Multiplayer rules thread

[Pharnakes]

OK, as we are nearing 32 people I thought I'd start a thread for some formal rules for the tournament, and to be genaerlay observed in gameplay, although it is of course entirley up to the players involved in a friendly, especialy about money. Well here are the main issues to vote on, if anyone can think of more please tell me and I'll add them.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Perhaps a restriction on elite units. It's not really fun to fight against 4 units of Hypaspistai... I thought of a 2 or 3 unit restriction of elites. I think we all agree elites are units like: Hypaspistai, Pheraspidai, Thorakitai Argyraspidai, Casse sword masters, Dosidateskeli, Prätorians and above.

[Moros]

No restriction on HA.
No experience or any other upgrades.
Perhaps max. 6 slingers might not be a bad idea, though.
I'd say just keep an army like it historically could exist, common sense.

Prices? infinitum, but no unit upgrades and a realistic army composition should be all. (can you even check if someone upgraded units?)

[Basileus Seleukeia]

No restriction on HA.
No experience or any other upgrades.
Perhaps max. 6 slingers might not be a bad idea, though.
I'd say just keep an army like it historically could exist, common sense.

Prices? infinitum, but no unit upgrades and a realistic army composition should be all. (can you even check if someone upgraded units?)

make the 6 slingers 2 and I'l sign it:laugh4:

[The Internet]

TBH you should look at the MP rules we had for RTR, it may not be the same game but most of them worked really well including rules like No HA armies and no more than 3 slingers or archers (since slingers in this game are so damn strong, having more than 3 wouldn't be fun), only a certain amount of elite units and no more than 4 units of cav (there were varations of this that had to do with if you had less elite cav you could have a little more normal skirmisher/light cav etc but that can be delt with later).

[bovi]

I won't be actively participating in a tournament. But I'd like to point out that there is no way to get more than 3 chevrons on units in multiplayer, so the options above that are impossible.

[Moros]

TBH you should look at the MP rules we had for RTR, it may not be the same game but most of them worked really well including rules like No HA armies and no more than 3 slingers or archers (since slingers in this game are so damn strong, having more than 3 wouldn't be fun), only a certain amount of elite units and no more than 4 units of cav (there were varations of this that had to do with if you had less elite cav you could have a little more normal skirmisher/light cav etc but that can be delt with later).
Don't you think it be ridiculous that if you play the sauromatae you can only have 4 cavalry units? It is ridiculous. That like a roman army with maximum 4 infantry units. And that is ridiculous, wouldn't you agree?

[Lovejoy]

Don't you think it be ridiculous that if you play the sauromatae you can only have 4 cavalry units? It is ridiculous. That like a roman army with maximum 4 infantry units. And that is ridiculous, wouldn't you agree?
I know that in RTR, HA armies DIDNT work at ALL. They were simply too good. The guy who choosed a HA army won every time. At the end everybody used them. Ive played alot of MP with friends and with the RTR-guys back in the days. HAs armies breaks the game.

[d'Arthez]

Perhaps a restriction on certain units? That for every HA you select you are allowed to pick 1 unit less? And for elites 1 unit less as well?

HA factions were undoubtedly seriously outnumbered when they fought infantry based armies.

[Pharnakes]

Possibilty for horse archers, not nesecary for elites, elites are expensive, HAs aren't.

[d'Arthez]

Yes, but 45.000 Mnai will still allow you to field 10 units of Agyraspirai with some backup harassment from slingers. Not really balanced either.

Perhaps a ratio that for every elite two non-elite units should be fielded as well (possibly with slingers not counting for the purpose of such a rule)?

It is hard to come up with rules that encourage historical army compositions.

[Fondor_Yards]

Why limit HA at all? This isn't RTR. Has anyone played a large number of battles vs an all/most HA army and found it can't be beaten by basicly anything? If so, then we should limit it. Otherwise, let's see if they are too strong or not before we limit them.

[The Internet]

It may not be RTR but the same idea is still applicable to EB and i've also noticed that cav in EB tend to be a lot stronger than they were in RTR (in my campaign, the enemy cav can charge straight into my legionaries and stay there slugging it out untill they get flanked where as in RTR they were like glass and no one would ever dare charge infantry from the front) so it could be even more of a problem in EB.


Would someone like to test a HA army out in MP and see what the facts are before we start going in circles about this?

[Captian Cornelius]

Voted for six horse archers so Parthian historical armies can be built.
Voted for three slingers cause I can't see an army fielding more than that in real life.
Voted 1 black smith 'case that's what you get in the game.
Voted 3 exp because that seems what a 'veteran' would be to me.
Didn’t vote for money because I think that should be decided on in game.

[Pharnakes]

The point of the money vote is for the tourney, not for individual battles, when it is up to the players concerned.

[Sarkiss]

It may not be RTR but the same idea is still applicable to EB and i've also noticed that cav in EB tend to be a lot stronger than they were in RTR (in my campaign, the enemy cav can charge straight into my legionaries and stay there slugging it out untill they get flanked where as in RTR they were like glass and no one would ever dare charge infantry from the front) so it could be even more of a problem in EB.


Would someone like to test a HA army out in MP and see what the facts are before we start going in circles about this?
im willing to do it tomorrow, if my internet is still up.
im not sure i agree about strength of EB's cavalry. i really think their charges, regardless distance to the target, were far more devastaiting in RTR than in EB where you need to calculate the distance.

[Reno Melitensis]

I suggest that all ordinary infantry should have exp. rating on the type of infantry they are. For example levies and citizen militia should have on chevron, light infantry two and so on. Elites and Triari should be the more experienced, like Companian Cavalry, and the General bodyguard. So in a few words I thing that there should be a guide line and rules to take an army to battle.

Cheers.

[bovi]

Relative experience from unit type to unit type is reflected in their base stats.

[Lovejoy]

Not only is HAs overpowerd (prob). They are reeeeally boring to fight too :P

[QwertyMIDX]

As one of the main EB staters, PLEASE don't use lots of experience, it completely breaks the stat system and we're working internally on a way to make it less problematic.

[Geoffrey S]

I recall reading someone saying experience will be disabled in future builds, or at least limited; is that correct?

[Sarkiss]

Relative experience from unit type to unit type is reflected in their base stats.
...thus no need to add chevrons. imho, it'd make things less complicated.

[bovi]

Hehe, and 4 people have voted for 9 experience even though it's impossible :laugh4:. Still, a majority wants at least 3 chevrons so far (12 versus 6 who want less than 3), so it appears to be no holds barred on experience.

[mAIOR]

well, I think that HA (in my gaming experience) are only overpowered against celtic type factions (meaning factions whose soldiers have little armor) if you try with an army of HA to pit against an army of a civilized faction with higly armored troops, you'll find that they are less than effective. Now, I think armored HA should be limited as those guys are Catraphacts no matter how you put it. It should vary from faction to faction for instance Parthia should be able to field more HA than AS for instance...
Just my 2cts...
Oh and im'plement that rule where HA after depleting arrows are forced to charge so they don't go and run around tiring the enemy.

Cheers...

[QwertyMIDX]

There should also be no weapon upgrades for missile troops. They're disabled in EB and shouldn't be in multi-player.

[Pharnakes]

How do you define missile troops though?

[QwertyMIDX]

Well the game defines it as anyone with a ranged weapon. For the purposes of this you could just do slingers and archers though.

[mAIOR]

And skirmishers...
Well, I believe the best way would be to make weapon upgrades impossible so only armor would be increased. That'd also take efectiveness away from the HA.
We could however do a new EDU for multiplayer where HA cost a lot more. I mean keeping a horse was expensive enough for anybody so they should cost more than most infantry...
For instance, Armenian HA are only 40mnai per turn more expensive than Tureophoroi and the Scythian are even cheaper...


Cheers...

[d'Arthez]

But then you can argue elephants should be cheapened as well.

[The Internet]

To be honest battles with anymore than 2-3 HA's is annoying. Being one of the old RTR MP vets and having fouhgnt against a few HA armies in my time i can tell you from experience that you end up just wanting to cry. It's like trying to swat a fly buzzing around your head when you don't have any hands so you just end up looking like an idiot running all over the place and just wishing you had a way to end the battle successfully.


In all seriousness though, it is quite annoying and just doesn't have the same intensity and excitement of two great battle lines clashing together while great cavarly skirmishers battle on the flanks to gain the upper hand so that they can have a chance to turn the tide of battle while reserves are rushed in to keep front lines from buckling and allowing the enemy to tear right through the middle and destroy any chance of victory and more importantly... survival.


.... There is a point in there somewhere. :sweatdrop:


Edit: and elephants aren't really the same since they are pretty useless in MP to be honest because it's the first thing people go for, they're generally very expensive and take up space (and money) in your army which could be used to field something more useful.

[Fondor_Yards]

Um the steppe people, who were very poor, were able to field huge amounts of HA, there's no reason they should cost more then infantry. Everyone out in the steppe had at least one horse, if you didn't you were probably dead. Nobles had what, several thousand of them? If anything, HA current cost too much and should have their costs dropped down a tad.

I find slowly wittling away an enemy's army with arrows from afar, then crushing their forces underfoot with a mighty cataphract charge to be just as exciting and fun, or even more then an infantry battle.

So has anyone done a HA battle?

[Pharnakes]

Its fun for you, less fun for the impotent infantry comander...


especialy if they have artilery:sweatdrop:

[Fondor_Yards]

Then the impotent infantry comander can learn how to kill cavalry. It's rather easy, normal HA like the defensive and attack stats of a small child.

[The Internet]

If you can find someone willing to battle you with a HA army then thats great, but good luck to you. :laugh4:

[mAIOR]

The step people had tons of horses but that doesn't mean they were cheap. Take horses (war horses mind you) in Greece or Rome. they were a luxury only affordable by rich people..
It depended on the culture I guess. And as far as HA are concerned, as I said, thdey're a real advantage against unarmored civs but, against civs like the Diadochi or Romans, they're usefullness is only marginal provided you don't let them outflank you. Even so, they won't be so usefull. In RTR they were way overpowered (I remember testing sarmatia out and being able to trash armies 3X the size of mine because of the attack value of arrows being 6 or something. that with the fact that every single unit were archers and the foot nobles doubled as elite spearmen... that was an easy camapign...
In EB with the reduced attack and the heavy armor of some units (from 10 armor (without counting shields or DS just armor) upwards things get tricky to HA from the front. And with 12 armor even the flanks get tricky...
Not to mention dosidataskelli or thorakitai agriaspidai as those guys are invulnerable to arrows. Only slings from the flanks seem to have marginal success against those beasts...


Cheers...

[Pharnakes]

Yeah, I do remember playng fondor, when he had half a dozen HAs, He took out my slingers and archers, i the end I just sent out a unit of thorakitai argyraspiadai to sit in the middle of the field, and only one of them died from protracted arrow fire.

[Fondor_Yards]

Actually, it does mean they were cheap. If your basic, dirt poor peasant steppe guy can get a horse. A horse was costly for normal folks because, a number of things, somethings they need to import the horse and gear, ship in/buy proper food, hire someone to train and horse and the guy to ride, and such. A steppe pony *which is what your normal HA ride*, would have those problems. A real warhorse *like a Nisean* yea would cost a pretty penny, and thats why only the heavy nobles and cataphracts have them*which are in turn pretty expensive.*

Heh yea. Dam artillery, there was those like last 4 guys who keep going go back to man them. Luckily that last unit of HA unrouted, I was able to get the last ones and some slingers/archers with him.

[[EB]Demulon]

For the sake of the tournament, the only rule concerning HA's should be eastern versus western factions. From my experiences, infantry-based armies such as Casee and Sweboz get messed up by HA arrows before the actual engagement begins. And in every game I have played against steppe factions, the players used fast Ha to run away and launch other volleys, resulting in half my army being mowed down before I can inflict a single casualty. So, for the sake of fairness, and somewhat realism, steppe factions should be limted to steppe/Hellenistic factions. If people want a steppe battle it would be best if it were arranged as such.

Peace