Amount of armies...

[theforce]

I am a little sceptic about this one. In Japan we were able to control vast armies of men by having a certain amount of money that a country can give. Anyway things are changes in this game but the amount of armies each nation must mantain must be several times bigger that those any clan could have.
What do u guys think?

------------------
I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!

[Azzamain]

Not really remember armies at the start of shougn are pityfully small its only when you started taking over and ruling a considerable amount of land that your amries become bigger.And historical Armies in Japan tended to be much greater than european armies at the time .Then ahain I not sure does Japanese fudel age coinside witht he crusades.

[Wavesword]

Well in this period of history the notion of a regular tithe had not yet been established in many countries, instead the monarchy had to ask for money to cope with a particular emergency. This leads to the familiar situation where the ruler actually desires war in order to rule properly, but timing of course was everything. In this period France will be gathering up Normandy, bits of Italy, Flanders etc. before it even becomes the entity we understand as France- certainly the Hundred Years War was a major factor toward disparate groups of people thinking of themselves as 'French', and thus being willing to contribute. It's quite possible to raise large armies in these periods, it's just that only about 2% of these armies will be willing to stand and fight....

[theforce]

Yeah but in medieval each faction starts with a land equal if not greater and in some times many times bigger that Japan.
Byzantium had a regular army like England. Minor factions like the Scots won't have that though.

------------------
I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!

[Kas]

In medieval Europe most "wars" were fought with armies consisting of a baron with a handful of nights, a few dozen regular troops and a "bunch" of armed peasants.
Most armies were no bigger then 50-250 men.

Compared to the army of a low ranking minor daimyo....a sad pittyful mob.

Kas http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/biggrin.gif

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

There are a LOT of provinces and a LOT of land to cover.

The BIG impression i got from playing was that Trade (high income) is absolutely imperative for many if not all factions - the English lands, for instance, aren't that good in terms of farmland at all and natural resources are pretty scant. Thats fairly historically accurate also, as is the "foundation" of the English power based on the Wool trade and shipping in the later years.

There are two or three other key factors also:

Once you've "pacified" a land you really dont need to keep much of an army in it at all - a few peasants or militia will do the trick IF you have a nice big castle in there and a content population (a bit harder if you are cowing the population with your Dread factor).

Big Castles seem to be able to hold out for years and years with just a few men in them - thus giving you enought ime to race an army back there to raise a seige etc... obviously the other buildgins may suffer in the meantime but...

Getting around quickly is again down to sea power and protection from sea invasions is down to sea power. You cant invade a land via the sea until you've cleared a clear naval route to it - soe ven in provinces with ports you are "safe" so long as you keep a ship or two in the corresponding sea (until its sunk anyway)

Similar blockading can also neutralise your trading although you have to be at war to blockade trade - whilst any ship will always blockade troop movement even if neutral (and allied i think).

So for conquest you almost need this "rolling front" of strong armies behind which exist a "hollow shell" of "secure" provinces protected by big castles manned by very few men and a fleet or two to keep the enemy at bay.

What this means is that the actual "fighting armies" don't need to be huge in size or numbers.. or at least I see this as one tactic - the big problem with this is getting bogged down beseiging the oppositions big castles - if you want to advance rapidly you need to assault them and break them down or get stuck in a protracted years long waiting game.

Overall i think that pretty much reflects the period - but it makes for a HUGE SP game (btw, one thing you cant do is leave a province empty - even a content population will EVENTUALLY generate rebels if there are no garrisoned "soldiers" in its castle at all - not too mention the actions of other factions agents, priests etc stirring up trouble)


Bottom line though:

If you don't earn the money you are in trouble. Of course pilllaging other provinces, ransoming prisoners and such like also generate money - so a "mongol horde" type of tactic could work also.. just dont get bogged down though or you'd be in debt so fast you wouldn't know what hit you. (i'd imagine anyway, i didn't get a chance to really explore trade too much and im not sure how taxation at ports works, if its on imports and exports or what - the game is too big to get a handle on everything in one day)

[This message has been edited by Darkmoor_Dragon (edited 06-21-2002).]

[Papewaio]

Quote Originally posted by Darkmoor_Dragon:
- the game is too big to get a handle on everything in one day)

[/QUOTE]

Considering the very useful and good information that you post, I find it even better that it will take more then a day to get a handle on MTW.

STW shines through in being complex (not enough in trade) but easy enough to learn, while taking a while to master the game.

Even in STW it is an economic battle at the start. When I get the report that I am the richest clan I normally will start again unless fighting a far superior force, because I know once I am ahead economically there is not much the AI can do.

[This message has been edited by Papewaio (edited 06-21-2002).]

[theforce]

Attack against all the clans at the same time and it shall be challenging. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/tongue.gif

------------------
I cannot return l presume so l will keep my name among those who are dead by bows!

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

Papewaio I was very much the same - once you had the koku advantage it was really just a matter of time and not messing up.

As i've said over at .com I didn't get to fully explore trade but I did get a very strong impression that trade is going to be very important, probably for every faction and definately for some (like the english who have poor lands).

I think that sea power - or at least open trade routes will be very influential - i didn't get to try it but because you can blockade an entire trade route by just occupying one or two strategic seas that even once a faction has the economic power there is still an effective way to cripple them (or at least slow 'em down).

As i say - i didn't get to try this out but its definately one of the available tactics.

IN retrospect I wish i'd asked more about trade but was having too much fun doing battles and seiges.

ah well - next time.

[Nelson]

I'm glad to hear that the strategic options will be more varied than in Shogun. It's the strategic quandries, problems and challenges that can make the game unique and replayable. The battles, despite being great fun in their own right, are pointless except in the context of a campaign, where too many pyrrhic victories can lose wars.

[Hirosito]

yeah i'm glad as well that there is abit moer going on apart from battles. some will obviously not like that tho.

------------------
Hirosito Mori

Gentile or Jew
O you who turn the wheel and look to windward,
Consider Phlebas, who was once handsome and tall as you.

[Wavesword]

They can play endless Custom battles and make up average kills per minute tables then.

[Sjakihata]

Theforce..

You must consider that Japans population from 1530-1600 were approx. 19 mio.

Whereas in Eurpoe all the nations together would be around 21 mio. http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif

So the Japanese still had many more men to make soldiers (samurai) !

I could imagine that in the time when medieval TW begins, the nations man power would be even lower due to a lot of things, you know that your self, wont list http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/wink.gif

[Darkmoor_Dragon]

In the early period its a challenge just to hold onto what you start with, let alone go campaigning.

[Hirosito]

good