To much or too little.

[Lord Winter]

I'm surprised no one has posted anything about the actual immigration bill. Now it seems that bush has made something far from a compromise and has instead simply polarized the issue more. Democrats have called the plan to tough on immigrents while republicans have said the opposite. What do Orgah's think about the bill? Personly I think that it is a good first step. Like or not we will not be able to secure the boarders without a huge effort consuming billions of dollars nor will be able to deport every illegal in the country.

[Odin]

I'm surprised no one has posted anything about the actual immigration bill. Now it seems that bush has made something far from a compromise and has instead simply polarized the issue more. Democrats have called the plan to tough on immigrents while republicans have said the opposite. What do Orgah's think about the bill? Personly I think that it is a good first step. Like or not we will not be able to secure the boarders without a huge effort consuming billions of dollars nor will be able to deport every illegal in the country.

I think its ridiculous personally. A good first step? This is a first good step SECURE FENCE ACT OF 2006 (http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=109_cong_public_laws&docid=f:publ367.109) its a law on the books, but not funded. Its premature to go forward with Mr Bushes plan until this one is fully implemented.

this is a security issue first, and economic issue second, thats where i think the main devide lays.

[ShadeHonestus]

Anything that doesn't secure the border first and engage Mexico's own policies second is empty. I'm sure Bush wants to get something meaningful accomplished on the immigration issue, but this just isn't it. This is a band aid with a backdoor to failure.

[JAG]

Not enough, and any conservative or free marketeer who rails against immigration should really have a serious look at their coherence in positions. For that matter, any socialist or lefty who rails against immigration should look at their morals and solidarity.

Let everyone in, land is land is land, lets make everyone's lot better! :)

*purposely pompous and utopian*

[CountArach]

Not enough, and any conservative or free marketeer who rails against immigration should really have a serious look at their coherence in positions. For that matter, any socialist or lefty who rails against immigration should look at their morals and solidarity.

Let everyone in, land is land is land, lets make everyone's lot better! :)

*purposely pompous and utopian*
Here, here!

[Fragony]

Not here

[rory_20_uk]

The USA has decided on a language. Enforce it. NO schools speaking Spanish - Americans speak English. If you can't, you're not American.

Sorting out the border isn't going to happen unless there's a trade in territory to make the border far shorter - and then it'll still be a massive waste of effort.

The immigrant labour is a benefit, as long as everyone is clear where the rights of the immigrants start and where they stop.

~:smoking:

[Don Corleone]

I think the main reason nobody has commented on the Immigration Reform Bill is that since
1) It's longer than the bible
2) It's constantly shifting due to debated ammendments
3) There's aspects of it that will not be revealed until after it's passage:

nobody actually understands what it really is.

It 'appears' to be an attempt to allow for guest workers. It creates a new class of visas (class-Z). Currently resident illegals can apply for this visa. The government than has 24 hours to do a background check (no kidding). If they don't turn up anything, they have to issue it to them. Then the now-legal resident alien has work rights and the right to pass back and forth from Mexico at will. In order to embark on a path to citizenship (something few of them have thus far expressed interest in), they'll have to pay a $500 fine.

-There's no English language requirements. In fact, Clinton's executive order requiring government services in the language of the recipient (including Ibo, should a Nigerian request it, not just Spanish) will become law with passage of this bill.

-If the background check of immigrants applying for class-Z visas doesn't turn up something in 24 hours, the visa must be granted and no further background checks can be used. If the alien fails the background check (after the miracle he actually gets investegated in 24 hours) the material turned up in the check cannot be used by law enforcement. In other words, were he still at large, Al Zarqawi could apply for one of these and the INS would not be able to incarcerate or expel him on the basis of his application.

-The penalty for not fulfilling the terms of the class-Z visa once you have it? Instead of not being able to return for 3 years, you won't be able to return for 10. Except, we don't enforce border security for 3 years, how are we going to enforce it for 10?

In a sense, it ends illegal immigration and border control issues. Much the same way granting a blanket amnesty on drug trafficing would end the problems we have with illegal narcotics trafficing.

And McCain, pompous ass that he is, goes on screaming :furious3: at everyone that disagrees with him. I can't wait to see his meltdown during the debate tonight. He's already said Romney (and Tancredo for that matter) were liars and knew that the bill was the best hope for America (that boy really needs to get back on the Lithium).

[Don Corleone]

And frankly, I think La Raza and other pro-immigrant groups should be ashamed of themselves for endorsing it. It continues to create a semi-permanent underclass of indentured servitude. The people targeted by this bill cannot afford the $500/family member to apply for these class Z visas. They will not return to Mexico to 'go back to the end of the line'. They wind up as deprived of oversight and rights as they currently are. The only people that benefit from this bill are the employers that no longer face fines for exploiting people with no ability to defend themselves.

Again, everyone, get yourselves a nice big bowl of popcorn and your favorite tasty beverage. Turn on tonight's Republican debate and wait for the fireworks. Mark my words, McCain is going to cuss at least one of his opponents tonight, and he may have a coronary and/or cranial embolism, right there on stage.

[Odin]

And frankly, I think La Raza and other pro-immigrant groups should be ashamed of themselves for endorsing it. It continues to create a semi-permanent underclass of indentured servitude. The people targeted by this bill cannot afford the $500/family member to apply for these class Z visas. They will not return to Mexico to 'go back to the end of the line'. They wind up as deprived of oversight and rights as they currently are. The only people that benefit from this bill are the employers that no longer face fines for exploiting people with no ability to defend themselves.



Wow Don, is this a preamble for a speech at the dem national convention? :dizzy2:

I think amnesty in any form is a mistake, but I disagree strongly at your portrayl of immigrants as
underclass of indentured servitude. Most of them chose to come here, and lets not allow ourselves to wink nudge nudge at the fact they knew perfectly well the system in which they were using.

Yeah, ill stand shoulder to shoulder with you in pointing the finger at corporate america but the reasons we have the issues we do are mostly a result of the human condition in thier country of origin, not ours.

[drone]

I don't think he's saying illegals are currently indentured servants, but that this bill will turn the poorest into indentured servants as an unintended (or maybe not) consequence.

[Don Corleone]

Wow Don, is this a preamble for a speech at the dem national convention? :dizzy2:

I think amnesty in any form is a mistake, but I disagree strongly at your portrayl of immigrants as . Most of them chose to come here, and lets not allow ourselves to wink nudge nudge at the fact they knew perfectly well the system in which they were using.

Yeah, ill stand shoulder to shoulder with you in pointing the finger at corporate america but the reasons we have the issues we do are mostly a result of the human condition in thier country of origin, not ours.

Perhaps I should have been clear that I was projecting my own personal honesty and self-examination into La Raza's (and other suppposedly pro-immigrant groups) point of view. If you really care about making life better for anybody in Mexico that wants to come here, this bill is not the way to do it.

[Odin]

Perhaps I should have been clear that I was projecting my own personal honesty and self-examination into La Raza's (and other suppposedly pro-immigrant groups) point of view. If you really care about making life better for anybody in Mexico that wants to come here, this bill is not the way to do it.

Okay Don I think I misread you the first time, sorry mate. :beam:

I for one am tired of the immigrants being portrayed as victims.