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Lemur
06-05-2007, 01:43
First off, let me declare that marriage is muy importante. Single parenthood is for the birds, and divorce is a nuclear option that should only be taken under extreme circumstances. And since we're sliding into an election cycle, we're hearing more and more politicos burbling about "family" and "marriage," usually with zero content. When a politician actually does have something of substance to say about marriage, it's almost always about how gays are a danger to it, in much the same way that marriage is threatened by landsharks and vicious pixie magic.

The biggest purveyor of the gay marriage threat meme is Focus on the Family. I found this interview (http://www.powells.com/authors/wallis.html), and I wanted to share, just to give you an idea of how hypocritical they are:


I had this conversation with Focus on the Family, and I said I agree with you that family breakdown is a huge crisis, a serious crisis. And I don't think the Left talks about that enough. My neighborhood is eighty percent single parent families. You can't overcome poverty with that, with eighty percent single parent families. But how do we reweave the bonds of marriage, family, extended family, and community, to put our arms around the kids? And it's not just in poor neighborhoods. Kids are falling through the cracks of fractured family in all classes and neighborhoods. So I said to them, I want to rebuild family life and relationships, but explain to me how gay and lesbian people are the ones responsible for all that? which is what their fund-raising strategy suggests. And after about an hour and a half they conceded the point. They said, Okay Jim, we concede that family breakdown is caused much more by heterosexual dysfunction than by homosexuals. But then they said, We can't vouch for our fundraising department, which says a lot, I think.

Translation (as if you need one): waving the red flag of OMG Noes! Gayz marry yuck! gets the base fired up and sending in donations. FOTF knows damn well that it's a joke, but it nets them money.

On a much more useful note, The Economist (http://www.economist.com/world/na/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9218127) published a nice, big article last week about marriage in America, and it's sufficiently good and well-thought-out that I'm going to share it with you entire. (Also, if you're not a subscriber, I'm not sure you get to see it.) I know it's long, but it's worth it. A couple of useful statistics:


https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/CFB217.gif https://img.photobucket.com/albums/v489/Lemurmania/CFB966.gif

The frayed knot

May 24th 2007 | MORGANTOWN, WEST VIRGINIA

As the divorce rate plummets at the top of American society and rises at the bottom, the widening “marriage gap” is breeding inequality

THE students at West Virginia University don't want you to think they take life too seriously. It is the third-best “party school” in America, according to the Princeton Review's annual ranking of such things, and comes a creditable fifth in the “lots of beer” category. Booze sometimes causes students' clothes to fall off. Those who wake up garmentless after a hook-up endure the “walk of shame”, trudging back to their own dormitories in an obviously borrowed football shirt, stirring up gossip with every step.

And yet, for all their protestations of wildness, the students are a serious-minded bunch. Yes, they have pre-marital sex. “I don't see how it's a bad thing,” says Ashley, an 18-year-old studying criminology. But they are careful not to fall pregnant. It would be “a major disaster,” says Ashley. She has plans. She wants to finish her degree, go to the FBI academy in Virginia and then start a career as a “profiler” helping to catch dangerous criminals. She wants to get married when she is about 24, and have children perhaps at 26. She thinks having children out of wedlock is not wrong, but unwise.

A few blocks away, in a soup kitchen attached to a church, another 18-year-old balances a baby on her knee. Laura has a less planned approach to parenthood. “It just happened,” she says. The father and she were “never really together”, merely “friends with benefits, I guess”. He is now gone. “I didn't want to put up with his stuff,” she says. “Drugs and stuff,” she adds, by way of explanation.

There is a widening gulf between how the best- and least-educated Americans approach marriage and child-rearing. Among the elite (excluding film stars), the nuclear family is holding up quite well. Only 4% of the children of mothers with college degrees are born out of wedlock. And the divorce rate among college-educated women has plummeted. Of those who first tied the knot between 1975 and 1979, 29% were divorced within ten years. Among those who first married between 1990 and 1994, only 16.5% were.

At the bottom of the education scale, the picture is reversed. Among high-school dropouts, the divorce rate rose from 38% for those who first married in 1975-79 to 46% for those who first married in 1990-94. Among those with a high school diploma but no college, it rose from 35% to 38%. And these figures are only part of the story. Many mothers avoid divorce by never marrying in the first place. The out-of-wedlock birth rate among women who drop out of high school is 15%. Among African-Americans, it is a staggering 67%.

Does this matter? Kay Hymowitz of the Manhattan Institute, a conservative think-tank, says it does. In her book “Marriage and Caste in America”, she argues that the “marriage gap” is the chief source of the country's notorious and widening inequality. Middle-class kids growing up with two biological parents are “socialised for success”. They do better in school, get better jobs and go on to create intact families of their own. Children of single parents or broken families do worse in school, get worse jobs and go on to have children out of wedlock. This makes it more likely that those born near the top or the bottom will stay where they started. America, argues Ms Hymowitz, is turning into “a nation of separate and unequal families”.

A large majority—92%—of children whose families make more than $75,000 a year live with two parents (including step-parents). At the bottom of the income scale—families earning less than $15,000—only 20% of children live with two parents. One might imagine that this gap arises simply because two breadwinners earn more than one. A single mother would have to be unusually talented and diligent to make as much as $75,000 while also raising children on her own. And it is impossible in America for two full-time, year-round workers to earn less than $15,000 between them, unless they are (illegally) paid less than the minimum wage.

But there is more to it than this. Marriage itself is “a wealth-generating institution”, according to Barbara Dafoe Whitehead and David Popenoe, who run the National Marriage Project at Rutgers University. Those who marry “till death do us part” end up, on average, four times richer than those who never marry. This is partly because marriage provides economies of scale—two can live more cheaply than one—and because the kind of people who make more money—those who work hard, plan for the future and have good interpersonal skills—are more likely to marry and stay married. But it is also because marriage affects the way people behave.

American men, once married, tend to take their responsibilities seriously. Avner Ahituv of the University of Haifa and Robert Lerman of the Urban Institute found that “entering marriage raises hours worked quickly and substantially.” Married men drink less, take fewer drugs and work harder, earning between 10% and 40% more than single men with similar schooling and job histories. And marriage encourages both spouses to save and invest more for the future. Each partner provides the other with a form of insurance against falling sick or losing a job.

Marriage also encourages the division of labour. Ms Dafoe Whitehead and Mr Popenoe put it like this: “Working as a couple, individuals can develop those skills in which they excel, leaving others to their partner.” Mum handles the tax returns while Dad fixes the car. Or vice versa. As Adam Smith observed two centuries ago, when you specialise, you get better at what you do, and you produce more.

Perhaps the most convincing work showing that marriage is more than just a piece of paper was done by Mr Lerman of the Urban Institute. In “Married and Unmarried Parenthood and Economic Wellbeing”, he addressed the “selection effect”—the question of whether married-couple families do better because of the kind of people who marry, or because of something about marriage itself.

Using data from a big annual survey, he looked at all the women who had become pregnant outside marriage. He estimated the likelihood that they would marry, using dozens of variables known to predict this, such as race, income and family background. He then found out whether they did in fact marry, and what followed.

His results were striking. Mothers who married ended up much better off than mothers with the same disadvantages who did not. So did their children. Among those in the bottom quartile of “propensity to marry”, those who married before the baby was six months old were only half as likely to be raising their children in poverty five years later as those who did not (33% to 60%).

Changes in family structure thus have a large impact on the economy. One of the most-cited measures of prosperity, household income, is misleading over time because household sizes have changed. In 1947, the average household contained 3.6 people. By 2006, that number had dwindled to 2.6. This partly reflects two happy facts: more young singles can afford to flee the nest and their parents are living longer after they go. But it also reflects the dismal trend towards family break-up. A study by Adam Thomas and Isabel Sawhill concluded that if the black family had not collapsed between 1960 and 1998, the black child-poverty rate would have been 28.4% rather than 45.6%. And if white families had stayed like they were in 1960, the white child poverty rate would have been 11.4% rather than 15.4%.

Children of the sexual revolution

Since the 1960s, the easy availability of reliable contraception has helped to spur a revolution in sexual mores. As opportunities for women opened up in the workplace, giving them an incentive to delay child-bearing, a little pill let them do just that without sacrificing sex. At the same time, better job opportunities for women changed the balance of power within marriage. Wives became less economically dependent on their husbands, so they found it easier to walk out of unhappy or abusive relationships.

As the sexual revolution gathered steam, the idea that a nuclear family was the only acceptable environment in which to raise a child crumbled. The social stigma around single motherhood, which was intense before the 1960s, has faded. But attitudes still vary by class.

College-educated women typically see single motherhood as a distant second-best to marriage. If they have babies out of wedlock, it is usually because they have not yet got round to marrying the man they are living with. Or because, finding themselves single and nearly 40, they decide they cannot wait for Mr Right and so seek a sperm donor. By contrast, many of America's least-educated women live in neighbourhoods where single motherhood is the norm. And when they have babies outside marriage, they are typically younger than their middle-class counterparts, in less stable relationships and less prepared for what will follow.

Consider the home life of Lisa Ballard, a 26-year-old single mother in Morgantown. She strains every nerve to give her children the best upbringing she can, while also looking for a job. Her four-year-old son Alex loves the Dr Seuss book “Green Eggs and Ham”, so she reads it to him, and once put green food colouring in his breakfast eggs, which delighted him. But the sheer complexity of her domestic arrangements makes life “very challenging”, she says.

She has four children by three different men. Two were planned, two were not. Two live with her; she has shared custody of one and no custody of another. One of the fathers was “a butthole” who hit her, she says, and is no longer around. The other two are “good fathers”, in that they have steady jobs, pay maintenance, make their children laugh and do not spank them. But none of them still lives with her.

Miss Ballard now thinks that having children before getting married was “not a good idea”. She says she would like to get married some day, though she finds the idea of long-term commitment scary. “You've got to definitely make sure it's the person you want to grow old with. You know, sitting on rocking chairs giggling at the comics. I want to find the right one. I ask God: ‘What does he look like? Can you give me a little hint?’”

If she does find and wed the man of her dreams, Miss Ballard will encounter a problem. She has never seen her own father. Having never observed a stable marriage close-up, she will have to guess how to make one work. By contrast, Ashley, the criminology student at the nearby university, has never seen a divorce in her family. This makes it much more likely that, when the time is right, she will get married and stay that way. And that, in turn, makes it more likely that her children will follow her to college.

Most children in single-parent homes “grow up without serious problems”, writes Mary Parke of the Centre for Law and Social Policy, a think-tank in Washington, DC. But they are more than five times as likely to be poor as those who live with two biological parents (26% against 5%). Children who do not live with both biological parents are also roughly twice as likely to drop out of high school and to have behavioural or psychological problems. Even after controlling for race, family background and IQ, children of single mothers do worse in school than children of married parents, says Ms Hymowitz.

Children whose father was never around face the toughest problems. For those whose parents split up, the picture is more nuanced. If parents detest each other and quarrel bitterly, their kids may actually benefit from a divorce. Paul Amato of Penn State University has found that 40% of American divorces leave the children better (or at least, no worse) off than the turbulent marriages that preceded them. In other cases, however, what is good for the parents may well harm the children. And two parents are likely to be better at child-rearing because they can devote more time and energy to it than one can.

Research also suggests that middle- and working-class parents approach child-rearing in different ways. Professional parents shuttle their kids from choir practice to baseball camp and check that they are doing their homework. They also talk to them more. One study found that a college professor's kids hear an average of 2,150 words per hour in the first years of life. Working-class children hear 1,250 and those in welfare families only 620.

Co-habiting couples have the same number of hands as married couples, so they ought to make equally good parents. Many do, but on average the children of co-habiting couples do worse by nearly every measure. One reason is that such relationships are less stable than marriages. In America, they last about two years on average. About half end in marriage. But those who live together before marriage are more likely to divorce.

Many people will find this surprising. A survey of teenagers by the University of Michigan found that 64% of boys and 57% of girls agreed that “it is usually a good idea for a couple to live together before getting married in order to find out whether they really get along.” Research suggests otherwise. Two-thirds of American children born to co-habiting parents who later marry will see their parents split up by the time they are ten. Those born within wedlock face only half that risk.

The likeliest explanation is inertia, says Scott Stanley of the Centre for Marital and Family Studies at the University of Denver, Colorado. Couples start living together because it is more fun (and cheaper) than living apart. One partner may see this as a prelude to marriage. The other—usually the man—may see it as something more temporary. Since no explicit commitment is made, it is easier to drift into living together than it is to drift into a marriage. But once a couple is living together, it is harder to split up than if they were merely dating. So “many of these men end up married to women they would not have married if they hadn't been living together,” says Mr Stanley, co-author of a paper called “Sliding versus deciding”.

A little help from the government

Most American politicians say they support marriage, but few do much about it, except perhaps to sound off about the illusory threat to it from gays. The public are divided. Few want to go back to the attitudes or divorce laws of the 1950s. But many at both ends of the political spectrum lament the fragility of American families and would change, at least, the way the tax code penalises many couples who marry. And some politicians want the state to draw attention to benefits of marriage, as it does to the perils of smoking. George Bush is one.

Since last year, his administration has been handing out grants to promote healthy marriages. This is a less preachy enterprise than you might expect. Sidonie Squier, the bureaucrat in charge, does not argue that divorce is wrong: “If you're being abused, you should get out.” Nor does she think the government should take a view on whether people should have pre-marital sex.

Her budget for boosting marriage is tiny: $100m a year, or about what the Defence Department spends every two hours. Some of it funds research into what makes a relationship work well and whether outsiders can help. Most of the rest goes to groups that try to help couples get along better, some of which are religiously-inspired. The first 124 grants were disbursed only last September, so it is too early to say whether any of this will work. But certain approaches look hopeful.

One is “marriage education”. This is not the same as marriage therapy or counselling. Rather than waiting till a couple is in trouble and then having them sit down with a specialist to catalogue each other's faults, the administration favours offering relationship tips to large classes.

The army already does this. About 35,000 soldiers this year will get a 12-hour course on how to communicate better with their partners, and how to resolve disputes without throwing plates. It costs about $300 per family. Given that it costs $50,000 to recruit and train a rifleman, and that marital problems are a big reason why soldiers quit, you don't have to save many marriages for this to be cost-effective, says Peter Frederich, the chaplain in charge.

Several studies have shown that such courses do indeed help couples communicate better and quarrel less bitterly. As to whether they prevent divorce, a meta-analysis by Jason Carroll and William Doherty concluded that the jury was still out. The National Institutes of Health is paying for a five-year study of Mr Frederich's soldiers to shed further light on the issue.

Americans expect a lot from marriage. Whereas most Italians say the main purpose of marriage is to have children, 70% of Americans think it is something else. They want their spouse to make them happy. Some go further and assume that if they are not happy, it must be because they picked the wrong person. Sometimes that is true, sometimes not. There is no such thing as a perfectly compatible couple, argues Diane Sollee, director of smartmarriages.com, a pro-marriage group. Every couple has disputes, she says. What matters most is how they resolve them.

At the end of the day, says Ms Squier, the government's influence over the culture of marriage will be marginal. Messages from movies, peers and parents matter far more. But she does not see why, for example, the government's only contact with an unmarried father should be to demand that he pay child support. By not even mentioning marriage, the state is implying that no one expects him to stick around. Is that a helpful message?

Blodrast
06-05-2007, 02:41
Hmm, interesting stuff, Lemur, thank you for the read.
I found a couple of the studies results a bit convoluted, or maybe it's just me. But for the most part I thought it made sense.

Interestingly enough, me and my life experience (divorced) are pretty much the exact opposite of what the statistics show: both spouses lotsa edumacation, no divorces in the family, both parents still together, etc.

Not sure if I entirely agree with the correlation between one of the studies and my "feelings". I'm not disputing the studies, or their results, I don't have enough data for that - I'm just saying that to me, it looks and feels like things are different in the world I see around me. I'm referring to the correlation between single mothers and education... my impression is that a lot of women in North America aren't that crazy about having kids, or even getting married anymore. That has to do, I suppose, partially with feminist propaganda (sure, it has some good ideas, but for the most part it's fallen into the other extreme), some with the (positive) increasingly independence (financial, social) of women, and, another personal guess, some with the consumerist nature of the "western" society.
Dang it, I'll try to be a bit more coherent. What I mean is that to me it looks like on the contrary, women with more education are more likely to get a divorce - because they can. From all points of view: financially, socially (no more stigma), etc.

Kinda the same goes for single mothers. The right-hand side graph shows that women with higher education are less likely to be single mothers. I look at it this way (and it seems to me that the _causality_ relation on the wasn't made clear enough): the more educated women are, the more likely they are to want to be independent, and not "tied down" in a marriage or with a kid (that kills their career hopes, etc, etc). Hence, they try harder to avoid having children at all (more paranoid/strict birth control, abortions, focusing on other aspects of life (i.e., career), rather than on relationships, etc). Consequently, there are fewer single mothers among them.
One could still determine a causality relation between the two, I suppose, but to me it feels like it's of a more indirect nature than the article (and/or the graph) seems to suggest.

Aaaanyway, enough ranting, I oughtta get some work done so I can sucker one of 'em high-achiever sugar-mamas into having my babies. :scastle3:

Don Corleone
06-05-2007, 02:56
This is one of those funny issues for me. The more time I spend married, the more I realize that civil unions and gay marriage poses much less a threat to traditional marriage than I ever thought. Frankly, I think soap operas and strip clubs are much more dangerous.

AntiochusIII
06-05-2007, 02:59
Interesting read, Lemur, and interesting opinion, Blodrast. I find myself in some level of agreement with you that educated women may want more independence and less marriage -- or perhaps American culture has not moved as far as the movies show just yet?

Of single motherhood I agree with the article that it tends to be a problem. It can be an educated choice or a problem; more often than not it is the latter. Problematic families can also create problematic children; where would 16-years-old Ashley go if she can't talk to mom and dad (or moms, or dads) about her boyfriend/sex problems? Her only parent is mom and she works all the time just to scrape things by. Her inner city school also sucks and filled to the brim with drugs, gangs, and assorted generic problems. Unless she has a superhuman will to succeed, a passion of admirable quality, or a dose of overwhelming common sense, or just a good internet connection to vent her problems on 2chan, she will face at least some problems she can't solve.

Unfortunately I'm still too young to care much about the topic of the article in general and hope to live to be too old to care. If I'm ever to have children I agree entirely that it should be done in a stable and, if not rainbow-sunshine happy then at least content, environment. A family, married or not. But so far I don't think I have either the (capability of) responsibility or the desire.

The little snippet from the article about the illusory threat from gays is also a nice shot against bigoted faggery similarities to existing ones] America. :yes: If stable families as opposite to unstable families (leave some space for us singles) is good for society, then why the hell are we blocking one of its tools?

Kuni
06-05-2007, 04:09
As seen from outside the western hemisphere, the statistics give me a glimpse of the american divorce rate in different albeit better light.

I agree with Blograst that the findings The Economist has reached are counter-intuitive. With all the publicized celebrity and elite divorces, one would think it is also the case among the higher educated.

I did not know that the divorce rate was bloated by the less educated!

About the threat that gays pose to marriage: Most bigots I know just don't want homosexual union to be called marriage, because something in their gut feels it isn't right - a very clear rewording of "OMG Noes! Gayz marry yuck!", and plays to emotion rather than logic or fairness. They don't claim gays pose a threat to the family, as it is an indefensible stretch to say so.

Del Arroyo
06-05-2007, 04:48
Marriages are supposed to produce children. Sensible people don't want marriage to include homosexuals for the same reason that professors will not allow the word "ain't" to be used in term papers.

Lemur
06-05-2007, 05:25
Marriages are supposed to produce children. Sensible people don't want marriage to include homosexuals for the same reason that professors will not allow the word "ain't" to be used in term papers.
There's a couple that lives less than a block from casa de lemur. For whatever reason, they have produced no children. Instead, they have adopted twin girls from an irresponsible crack mama. By your overly narrow definition, they should not be married, and they should not be raising children.

Obviously I disagree. The girls are really cute, and they play nicely with my little lemurs.

-edit-

Just to be crystal clear, this is a male-female couple. I realized after I posted that I left myself open to misunderstanding ...

Papewaio
06-05-2007, 06:20
Surely this thread proves that the 'efficacy of torture' has been tested until death do us part...:inquisitive: :laugh4:

Blodrast
06-05-2007, 07:23
So, Lemur, what do YOU think about the article, and some of the ideas it raises ? I mean, you posted it, so you must have an opinion about the trends it shows and the correlations it points out ?

InsaneApache
06-05-2007, 11:53
Surely this thread proves that the 'efficacy of torture' has been tested until death do us part...:inquisitive: :laugh4:

Amen to that Pape, amen to that. :sweatdrop:

Lemur
06-05-2007, 16:40
So, Lemur, what do YOU think about the article, and some of the ideas it raises ? I mean, you posted it, so you must have an opinion about the trends it shows and the correlations it points out ?
I think it's darn interesting, is what I think. I try not to advertise being an Economist subscriber, 'cause I don't want the other kids to take my milk money and rough me up on the playground, but it really is a hell of a magazine.

I think a stable marriage is an economic boon. I think single parenthood sucks monkey legs, and should be avoided when possible. I think the family is the smallest and most fundamental unit of civilization, and should be treated rather more seriously than it is. I think marriage and stability should be encouraged, but never forced (that way madness lies). I think the right wing's long-standing focus on gay marriage is hypocritical and hilarious.

I mean, Blodrast, that article covers a lot of ground. It's long for a reason. I'm not even sure what you want me to respond to -- can you help a brother out?

Del Arroyo
06-05-2007, 18:27
There's a couple that lives less than a block from casa de lemur. For whatever reason, they have produced no children. Instead, they have adopted twin girls from an irresponsible crack mama. By your overly narrow definition, they should not be married, and they should not be raising children.

Obviously I disagree. The girls are really cute, and they play nicely with my little lemurs.

-edit-

Just to be crystal clear, this is a male-female couple. I realized after I posted that I left myself open to misunderstanding ...

Well, because they are a couple made up of one male and one female, assuming they are both fertile, they could produce children. The fact that they have not deviates from the ideal, but not to a large extent.

One of my older female cousins lives in a house with her female life partner and two adopted asian girls, who are a joy.

I'm not saying that gay couples are bad or that they will cause the downfall of family values. I do object to the inclusion of homosexuals in the institution of marriage. It is a minor sin, much like use of the word "ain't" in formal written communication.

Big King Sanctaphrax
06-05-2007, 18:51
This focus on marriage still irks me. Surely what people actually mean is that it's better for children to have two parents? I whole-heartedly agree with that, but it doesn't follow that the parents have to be married.

Don Corleone
06-05-2007, 19:11
Focus on the Family cynically plays up on people's fears in an effort to line their coffers? Shocked, shocked I tell you....

So if that's really the case, why'd they need to send that pastor from Colorado last Fall into 'deep therapy'?

Edit: Erh, Ted Haggard

Blodrast
06-05-2007, 19:32
I mean, Blodrast, that article covers a lot of ground. It's long for a reason. I'm not even sure what you want me to respond to -- can you help a brother out?

Well, don't take it THAT way - I don't "want" you to respond to anything, I was just curious about your opinion. For instance, let's leave aside the unfortunately cliched scenario of poor-uneducated-young-girl becomes pregnant and then a single mother. We're all aware of that.

But the article, and some of the graphs, seem to imply that by being more educated, single parenthood is likely to be avoided.

It's true, they don't come out and say that precisely, but I'd prefer them to be a bit more exact in what they DO imply. How should we interpret those graphs ?
Does it mean that girls who are more educated are smarter and do not become single mothers ? Does it mean that by being more educated they become a better "catch", so there'll be more suitors and therefore they're more likely to get married ? Does it mean that by being more educated they shift their focus on their career, and do not become mothers at all (and that's why the graph shows fewer single moms with higher education) ?

Also, on a different note, about the left-hand side graph. It shows that over years, the rate of divorces among "educated" couples has been decreasing.
Well, here we go again, them leaving us with saliva drooling down our chins, wondering if there's any causality between those two facts.
How about the OVERALL rate of divorces in the late nineties, compared with the late seventies ? If *that* increased, then sure enough, we'll probably see a increase in *most* (not all) of the individual rates based on the education of the spouses.
But is it clear that the education is THE factor that contributed to the decrease of divorce rates ?
How about relaxation of social norms, at all levels of society ?
How about shifting the values, where a single woman (with a career) is no longer considered an outcast, but on the contrary, she may be looked up to as an independent, determined, go-getter, etc ?
How about unfairness of divorces in the "western" society (i.e., their bias towards favouring the woman), thus making it a more attractive option ?
(Yes, I remember reading some stuff, maybe here, that claimed that men are still better off than women after divorces, but the details are vague, and I wasn't convinced, honestly. I am biased, of course, I have my preconceived ideas, but still.).

There, a bit more material for you to work with. ~D

Kommodus
06-05-2007, 21:23
This is one of those funny issues for me. The more time I spend married, the more I realize that civil unions and gay marriage poses much less a threat to traditional marriage than I ever thought. Frankly, I think soap operas and strip clubs are much more dangerous.

Here, here! :medievalcheers:


I think marriage and stability should be encouraged, but never forced (that way madness lies). I think the right wing's long-standing focus on gay marriage is hypocritical and hilarious.

It's interesting that you refer to the focus as "long-standing." By some measures it is, perhaps, yet I remember hearing many Focus on the Family radio broadcasts as a child that never mentioned the issue even once. IIRC they focused on more mundane, every-day family issues.

Basically, I think everyone knows (deep down) what the real threats to marriage and the family are (see DC's post above). The right wing's focus on homosexual marriage appears to me to be a relatively recent, knee-jerk reaction to the liberal campaign to have it legally recognized. It's a diversion (like most political hot-button issues) intended to keep us from addressing the real issues. I also think that many on the right are beginning to realize this.

Lemur
06-06-2007, 04:46
I'm not saying that gay couples are bad or that they will cause the downfall of family values. I do object to the inclusion of homosexuals in the institution of marriage.
Fair enough, but the reason you gave for objecting was that marriages should produce children. By which logic, infertile people should not marry. I don't think marriage can be so narrowly defined. What about couples who chose not to have any kids? Is their marriage invalid?

If two people want to take a shot at having the rest of their lives together, I say let 'em. I'm gonna get rich by being first to market with Gay Divorce Court TV.

This focus on marriage still irks me. Surely what people actually mean is that it's better for children to have two parents? I whole-heartedly agree with that, but it doesn't follow that the parents have to be married.
Yup, it's demonstrably better for kids to have two parents. More parents = division of labor = efficiencies = better odds for the kindelein. Certainly the parents don't have to be married, but marriage helps people stay together. There are more real consequences to walking out on your wife than there are on leaving your roommate with benefits. People generally think harder and more carefully about committing to marriage than they do when asking a sex buddy to move in.

When it comes to providing the most stable foundation possible for kids, marriage gives the best odds. Which is not to say that the individual can't give lie to the statistic.

It's interesting that you refer to the focus as "long-standing." By some measures it is, perhaps, yet I remember hearing many Focus on the Family radio broadcasts as a child that never mentioned the issue even once. IIRC they focused on more mundane, every-day family issues.
You're quite right, Focus on the Family used to be a very different organization, and it was built up by offering practical help with family issues. How it got changed into the political creature that it is now, I really don't know.

And you're also right that the reaction to the gay marriage movement was just that, a reaction. But it really has taken on a life of its own in the last ten years or so. By "longstanding," I meant a decade, which is not long in geological terms, but an eternity in politics and insect lives.

Which reminds me, I used an age calculator and found out I am the equivalent of a five-year-old dog. Woof.

Del Arroyo
06-06-2007, 19:17
What about couples who chose not to have any kids? Is their marriage invalid?

In many traditional cultures, yes. But I would not go so far. As I said before, if a couple would be biologically capable of producing children under ideal conditions, then their partnership in marriage is a reasonable proposition. For in a reasonable society, there is much which must be left to personal choice and to the will of God. We cannot make black and white out of a grey world.

doc_bean
06-07-2007, 16:52
This is one of those funny issues for me. The more time I spend married, the more I realize that civil unions and gay marriage poses much less a threat to traditional marriage than I ever thought. Frankly, I think soap operas and strip clubs are much more dangerous.

Very late to respond, but, living in a country that has gay marriage (and calls it marriage) I never noticed the collapse of society it would apparently cause. Even most former opponents think gay marriage is a non-issue now, a curiosity at most.

Now teh internets, especially chat boxes are a proven frequent cause of divorce.