Poll - How frequent do disasters occurr in your campaigns

[Teleklos Archelaou]

That's the question. How often have they occurred in **EB** while you are playing it? You can click as many different options as apply.

[Pharnakes]

Is it just me that can't see the poll?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The board is weird like that. When you post a poll, the thread appears first, then while you make the poll, it isn't visible yet until you totally finish it (but the thread post is sitting there, visible.). Odd, but the way it works.

[Maeran]

While I'm waiting for the poll, I shall ask.

Do you mean disasters like the Seleukids breaking our alliance to wipe out my Roman army that was in fact campaigning against Carthage in Africa?


Or CTDs?

Edit- Ah, you mean natural disasters.

I've seen several plagues. No storms or floods though. If you're considering tweaking this, is there any way to make them more likely in winter?

[Dumbass]

I have had volcanoes in Southern Italy, but no message popped up, and no lava spewed forth, all I noticed was the sound of destruction, smoke coming out and a drained population.

[Pharnakes]

Yeah same here, though I never noticed the loss of population, though I didn't really look for it, but I've definatley had the screams and roaring nosises.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The thing is, it seems we can make plagues and volcanic eruptions occur on specific years ("historical disasters"), but storms, random plagues, random volcanic eruptions, floods, and earthquakes are all very very very very rare to nonexistant, and we can't find a way to change that.

It seems like the file that controls that stuff does absolutely nothing - you can totally delete it and it does nothing.

Anyone interested in solving the problems can take a look at the discussion here: https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?t=77756

I'm going to submit a new disasters.tga file with the next build, then post this poll again a couple of months after the release, and see if it has changed at all from what we currently see in the results.

-----------
edit: Yeah, the volcanoes will be fixed - I see that all that takes is repositioning etna's coordinates, and I tried it and it works now. That is a historical volcanic eruption though - one that we set the date for. I wish we could do it for storms and floods and earthquakes too though, but it only works for plagues and volcanoes that way.

[Warmaster Horus]

Yep, I had Dumbass' problem too.
Thing is, it also took away my great general Scipio Asina...
He had just come back from a great conquest of Sicily.
But, oh well.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Oops - I voted for Earthquake never, but now I recall I once had one. I got a message, and dead soldiers and citizens, but no animation.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, we can't put coordinates in for that pontic earthquake or the gallic one or iberian one either. But the messages still pop up.

[The Celt]

None, zippo, nada. I think in one of my Arverni campaigns I had a plague but that was about two or three versions ago. So I've never seen any disasters in any of my 8.1v2 games.:thumbsdown: Its kinda boring really.....

[Redmeth]

I got plagues-a-plenty (5-6) in my Sauromatae campaign and once or twice in my Casse campaign. I've never seen floods or earthquakes though.

[d'Arthez]

I have had floods, and I have had even three different occurances of a plague in a single campaign (non-spy induced). In order to prevent being slaughtered by the Seleukids, I sent out an army of pest-ridden rats .... spies.:skull:


But I have not had a single instance of the plague or floods when playing with the Romans.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, believe us, we'd love to have more of them or some of them at all. We haven't changed anything we are aware would make a difference, and from talking with other modders it just seems like this is all out of our hands.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

I've seen earthquakes (once maybe twice), plagues (I once used a spy to kill 20,000 people in Antioch with a plague), floods (sometimes cause a bug that prevents you from ever building a tower/fort in the territory it happen, ever again); but I have never seen volcanos or storms.

[Sakkura]

I have had earthquakes a few times, never any message about it though.
I haven't seen any of the others, although it is possible I could have missed a flood if it's "secret" like the earthquakes.

[Underhand]

I've never seen any disasters in EB, although that may be because I've only played beyond 240 with Bactria. I do wonder though why you would want to script historical storms, floods or plagues, given your attitude towards historical determinism in the rest of the mod (e.g. not wanting to script the emergence of Hannibal). I can understand scripting volcanic eruptions and earthquakes, given that they build up over such a long period that I'd expect they'd probably happen again if the period covered by EB was run again, but weather is chaotic and unpredictable even in the short term, and plagues are directly affected by the movements of carriers, among other things. It seems highly doubtful that a historical storm, flood or plague would always happen at a specific time and place.

[abou]

Weather is not really affected by what man does at this point in history (well, not then anyway since man didn't send thousands of ton of CO2 into the air). Pyrrhos conquering Makedonia isn't suddenly going to prevent rain.

Plauge is a different manner. We might try to make it so that if plauge shows up in a certain province it will spread realistically. We might also see if we would want to track outbreaks that start in China, which would be mostly unaffected by events in game, and then spread to Europe. It turns out most terrible diseases in recent times and history originate from China so I think this could work nicely.

[Matic]

I've never had ANY of the natural disasters (storm, earthquake, volcano) but I've had more plagues than you can shake a stick at.

[Thaatu]

I too have had enough plagues for my share, usually two per campaign. I remember seeing a storm as Carthage, and the time when my siege of Messana was lifted by Mount Etna I cannot forget. But floods I haven't seen once in EB, and I had no idea there were earthquakes in RTW...

[Underhand]

Weather is not really affected by what man does at this point in history (well, not then anyway since man didn't send thousands of ton of CO2 into the air). Pyrrhos conquering Makedonia isn't suddenly going to prevent rain.
True, but that's not what I meant. My point is that what we understand about the weather is that it's extremely hard to predict accurately and can change very quickly and unexpectedly. On the other hand, the movement of tectonic plates occurs over decades and isn't really affected by what goes on on the surface of the planet. This means that, the way I see it, running a segment of history over again from a specific moment would probably see earthquakes and volcanic eruptions at similar times and places, but very different weather, just as it would see different people born.

All that said, the activities of man could affect the weather. What if in EB Rome conquers its empire really quickly (which is likely what happens most of the time someone plays as the Romani) and sticks up advanced blacksmiths everywhere and has a population explosion? What if a tribe clears this forest rather than that forest?

Small things in a great enough number (and there definitely are many millions of them happening all the time) could presumably affect the weather somewhat too. Perhaps if I fart in your general direction I might avert the rainstorm we'll be having in six weeks ~;)

[blank]

no disasters for me...

too bad, really :shame:

[Moros]

The butterfly effect, huh? I think weather could be made random, but eruptions and earthquakes really should be in specific years. Tough in one way it's stupid if you're already knowing a vulcano is going to errupt so that you can move your army temporarly,... Somewhere that would be dull. So at least keep some disasters like the plagues and floods random or something. Tough some could remain to happen on a fixed date, like a large epidemia or soemthing.

[Fondor_Yards]

No quakes, 1-2 storms, a half a dozen or so floods, and more plaques then I can count.

[d'Arthez]

I'd rather have a volcano erupting once over a period of 100 turns, than twice in specific turns. The human player will make plans when he knows when the volcanoes will erupt. The same with earthquakes.

An integral part of historical disasters is that they were not expected. Would the people of Pompeii decide to the same course of inaction if they knew what was going to happen?

I am no expert on floods, but how likely is it that a province on the Iranian plateau (I think it was Gabiene in my game) gets hit by a flood? I would think though, that it would be relatively common for crops to fail, especially when unadvanced farming techniques are used (weather being equal).

[abou]

That's a pretty fair argument, Underhand. Not that I completely agree with it, but a good point made. We'll just have to make them a bit more randomized. And actually, since you mentioned deforestation, that could actually increase the chance of floods without plants to absorb water. I wonder if we can check for settlement size against chances of flooding.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Weather is not really affected by what man does at this point in history (well, not then anyway since man didn't send thousands of ton of CO2 into the air). Pyrrhos conquering Makedonia isn't suddenly going to prevent rain.
Uh, the Romans for example built mines in basically all of Spain. The pollution (sulphur) resulting from the processing of the ore was so high, that the impact on the climate could be proven by examination of ice cores extracted from the Greenland ice cap. And the same goes with every volcanic outburst in history (last few thousand years).


I am no expert on floods, but how likely is it that a province on the Iranian plateau (I think it was Gabiene in my game) gets hit by a flood?
Hehe - my only flood so far occured in the middle of Mauretania...

Although volcanic eruptions seem quite determined and uneffected by what is happening on the surface, I doubt it could be foreseen exactly. It would be perfect to code it like "... volcanic eruption in Campania somehow between 82BC and 76BC..."

[CountArach]

None of them.

[Captian Cornelius]

I feel sad, I've had RTW for a whole year now I've played a bout an hour a day and I've never seen a storm or earth quake.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Thanks to the Border Reiver, looks like we will be having random earthquakes in appropriate hotspots in a future build. Probably some more small volcanoes too that randomly have flareups. :2thumbsup: He posted his work a little while ago on the disasters file and random floods in certain places are possible too.

[d'Arthez]

That is great news. Hopefully this will be included in the next build.

[Captian Cornelius]

That is great news. Hopefully this will be included in the next build.
Couldn't see why it wouldn't be, unless he used some crazy complex method to do it.

[Thaatu]

Thanks to the Border Reiver, looks like we will be having random earthquakes in appropriate hotspots in a future build. Probably some more small volcanoes too that randomly have flareups. :2thumbsup: He posted his work a little while ago on the disasters file and random floods in certain places are possible too.
Oh crap. I fail to see how this is good news for me... :sweatdrop:

[BerkeleyBoi]

Plauge is a different manner. We might try to make it so that if plauge shows up in a certain province it will spread realistically. We might also see if we would want to track outbreaks that start in China, which would be mostly unaffected by events in game, and then spread to Europe. It turns out most terrible diseases in recent times and history originate from China so I think this could work nicely.

I'm going to be off topic, sorry about that, but I'm curious as to why the diseases tend to come from China? SARS and Avian Flu are two recent cases, but others such as AIDS and Ebola comes from Africa. I don't know about ancient diseases, but is there a reason why it comes from China? (I think it has something to do with the huge masses of people living in condensed area, but India also had a dense population in ancient times, right?)

Once again, sorry for being off topic... so to make up for it, I have never seen any disasters other than plagues. Maybe one storm or earthquake...

[Underhand]

Tough in one way it's stupid if you're already knowing a vulcano is going to errupt so that you can move your army temporarly
I have the perfect answer for that, actually. Just be as absent-minded as me, and you'll never remember to move your army of elites or general with the Reformator trait out of the way. I actually look forward to the anguish, in a strange sort of way.

That's a pretty fair argument, Underhand. Not that I completely agree with it, but a good point made. We'll just have to make them a bit more randomized. And actually, since you mentioned deforestation, that could actually increase the chance of floods without plants to absorb water. I wonder if we can check for settlement size against chances of flooding.
Ta. The settlement size idea is an interesting one, although if it's too obvious that it's happening then it'll seem like being punished for something you can't really avoid - settlement growth. I think it'd be perfect if it just gives a nagging feeling that something's up.

Although volcanic eruptions seem quite determined and uneffected by what is happening on the surface, I doubt it could be foreseen exactly. It would be perfect to code it like "... volcanic eruption in Campania somehow between 82BC and 76BC..."
Probably the best thing to do, if it's possible. That way, only the real obsessives would remember to avoid it. Or everyone would treat the area like a nuclear fallout zone until the eruption is safely over, I suppose.

[Watchman]

I am no expert on floods, but how likely is it that a province on the Iranian plateau (I think it was Gabiene in my game) gets hit by a flood?
Hehe - my only flood so far occured in the middle of Mauretania...Wouldn't those be written up to flash floods due to a rare bout of torrential rain combined with highland snow and ice melting in the spring ? I understand those can be a problem even in normally rather arid regions - indeed particularly there, as they're so uncommon and hence surprising.

[Sakkura]

I'm going to be off topic, sorry about that, but I'm curious as to why the diseases tend to come from China? SARS and Avian Flu are two recent cases, but others such as AIDS and Ebola comes from Africa. I don't know about ancient diseases, but is there a reason why it comes from China? (I think it has something to do with the huge masses of people living in condensed area, but India also had a dense population in ancient times, right?)

Once again, sorry for being off topic... so to make up for it, I have never seen any disasters other than plagues. Maybe one storm or earthquake...
Well zoonoses can arise anywhere human contact with animals is widespread, which applies to China but also to India. Other pandemics can arise anywhere human population is concentrated, especially where sanitation and medical service is poor - again, India and China are prime candidates.

The black death seems to have started either in the steppes of central Asia or in northern India. It was then spread east into China and west into Europe by Mongols and traders.

Anyway, China appears to be just one of a number of common origins of disease outbreaks.

[Pharnakes]

Wouldn't those be written up to flash floods due to a rare bout of torrential rain combined with highland snow and ice melting in the spring ? I understand those can be a problem even in normally rather arid regions - indeed particularly there, as they're so uncommon and hence surprising.

Certinately for Gabiene, but I'm a little more doubtful about Mauretania.

[Elminster12]

There's also the factor that the west traded extensively with China and India from this point on, so pathogens could easily pass between two disparate populations.

As for disasters, I've gotten plagues twice. Once as the Sauromatae(I was grateful, damned Uspe was getting too bad for my nomadic ability to control it...) and once as Pontos(in Amaseia too, no less! that royally sucked, but I dutifully spread it as far throughout the Seleukid empire as I could:2thumbsup: )

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There are some 'scripted' historical plagues, but it looks from the code like 'random' plagues do not exist in EB. The ones that are scripted (doesn't involve the script files though) are found in Pella, Asia Minor, two throughout Italy, and one in Alexandria.

Is there definite proof that plagues are occurring *in EB* outside those places, by having overpopulation and poor health?

[d'Arthez]

I do remember that in my Baktria campaign a plague hit in 267BC. I neglected to build health improvements, as I was trying to build up my factional MIC4 there. Population must have been around 9000. Was not spy induced.

The overpopulation + poor health seems like a possible cause of the outbreak there.

[-Praetor-]

yeh, the triggers are, I guess, not having enough health buildings and overpopulation.

So yes, they do tend to happen if the right conditions are met.

Cheers!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

So there must be a third way plagues can happen that is totall uncontrollable by modders:

1. "script" plague by descr_events.txt historical events file - need to specify place where it occurs
2. cause "random" plagues by descr_disasters.txt file - places where they occur need to be specified by region or coordinates or terrain
For EB, this group is currently "off" -
event plague
frequency 2
winter false
summer false
min_scale 2
max_scale 5
3. a third uncontrollable by modders way that is hardcoded to cause plagues in towns with overpopulation and little to no health improvements

[Watchman]

Certinately for Gabiene, but I'm a little more doubtful about Mauretania.Desert regions have their dry riverbeds that see water about once in a decade, but then in a torrent, don't they ? And on the map Mauretania seems to have not only reasonably sized waterways, but also lots of mountains and other high ground for rainwater and such to pour down from no ?

I'll grant you I have slight difficulties imagining such flash river-floods managing more than drowning a few shepherds though, but the game engine is the game engine...

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Wouldn't those be written up to flash floods due to a rare bout of torrential rain combined with highland snow and ice melting in the spring ? I understand those can be a problem even in normally rather arid regions - indeed particularly there, as they're so uncommon and hence surprising.
That's a good point, Watchman:

I remember my Geography teacher saying "in the Sahara, more people drowned than died of thirst - arab proverb".

She also said: "Don't say Sahara, it's Sahara. Sahara means little bag."

She was really well travelled. :yes:

[Thaatu]

Wouldn't those be written up to flash floods due to a rare bout of torrential rain combined with highland snow and ice melting in the spring ? I understand those can be a problem even in normally rather arid regions - indeed particularly there, as they're so uncommon and hence surprising.
Yeah, I remember a Donald Duck story where Scrooge had to run away from a flood in the middle of an Australian desert. It's by Don Rosa, so I can't critisise the realism of it.


...


I'll get my coat.

[Tellos Athenaios]

Back to poll: I've seen all of it, plagues I can barely avoid them and the AI can't. Happens mostly when I'm ready and want to take the town, then they make a mistake with their biochemical weapons. Or some such thing. >> Cyrene. :inquisitive:

Earthquakes, Sahara province, the area around Karmana. Though quite a while ago. Does nice things to the campaign map.

Floods: happens when I conquer a settlement, apparently the Gods don't like me >> Taras, Gawjam~Habukoz. Happens with the AI governing a settlement too >> Arretium.

Storms: happens when my occasional naval transport is underway. Especially at the shores of enemy AI settlements, I'd like to raid.

Volcanoes: once seen the Etna flooding poor Sicily with lava.

Anything else? Well, plenty of it mostly piracy & AI & pathfinding & traits related, but I guess that's entirely off topic too.

[Underhand]

I finally got a plague the other day in Garama. Frankly, it serves those bastards right. They, along with Siga, have been a thorn in my side ever since I took them from the Carthaginians, getting angry at the drop of a helmet and forcing me to relocate my capital to an inconvenient place. Seeing that a few hundred more have died at the start of each turn pleases me a little.

[d'Arthez]

I finally got a plague the other day in Garama. Frankly, it serves those bastards right. They, along with Siga, have been a thorn in my side ever since I took them from the Carthaginians, getting angry at the drop of a helmet and forcing me to relocate my capital to an inconvenient place. Seeing that a few hundred more have died at the start of each turn pleases me a little.
Playing as the Romans? Now you could send a spy to Garama and hope he will be able to travel to Siga, WITH the plague. Perfect population control. ~D.

[cezarip]

Playing as the Romans I have seen the eruptions of both Vesuvius and Etna. Both times when my legions were near almost halving the units.

[Underhand]

Playing as the Romans? Now you could send a spy to Garama and hope he will be able to travel to Siga, WITH the plague. Perfect population control. ~D.
Perhaps, although the citizens of Siga have lately been suspiciously well-behaved. Maybe they guessed what might happen if they weren't.

Speaking of spies and plagues, I'm having an ethical dilemma. Garama is right next to Egypt, which is right next to the giant Seleucid Empire. I'm tempted to make use of these backwater desert-dwellers' lack of personal hygiene.

[d'Arthez]

Biological warfare? Just convince yourself to do it. The weaker both these empires are, the less resistance they can put up to the rightful rule of Rome. And when the inevitable happens (the occupation of Alexandreia, Antioch et cetera), you will not be forced to put the population to the sword - partly due to decimated population, partly due to the bigger garrison bonus, when you capture the cities.

Really, it is a win-win situation. ~D

[Underhand]

Actually, it's more over whether I want to exploit the engine and take advantage of the AI than whether biological warfare is wrong (it's a game, and as such to me 'right' and 'wrong' are irrelevant). I have no qualms about exterminating cities if to not do so would cause me headaches. I'd also like to experience slaughtering swarms of Seleucids with my swarms of Romans - maybe I'll finally get a triumph ~;)

[Elminster12]

Actually, it's more over whether I want to exploit the engine and take advantage of the AI than whether biological warfare is wrong (it's a game, and as such to me 'right' and 'wrong' are irrelevant). I have no qualms about exterminating cities if to not do so would cause me headaches. I'd also like to experience slaughtering swarms of Seleucids with my swarms of Romans - maybe I'll finally get a triumph ~;)
I always send the spies against my enemies. Considering I play Pontos alot, that's usually the Seleukids(whether or not we're officially enemies is beside the point, I'm just grinning and acting nice in hopes the Ptolies wallop them so I can backstab them:smash: ) and, naturally, a spy would be out spying, wouldn't he? If he has the plague, maybe he doesn't know it until he falls ill...on his mission in Antioch:skull:

[Underhand]

I always send the spies against my enemies. Considering I play Pontos alot, that's usually the Seleukids(whether or not we're officially enemies is beside the point, I'm just grinning and acting nice in hopes the Ptolies wallop them so I can backstab them:smash: ) and, naturally, a spy would be out spying, wouldn't he? If he has the plague, maybe he doesn't know it until he falls ill...on his mission in Antioch:skull:
Ah, well I can certainly understand pulling such tricks then. Pontus needs every edge it can get early on.