be no 'matching armour.' OK, I can accept that each sprite has to be the same as others for unit identity but why all these bright colours? I much prefer the understated little black sprites of STW. You can tell what they are close up, from a distance there's the banner. Even the red Nodachi units are dark by comparison. I still have my doubts and so far remain unimpressed, war is a grim and dour affair not a carnival procession. The game content looks good though.....Maybe it's just me, I like to see realistic units on realistic maps so no matter what other clever things are around, all these 'team strip' units will take the shine off it for me, but not nearly as much as not being able to campaign as Mongols.
Have I mentioned that?
....................Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
MagyarKhans Cham
06-16-2002, 17:11
we share your feelings, i remember there was a patch in stwe where the banners were much brighter, and this didnt looked good either.
me myself like teh more realistic colours as well, and after all we are commanding only 16 units and most of u command them in a big bunch so they dont need bright colours to find there units across the maps.
lets just hope that it wont be as bad as u described :o(
Celtiberos Shimazu
06-16-2002, 17:39
i am agree with you. I don´t like the armies like going to a carnival!
And there is some banners, with a colour very near to other. The Spanish and Mameluks, have a yellow colour very near... This can bring some confusion in middle of the battle
Krasturak
06-16-2002, 20:28
Maybe we can mod the sprites?
Orda Khan
06-17-2002, 03:44
Well I managed to get hold of the right mag and have tried the demo. It is not as bad as I feared, however I still think the sprites in STW are better. The new ones have a pipe cleaner look about them, they all appear 'stretched.'
The banners are a bit bright, it's a shame CA have chosen such gaudy colours - in the tuitorial I was fighting Byzantine units decked out in PURPLE AND ORANGE!!!!
The battle maps are gorgeous (only to be expected after STW.) I would strongly recommend turning the volume up during the siege. The noise of the battlements being smashed by trebuchets and catapults is great and so is the damage.
The highlight for me was the Battle of Jaffa. Here you get to see mounted archers in action, Mameluks, Alans and Khwarazmian cavalry. This appeared to be far better than STW. I will need to replay it to be sure so don't quote me but I'm sure the Mameluks were firing on the move as they swarmed back and forth in front of my spears.
Hmmmm makes me think.
If Mongols not playable then maybe Mameluks are a viable option, especially if they have Alan mercenaries as well. Their tactics were very Mongolian in the way they feined attack and retreat etc and weren't these the peoples displaced by Batu during the push west? In fact the armies he commanded were less than half Mongol probably much less. Couple this with the fact that Batu's brother Berkei formed an alliegance with the Mameluks they are probably the nearest thing. Until the 'Horde' appears that is.
It appears that there is a map editor, so we can still have fun creating custom maps.
I wonder how long it will be before we see custom armies in MP, armies consisting of the best units from each faction?
Anyway, still much anticipation, though I still think the use of such bright colours on most units will spoil the look of the battlefield.
Can you imagine a 4v4? It would resemble the toilet bowl after a nght on the town! Hehehe.
.........Orda
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
I have to add my agreement about the colours. It is simply unrealistic, which is a shame given that TW provides arguably the most realistic battles you can get on a PC. Developers, I think, tend to forget that historical games provide some players with the impetus to do a lot of reading or re-reading about the relevant periods, so they know what is right and what isn't, and are inevitably disappointed with any lack of realism.
Maybe there's time for adjustments before the full game is released?
The colours will be provided by alpha channels, and as long as we are allowed to see them editing them away would extremely easy.
I'm not too worried for now.
I would not like to see the game be too garish. Many day-glo colors would not be good.
Dune Daidoji
06-18-2002, 00:50
played the demo today , i had to where sun glasses . to garish for my taste , also not overly impressed with gameplay .
Well as least u got the DEMO http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
Im tryin to get together £4.99...so i can buy the mag..
Guess i'll have to wait till weekend now http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/frown.gif
I disagree, colours are nice and how would you find your troops quickly then? As far as I know colours were used to underline allegiance as there were no banners japaneese style.
Game rocks and the detail on the units means that men a not some dark mess on your screen anymore. The new detail depth is brilliant. Armies do not have a carnival look. As to the brightness of colours... gentelmen lets not go anal about this, it hardly is important and is editable, so if anyone has deep feelings about it - go ahead and change.
Just looking at units.... only several types have more that 40% dedicated to the faction colour, so that is not bad.
Colours are just fine
Celtiberos Shimazu
06-18-2002, 01:42
I stil thinking that they should down the saturation of the colours.
Only a notation: The colour of almohad flags was WHITE. And the colour of Castle and Leon kingdom, was RED AND WHITE.
Celtiberos Shimazu
06-18-2002, 01:53
This was the flag of Castilla in 1248.
http://www.geocities.com/militarflags/images/pendon_castilla.gif
Hirosito
06-18-2002, 23:21
hi johnmcd are you watching the footie cos we're not talking about politics anymore so you could come back without the hassle of anying americans http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif although after getting through to 1/4 finals....
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Hirosito Mori
Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.
I have seen only the pictures in the gallery at .com. Perhaps red and purple are bit too harsh but the rest is OK. What diturbs me more is that green has red and white shields, and that it seems that several factions have yellow flags. Could be confusing.
Orda Khan
06-19-2002, 04:42
Japanese style banners etc, maybe not but most armies carried a standard to depict their alliegance. I doubt very much if identity went much further, certainly not an army of matching dayglo tunics. I simply find the understated colours in Shogun more realistic. The units on the demo were jumping off the screen by comparison.
To identify my units in battle I would look for their standard.
Hehehe it could be a standard standard with a unit identifier
------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Krasturak
06-19-2002, 05:56
Gah!
Looks like a job for a talented modder.
Any volunteers?
Darkmoor_Dragon
06-19-2002, 06:53
Quote Originally posted by Orda Khan:
Received a Fathers Day gift of PC Gamer magazine. It appears there are different versions of this magazine the CD-Rom and the DVD. I don't have a DVD player so you can guess which one I got!!!!!
Anyway forget my crap luck it seems my fears have been confirmed. What have they done to the graphics? All I've heard is how good they are. I had my doubts, then this. Is it only me who thinks they are less realistic? I really do not find these colour co-ordinated troops impressive and feel the move has spoilt the game. I mentioned in a previous post my concern that the units might take on an 'age of empires' look and they have. The battlefield now resembles a football match. Why have they gone down this road? Identifying your troops should be down to the unit banners and not same strip units, this is more true to real life. We could go one step further and start questioning the weapons and armour too. During this time weapons and armour were obtained from countries rich in metal deposits. It is also true to say then as now there was good and bad craftsmanship. People bought what they could afford and generally from the same place - much the same way as we trade arms today, so there would be no 'matching armour.' OK, I can accept that each sprite has to be the same as others for unit identity but why all these bright colours? I much prefer the understated little black sprites of STW. You can tell what they are close up, from a distance there's the banner. Even the red Nodachi units are dark by comparison. I still have my doubts and so far remain unimpressed, war is a grim and dour affair not a carnival procession. The game content looks good though.....Maybe it's just me, I like to see realistic units on realistic maps so no matter what other clever things are around, all these 'team strip' units will take the shine off it for me, but not nearly as much as not being able to campaign as Mongols.
Have I mentioned that?
....................Orda
[/QUOTE]
I haven't played the demo but i have played the latest version of the game (as of last friday anyway) - and personally i dont have any sort of problem with the colours and banners etc.
The demo may be more lurid than the game or not - but from what i've seen it all looks good to me.
Bottom line is that it remains a game and not a simulation, the ability to easily identify your own troops is more important than historical accuracy approaching in this area and will, and should, always win out (in this department at least).
It would be a travesty to produce a superb game to have it blighted for the masses who could only say "Yeah its probably great but you can't tell whose troops are whose!"...
A bit silly really ;-)
Orda Khan
06-19-2002, 20:19
I repeat....Standards.
I have never had trouble identifying my army because they all carry my colours and this goes for big battles 4v4. They do not need a Manchester United strip so I can see them. Sorry for wanting a bit of realism, maybe we should have units of Disney characters - Goofy archers and Donald duck spearmen - after all it is just a game. Perhaps the factions of the game should have fictional names also and why not introduce machine guns and mortars being as historical accuracy is so unimportant. I hope it is just the demo because I for one have been less than impressed by it. Guess I'll have to wait and see.
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Darkmoor_Dragon
06-19-2002, 21:13
Well - machine guns and mortars aside dont you think you are taking this a bit too rabidly?
"Realism" is often used as a bat to beat games over the head with, but what does it really do to change the playability of the game in this instance?
As it stands the colours allow you to easily identify whose side troops are on.
Without them - with sundry dull brown ragged outfits what have you achieved in terms of gameplay?
Nothing has changed in the dynamics of the game at all - note that - nothing at all. All you have achieved is to make the distinguishing of individual units harder for the player.
Games companies seek to find a wide audience for their games - CA is attempting to reach a wider audience, not a narrower one defined by religious devotion to the most intimate of detail and having muddy units stagger around the battelfield riddled with the pox and syphillis....
of course we could also make the units only respond to their national languages for that extra "realism", although one wonders how many English are now able to speak Norman Court French and Anglo-saxon and Welsh?
"Fans" often forget that there is a wider audience, one which criticised units in SHogun for being too "samey", ones who indicated that it was often too hard to identify units in a big ruck.
It is easy to criticse the colours from a "realism" perspective but whilst I can show a good reason for utilising them you don't seem to be able to show a reason for not utilising them, other than a desire for the abstract concept of "realism".
"Realism" can be great - it can also be a route to creating a niche game that really is no longer a game but a purists simulation. The fact that the English wear red tunics and the french blue, hasn't affected my enjoyment of the game one iota. One wonders if it will really let it spoil yours.
Diolch yn fawr Orda Khan
PlasmaFlux
06-19-2002, 23:29
Small clarification on the unit colors....
THEY REALLY DID EXIST!
Yes, that's right. They were called tabards, and they and the shields that soldiers carried would be colored according to the colors of the lord the troops were serving under. Armies really did have "matching dayglo tunics", because unlike in the game, real generals and soldiers would often have a hard time determining who was who once a melee developed.
Imagine that you're looking at a giant melee at a very low angle viewpoint, perhaps from the top of the nearest hill. No one has any banners, flags on their backs, anything. You can't tell who is who, and the troops on the ground probably can't either. Colored tabards made the entire scheme much easier.
Catiline
06-19-2002, 23:38
tabards weren't dayglo, the dyes of the period simply weren't good enough, and were hugely expensive anyhow. There's nothing wrong with colour just that it'd be nice to have it a little more muted. The units that don't look too bad are actually the ones that could justifibably be more colourful, the Knights etc, I'd have liked to have seem more variation to the shields and such, surely it couldn't be to hard to code it to select one of say 10 shield designs and get some heraldic variation. But peasants shouldb't be marching around in scarlet security vests, it looks silly.
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Timeo hominem unius libri
Darkmoor_Dragon
06-19-2002, 23:52
Im getting the impression that the demo must be harsher than the build i played - i wouldn't call any of them "dayglo" - i wonder if the demo is using the "old graphics" and sprites and not the new higher detail stuff?
DragonIce84
06-20-2002, 01:23
Well, the demo's sprited don't look very detailed, at least in 1024x768 anyway. The previous post might be true. The said newer version may have better colouring and better sprites.
I don't mind the bright colours too much, I found the demo very fun to play through, except the horse archers on the last mission seemed to be a bit buggy, visually.
Darkmoor_Dragon
06-20-2002, 01:43
I suppose i should play the demo to compare but im not going to go buy PC Gamer mag for it.
Orda Khan
06-20-2002, 01:52
Hmmmm.........a fellow countryman
............Orda
------------------
" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
Papewaio
06-20-2002, 08:22
Pity it wasn't a switch (choose from 3 settings)
Standard DayGlo
UltraRealistic Pox'n'Syphillis (with stagering units and less well formed ranks)
UltraColourful Disney (can download your favourite companies icons so you too can play Nike vs Reebok)
Well maybe not so tongue in cheek settings but it would be nice if it was an option during loading the game when you do the full option you get additional unit selections to choose from like unit size b4 playinb and then the game just picks them when playing (a mix and match matrix... you choose and then it loads them into a current default folder so it doesn't slow the game down from that point).
Darkmoor_Dragon
06-20-2002, 08:25
LOL - I kinda like the idea of a game that has a "Pox'n'Syphillis" setting - it'd be unique if nothing else ;-)
Fast Death
06-20-2002, 08:48
As long as nothing "fell off".
Papewaio
06-20-2002, 10:24
Thats the leprosy option and it draws the attention of witch hunters http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif
----
A leper has sex with a prostitute in one of Catline's brothels.
The prostitute shouts out 'Oi your penis has fallen off'.
To which the leper replies 'Keep the tip'
Orda Khan
06-20-2002, 13:18
LOL
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" Send us your ambassadors and thus we shall judge whether you wish to be at peace with us or at war..if you make war on us the Everlasting God, who makes easy what was difficult and makes near what was far, knows that we know what our power is."
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