View Full Version : Honour levels
I don't know if anyone else as noticed but in the MTW demo, units gain honour much quicker than in STW.
In one battle alone I had one unit gain 4 honour. In STW it was almost impossible to get a unit from H3 to H4 during a campaign.
For me this will make a significant difference to tatics and increase the likelyhood of AI gaining high honour units, as it did seem to like to fight in STW.
This will that there is significant reason to engage in battles to level your troops up in the early stages, along with raising the reputation of leaders/generals etc..
One thing I always wanted to see was a bit of random honour generation when units were produced to give variety, and increased chances of AI gaining high honour units.
If in the full game units gain honour as in demo then this certainly shouldn't be needed.
Sjakihata
06-23-2002, 16:51
Just to prove DrNos arguments further.
Once I was in a battle, fighting in the early era, so I had 3 ashi, 1 YS, and 2 SA.
My ally, imagawa, had his daimyo, 2 SA, and 1 ashi.
The enemy takeda, had his daimyo, 2 YS, and 2 SA.
While fighting I considred to break my alliance with Imagawa (2 damiyos in one battle, eh ? http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
One of my ashigaru quickly disposed of Takedas daimyo, without gaining any honour!!!(H=0)
Second, I managed to trap Imagawas daimyo, and killed him WITH THE SAME UNIT, still not gaining any further honour (H=0).
For me, if I was ashigaru, I would be VERY honoured to kill 2 daimyo in the SAME battle.
Also their kill rate was:
Killed: 47 (+ 2 daimyos)
Casualties: 13
Konnichiwa,
Sounds very sad. Honorgain during battle highly influenced combat. A gain of 4 points in STW resulted in +4 melee and +4 defense. Thus a cheap H0 Ysam will kill a far more expensive WM. The reason that 16 Kensai are powerful is that H0 units will grow to H2 in no time. Sad.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
I hope CA/DT has altered honor so that it only affects morale in MTW. Huge increases in combat ability on the spot are rediculous. This is especially bad in the online game.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Darkmoor_Dragon
06-23-2002, 18:53
same here - especially as its so easy for artillery to gain honour.
Darkmoor_Dragon,
Thanks for all the info you've posted about the game. The single player campaign certainly sounds interesting and complex, and I'm sure many people will enjoy the challenge it presents against computer controlled opponents. Players who want the highest level of tactical play tend to turn to the online game. CA/DT has a sophisticated battle engine and the online battles are very good, but they could be even better and brought to a level of a serious competative game worthy of the effort required to master it. I would like to see the online game brought up to its full potential with balanced gameplay in the skirmish tactical battles, an online multiplayer campaign and a full featured online environment.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Did anyone ever get a unit to gain +4 honour in STW?
And in one battle?
Was there much left of the unit?
From my experience so far honour gain in MTW certainly improves combat ability, and so it should. A confident fighter with experience is obviously going to be better at fighting than a novice.
There is a column in the unit stats(Honour Step Value) that seems as though it will dictate how many kills a unit needs to honour up. I think this means kills per man in the unit as for most this column is set to 1 for artillery and NapthaThrowers it's 2 and for Peasents it's 3.
Somehow can't see Peasents honouring up as they are the worst combat unit. I guess this also discourages the Peasent horde tatic.
Again the developers are allowing us the chance to change this if we want to suit each persons preference. So another thumbs up.
Darkmoor I imagine you are talking about cannons when you say they honour up too easily as I tried a catapult and it only kills one enemy per shot at best.
Shame a collapsing wall taking out an enemy unit dosn't count or didn't seem to in the demo.
Does the honouring up only affect the cannon crew's individual fighting ability and perhaps aim, or does each cannon shot actually start killing more?
In STW units seemed to honour up better if they went into dangerous situations i.e. leading the charge, rather than running down routing ashigaru.
So there may be a number of factors in MTW as well as the coulmn in the unit stats file, that will affect honour gain.
Sjakihata
06-24-2002, 03:16
Yuuki... what you described in your first post was, a good example in a bad D&D game http://www.totalwar.org/ubb/smile.gif
Yes, I have gained even honour 9,10, and 11 !
Have you ever exceeded the obvious 9 honour limit?
Darkmoor_Dragon
06-24-2002, 03:51
Hmm - I found catapults regularly killed multiple enemies and as they only have 8 crew its "easier" for them to get a higher kill-per-man-per unit than other non artillery units. For them to hit 4 or 5 in one battle against a stupid general wasn't hard (4 units of peasants in column walking towards a catapult was very stupid)
I was given the impression that higher honour improves aim etc - the only thing to effect the "effectiveness" of the weapon damages are upgrades (armourer etc).
Tbh since posting here and on .com I've made a list of over 50 questions that need clarification.
certainly when "replacing" units with fresh troops the new troops come in at zero honour - so any depletion in numbers hurts honour levels through man attrition. It mainly this that concerns me about artillery crew - often they dont suffer the same degree of attrition as they are such "long range" weapons.
I also have this "quasi historical" feeling that artillery units shouldn't be "that honourable" in the age of chivalry (if you get my drift) and it should be harder , rather than easier, for them to gain honour.
Another thing to check on for me - as you point out Dr if there an individual unit honour-step-value then its something easily adjusted, which is good.
Papewaio
06-24-2002, 04:22
Small units could show huge honour jumps.
As for units not going up in honour if the guy who kills the daimyo dies then he obviously won't contribute to the overall honour of his unit.
The honour gains may be faster... sounds very shoot em up style, also would degrade the value of training in the process... but the value of weapons and armour goes up.
As currently in STW the amount of honour you gain is proportional to the honour of the person you defeat standing and it seems to be a base two equation (kill two guys one honour less then yourself to go up a rank, one guy of equal honour to go up a rank, kill a higher rank guy and go up to his honour) if it is now a 1:1 equation all you need to do is kill one guy to go up an honour rank it means honour will go up exponetially faster then STW.
MTW 1 honour for every kill.
STW 1 honour for every ~2^n kills. Worth of opponent in the same system is 2^h a zero honour person standing is worth 1 honour a rank 2 is worth four honour, someone running is worth either 1 honour or 1/2 normal value not sure... what I am sure about is that YC kill many fleeing peasants but do not get much honour.
So my question is how is honour gains truly calculated and is it easier then STW?
Because the faster it grows on the battlefield the harder it is going to be to find a balanced system.
Kraellin
06-24-2002, 09:12
um, do we know that morale and skill are still tied together as a gain on the battlefield or even in the upgrade system when buying?
i will say this from what i've observed in the last battle of the demo. 'honor' gains are much faster. i had several units jump 2, 3 or even 4 points in 'honor', particularly the smaller knight units.
i also sway towards un-tieing morale and skill as upgrades in buying and on the field of battle, but i can somewhat see a point for both being together. what it 'almost' simulates is that an army with fewer men, but higher loyalty, training, and esprit de corps can win out in the end. this was somewhat lacking in stw/we/mi. numbers always won there. however, it also falls apart because both sides will get these bonuses, so numbers will still win out.
now, that last battle is rated difficult by the dev guys and i agree that it is. your back is literally to the wall and you're facing a far superior numerical force. this would seem to make my last paragraph wrong, but in the case of that battle, the ai is simply a bit loopy. a human player would never play that battle that way. so, in at least the case of THAT one battle, i liked the way my 'honor' rose. it made the difference tween winning or losing. if this also gave me combat adds, then hooray, cause i wouldnt have won otherwise.
i think the dev guys may be torn tween making the game for multi and making it for single. the stats tell them to make it for single, cause that's where the most sales are, while we here yell at them to make it for multi...well, some of us, anyways ;) if i'm the dev guys, i make it for single and then do the best i can for multi afterwards.
the nice thing is, they seem to have done a number of things we've asked for here. and, they also seem to have done what they could for multi by way of opening up the files even more for us to play with, and that shld be the salvation of multi for us. tosa and i were pouring over various stat files today and found quite a few interesting things. i wont bore you with details yet, but certainly seems to be more than the previous games.
one other note on modding; it 'may', and that's still a very cautious 'may', be possible to xfer maps from stw/we/mi to m:tw. dont hold yer breath yet, but they are at least still .jjm files. it might take a 'rob's file changer' to tweak the older maps or it might not even be possible at all. but at least the maps are still .jjm files.
the 'models' file is impressive. many, many more models. you can also see the sequential files for crumbling walls and that sort of thing. shld be moddable. and the backdrop files are all there in .tga format. shld also be moddable. anyone notice the backdrops now include land, instead of just sky?
tosa says the red zone is completely impassable now. frankly, i never got near enough to a map edge to notice, but it could be a bit of a problem in some games.
the new textures look even better in the game than they do on the various screenshots.
ok, i'm going way off topic here. i'll stop.
frankly, i liked it. i reserve the right to change my mind when we get into multi, however, or at any other time, for that matter. but i did enjoy the tuts.
as for 'honor'....let them eat cake!
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
We don't know how much honor gain affects a unit's combat ability in MTW. We do know that in STW and WE/MI +4 honor makes a unit 2x stronger and also gives +8 morale. These are big increases, but they are offset to some degree by a unit's casualties. However, even in the single player campaign, if you field an army that's +2 honor over the ai's army, it's a walkover. At the very least, I hope honor gains in MTW do not have as dramatic an effect on the units as it does in STW and WE/MI.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Konnichiwa,
It makes sense to boost the morale during a battle, it does not make sense to double the combatabilities of a unit.
This is a serious issue in online battles, less in offline, but what Yuuki mentions hold true.
The reward on the battlefield should be morale only, after the battle a unit can develop (is given opportunity to train either by increased self confidence or finance by his lord- no need to implement that I just say it to visualise) his combatskills. He'll be a better unit in the next battle. In short: battlerewards are given when the battle is finished. This maintains the upgrade of units in campaigns (which is very good) and solves the issue with online games.
I believe I came accross number of kills required for this unit to upgrade.
That implies that this could be set to off in the stat or changed to a high value. If this is true this problem can be solved too.
Yet another reason for a built in Stat manager.
I can only guess what the numbers actually do, but I'm quite impressed with the stats. Spearunits can have individual anti cav bonusses, both defensive and offensive. And those increase when a unit is upgraded. No more fixed yari vs cav bonus and no more equal basevalues for poor farmers and elite pikes.
Unitprices and building prequisites are also available, a very good thing for both on- and offline players.
Very good news for offline players is that building costs and construction times can be edited too.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Krasturak
06-24-2002, 23:27
... but with all those files available for modding, we're sure to encounter people who will mis-use those features to cheat in multi.
This would be very bad.
Krasturak,
All the program has to do is check everyone's stat against the host's stat in the same way that the version number is checked now in WE/MI. Better yet, the stat should come from the host and be downloaded to the joiners which guarantees that everyone is using the same thing, and gets around stat swapping altogether.
MizuYuuki ~~~
Kraellin
06-25-2002, 02:07
tosa,
yeah, i saw that stat too. lots of moddable things now. i'm very impressed with that.
i differ a bit in the combat and morale upgrades on the field though. i find that when i'm fighting someone with a sword that i tend to get better if he's better or die. my difference is that i wouldnt do it one for one, though. increase the morale and increase the combat skill, but make the skill upgrade slower, maybe i to 4 of what the morale boost is. there is no training like the actual thing to improve your ability.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
TosaInu, Your idea of a unit gaining ability after the battle is a good one but not entirly realistic. I agree with Kraelin's idea.
Picture a lone Spearman going into his first ever battle so is at h0, he is nervous, and as the enemy approaches is deciding wether to run or not. He is not thinking how best to use his spear to kill the enemy. i.e. low combat ability.
By fluke he kills the man in front of him, his morale jumps(or he's sick) and suddenly feels braver and more confident.
He then starts to look for next enemy soldier and to defend himself properly rather than where to run to.
I think this warrants an increase in combat ability in the battle itself.
Although to make it totally realistic and reflect each person's difference's then initial honour should be random for each man. i.e. you will get the occasional hero as well as cowards.
This issue of honour gain, is difficult to sort out using current combat calc and stats as I imagine decimals would cause a problem. i.e. it's either jump a unit from +1 attack to +2 attack or not at all.
If the honour gains in MTW are the same as STW, a solution if the combat engine can handle it in MTW would be to say multiply all unit stats by 2,3 or even 4 (apart from negative ones) as you desire, that way the honour gain would not be such a problem.
Or most likely I think the way the combat calcs work you will have to add a base value like +5 to all units to keep them on equalish terms.
Units do seem to gain honour quicker in MTW though so it may just be that they have changed how much you gain from getting +1 honour.
Seems some testing is in order.
Konnichiwa,
Honorgain in a battle is good, a large boost in combatskills is not (those things are knit together in TW games).
It seems not possible to give a unit 1/4 point on the field and 3/4 after the battle (think of 'allowing' the unit to develop his fighting skills for the next battle after 3 months).
Thus it would be better to give moralerewards during battle, and adjust the combatabilities to that after the battle so you have a better soldier within 3 months (developing fightingskills takes time).
Online games really suffer from battlerewards. As it's seems possible to edit the required number of kills to 'level up' for each unit, this could simply be turned off or edited to an acceptable level in the stats. Online games can have their very own stats then. The community doesn't have to wait for a patch tweaking unitstats, but can make it themselves. A built in manager would then easily allow the host to select a stat, players who have the stat can then join his game (exactely the same as hosting on custom maps right now). A Pre battle CRC will prevent 'irregularities'.
It would be good if MTW allows for an optional auto send of required files (OF, RA, UT), so you don't have to download.
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Ja mata
Toda MizuTosaInu
Daimyo Takiyama Shi
http://www.takiyama.cjb.net
Kraellin
06-26-2002, 00:54
tosa,
i think you misunderstood me. i wasnt saying give 1/4 now and 3/4 after battle; i was saying give 1 point of combat skill for every 4 points of morale gained...or some other figure. maybe even 1 for 2 would be enough. combat IS where you get your best skill training. training against dummies or not in a real life situaation may train your handling of weapons and so on, but it's just not the same thing as actual experience in the field, thus i agree with giving combat skills during combat, but just not on a one to one basis with morale adds. morale can rise and fall like a yo-yo. skills dont.
it shld also be realized, therefore, that once you gain a skill in combat, it is NOT dependent thereafter upon morale rises and falls. if your 'honor' goes up and then down and you've gained a skill point, you shld NOT lose it if morale goes down later on. this is another reason to un-tie morale and skill...if indeed they are still tied.
and dr no,
one of the things i did during the 1.02 beta testing was to raise honor by 10x of all troops. what this did was exaggerate morale and so on so that you could then minutely tweak the stat by 1 or 2 for a more exsct measurement of what was needed. when you then dropped them back down from 10x you simply used decimals instead of integers for the fine tweaks. so, i agree with you, the scale shld be larger numbers so that a single increase isnt proportionally large. i learned this long ago in fantasy games using the old d&d rules where stats were 3 to 18. had they added two zeros to each of those or even one zero, it would have been a better system. oh, and to compensate for the much higher morale by adding 10x to whatever that unit had, i also increased attack, defense and i think armor, by 10x also. this exaggeration of the stats makes it much easier to balance things as you get a longer battle and can see more of exactly what's going on with each unit.
K.
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The only absolute is that there are no absolutes.
Chance to kill is not a linear function of those melee and defend values. They are the exponent of a real number and are probably being restricted to integers to reduce the computational load on the cpu. The way to reduce the size of the steps is to lower the exponent's base value of 1.2 to something like 1.1. In STW and WE/MI,
+1 honor is a 1.44 combat advantage,
+2 honor is a 2.07 combat advantage,
+3 honor is a 2.99 combat advantage,
+4 honor is a 4.30 combat advantage,
+5 honor is a 6.19 combat advantage,
+6 honor is a 8.92 combat advantage.
If the base value was 1.1 instead of 1.2,
+1 honor would be a 1.21 combat advantage,
+2 honor would be a 1.46 combat advantage,
+3 honor would be a 1.77 combat advantage,
+4 honor would be a 2.14 combat advantage,
+5 honor would be a 2.59 combat advantage,
+6 honor would be a 3.14 combat advantage.
A 2x combat advantage is enough to win every time with less than 50% casualties, all other things being equal.
Why the big steps in STW and WE/MI? Was it just a programming oversight that melee and defend are not increased alternately by honor increases as the F1 screen indicates?
Kraellin, keep in mind that the function will saturate quickly. Multiplying all the melee and defend values by 10 will drive the function into saturation very quickly. An advantage of +1 melee becomes a +10 melee advantage which is really getting up there. Adjustments made at the 10x level are probably not going to scale down when you divide all the values by 10, and we can't have decimals anyway.
MizuYuuki ~~~
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 06-25-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 06-25-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 06-25-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 06-25-2002).]
[This message has been edited by Puzz3D (edited 06-25-2002).]
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