In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction

[Zaknafien]

In Vermont, nascent secession movement gains traction

By John Curran, Associated Press Writer | June 3, 2007

MONTPELIER, Vt. --At Riverwalk Records, the all-vinyl record store just down the street from the state Capitol, the black "US Out of Vt.!" T-shirts are among the hottest sellers.

But to some people in Vermont, the idea is bigger than a $20 novelty. They want Vermont to secede from the United States -- peacefully, of course.


"The argument for secession is that the U.S. has become an empire that is essentially ungovernable -- it's too big, it's too corrupt and it no longer serves the needs of its citizens," said Rob Williams, editor of Vermont Commons, a quarterly newspaper dedicated to secession.

"Congress and the executive branch are being run by the multinationals. We have electoral fraud, rampant corporate corruption, a culture of militarism and war. If you care about democracy and self-governance and any kind of representative system, the only constitutional way to preserve what's left of the Republic is to peaceably take apart the empire."


"People would obviously relish coming to the Republic of Vermont, the Switzerland of North America," he said. "Christ, you couldn't keep them away."

But there are plenty of skeptics.

"It doesn't make economic sense, it doesn't make political sense, it doesn't make historical sense. Other than that, it's a good idea," said Paul Gillies, a lawyer and Vermont historian.

While neither the Vermont Constitution nor the U.S. Constitution forbids secession per se, few think it's viable.

http://www.boston.com/news/local/vermont/articles/2007/06/03/in_vermont_nascent_secession_movement_gains_traction/

[Slyspy]

People of Vermont rise up! We have nothing to lose but our dignity!

[Zaknafien]

heh, I found the Republic of Vermont's website

http://www.vermontrepublic.org/

[Odin]

Having been to Vermont more then a few times the people there are a unique breed. While this is cute on the surface I find it hard to take seriously on any level other then an attempt at a political statement on a national scale.

Good luck to them

[Zaknafien]

indeed. good luck, O patriots of Vermont.

[Marshal Murat]

Until that military-industrial complex gets rolling and the U.S. takes back the state.

[Zaknafien]

That would be ironically amusing and disgusting if the U.S. had to illegally occupy itself. lol

[Lemur]

That would be ironically amusing and disgusting if the U.S. had to illegally occupy itself. lol
Are you implying that there's such a thing as a "legal" occupation? Just asking ...

This story reminds me of some of the better graffiti in New York, including a wall with giant letters spray-painted on it that read, "U.S. Out of Brooklyn!"

[Zaknafien]

sure, I'd be perfectly willing to accept the Allied occupation of Germany as legal.

[doc_bean]

The North shall rise again !

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

I say they go for it. States seceding worked out pretty well last time they tried it, if memory serves.

[Xiahou]

I say they go for it. States seceding worked out pretty well last time they tried it, if memory serves.
:laugh4:
None could stand against the might of Vermont!

[Kralizec]

Isn't Vermont sparsely populated? How much of an economy do they have?

[Odin]

Isn't Vermont sparsely populated? How much of an economy do they have?

check out the numbers here (http://www.fedstats.gov/qf/states/50000.html)

[GeneralHankerchief]

Isn't Vermont sparsely populated? How much of an economy do they have?

Tourism.

There's always been talk of secession if a state has been really, really PO'd at the national policies. Happened before the Civil War, happened after. They'll never do it, not with the 2008 elections coming up.

[AntiochusIII]

Forget Vermont, I think it's high time the People of Washington D.C. rise up against their US oppressors.

"She's a rebel!"

[Lemur]

The North shall rise again !
Seriously, who do they think they are? Quebec?

[Louis VI the Fat]

Seriously, who do they think they are? Quebec?Well...they are called Vermont for a reason, 'Green Mountain'. With Montpelier for a capital. And a population that's of 23% French / French Canadien heritage. So:

Vive le Vermont! Vive le Vermont libre! Et vive l’Amérique française!

[Marshal Murat]

I think Louisiana would join in this Francophone liberation movement (VQL-Vermont, Quebec, Lousiana!)

[Uesugi Kenshin]

As the official Org delegate from the Republic of Vermont I have to say I am astonished and offended by the unfair and degrading treatment you people have showed our great nation. We may at the moment be a member state of the United States of America, but we have a history of independence dating back to the 18th century when Vermont was an independent state during the time of the Articles of Confederation, with no alliegance to the United States of America.

As to the accusations that Vermont is in some way attempting to follow Quebec or is serving the interests of our French-Canadian minority in it's quest for independence I find that equally offensive. In no way is Vermont a part of the Francophone conspiracy of world domination. Furthermore Vermont has no need to follow the example of such a second rate secessionist state such as Quebec, which has never achieved independence as Vermont did in the 18th century after several small conflicts with New York and New Hampshire. No offense intended to any citizens of Quebec of course.

On a more serious note Vermont is a really great state and I'm really proud to be from Vermont and though it would definately make it much harder for me to figure out where I'm going to college (or easier due to limited selection?) when I seriously think about it in a foriegn relations and civil liberties point of view Vermont would do a much better job governing itself than the USA. At least in my opinion, being a bit of a lefty as I am. Economically it would cause a lot of problems for Vermont if Vermont seceded if the US did not allow free trade between the two states. In that case Vermont would also have to rely on Canada for trade with the outside world. That's assuming the USA didn't send in the army and blow the hell out of my beloved state of course.

Vermont really is a very special place and I can't say I'd really be against it if I was asked to vote for secession. At this point I doubt the USA would get away with forcefully reoccupying Vermont because of where international opinion has sunken to, though the US could just mimic Russia and ignore world opinion I suppose. It'd be a loss for the USA though, there would no longer be a socialist in the senate (Bernie Sanders) or a socially progressive state like Vermont showing the rest of the USA that Civil Unions (or *GASP* gay marriages) are not one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse.

That being said it's not going to happen. Where I live there isn't any serious talk of secession and I doubt the majority of people, especially the republicans, would be all that interested in seceding.

EDIT: Oh yeah and stop pronouncing Montepelier like you would in French you francophiles! In Vermont it's called Mont-peal-yur not Mont-peal-ye or however you would right that.

[Banquo's Ghost]

We may at the moment be a member state of the United States of America, but we have a history of independence dating back to the 18th century when Vermont was an independent state during the time of the Articles of Confederation, with no alliegance to the United States of America.


I'm intrigued as to the Constitutional position. Since Vermont was an independent state that joined the United States, does it in fact have the full right to secede? Surely a state can enter into a treaty and then at some point, withdraw? Or has there been an Amendment that, by acquiescing to its passage, founder states relinquished the right to secede?

What would be the requirements for this to happen, if allowed? Would it be a matter for the state legislature, or the governor or would it have to go to a referendum of the people? What quorum would be considered binding?

[Ja'chyra]

I think this is really quite interesting, it gives the US butting into other countries business a whole new perspective.

Afetr all didn't they have an opinion about NI? Other than paying for weapons that is.

[HoreTore]

I fully support anyone who wants a quick way out of Bush's influence...

[Odin]

I'm intrigued as to the Constitutional position. Since Vermont was an independent state that joined the United States, does it in fact have the full right to secede? Surely a state can enter into a treaty and then at some point, withdraw? Or has there been an Amendment that, by acquiescing to its passage, founder states relinquished the right to secede?

What would be the requirements for this to happen, if allowed? Would it be a matter for the state legislature, or the governor or would it have to go to a referendum of the people? What quorum would be considered binding?

Well technically there isnt anything in the constitution that I have seen that prohibits sucession. the 10th amendment under the bill of rights tells us that the federal government is limited to power only granted under the constitutution. Therefore an issue not covered by the constitution defaults to the states, thier constitutions and legislatures.

So unless I missed it, the constitution does not prohibit succession, therefore the federal government has no legal ability under the constitution to enforce a law or act should a state seceed. I cant find a legal argument to explain the american civil war, simply the justification that the confederacy was in revolt.

Im sure there are civil war scholars here that will correct me with detail, but from what i have read i dont see any legal way in which the feds could stop Vermont, via the constitution anyway.

[InsaneApache]

Interesting stuff. About the rule of law, when did the current administration bother with little intricacies as that?

[Odin]

Interesting stuff. About the rule of law, when did the current administration bother with little intricacies as that?

Sadly, a lot of the actions by the current administration have fallen under the rule of law. That wonderful legislation called the "patriot act" gave a lot of lattitude to these clowns, of course like most drunk on power they over reached.

Vermonts timing is actually pretty good, there chances of success are greater,

[Mikeus Caesar]

Maybe if we're lucky we'll end up with a Crimson Skies scenario, albeit without the sky-pirates.

And with regards to the 'the south will rise again!' phrase - well, the charming parallel universe of Crimson Skies would certainly support that.

Long live the Confederation of Dixie!

[Gawain of Orkeny]

That would be ironically amusing and disgusting if the U.S. had to illegally occupy itself. lol

Hasnt that already been done?

[Strike For The South]

Everyone wants to be like Texas:smash:

[Odin]

Everyone wants to be like Texas:smash:

Having spent some time in Texas myself, they can try as hard as they want, there is only one Texas.

[Spino]

At the rate things are going I would not be surprised in the least if a state or collection of states decided to cut loose and go it alone or as a combined nation. Can you imagine how wildly popular these seceding states would be if they offered smaller government, lower taxes, minimal to non-existent social engineering wastage (i.e. affirmative action), etc.?

The problem would be if any of these states considering secession were simply too valuable to lose. The loss of Vermont would not be nearly as alarming as the loss of say, Texas or Alaska. The Union moved heaven and earth to keep the South from seceding because there was far too much real estate, raw materials, farmland and tax revenue to simply let it go.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Everyone wants to be like Texas

Im surprised at this coming from you but your close. I dont think Texas was alone or led this venture. Have not states already tried this? What was the result? What do you think Bush's response would be ?:laugh4:

[Lemur]

Our brave Union soldiers will fight and fall on the fields of ... whatever fields there are ... in Vermont. Um, our cannons will blast those damn rebs from the hillsides, and our cavalry will scour the back alleys of Burlington and Rutland until every rebel is dead or surrendered. After our steam-powered warships have shelled the Vermont coast into submission, we will try and hang that notorious seditionist, their "governor" Jim Douglas.

His truth is marching on!

[Strike For The South]

Having spent some time in Texas myself, they can try as hard as they want, there is only one Texas.

You cant emulate perfection

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Need we remind you that you guys made Bush famous as you elected him to run your state. Perfection indeed :laugh4:

You know what they tell you in the service about Texans. Theres only two kinds. :)

[lars573]

This is ironic. The sepratist movement in Quebec looks to be circling the drain at the same time that a sepratist movement is born in Vermont. :laugh4:

[Xiahou]

I'm intrigued as to the Constitutional position. Since Vermont was an independent state that joined the United States, does it in fact have the full right to secede? Surely a state can enter into a treaty and then at some point, withdraw? Or has there been an Amendment that, by acquiescing to its passage, founder states relinquished the right to secede?My view on it is that there's no "backsies". The state entered into the agreement (Constitution) and it has no expiration date or mechanism with withdrawing from it. It doesn't matter if they willing entered into the agreement. If I willingly sign a contract, it doesn't free me to end it at will- quite the opposite, in fact.

Of course, in reality, they can do what they want and then it's up to the rest of the USA to force them into compliance- or not.

[Zaknafien]

Seeing as how a large part of our US military is from Texas, they'd have a pretty good chance. Besides I dont think the "Union" could seriously legitimately do anything bellicose against succeeding states these days, we wouldn't let them do anything illegal.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

If I willingly sign a contract, it doesn't free me to end it at will- quite the opposite, in fact.

In this case the contract had changed. Do you imagine any state would have joined if they had known that this was to be the interpretation of the constitution? Maybe a few in New England. It was supposed to be a Republic with states rights supreme in most matters even down to declaring a state religion. Ut oh here we go again folks.

[Don Corleone]

Actually, New England was the first successful secessionist movement in the USA. They voted to leave during the War of 1812 as they wanted to remain on good terms with England and didn't want to lose the trade prospects. Read up on a little known historical event called the Hartford Convention. Never seen such backtracking and sucking up in all your life (they accidentally seceeded after the peace broke out, had to really cozy up to Madison).

As for Vermont seceding, sure, why not? It'll make the flag look pretty again (49 stars line up way better than 50). And since they're a bunch of pot-smoking hippies over there that take more in federal funds than they pay in taxes, we'll actually wind up net positive. Good riddance! :whip:

[Odin]

As for Vermont seceding, sure, why not? It'll make the flag look pretty again (49 stars line up way better than 50). And since they're a bunch of pot-smoking hippies over there that take more in federal funds than they pay in taxes, we'll actually wind up net positive. Good riddance! :whip:

:laugh4:

[Spino]

Our brave Union soldiers will fight and fall on the fields of ... whatever fields there are ... in Vermont. Um, our cannons will blast those damn rebs from the hillsides, and our cavalry will scour the back alleys of Burlington and Rutland until every rebel is dead or surrendered. After our steam-powered warships have shelled the Vermont coast into submission, we will try and hang that notorious seditionist, their "governor" Jim Douglas.

His truth is marching on!

Why do you hate freedom maple syrup?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont


In 2001, Vermont produced 275,000 US gallons (1,040,000 L) of maple syrup, about one-quarter of U.S. production. For 2005 that number was 410,000 accounting for 37% of national production. [15] The Vermont Department of Agriculture maintains a rating standard for maple syrup that is higher than the U.S. Department of Agriculture's, all other states, and Canada.
This must not come to pass! To arms! :charge:


Actually, New England was the first successful secessionist movement in the USA. They voted to leave during the War of 1812 as they wanted to remain on good terms with England and didn't want to lose the trade prospects. Read up on a little known historical event called the Hartford Convention. Never seen such backtracking and sucking up in all your life (they accidentally seceeded after the peace broke out, had to really cozy up to Madison).
Professor 'Don' Hoyle speaketh.


As for Vermont seceding, sure, why not? It'll make the flag look pretty again (49 stars line up way better than 50). And since they're a bunch of pot-smoking hippies over there that take more in federal funds than they pay in taxes, we'll actually wind up net positive. Good riddance!
Yeah but the syrup man, what about the maple syrup? Brown gold, Vermont Tea. Do you really wanna pay through the nose for syrup sold by <gasp> some crazy Canuck? ~:shock:

[drone]

Yeah but the syrup man, what about the maple syrup? Brown gold, Vermont Tea. Do you really wanna pay through the nose for syrup sold by <gasp> some crazy Canuck? ~:shock:
Our trade deficit is bad enough as is. ~D

I love Vermont, it's offbeat and wacky, but not annoying like California. It would be a great loss, we need some fruits and nuts in the mix.

Maybe all the Quebec separatists snuck through our porous northern border and moved to Vermont. Once they get amnesty, kiss Vermont goodbye! :inquisitive:

[Meneldil]

EDIT: Oh yeah and stop pronouncing Montepelier like you would in French you francophiles! In Vermont it's called Mont-peal-yur not Mont-peal-ye or however you would right that.

Well, sorry but Montpelier is Montpelier, and Vermont is Vermont. Not our fault if you screwed up the pronouncing and forgot the correct one :-P

[Seamus Fermanagh]

My view on it is that there's no "backsies". The state entered into the agreement (Constitution) and it has no expiration date or mechanism with withdrawing from it. It doesn't matter if they willing entered into the agreement. If I willingly sign a contract, it doesn't free me to end it at will- quite the opposite, in fact.

Of course, in reality, they can do what they want and then it's up to the rest of the USA to force them into compliance- or not.

The Constitution is silent on the issue of secession. Lincoln took your interpretation, and enforced it.

Article 4, which addresses relations between the states, gives Congress -- with the consent of the states -- power to create new states or combine existing ones.

Implicitly (my interpretation) secession would be possible in the same manner as an ammendment to the Constitution. Congress, The President, and 2/3 of the existing states (34) would need to concur.

It is, imo, FAR more likely that we would see some of the larger states divide into smaller states than secession.



Edit: If they secede illegally, "King Syrup" will bring England and France in against us, and then we'd be.....oh, never mind.

[Big King Sanctaphrax]

Article 4, which addresses relations between the states, gives Congress -- with the consent of the states -- power to create new states or combine existing ones.

This sounds pretty cool. Perhaps you should combine all of the states in New England into one super-state? I mean, some of them are ridiculously small, it's rather fiddly to look at on a map.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

This sounds pretty cool. Perhaps you should combine all of the states in New England into one super-state? I mean, some of them are ridiculously small, it's rather fiddly to look at on a map.

If state power continues to wane in favor of the federal government -- and this seems likely since that is the general trend in the USA over the last 140 years -- it would actually be a fairly smart move. Not likely to happen soon though, as the various governors, legislatures, etc. will not willingly give oer their power to one entity (Europe may have some experience on this issue :cheesy: ).

[Strike For The South]

Texas is so big we can split in to 5 states. We are the best

[GeneralHankerchief]

Banquo: Well, it's already been tried. Texas used to be its own independent Republic. It requested and received annexation, and a few years later it seceded with the CSA.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Constitution is silent on the issue of secession. Lincoln took your interpretation, and enforced it.

Exactly. Again no state would have joined the union if they had thought that Xiahou's position was that of the constitution. Its almost like saying we cant withdraw from the UN. That is one reason I always sided with the South.

[Don Corleone]

Why do you hate freedom maple syrup?

Yeah but the syrup man, what about the maple syrup? Brown gold, Vermont Tea. Do you really wanna pay through the nose for syrup sold by <gasp> some crazy Canuck? ~:shock:

There's as much syrup coming out of my state as there is Vermont. We just don't get the press. See, New Hampshire is Vermont, done Right and done right. :laugh4:

[Don Corleone]

This sounds pretty cool. Perhaps you should combine all of the states in New England into one super-state? I mean, some of them are ridiculously small, it's rather fiddly to look at on a map.

Hey man, watch your tongue. Rhode Island could kick the crap out of Wales any day of the week. :boxing: And I don't even want to think what would happen if Connecticut decided to take you on..:skull:

Yeah, all kidding aside, at the very least the three lower states should get rolled up. I remember when I first visited Houston. I was struck by an idea and went and looked it up, and.... yep, the city of Houston (and several others) are larger by area than Rhode Island. :embarassed:

New Hampshire is actually bigger than you might think: it's roughly trapezoidal with the height about 200 miles, the wider bottom is about 100 miles across, the top is tapered down to about 20. Vermont is roughly the same size, just flipped around. Maine is actually pretty good sized, it's slightly bigger than the entire island of Ireland.

[drone]

The Constitution is silent on the issue of secession. Lincoln took your interpretation, and enforced it.

Article 4, which addresses relations between the states, gives Congress -- with the consent of the states -- power to create new states or combine existing ones.
Actually, I would think from a legal standpoint that nothing would have to be done at the federal level to secede. If the Constitution doesn't mention it, it should fall into the realm of the 10th Amendment. You know, the one we don't pay attention to anymore, which is the whole reason we are having this discussion. I assume an action by the state government would be enough.

[Zaknafien]

That's true, but then surely King George would try to pronounce them terroist neer-do-wells and send in the liberators :)

[GeneralHankerchief]

That's true, but then surely King George would try to pronounce them terroist neer-do-wells and send in the liberators :)

The Southern argument for leaving the country back in 1861 is essentially the same thing that Vermont is saying now. They don't like the President, or how Washington is running things, and nobody should be able to force them to stay in. Your point?

[Zaknafien]

Uh, that they're right? And no one should be able to force them to stay in, that much should be obvious as states willingly entered the Union and have the right to leave it if it is in their people's intrest.

[GeneralHankerchief]

Okay, so then I assume you supported the CSA's right to secede then?

(I'm not using this against you, just interested to know.)

[Zaknafien]

Well certainly they had the right to secede. They did vote for it. Thats why they call it the War of Northern Aggression.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Even if they didnt have the right is that a reason to start a war and kill people? If I enter into a contract with you and I break it can you attack me or kill me?

[Strike For The South]

Texas is bigger than France and the low countries put together

[lars573]

And Quebec, whose people are mostly French decended. Is over twice the size of Texas. With less than half the population.

[Lemur]

Even if they didnt have the right is that a reason to start a war and kill people?
It's fine to kill traitorous rebels with French leanings. I thought everybody understood that. Let them eat Freedom Fries!

If I enter into a contract with you and I break it can you attack me or kill me?
You're the guy making people sign contracts every day, right? Don't tell me there isn't a little clause in there somewhere about breaking their kneecaps if they don't return the movies ...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You're the guy making people sign contracts every day, right? Don't tell me there isn't a little clause in there somewhere about breaking their kneecaps if they don't return the movies ...

I dont rent them I sell them. But if you dont buy i may have to make you an offer you cant refuse. :skull:

[Beirut]

Texas is bigger than France and the low countries put together

Quebec is bigger then Texas and France put together.

But as big as Canada is, we'll make room for Vermont to join the family any time she wants. Alaska too. :canada:

[InsaneApache]

A serious note. If Vermont did secede, would it be viable as an independent state? If not, would it be feasible for it to join the Canadian federation? How would the new subjects of Her Britannic Majesty take to their new found freedoms and liberties?

Would any other of our thirteen former colonies realise the error of their ways and plead to return to the fold?

In the UK, if one of the constituent countries decided to leave by a popular vote then it would be allowed to. Would the US allow the same if the vote was overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the Union?

[Uesugi Kenshin]

Before we get too serious I'd just like to say that New Hampshire is way more red (Republican) than Vermont and because of that way more main-stream and normal. That's why Vermont maple syrup (and Ben and Jerries') is so much better than every other type of syrup and ice cream that comes from somewhere else. Wackiness actually makes things taste better. The wakiness of Vermont maple trees makes the maple syrup produced in Vermont up to 30% tastier. Who can argue with such facts? Either bow to our collective will to govern in a more privacy/individual respecting manner and not invade every country that looks at us funny or prepare for us to secede and bring the most valuable liquid substance on this planet with us.

I don't really think Vermonter's would be all that thrilled about joining Canada. If Vermont seceded the people would probably want to lead their own independent state. But that's just my feel on the topic, I haven't exactly questioned my fellow Vermonters very intensly about that, especially since I won't be back in Vermont until the 15th of July.

[Banquo's Ghost]

It's fine to kill traitorous rebels with French leanings. I thought everybody understood that.

Wasn't that King George's position? ~;p

[Odin]

A serious note. If Vermont did secede, would it be viable as an independent state?

Well "viable" is subjective and we would get lots of views on that, but let me throw some facts out see what you think.

1. in 2004 Vermont recieved 4,632,923,000. in federal spending. So thats 4.5 billion less that would go into thier economy.

2. in 2004 average earnings per job was $34,963.00, the rest of the country's avarage was $44,503.00. So vermont would need to be competitive to maintain the workforce, how do you raise the income of the workers in your country? Mandated wage increases?

3. total sales(retail, manufacturing etc) total approx 23 million by 2002 estimates (I think I am reading the chart correctly). How much new tax would be needed to support a military? Would it be derived on a sales tax?





If not, would it be feasible for it to join the Canadian federation?

Given the numbers and the prospect of maintaining the same standard of living they enjoyed in the U.S., Id say it would be feasible, would canada make up that 4.5 billion though?


How would the new subjects of Her Britannic Majesty take to their new found freedoms and liberties?

Since we are on a serious note (per your request) what new freedoms and liberties do you mean?


Would any other of our thirteen former colonies realise the error of their ways and plead to return to the fold?

I dont think so, its far to expensive to return to the fold, and "pleading" isnt something most like to do.


Would the US allow the same if the vote was overwhelmingly in favour of leaving the Union?

In my opinion no, but loosing vermont isnt going to be a major drain on the U.S. anyway.

Source of data appears in link on my post on first page of the thread

[lars573]

Given the numbers and the prospect of maintaining the same standard of living they enjoyed in the U.S., Id say it would be feasible, would canada make up that 4.5 billion though?
Probably not. IF GDP per capita is the same as median income. Then by simple conversion of Vermonts median incomeand comparing it to the provincial GDP per capita's. If Vermont did join our confederation they'd have the second highest GDP per capita. A straight conversion comes out as $51,350, which would be second to Alberta's $66,644. Meaing they pay money to Ottawa. But that's only for the federal equalization. I've no data on how much money the federal government contributes to each provinces healthcare plan and education.



Since we are on a serious note (per your request) what new freedoms and liberties do you mean?
Having more federal senators that they don't have to elect (going by the Newfoundland example). Tossing all those republican institutions (like their constitution and book of laws) and becoming subject-citizens of her majesty the Queen. That whole upper house of their legislature. Being legally obligated to set up a socialized health care system (which is a provncially run insurance plan that covers everyting save elective surgery, eye, and dental care), and support it with some kind of VAT sales tax. It's rate being deterined by what their economy could support. And having to pay a 6% VAT called GST on 90% of comsumer goods and services.

[Odin]

Having more federal senators that they don't have to elect (going by the Newfoundland example). Tossing all those republican institutions (like their constitution and book of laws) and becoming subject-citizens of her majesty the Queen. That whole upper house of their legislature. Being legally obligated to set up a socialized health care system (which is a provncially run insurance plan that covers everyting save elective surgery, eye, and dental care), and support it with some kind of VAT sales tax. It's rate being deterined by what their economy could support. And having to pay a 6% VAT called GST on 90% of comsumer goods and services.

:dizzy2: I'll wait on you for the punch line....

[Don Corleone]

Before we get too serious I'd just like to say that New Hampshire is way more red (Republican) than Vermont and because of that way more main-stream and normal. That's why Vermont maple syrup (and Ben and Jerries') is so much better than every other type of syrup and ice cream that comes from somewhere else. Wackiness actually makes things taste better. The wakiness of Vermont maple trees makes the maple syrup produced in Vermont up to 30% tastier. Who can argue with such facts? Either bow to our collective will to govern in a more privacy/individual respecting manner and not invade every country that looks at us funny or prepare for us to secede and bring the most valuable liquid substance on this planet with us.
.

I disagree completely. Utterly. No basis in truth, whatsoever. If anything, maple trees here in New Hampshire are the product of wholesome, traditional forestry services. Many foresters even carry a bible on them. As a result, the maple trees grow up more well adjusted and more prepared to perform the duties society requires of them, namely producing sap.

In Vermont, you go back and forth between ignoring your trees, what with your high-times parties with your buddies to trying to soothe your own guilt by spoiling them rotten, giving them the latest new fangled fertilizer. Your trees have no sense of responsibility and grow up to be rotten producers, if they ever produce at all. You have no work ethic and therefore you have no work ethic to pass on to your trees.

We in New Hampshire believe in doing things the way they've always been done. The time honored tradition of the nuclear forestry program, dating back to the golden age of the 1950s. Our trees know what's expected of them from an early age, and they are brought up knowing if they don't do it, there's no safety net. We give them wholesome environments and we even make certain that James Dobson comes out to read to them at least twice a year.

[lars573]

:dizzy2: I'll wait on you for the punch line....
The punch line, those weren't jokes. :sweatdrop:

And I forgot about the whole having to provide all official documents in both official languages thing.

[LeftEyeNine]

Sorry to dive in like a Martian but briefly what the general idea of Vermont residents are about this secession? Is it a mere one shared by a few or significantly general ?

[Strike For The South]

Why Texas should be independent.

-Oil
-Nukes
-Gas
-Uranium
-Coastline
-Self sufficent
-Abundant land
-Were better off by ourselves

[Louis VI the Fat]

The US is on the brink of collapse, LEN.

I give it five more years. Ten max. All I'm hoping for anymore is a relatively peaceful transition into it's successor states.

[Strike For The South]

Texas will reign supremee
:smash: :smash: :smash:

[AntiochusIII]

Will you conquer Mexico for me then? :2thumbsup:

[LeftEyeNine]

The US is on the brink of collapse, LEN.

I give it five more years. Ten max. All I'm hoping for anymore is a relatively peaceful transition into it's successor states.

I was serious with my question :book:

[AntiochusIII]

I was serious with my question :book:I suppose you'll have to wait until Uesugi Kenshin got back to Vermont, as he is most likely to get first-hand observations about it. My guess? Just a popular fad or another way to blow off steam for being ruled by an idiot for seven Terrible Years of Wailing and Gnashing of Teeth.

Here in Nevada, Jesusland, I don't think most people here even know where Vermont is. :beam:

Edit: 2500...? *shock, internet suicide pending*

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Will you conquer Mexico for me then?

Isnt it going badly then for Texas? I mean its the other way around today no? Soon Strike will only be speaking Spanish :laugh4:

[AntiochusIII]

Isnt it going badly then for Texas? I mean its the other way around today no? Soon Strike will only be speaking Spanish :laugh4:Who says speaking Spanish, having a hot Latino girlfriend, and conquering Mexico are mutually exclusive? ~;)

I say, San Antonio will soon be the capital of the new Latin (America) Empire. Viva la Texas!

[Strike For The South]

Just becuase you're brown doesnt mean you cant be a Texan. We dont need to conquer Mexico ethier we have all the best of Mexico right here. Were like a big Belgium with cowboy hats and oil

[Marshal Murat]

Latin (America) Empire

Los Angeles already has that title.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Just becuase you're brown doesnt mean you cant be a Texan.

Hey Im no racist. My point is soon there will be more legal citizens of Mexico living in Texas than legal americans living there. Then they will annex it back to Mexico :laugh4:

Just like Kosovo

[Strike For The South]

Hey Im no racist. My point is soon there will be more legal citizens of Mexico living in Texas than legal americans living there. Then they will annex it back to Mexico :laugh4:

Just like Kosovo

lol have you ever been here? The mexicans dont want to go back (except the very rich) Trust me Texas mexicans and mexican mexicans are very very different

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The mexicans dont want to go back

Who said anything about going back? :dizzy2:

And if Texas can leave then so can we

NewYork

New York's gross state product in 2005 was $963.5 billion, ranking third in size behind the larger states of California and Texas.[7] If New York were an independent nation, it would rank as the 16th largest economy in the world behind South Korea. Its 2005 per capita personal income was $40,072, an increase of 4.2% from 2004, placing it fifth in the nation behind Maryland, and eighth in the world behind Ireland. New York's agricultural outputs are dairy products, cattle and other livestock, vegetables, nursery stock, and apples. Its industrial outputs are printing and publishing, scientific instruments, electric equipment, machinery, chemical products, and tourism.

New York exports a wide variety of goods such as foodstuffs, commodities, minerals, manufactured goods, cut diamonds, and automobile parts. New York's five largest export markets in 2004 were Canada ($30.2 billion), United Kingdom ($3.3 billion), Japan ($2.6 billion), Israel ($2.4 billion), and Switzerland ($1.8 billion). New York's largest imports are oil, gold, aluminum, natural gas, electricity, rough diamonds, and lumber.


New York City is the leading center of banking, finance and communication in the United States and is the location of the New York Stock Exchange, the largest stock exchange in the world by dollar volume. Many of the world's largest corporations are based in the city.

The state also has a large manufacturing sector that includes printing and the production of garments, furs, railroad equipment and bus line vehicles. Many of these industries are concentrated in upstate regions. Albany and the Hudson Valley are major centers of nanotechnology and microchip manufacturing, while the Rochester area is important in photographic equipment and imaging.

New York is a major agricultural producer, ranking among the top five states for agricultural products including dairy, apples, cherries, cabbage, potatoes, onions, maple syrup and many others. The state is the largest producer of cabbage in the U.S. The state has about a quarter of its land in farms and produced US$3.4 billion in agricultural products in 2001. The south shore of Lake Ontario provides the right mix of soils and microclimate for many apple, cherry, plum, pear and peach orchards. Apples are also grown in the Hudson Valley and near Lake Champlain. The south shore of Lake Erie and the southern Finger Lakes hillsides have many vineyards. New York is the nation's third-largest grape-producing state, behind California, and second largest wine producer by volume. In 2004, New York's wine and grape industry brought US$6 billion into the state economy. The state has 30,000 acres (120 km²) of vineyards, 212 wineries, and produced 200 million bottles of wine in 2004. A moderately sized saltwater commercial fishery is located along the Atlantic side of Long Island. The principal catches by value are clams, lobsters, squid, and flounder.


New York boasts the most extensive and one of the oldest transportation infrastructures in the country.


New York City is home to the most complex and extensive transportation network in the United States, with more than 12,000 iconic yellow cabs,[8] 120,000 daily bicyclists,[9] a massive subway system, bus and railroad systems, immense airports, landmark bridges and tunnels, ferry service and even an aerial commuter tramway. About one in every three users of mass transit in the United States and two-thirds of the nation's rail riders live in New York and its suburbs.

We sure would have a capitol :beam: Or would we keep it in that dump called Albany. Never could figure how it got there.

For those of you who think NY is all city :beam:

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/0/09/Bear_Mtn_Bridge.jpg/230px-Bear_Mtn_Bridge.jpg


The state has a strong imbalance of payments with the federal government. New York state receives 82 cents in services for every $1 it sends in taxes to the federal government in Washington.[11] The state ranks near the bottom, in 42nd place, in federal spending per tax dollar.

We supply welfare for the rest of the nation LOL :wall:

New York (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York)

Any other rebels about?

[Strike For The South]

As of 2006 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/As_of_2006), Texas, for the first time, has more Fortune 500 company headquarters (56) than any other state (California has 55; ironically, it was due to the move of Fluor Corp. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fluor_Corp.) from California to Texas). This has been attributed to both the growth in population in Texas and the rise of oil prices in 2005, which resulted in the growth in revenues of many Texas oil drilling and processing companies.


Texas's growth is often attributed to the availability of jobs, the low cost of housing (housing values in the Dallas, Houston, and San Antonio areas, while generally rising, have not risen at the astronomical rates of other cities such as San Francisco), the lack of a personal state income tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_income_tax), low taxation and limited regulation of business (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Business), a geographic location in the center of the country, limited government (the Texas Legislature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_Legislature) meets only once every two years), favorable climate in many areas of the state, and vast, plentiful supplies of oil and natural gas. The known petroleum deposits of Texas are about 8 billion barrels, which makes up approximately one-third of the known U. S. supply. Texas has 4.6 billion barrels of proven crude oil (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Petroleum) reserves.[42] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas#_note-Petrol) There are currently 33 billionaires residing in Texas today. Dallas has 11 billionaires, the most of any city in Texas.


In 2006, Texas had a gross state product (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_domestic_product) of $1.0856 trillion[40] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas#_note-32), the second (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_U.S._states_by_GDP_%28nominal%29) highest in the U.S. after California (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California), after recently surpassing New York state.[41] (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas#_note-33) Gross state product (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gross_state_product) per capita as of 2005 was $42,975. Texas leads the nation in number of beef, which usually exceed 16 million head. Cotton is the leading crop and the state's second-most-valuable farm product. Texas also leads in national production of grain sorghum, watermelons, cabbages, and spinach. Wheat, corn, and other grains are also important.




Texas is second only to California, with almost 11 million civilian workers giving it the second largest workforce of any state in the United States (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States). The lack of personal income tax (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_income_tax) as well as the largely undervalued real estate throughout Texas has led to large growth in population. Since the 2003 legislature the Governor's office has made economic development a top priority. The state has two major economic centers: Dallas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dallas-Fort_Worth_Metroplex) and Houston (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houston). Houston stands at the center of the petrochemical and biomedical (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biomedical) research trades while Dallas functions as the center of the aerospace/defense manufacturing and information technology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_technology) labor market in Texas. Other major cities include San Antonio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/San_Antonio%2C_Texas), Austin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Austin%2C_Texas), Corpus Christi (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corpus_Christi%2C_Texas), Lubbock (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lubbock%2C_Texas), Amarillo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amarillo%2C_Texas), Abilene (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abilene%2C_Texas), College Station (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/College_Station%2C_Texas), Beaumont (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beaumont%2C_Texas), Tyler (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tyler%2C_Texas), Odessa (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Odessa%2C_Texas) and Midland (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midland%2C_Texas). Other important cities include Killeen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killeen%2C_Texas) (home to Fort Hood (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_Hood), the largest military post in the U.S.) and the cities of Brownsville (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownsville%2C_Texas), El Paso (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Paso%2C_Texas), Del Rio (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Del_Rio%2C_Texas), Eagle Pass (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eagle_Pass%2C_Texas), Laredo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laredo%2C_Texas), and McAllen (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McAllen%2C_Texas) (these have particular significance due to their location on the border with Mexico, making them important trade points).


We win

[Gawain of Orkeny]

We win

I said we can leave also. But just because your bigger dont make you better:laugh4: New Yorkers are a lot more savy.

[Seamus Fermanagh]

I said we can leave also. But just because your bigger dont make you better:laugh4: New Yorkers are a lot more savy.

Do NOT let the accent and the "ya'lls" fool you.


Personally, I've never encountered a state with a more independent identity and culture than Texas. Heck, the place even has 5 different climate zones and college dorms with their own zip codes.

Enjoyed the laser show on the cliff at Fiesta Texas too -- fun stuff.

[Crazed Rabbit]

I don't know if I'd want to live in a 'country' that arrests and charges people for looking at police dogs:


Animal cruelty case yields 'doggone' dismissal

June 6, 2007

By Peter Hirschfeld Times Argus Staff

CHELSEA – A woman facing jail time for "staring" at a police dog had charges against her dropped Monday after an Orange County prosecutor viewed videotape of the alleged crime.

Jayna Hutchinson, now of Lebanon, N.H., was scheduled for a jury trial this week on a misdemeanor charge of cruelty to animals.

A Vermont State Police sergeant said Hutchinson was intoxicated and stared at his police dog in a "taunting/harassing manner" last July while officers were in the process of investigating a reported melee outside a West Fairlee establishment.
http://www.timesargus.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070606/NEWS01/706060362/1002/NEWS01

Or maybe that's just me.

CR

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Do NOT let the accent and the "ya'lls" fool you.

No way. But come on. Were talking New York here. I dont care where in the world you are from you better make sure you still have your shorts after doing bussiness with one of us. We can rip you off and have you smiling at the same time thinking you just got the greatest deal in the world. :help: New Yorkers run at a faster pace than the rest of the nation. Im shocked every time I go to Calif and see how laid back they are there. We are the economic capital of the world. And I might add have the best pizza in the world :laugh4:

Ive lived and been all around the US and no state has people like New Yorkers. Especially those in the city.

But whos better isnt the point. New York could do fine on its own as could most states.

[Lemur]

And I might add have the best pizza in the world :laugh4:
You must not be referring to Brooklyn pizza, 'cause that stuff is nasty. Limp, greasy, pillsbury dough-boy crust ... ugh. I had to swear off pizza for the eight years I lived there.

You want good pizza, try Chicago.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You want good pizza, try Chicago.

:laugh4:

You have to be kidding thats not pizza. But Im not going too insult it . Its good in its own way. Sort of a mix between neopolatain and sicilian . New York in reality invented pizza and made it popular in the US.

[Uesugi Kenshin]

I disagree completely. Utterly. No basis in truth, whatsoever. If anything, maple trees here in New Hampshire are the product of wholesome, traditional forestry services. Many foresters even carry a bible on them. As a result, the maple trees grow up more well adjusted and more prepared to perform the duties society requires of them, namely producing sap.

In Vermont, you go back and forth between ignoring your trees, what with your high-times parties with your buddies to trying to soothe your own guilt by spoiling them rotten, giving them the latest new fangled fertilizer. Your trees have no sense of responsibility and grow up to be rotten producers, if they ever produce at all. You have no work ethic and therefore you have no work ethic to pass on to your trees.

We in New Hampshire believe in doing things the way they've always been done. The time honored tradition of the nuclear forestry program, dating back to the golden age of the 1950s. Our trees know what's expected of them from an early age, and they are brought up knowing if they don't do it, there's no safety net. We give them wholesome environments and we even make certain that James Dobson comes out to read to them at least twice a year.

Don't you see Don that's the whole problem! You people are too caught up in societal norms to realize that wackiness leads to inspiration, and inspiration leads to better maple syrup, and ice cream flavors. Where would the world be today without Ben and Jerries having an ice cream flavor suitable for everyone outside of vegans? How can you argue with the taste explosion offered by such combinations as Coffee Heath Bar Crunch, Half Baked, or Caramel Sutra???

Anyway we respect your differences and are completely unbothered by your insistence as citizens of New Hampshire to remain a square state that allows us to buy fireworks and smuggle them back into our own state for illegal pleasures. Maybe someday New Hampshire will stop trying to fit in and just go it's own way like Vermont has chosen to do, until then we'll keep pondering independence in between bong hits (for the half of Vermont that are hippies) and look to the stars in search of new ideas.


Oh yeah and my serious opinion about Vermont seeking independence, at this point only a fringe group is considering independence and like the town that attempted to secede to New Hampshire last year (or the year before? Or sometime this decade??) there's almost no chance that anything serious will come of it unless the US as a whole continues to move away from Vermont's core values of peace and equality. Which even our republicans generally support. I suggest nobody from out of state tries to understand Vermont, it's like the twilight zone there, but in a good way.

Oh yeah and in my year away I've finally learned to really enjoy and respect the show put on by our trees every fall, there's nothing like a year in a land with much less impressive foliage to make you respect your own. But I still hate leaf-peepers. (leaf-peepers are tourists that clog up our roads every fall because they want to view our leaves)

[Spino]

You must not be referring to Brooklyn pizza, 'cause that stuff is nasty. Limp, greasy, pillsbury dough-boy crust ... ugh. I had to swear off pizza for the eight years I lived there.

You want good pizza, try Chicago.
Ok, first the slight to one of our two great syrup producing states and now this... Such blatant disrespect cannot go unpunished. I might have to contact some relatives of the silk suit persuasion to set you straight.

I don't know where you were in Brooklyn (I'm guessing Williamsburg or the Heights?) but the best NY pizza is typically found in Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights and Bay Ridge. Staten Island might be a good bet now that the place is polluted with Italians. The best pizza I ever had was made just around the corner from where I live, it was run by an Italian couple that made their own sauce which tasted like tomato flavored heaven. Tragically they sold the business and retired decades ago... :sad:

The key is to stick to the places run by real Italians who either make their own sauce or their own dough. Another key is to sample all the local pizzerias to get an idea which ones make the best regular slices, sicilian slices, calzones, rolls, etc. Unfortunately too many places, Italian run or otherwise, buy ALL their ingredients from vendors, this includes pre-made sauce and dough... blech.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

Wow I cant believe it. I was looking for my favorite Pizza place on the net and found this


Chicago vs. New York Pizza Throwdown

pizza85 The competition is hotter than a brick oven when pizzerias from the Windy City and the Big Apple battle each other to see who makes the best pizza, with three celebrity judges picking the winner!


And the winner was my favorite pizza place

LINK (http://www.rachaelrayshow.com/?q=tvshow/week/2007-04-25)

Thats just the promo for the show . Hers the winner and the best pizza in the world. I cant go to Queens without stopping there.

http://www.gabyspizza.com/BISA-GABYSfinal.jpg

You want pizza to die for this is it. This place has been here fo rover 40 years and they still hardly speak english.
:laugh4:

The key is to stick to the places run by real Italians who either make their own sauce or their own dough.

You mean and their own dough. And people the secret of NYC pizza is in the water.

[Lemur]

Everybody knows that Rachel Ray is guilty of NYC bias. Bias, I say! Bias!

My true feelings about Chicago vs. NYC pizza are complicated, but I wasn't ready to go into them in-depth in a thread derail. I'll boil it down to this: In Chi-town, getting a good pizza is easy. In NYC, it's too damn complicated. The corner stores bake absolute junk, and the good places generally don't deliver.

Frankly, I love Brooklyn and I love Chicago. So viva Brooklyn! Viva Chicago!

If you've never had Carmen's stuffed spinach pizza, though, you haven't lived.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The corner stores bake absolute junk,

No they make the best. Gabbys is a plain old pizza place. Nothing fancy not even a dinning room.


If you've never had Carmen's stuffed spinach pizza, though, you haven't lived.
Today 17:34

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://bradfitzpatrick.com/stock_illustration/images/cartoon_dog_barf_001.gif&imgrefurl=http://bradfitzpatrick.com/stock_illustration/cartoon_dog_barf_001.htm&h=180&w=240&sz=11&hl=en&start=7&um=1&tbnid=c-XEIsjzsF7MaM:&tbnh=83&tbnw=110&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dbarf%2Bgif%26svnum%3D10%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B2GGFB_enUS222US222

You call that pizza? Oh my.

[AntiochusIII]

Ah, Pizza war, now that's the stuff the Backroom is for. :2thumbsup:

I hate goddam Nevada. Not a single good food to boast about. :shame:

[doc_bean]

A
I hate goddam Nevada. Not a single good food to boast about. :shame:

You've got strip clubs and gambling though.

[AntiochusIII]

You've got strip clubs and gambling though.You can't eat that!!!

Well, technically...

Ahem.