Buying a PC

[Rhyfelwyr]

My old PC just can't handle the latest games anymore, so I'm looking to upgrade to a PC that will tide me over for a good few years. I play a lot of M2TW and other games such as C&C Generals, and I might try the multiplayer, so I need a pretty good machine. These are the main ones I've been looking at so far:

http://www.pcworld.co.uk/martprd/product/seo/019066

or

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=FS-030-OK

The Overclockers PC would appear to be slightly better, however I though it might be safer sticking with a better known brand like PC World. As gamers yourselves, what are your opinions on this?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

The Overclockers PC would appear to be slightly better, however I though it might be safer sticking with a better known brand like PC World. As fellow gamers, what are your opinions on this?

Except for the CPU. Dont you have any local shops near you?

[Slug For A Butt]

Use your own judgement, but I wouldn't even consider buying a PC World PC.
It will probably be unbranded RAM made up from 4 * 512mb sticks.
You don't know the specs of the hard drive.
I only know from other peoples experiences that I wouldn't buy a gaming/upgradeable PC from PC World.
Source the parts you want from ebuyer, it will be cheaper.

EDIT: Gawain, I get the impression it's not the same here in the UK. We don't seem to have the same options as you in the US. Really, we are stuck with getting ripped off by the big dealers or build it yourself. Mind you, I think my 8 year old neice could build a PC these days.

[Husar]

Wow, there are at least three small PC stores in the inner city alone here, can't believe those don't exist in the UK, maybe you just gotta look closer.
And of those two options given, I won't vote for either. The PC World PC has a graphicscard that's not even good enough for current games and the overclockers PC has a slower CPU. I'd say save your money for now, wait a bit, have a look at the options you have and then you can get a PC that will really last you for some years. You'll also have the money needed for it by that time.~;)

[caravel]

Just avoid PC World, they're pants.

[Stuperman]

the overclockers PC is WAY over video carded and has a slowish CPU. Crossfire and SLI are kinda a waste of money IMO, they don;t work with many games, and restrict your upgrade path. A single X1950XT or 8800GTS 320MB card would be a better choise IMO

and the PC worlds one has a nice CPU (4 meg of cache!) but has an ATI card that ends with SE, run away, run far and fast. The x1650pro and XT are decent, but (with ATI at least) SE means sexual edition, cause you're getting ******!.

SE cards usually only have a 64-bit wide memory path (the pro and XT have 128-bit wide paths, giving twice the bandwidth at the same Mhz.)

(All-asterisk where other than Backroom please, also more careful expressions would fit in better - LEN)

edit: Sorry! read the rules after posting this, thanks for being leinient(sp)

[Husar]

(4 meg of cache!)
Did I ever mention that from what I read, the cache doesn't really make a big difference? Maybe a few percent and maybe in certain applications but concerning gaming, an oveclocked 4200 or so can get to around 95% the performance of an 6800 at the same clockspeed. While I don't overclock myself(at least until now), I don't think spending a lot of money for more cache is a good idea.

[Stuperman]

Did I ever mention that from what I read, the cache doesn't really make a big difference? Maybe a few percent and maybe in certain applications but concerning gaming, an oveclocked 4200 or so can get to around 95% the performance of an 6800 at the same clockspeed. While I don't overclock myself(at least until now), I don't think spending a lot of money for more cache is a good idea.


As you said, the performance relitive to cache varies greatly by application and at the same price as a 6400 (with only 2 meg of cache) why not?

I'd have to be a very OC'd 4200+ to equal a 6800, my s939 4600+ is at 2.6 and is about the same as E6300

[Rhyfelwyr]

Well where I'm living here in the UK, the nearest PC shop is PC World, away in the city. There's also a Curry's there, if thats any better.

I don't like the idea of building my own PC, basically because I would not be capable of doing that, but also because last time I bought parts individually to upgrade my old PC, they wrecked it, and now I can't play any games. Thats why I now just want to buy a brand new PC.

There is another alternative, it has just the single ATI graphics card:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=FS-033-OK

Would this be better than the other Overclockers PC?

[Stuperman]

yes, a single X1950xt has more useable performance than crossfired X1950Pro's A very very good CPU, over all it's a ver nice system.

[Gandalf the White]

I know way too much about computers. The PC World PC will not allow you to overclock most certainly as it uses OEM motherboards. However the overclockers PC can be beefed up very fast to around at least 2.7Ghz. The case on the OC PC is very good and I have seen it before cooling will not be an issue although the Compaq may have some cooling problems. The graphics card on the Compaq isnt great despite the high memory it is not DX10. The third PC is good but the power supply is low and the case is not as good as the OC PC 2nd so it limits upgrades which you may want to have. My advice would be get a DX10 system with HD Radeon 2900XT or nVidia GeForce 8800 Ultra or GTX they can be brought for around the same price and are for the future so will work with new games. Core 2 Duos are coming down in price very quickly so keep checking the price may decrease due to this as the cheapest Core 2 Duo is around £60. AMD are phasing out the Athlon 64 so be careful as Intel are releasing 6 new proccessors this year with AMD doing 4.
Good Luck! PM if you are still stuck

[Stuperman]

@gandalf

I'd say they all have OEM bios's and therefore can't be OC'd

I'd hold off on a DX 10 card right now myself, remeber the first DX9 cards (ATI Raedon 9700 Pro)? they can't really run fully DX 9 games, I imaging the same applies with the 2900/8800.

the PSU is a bit small, but I've seen a 500W unit run a Kenstfield @ 3hgz and a single 8800GTX, so I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Gandalf the White]

It may be OEM but can be overclocked. The new DX10 cards can run full DX 10 as a patch is being made for FSX and DX10 demos have been released google it. ALthough your right about the 9700 but hopefully we have moved on from GeForce FX series as well they wrere meant to be DX9 but you had to change to DX8 sometimes!

[Stuperman]

Sorry, mabe I should have been more clear, There is no technical that a 9700 couldn't run a fully DX 9 game, it's just so old and slow i.e. Supreme Ccomander, or Stalker would be slide shows.

[Gandalf the White]

Yes I agree defintely. Its just I would like a system to last a long time and DX10 is just around the corner.

[Rhyfelwyr]

So would the Titan Gamer Extreme's I linked in the posts not run these DX10 games?

[Husar]

I'd have to be a very OC'd 4200+ to equal a 6800, my s939 4600+ is at 2.6 and is about the same as E6300
I actually meant one of those slower Core2Duos, it's the E4300 and E4400, I think I wanted to write 4400 anyway, my mistake.

[Stuperman]

I actually meant one of those slower Core2Duos, it's the E4300 and E4400, I think I wanted to write 4400 anyway, my mistake.

Yeah, I just bought a E4300 2 days ago (2 gigs of PC2-5400 was $70 Cnd) I'm really hoping that it OC's well. I'd love to see 3ghz, but we'll have to see.

I'm kinda kicking myself cause the pentium E2140 and E2160 just came out, they are C2D's with only 1meg of cache, and are CHEAP!!

@Caledonian Rhyfelwyr

No, the only DX10 video cards on the market are the Nvidia Geforce 8X00 series and the ATI Radeon HD2X00 series.

That being said, the X1950XT is still a very, very fast card, and should do for a couple of years at least, and there are only a handful of DX 10 games around. By the time it's worth getting a DX 10 card cause of the games, the price/performance ratio for DX10 cards will be much better. Like how the 6x00 series from Nvidia and Xx00 series form ATI were much better value than the 5x00 and 9x00 series.


A list of confirmed DX 10 games: http://www.novatek.com.au/news/confirmed-dx-10-games.html (there's about 8, I didn't count)

DX10 overview: http://enthusiast.hardocp.com/article.html?art=MTA0NSwxLCxoZW50aHVzaWFzdA==

[Gandalf the White]

Dx10 does look good so I would either wait for a few months for new hardware or go DX10 now.

[Stuperman]

DX 10 on windows XP: http://alkyproject.blogspot.com/
http://www.fallingleafsystems.com/

[Rhyfelwyr]

Do you guys think its likely the next TW game will need DX10 to run? Also does M2TW run smoothly on Vista?

[Bob the Insane]

Last prebuilt machine I picked up (was for my inlaws) I got from Scan:

http://www.scan.co.uk/

Decent price and very well put together (quality parts and cables, very neat inside, no extra manufacture's software)...

But my personally recomendation, you can't beat a self build (well you can if you have unlimited funds)...


Do you guys think its likely the next TW game will need DX10 to run? Also does M2TW run smoothly on Vista?

I run it on Vista (ulitmate, 32bit) and it works just fine...

[Husar]

Do you guys think its likely the next TW game will need DX10 to run? Also does M2TW run smoothly on Vista?
No, a CA dev once posted here somewhere(don't remember which thread) and said that they won't move to DX10 with the next game. Maybe someone can find the threadm it's 5am here...
And Medieval 2 runs fine on my Vista Business 64bit.:2thumbsup:

[LeftEyeNine]

Stuperman, if you ever try your o/c'ing, please share your experiences with that CPU.

Enjoy your new rig. :bow:

[Rhyfelwyr]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm glad you mentioned the DX10 issue. I'm looking for my PC to last me a good few years. The current one I have is:

Intel Pentium 4 Processor 515
256MB DDR (I upgrades to 512)
120GB Hard Drive
Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 900 (upgraded to a GeForce 7900 but caused crashes sometimes)

This computer has lasted me 2 years. It was my first PC, so I didn't really know what was required at the time considering I play games like M2TW and mods like EB.

My budget for the new PC was set at a limit of £1,000. However, if going up to a DX10 compatible card will make the machine last longer, I'd be willing to go £50 over budget. What are your guys opinions on this machine, with a DX10 graphics card:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=FS-043-OK&groupid=43&catid=781&subcat=

[Gandalf the White]

Try Vadim Computers as its good. I think that PC is very good for what you want; ask for 64-Bit Vista as new apps may require it later.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Will the 64-bit Vista cost much more?

[Stuperman]

that Ultimate 8800GTS is a very very nice computer. I'd have no problems running any game out there right now, and would last a while.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Yeah I've decided to go for the Ultima 8800GTS. Thanks again for the advice on the DX10 graphics card, may well save me a lot of trouble upgrading in the future.:2thumbsup:

[caravel]

Well where I'm living here in the UK, the nearest PC shop is PC World, away in the city. There's also a Curry's there, if thats any better.
PC World, Curry's, Dixons, The Link and some others are all the same company.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

that Ultimate 8800GTS is a very very nice computer. I'd have no problems running any game out there right now, and would last a while.

What the hell is that. Sounds like an Nvidea graphics card to me,

Unless you mean this bad mothers

Anglian Internet Computers (http://test.anglianinternet.co.uk/sections/950)
http://test.anglianinternet.co.uk/images/?file=p180b.jpg
Top of the line


ULTIMATE "BORG" QUAD CORE DUAL 8800GTX GAMER
ULTIMATE BORG REPUBLIC OF GAMERS
QUAD CORE SYSTEM
ANTEC P180B BLACK HIGH QUALITY CASE
TAGAN 1100WATT TURBOJET PSU
INTEL QUAD CORE QX6700 4MB CACHE
ASUS STRIKER EXTREME MOTHERBOARD
2X ASUS 768MB 8800GTX PCX IN SLI CONFIGURATION
500GB SAMSUNG 16MB SATAII HARD DRIVE
4GB OCZ DDR2 800 (4 X 1GB DDR2 800 RAM)
SAMSUNG SATA 18X DVDRW
VISTA ULTIMATE
£2675 INC VAT ULTIMATE
£2,675.00 inc VAT
£2,276.60 exc VAT

Bottom of the line. Damn Id be happy with this


ULTIMATE "DOMINION" DUO CORE DUAL 8800GTS GAMER
ULTIMATE DOMINION
REPUBLIC OF GAMERS
DUO CORE SYSTEM
ANTEC P180B BLACK HIGH QUALITY CASE
TAGAN 1100WATT TURBOJET PSU
INTEL DUO CORE E6700 4MB CACHE
ASUS COMMANDO MOTHERBOARD
2X ASUS 320MB 8800GTS PCX IN SLI CONFIGURATION
500GB SAMSUNG 16MB SATAII HARD DRIVE
2GB OCZ DDR2 800 (2 X 1GB DDR2 800 RAM)
SAMSUNG SATA 18X DVDRW
VISTA ULTIMATE
£1899 INC VAT
ULTIMATE
£1,899.00 inc VAT
£1,616.17 exc VAT

[Rhyfelwyr]

You don't think I've made a good choice then?

EDIT: Also, should the Ultima 8800GTS be compatible with my hp keyboard, monitor and mouse?

[Gawain of Orkeny]

You don't think I've made a good choice then?

I dont know what it is. Again that sounds like a graphics card not a pc.

[Stuperman]

My budget for the new PC was set at a limit of £1,000. However, if going up to a DX10 compatible card will make the machine last longer, I'd be willing to go £50 over budget. What are your guys opinions on this machine, with a DX10 graphics card:

http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=FS-043-OK&groupid=43&catid=781&subcat=


@ Gawain of Orkeny

This is from the first page of this thread, the computer is callet Ultimate (or Ultima) 8800 because it has an 8800GTS.

It's great.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Still wondering...


Also, should the Ultima 8800GTS be compatible with my hp keyboard, monitor and mouse?

[Stuperman]

Yes, they all should be ps2 or usb, shouldn;t be any problems at all.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Thanks again for all the help, going to order it tomorrow...

[Gawain of Orkeny]

This is from the first page of this thread, the computer is callet Ultimate (or Ultima) 8800 because it has an 8800GTS.

It's great.

Its good but it certainly is not great no offense. Not with an AMD cpu. He surely will have np playing MTW2 however.

[Rhyfelwyr]

Thanks for the advice guys. I'm glad you mentioned the DX10 issue. I'm looking for my PC to last me a good few years. The current one I have is:

Intel Pentium 4 Processor 515
256MB DDR (I upgrades to 512)
120GB Hard Drive
Intel Graphics Media Accelerator 900 (upgraded to a GeForce 7900 but caused crashes sometimes)

This computer has lasted me 2 years. It was my first PC, so I didn't really know what was required at the time considering I play games like M2TW and mods like EB.

Its absolutedly amazing compared to that anyway...

[Stuperman]

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.aspx?i=2933&p=8

it shouldn't do too bad.

[Gawain of Orkeny]

it shouldn't do too bad.

It should do very well but again Its very good but not great. I was suprised I must admit at the increase in performance AMD gained by raising the clock speed. But this mother is a power consumer and hot.

Heres a more in depth comparison and we are not using the top of the intel line here either.

LINK (http://techreport.com/reviews/2007q1/athlon64-x2-6000/index.x?pg=1)



Conclusions
AMD's two old-school tricks, the price cut and the clock speed bump, have combined to give the Athlon 64 X2 6000+ a pretty good value proposition. Performance-wise, the X2 6000+ is slower overall than the Core 2 Duo E6700, but not by much. That may be a surprising outcome to those accustomed to seeing Core 2 Duo processors convincingly trounce the competition, but these two architectures were never that different in terms of clock-for-clock performance. It stands to reason that a 3GHz Athlon 64 X2 could nearly pull even with a Core 2 Duo at 2.66GHz. The X2 6000+ is also about 70 bucks cheaper than the E6700, making it a pretty sweet deal in the grand scheme of things. Of course, as always, there are better deals to be had at lower price points than this one, but the X2 6000+ offers a compelling alternative to the E6700.

That said, there's a reason the old-school clock speed bump has become much less fashionable of late, and the power consumption numbers for the X2 6000+ are a testament to it. Power draw rises proportionately with clock frequency and with the square of core voltage. Those power curves tend to get hairy at the higher clock frequencies possible with CPUs made on a given fab process. That's why the X2 6000+ has a 125W thermal/power rating, while the X2 5600+ needs only 89W to run at 2.8GHz. Both are 90nm chips. (AMD has made some progress on this front, incidentally; the Athlon 64 FX-62 was also a 2.8GHz part, but had a 125W rating. And all of AMD's 65nm CPUs to date have a rating of 65W or less. The progress at 90nm probably helped open up the possibility of 3GHz parts like the X2 6000+.)

If you decide to save the 70 bucks to get yourself an X2 6000+ rather than an E6700, you will pay for it with much higher peak power consumption. That may translate into higher system temperatures, more fan noise, or (though we haven't had time to test it) less overclocking headroom. Some folks, I expect, will be willing to take that bargain.

The X2 6000+ also signals a broader realignment in the Athlon 64 X2 lineup, with price cuts across the board that make AMD's offerings more attractive as alternatives to the Core 2 Duo. Some of those Athlon 64 X2s, at lower clock speeds, have power consumption ratings of 65W or less. We'll soon expand our Windows Vista x64 performance and power results to encompass more price points, so stay tuned.

http://techreport.com/reviews/2007q1/cpus/oblivion.gif