Are the Turks totally mad ?

[_Tristan_]

Lastly, playing as Hungary on H/H, I was allied to the Turks with a Perfect standing...

The arrival of the Mongol led me to propose military assistance to the Turks whih I wanted to use as a buffer against the Horde...

So when the Mongols started besieging Yerevan, I sent an expeditionary force to relieve the city...

I stopped my army just outside the city in the Mongol ZoC...End Turn...

The Turks sally out and with the support I provided, the Mongols are sent reeling... I had proved a true ally...

What surprised me was that in the same turn a nearby turkish army suddenly attacked my relief force for no reason, dragging the city defenders into the fray... I won that battle and got Yerevan for my efforts...But I'm now at war with the Turks who wwere perfect allies for more than 50 turns...

So what gives ?

[WhiskeyGhost]

My guess? they thought you would turn on them the second the Mongols were dealt with, so they took a preventative measure by making a pre-emptive strike. It gets really irritating when the AI does it to players (hey, why is my ally keeping a full stack near my city?) so in theory they were considering your forces a threat by just being there.......or so i assume anyways

[Fußball]

That kind of stuff can happen. My current campaign as HRE I was allied with the French for most of the game and they suddenly decided that they'd rather try and take a poorly defended Imperial city than be on my good pals list. Then later in the same campaign I took several of their provinces, including Paris. A few turns and relation boostings later I sued for peace.

I gave them two provinces back including Paris and some florins to get them back on their feet for a simple ceasefire. They took it happily and two turns later stabbed me in the back again. Of course the second time I simply ravaged all their lands until I was happy. And to top it all off I gave one of their provinces to the English who are better pals than they are... :smash: :laugh4:

Tschüß!
Erich

[wenka]

First of all: you offered them military assistence agaist the mongols, right? Do you also had military acess into their territory?

I think they have considered your stack a menace when you got so near the city.

[Whacker]

First of all: you offered them military assistence agaist the mongols, right? Do you also had military acess into their territory?

I think they have considered your stack a menace when you got so near the city.

But with perfect standing he only should have taken a small hit each turn or so. Full out attack/backstabbing is not logical.

The best and most realistic answer to the OP is that diplomacy is still broken in a number of spots/ways. It's the only explanation I can come up with for some of the absolutely outrageous/suicidal displays of Darwinian diplomacy that I've seen in the games since the v1.02 patch.

[Shahed]

It is indeed. Totally agree. I finally played my Byz campaign today for a couple of hours after about 14 days (!!!) the HRE attacked me at Zagreb while having Outstanding or Perfect relations, granted military access and received, allies. This should theoretcially be impossible under the new AI parameters but apparently it isn't. Obviously after getting beating them up badly in 2-3 instant attacks. I paid 10K plus map, for ceasefire, they accepted, and then next turn allied again for the rest of my treasury. Plus they attacked in the area where I had the most concentration of troops, while Constantinople only had one stack of +-15 units and there was a Crusade right next to it. They would have been wiser to attack that, rather than attack in the Balkans and face roving bands of V-tanks, plus about 5 stacks. No sense at all.

[wenka]

So... it is the dumb and ilogical AI again!!

[Shahed]

It's a lot better but I think it's still busted up in the wrong places.
BTW welcome to the org !

[Whacker]

So... it is the dumb and ilogical AI again!!

In terms of raw capabilities and intelligence, I'd probably rank the M2TW diplomatic AI somewhere along the lines of "Assisted Living".

[Whacker]

It's a lot better but I think it's still busted up in the wrong places.
BTW welcome to the org !
Yeah, what he said. :grin:

Also welcome aboard mate. ~:cheers:

[Hermann the Lombard]

In terms of raw capabilities and intelligence, I'd probably rank the M2TW diplomatic AI somewhere along the lines of "Assisted Living".
Yes, or specifically the part of the Assisted Living facility called something soothing like "Memory Support" aka the Alzheimer's unit.

[WhiskeyGhost]

If it makes you feel any better, imagine the AI is actually a person, and that person is one of those noobs who goes "Haha i'm the greetest! Just cause we are allies doesn't mean you can take me in a fair fight!" *after battle* "No fair! you wouldn't have kicked my butt if you fought like a man and didn't use archers!"

That always makes me feel a little less uneasy about the diplomacy :beam:

[El Diablo]

I know that the AI is more of an oxymoron than a statement of ability but you must all realise that foolish "pre-emptive" attacks have happened throughout history.

The Japanese attack on Pearl Harbour succeeded in "waking the sleeping giant" and the Nazi attack on Russia was probably not the best idea when they still had an active fronts (against the UK and in North Africa) are a couple of recent examples.

This is not to take away from the fact that the AI does stupid things in this game but, hey, they have happened in the past.
Also the guys at CA have to hard-code behavior patterns for all factions without being able to see what kind of gamestyle the human player is doing.

For example a Blitzing player should get "random attacks" more as they are a "militant faction" whereas a turtling player could be percieved more as a "valuable ally". A VERY delicate balance to get I think.

Also if the AI kept to all its alliances the player could just build up quicker then the AI and swarm it at its lesiure. No surprise attacks means that you can divide and conquer very easily????

Also think of it this way, if you were the "small faction" and had a shot to take out the big guy and were going to get some back up from other allies, would you take it? And would you trust the AI to have a full stack next to your city when you were under seige from the Golden Horde? That being YOU know YOU were NOT going to take the city but could the AI be sure??

Just my 2c worth...

[Budwise]

I tend to agree with the last post from El Diablo (too big to quote). I would also like to add that if the AI wanted help against the horde, they should be able to ask for assistance. Just showing up with an army would scare me, expectually if you just let them sit for an extra turn.

As far as the other things he said I agree 100%, if your turtling and being a complete friend, they should be more willing to leave you alone but if your a blitzkrieking nazi, they should ally up and hit you on all fronts.

I guess the last thing I can say is that we all play like this is a real life campaign and not see it as a game based on war. The point of CA I think is to pretty much be at war at all times but the way the people who play it I think just play it to build and make their empire the best on the board, which is how I play. I would rather have a great ally and never attack them throughtout the whole game than be at a constant conflict with someone. Thirty to Fifty years of peace isn't always a bad thing and I hope they fix this problem in the next patch/expansion/TW game. I also think the AI should act a little differently than another faction. I think one faction should be a saint while another could be a backstabbing bastard. I think that would be a little harder to implement but I would rather see CA work on this than have to upgrade my computer yet again to play with better graphics next time.

[Kobal2fr]

Well, I just tanked my last campaign as Venice. I had succeeded in allying with the Milanese from turn 1. They did the Florentine shuffle* for 20 or so turns then started doing sensible stuff. By that time I was allied with every faction sharing a border with the HRE and had shared mil rights with Milan, so I seized the opportunity to grab Bologna, then got them to agree to a ceasefire+trade they readily accepted because they already had two wars going on. Milan trusted me enough that they left skeleton garrisons in both Genoa and Milan to focus on Bern, Dijon, Ajaccio etc...

Time went on. I went on crusade to Jerusalem, took it. Bought Acre off Egypt when Jerusalem was stable enough. Fended off a bunch of attacks for Byzantium on Heraklion. Took Antioch on a second crusade, which wrecked havoc on Byzantium on the way (I had the stack take Durazzo, Constantinople and that city lying between them I can't remember the name of, sack them, sell all buildings then let them revolt. Then did the same in Cyprus. Recover from THAT, you Greek bastards !).

When this was done, I was number 1 everywhere. I had helped Milan during at least two battles and helped them take Corsica - super relations, and I fed them scraps from time to time too. I'm Very Reliable and the world is my oyster.

The HRE was becoming a bit worrying, massing crummy forces in the Venice region but I didn't want to attack them because they were allied with some of my allies, including (you guessed it) Milan. I did put a full stack on the Venice bridge just in case, "captained" by a spy and a priest to make sure it wouldn't revolt.

The thing is, both agents died without me noticing it, and the stack eventually rebelled. One full stack chock full of pavise'd crossbows blocking all of my forces in Italy (my navy was busy dealing with Byzantium's Fire Ships around Crete). And I couldn't bribe them either.
Next turn, the HRE stack races to Zagreb (and take it after a die hard resistance from my guys) and... Milan attacks Florence. Out of the blue. While they were at war with the French. WITH MY GUYS OUT THERE HELPING THEM.

Sometimes, the AI just jumps at you because it has the opportunity to. The lesson from this story is : never *ever* forget to give your trusted allies a tribute of 100 florins for 1000 turns to virtually chain them to you :p

* : the Florentine shuffle is when the Milanese AI builds up forces in Genoa, puts the stack in boats, lands them in the Florence region, then moves them back to Genoa. All in a turn's work, ma'am, all in a turn's work.

[Didz]

Part of the problem seems to be the Pope, who for some reason seems to hate long term alliances, except with himself.

In my Scottish game I have been allied with France, Sicily and The Papal States more or less from the start of the game (or as soon as I made contact anyway). It's now turn 108, however, over the course of play the Pope has become more and more insistent that I betray my other allies.

I've had Papal Missions demanding that I blockade French or Sicilian Ports, or take their Cities, even though he isn't at war with them or even under any threat. I've also been blatantly told to cancel my alliance with France on several occasions. Up until recently I've managed to avoid compliance and keep my allies. It makes you wonder if he is demanding the same thing of your allies about your ports and cities.

A few turns ago, he finally declared a crusade on Toulouse which I found bizarre, and when I ignored that he forced the issue simply declaring war on France and forcing me to choose between them.

If the Pope is doing this with other factions too, its probably him, more than anyone, who is causing the trouble.

[Kobal2fr]

Hmmm as far as I know he only requests you cancel alliances/attack factions he's excommunicated... and since he CANNOT attack a non-excommed catholic faction, the French probably brought it upon themselves by ignoring him, attacking other caths or attacking him (wow, the French being jerks ? Who'd a thunk it ? :grin: ).

I've witnessed that particular kind of suicide a few times. During a short-lived Hungarian campaign (I *really* can't take the pink. I mean, I try, and I try, and I try, but I just can't) I've seen the Milanese actually attack him. Just like that.
They weren't excommunicated either, they just jumped him I guess. Or maybe they were caught up with him in an alliance battle against Venice or the HRE, dunno, had no spies out there, but at the time it just struck me as a case of hating life in the Italian peninsula on the Milanese's part :p

[Philbert]

BTW, ill-advised preemptive strikes are not just a thing of the distant past. There was one quite recently that didn't work out as anyone had intended either.

[Didz]

Hmmm as far as I know he only requests you cancel alliances/attack factions he's excommunicated... and since he CANNOT attack a non-excommed catholic faction, the French probably brought it upon themselves by ignoring him, attacking other caths or attacking him (wow, the French being jerks ? Who'd a thunk it ? :grin: ).
Your probably right, the French have been loyal allies to Scotland in my current game, but damned embarrassing friends most of the time. As I just observed in my Scottish blog there have been times when I really wished that allies had the ability to influence each others behaviour, or at least make excuses to the Pope for the other ones stupid actions.

Perhaps that could be another diplomatic enhancement...a 'Stop being a dumbarse' option that persuades an ally not to self-destruct.