View Full Version : What is a Christian
Gawain of Orkeny
06-11-2007, 17:31
This thread is also inspired by Navs thread and this from a new thread
jesus gave the golden rule to love god and he said that anyone can be forgiven by their loving god, when he died on the cross the purpose was to garentee no punishment for us, theres no judgement in christianity everyone is free, the most important gift, the gift of freedom is preserved in this) other religions have rules and requirements as if such things are always linked with spirituality but i can not eat pork and still not love god i cannot love god and not love him...
What makes a person a Christian? Being a member of some Christian church? The belief that Jesus is god? Well these things do make you a Christian but is that the only way? I say no. Even though I claim not to be a Christian in the sense of Thomas Jefferson I am as good if not a better Christian than many who belong to such churches.
Thomas Jefferson
in proof that I am a real Christian, that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus, very different from the Platonists, who call me infidel and themselves Christians and preachers of the gospel, while they draw all their characteristic dogmas from what its author never said nor saw. They have compounded from the heathen mysteries a system beyond the comprehension of man, of which the great reformer of the vicious ethics and deism of the Jews, were he to return on earth, would not recognize one feature. If I had time I would add to my little book the Greek, Latin and French texts, in columns side by side. And I wish I could subjoin a translation of Gosindi's Syntagma of the doctrines of Epicurus, which, notwithstanding the calumnies of the Stoics and caricatures of Cicero, is the most rational system remaining of the philosophy of the ancients, as frugal of vicious indulgence, and fruitful of virtue as the hyperbolical extravagances of his rival sects.
What a great man. Even if he did own slaves:whip:
doc_bean
06-11-2007, 17:38
You're a Christian of you think of yourself as a Christian.
The different churches often have stronger criteria though.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-11-2007, 17:42
ou're a Christian of you think of yourself as a Christian.
So one who merely follows the teachings of Jesus is not a Christian? Also isnt that a bit simple Im sure you will get some flak from Christians on that remark.
doc_bean
06-11-2007, 17:44
So one who merely follows the teachings of Jesus is not a Christian? Also isnt that a bit simple Im sure you will get some flak from Christians on that remark.
Well, if he doesn't think of himself as a Christian, he probably doesn't mind not being classfied as one :laugh4:
It is simple, but a stricter definition will include bias and will inevitably consider some groups which consider themselves (the one true group of) Christians as non-Christians, which is a judgmeent only the Christian God, should he exist, should be able to make.
Byzantine Mercenary
06-11-2007, 17:56
well i believe the term christian was originally an insult used against the followers of christ, its not realy important its just a general word for those who follow various forms of jesus's teaching
What makes a person a Christian?
A Christian is one who believes Jesus is the Christ. Conduct is a separate issue.
Lorenzo_H
06-11-2007, 21:20
A Christian generally:
1. Accepts the Bible as the word of God.
- Therefore believes in God.
2. Wishes to carry out the will of this God.
3. Accepts that Jesus Christ is
i) A perfect example of how we should live our lives.
ii) that we have fallen short of this standard of perfection.
iii) and therefore deserve punishment for failing to comply with God's supreme plan for the universe.
4. Accepts that Jesus Christ made a great sacrifice by allowing himself to die in our place as a perfect sacrifice without blemish.
i) note that Jesus proved he was sovereign over death by rising from the dead.
5. And therefore can once again be holy and pure.
Christianity is NOT a religion. It is a relationship with God. You either accept Christ, or you hate him; I guess that is one way of differentiating Christian from non Christian, although there are some Christ-admirers who refuse to accept that he was in fact, God in the form of a man and that he has the power to save us.
Sub note: the figure Satan is heavily involved in Christian beliefs. He is:
a) The antithesis of God, hating God's standard
b) And trying to destroy everything God created, including you.
c) He is however, subject to God having been originally a creation of God's.
Note on Heaven and Hell:
Try not to think of Heaven as the place where the good guys go when they die to get good stuff and have a happy time, and try to avoid the stereotypical depiction of hell as a place of fire and torment. From what I know, these two descriptors do apply, but try to think of Heaven=with God, and Hell=seperation from God. These are the main factors.
Some people believe the Heavenly world exists in another Dimension (it has been scientifically verified that there are at least 11 dimensions, including the 4 with which we relate; 1st Dimension, 2nd Dimension, 3rd Dimension and what we call Time). They believe that there are 7 parts to the Heavenly realm, the most secluded part being Hell, and a physical and immpassable gap between these dimensions, and that residents of hell, poor guys, can see into heaven but not be there (and this is the extent of the torture, I hope). I personally think that theory is just a scientific effort to express what we cannot. It's also slightly off topic.
While that explanation proves useful, there's a much shorter and simpler way of telling what a Christian is: a Christian is an entity seeking comfort, solace, strength, etc., by believing and praying to a so-called entity they assume exists, even if it cannot be proven, and they take the word of any well-positioned human being of the kirk seriously, as they'd follow them blindly most likely.
ajaxfetish
06-11-2007, 22:39
A Christian generally:
1. Accepts the Bible as the word of God.
- Therefore believes in God.
2. Wishes to carry out the will of this God.
3. Accepts that Jesus Christ is
i) A perfect example of how we should live our lives.
ii) that we have fallen short of this standard of perfection.
iii) and therefore deserve punishment for failing to comply with God's supreme plan for the universe.
4. Accepts that Jesus Christ made a great sacrifice by allowing himself to die in our place as a perfect sacrifice without blemish.
i) note that Jesus proved he was sovereign over death by rising from the dead.
5. And therefore can once again be holy and pure.
I think you're getting directly into the kind of bias that Doc Bean was worried about. Much of the Bible (in fact the entire Christian testament) was written after Jesus' death. Does this mean that his followers during his lifetime were not Christians? I think you'll find Christian sects that take issue with some of your other criteria as well.
Ajax
I do not even know what a Christian is any more. Over the past couple of months after having read a post by Dave and a post by Gawain, and then having some encounters with some Christians, I've had to rethink what a Christian is.
I used to think that Christians who subscribed to a "do nothing policy" were in fact not Christians and instead were words which I am banned from saying on the Org. :laugh4:
Yet upon further reflection, it seems I must acknowledge that Jesus did in fact have a "do nothing policy", so I can't really blame Christians for likewise subscribing to such a "do nothing policy".
However, I agree more with God of the Old Testament, who had anything but a "do nothing policy" and gave orders to put down all manner of debauchery with the full force of the law.
In addition to advocating a "do nothing policy", Jesus also said he did not come to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Which means that Jesus agrees with God of the Old Testament and everything he said, despite Jesus himself promoting an opposite message.
I no longer consider myself to be a Christian because I do not believe in Jesus' "do nothing policy" but rather I agree with God's "bold action policy". At the same time, I am not prepared to deny the divinity of Jesus. I do belive Jesus is indeed the Son of God.
I am confident that someone is not a Christian just because he says he is. Jesus said that not everyone who says to him "Lord, Lord" will enter into the Kingdom. In other words, according to Jesus, calling/thinking of one's self as a follower of Christ aka" Christian" is not sufficient on it's own for actually being a Christian.
It seems that although according to Jesus and the apostles, works cannot save you, one who proclaims Jesus' name ,yet his life is full of nothing but immoral works, still shall not be entering into the Kingdom.
Of course trying to make sense of all these contradictions and unclearness is no easy task, and I'm not sure it can be definitely done in a way which is not skewed by the flawed personal interpretations by man's inadequate mind. It's simply too complex of a thing for a man to figure out.
The only foolproof way to get an accurate answer to what Christian is would be for Jesus and God to directly say so in public, and then stay for a very long Q&A session afterwards so that there can be zero misunderstandings.
doc_bean
06-11-2007, 22:56
I am confident that someone is not a Christian just because he says he is. Jesus said that not everyone who says to him "Lord, Lord" will enter into the Kingdom. In other words, according to Jesus, calling/thinking of one's self as a follower of Christ aka" Christian" is not sufficient on it's own for actually being a Christian.
Being a christian and being right are two different things, even if one of the Christian 'cults' actually got it right. Does that make everyone who got it wrong non-christians ?
This is an impossible criteria to maintain since no one can answer the question of who is right (for all but the good Lord Himself, and he doesn't seem to like public appearances.)
And even if this was an answerable question, would all those who got it wrong even be non-chrsitians instead of misguided ones ?
a Christian is an entity seeking comfort,
Obviously you're not a Catholic...
KukriKhan
06-12-2007, 05:50
The only foolproof way to get an accurate answer to what Christian is would be for Jesus and God to directly say so in public, and then stay for a very long Q&A session afterwards so that there can be zero misunderstandings.
Now, wouldn't THAT be something? :)
Since that hasn't happened yet, I guess we fall back on that 'leap o'faith' thingee.
Seems awfully unfair though, don't you think? We are to live our lives in compliance with rules set down by someone/something we can't even see or perceive, to their satisfaction and standards on Judgment Day - surely a losing situation for most of us - except: if we 'hire' Jesus as our lawyer by 'believing' in him during life, he'll stick up for us that day, and we'll get a pass.
I agree; a Q&A would be handy.
A Christian is one who believes Jesus is the Christ. Conduct is a separate issue.
I think that' s the simplest and most straightforward definition- gets my vote.
doc_bean
06-12-2007, 07:14
A Christian is one who believes Jesus is the Christ. Conduct is a separate issue.
I think that' s the simplest and most straightforward definition- gets my vote.
This was my first idea too, but what is 'the Christ' ? Jesus=God is ehavily disputed by some, Jesus=Messiah is commonly accepted amongst christian, yet I do now some people who wouldn't subscribe to that. I also know people who refer to themselves as christians who don't believe the Jesus of the Bible is the historical Jesus. Who am I to say they can't call themselves christians ? How is anyone able to do that ?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe "christ" is just an Anglicization of christos, which means "anointed one." (I think it could also be read as "covered in oil.")
LorenzoH, how do you figure that the devil "figures prominently" in Christian belief? He doesn't have many appearances in the Bible. If anything, the medieval church elevated the status of Satan quite a lot, for reasons that escape me. A lot of Christians I know seem to think that Dante's Inferno and Milton's Divine Comedy are books of the Bible, which they are not.
As for a literalist, inerrant reading of the good book, I always thought the lack of that was one of the huge advantages Christianity historically had over other faiths. Take a long, hard look at how well literalism has worked out for the salafists.
This was my first idea too, but what is 'the Christ' ? Jesus=God is ehavily disputed by some, Jesus=Messiah is commonly accepted amongst christian, yet I do now some people who wouldn't subscribe to that. I also know people who refer to themselves as christians who don't believe the Jesus of the Bible is the historical Jesus. Who am I to say they can't call themselves christians ? How is anyone able to do that ?
I would put forth that acknowledging Jesus as the Christ would have to also acknowledge at some level his divine nature. I think there's an important distinction in "the Christ" as opposed to the literal definition of "christ". As such, I would not call anyone who denies Christ's divinity a Christian- I can't control what they want to call themselves though.
Seriously, if you're calling yourself Christian but don't think Jesus was divine, what are you saying? You believe he was covered in oil? The meaning of the Christian Christ is much more than the literal meaning of it's Greek root.
Samurai Waki
06-12-2007, 09:14
hmm. Well I do believe that if you believe that Christ is Your Lord and Savior that makes you a Christian. However, living by the examples that Christ has given humanity, or not depends on whether you could be considered a Good Christian or a Bad One.
On an Off-Note: I seem to remember reading somewhere that the Jews back in the Day looked at the Torah as being purely divine, and every word was to be taken as literal truth. One of the big problems the Jews had with Christ is that he challenged that belief, and that he firmly believed that not only should priests be able to read The Holy Scriptures, but all. This is why many people have a difficult time reading the bible, the Torah was written literally, the New Testament written as an open interpretation. I think it was an Early Christian belief that when the New Testament was written it was to be done in a fashion that would maintain Christ's enigmatic stature, This was done so that you're not supposed to know what is to be taken literally and what is to be interpreted personally. A Position I might add, that the Church has held onto since the beginning of their organization. Some however, have skewed this outlook on the bible, because it was never actually written in it. All in all, I have to say that the Bible remains one of the most mysterious pieces of work in all history, and should be revered as a part of our heritage, but at the same time feared in the way it can be misleading or cause misunderstanding.
My High School Teacher (I went to Catholic School) once said "The Bible Cannot be Read."
doc_bean
06-12-2007, 11:22
Seriously, if you're calling yourself Christian but don't think Jesus was divine, what are you saying? You believe he was covered in oil? The meaning of the Christian Christ is much more than the literal meaning of it's Greek root.
Some people believe Jesus was a prophet, but not the Messiah. Some people believe Jesus was a spirtual leader, like Buddha, not a god but an enlightened human who educated us and shown us 'the way'.
Especially with catholics there's a huge group of non-believers (or partial believers) who go to mass for the sake of tradition or 'community spirit' or because they just find it enlightening (on an intellectual level).
CountArach
06-12-2007, 11:37
I will always apply the term Christian to one who believes that Christ is their saviour.
Ignoramus
06-12-2007, 11:46
A Christian is a person who:
- acknowledges themselves to be a sinner and that the only way of salvation is by confessing that they are a sinner to God, surrending their life to Jesus, and trusting God for their forgiveness.
- believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
- believes that Bible is the infallable word of God.
- believes that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.
- believes that Jesus rose again from the dead.
Rodion Romanovich
06-12-2007, 11:53
What makes a person a Christian?
A Christian is someone who believes in the Christian God in a way that isn't considered heretical by his church community at the moment.
Lorenzo_H
06-12-2007, 13:03
Every time I say something controversial, I expect people to disagree. There are varying opinions and such, but I gave you a (biased) opinion, and you will all give yours. There is no such thing as an objective view on Christianity. I do not want to read the term "blind faith" anywhere; it annoys me greatly because all faith is blind - thats what the word means.
I wonder; are any of you here of the opinion that there is no truth? I don't know if its related...
Gawain of Orkeny
06-12-2007, 13:18
I would put forth that acknowledging Jesus as the Christ would have to also acknowledge at some level his divine nature. I think there's an important distinction in "the Christ" as opposed to the literal definition of "christ". As such, I would not call anyone who denies Christ's divinity a Christian- I can't control what they want to call themselves though.
What do we mean by divine nature. That he is god or that he is inspired by god. Is god so vain that he need be worshiped? That you must bow down to him and praise him. That you must recognise him as your master? I dont think so. Was Mohamed divine?
Seems awfully unfair though, don't you think? We are to live our lives in compliance with rules set down by someone/something we can't even see or perceive, to their satisfaction and standards on Judgment Day - surely a losing situation for most of us - except: if we 'hire' Jesus as our lawyer by 'believing' in him during life, he'll stick up for us that day, and we'll get a pass.
Exactly.
Now according to many of you Thomas Jefferson wasnt a christian yet he claims to be a true christian. Then there is always the little thing about translations. Ive heard many a time Jesus never claimed to be the son of god and that he was misinterpreted. He claimed to be a son of god as are we all. That if we all live according to the rules put forth by him we too can reside with our father in heaven. God had sent him to show us the light. Not to worship him.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-12-2007, 13:46
A Christian is a person who:
- acknowledges themselves to be a sinner and that the only way of salvation is by confessing that they are a sinner to God, surrending their life to Jesus, and trusting God for their forgiveness.
- believes that Jesus is the Son of God.
- believes that Bible is the infallable word of God.
- believes that Jesus died on the cross for their sins.
- believes that Jesus rose again from the dead.
I'm afraid you're wrong.
A Christian is quite simply someone who believes Jesus was The Christ (The Anointed One) otherwise known as the Messiah, the profecied king of the Jews.
A follower of Jesus' teachings is not a Christian, nor is someone who believes he was the Son of God unless they also believe he was the Messiah.
Several Christian sects refused to accept Jesus as divine and several others refused to accept him as mortal. They're still Christians because they believe he was the Messiah.
In fact, Muslims are are also, strictly speaking, Christians because they acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah.
Don Corleone
06-12-2007, 13:47
Nm. ~:(
Zaknafien
06-12-2007, 13:59
you could make an arugment that the Catholic church and its Protestant off-shoots are not Christians at all, where the so-called "gnostic" followers of Christ are the originals. Their form of Christianity was so different than what is accepted as orthodoxy today, and theirs was much older too.
KukriKhan
06-12-2007, 14:14
I caution all that, whatever your individual level of belief in or about religious figures and doctrine, that your comments about them maintain respect and dignity toward the people who hold those beliefs - individually, and collectively.
Pick a religion apart, argue for or against a tenet of faith = OK. Bash = not OK.
Thank you for your time. :bow:
While that explanation proves useful, there's a much shorter and simpler way of telling what a Christian is: a Christian is an entity seeking comfort, solace, strength, etc., by believing and praying to a so-called entity they assume exists, even if it cannot be proven, and they take the word of any well-positioned human being of the kirk seriously, as they'd follow them blindly most likely.
A very European point of view. Indeed, christians are dust covered relics from the old times, in great contrast with muslims who are deeply spiritual and very concious of their traditions :laugh4:
Zaknafien
06-12-2007, 14:20
wouldn't followers of the dozens of other Messiahs be called Christians as well, then?
Devastatin Dave
06-12-2007, 14:54
If you believe that Jesus dies for your sins, then your a Christian. Also if you are being chased around with pitch forks and torches and possibly a rope held by liberals, you're a Christian.:laugh4:
Also if you are being chased around with pitch forks and torches and possibly a rope held by liberals, you're a Christian.:laugh4:
:laugh4:
A Christian is one who believes Jesus is the Christ. Conduct is a separate issue.
I think that' s the simplest and most straightforward definition- gets my vote.
:bow:
This was my first idea too, but what is 'the Christ' ? Jesus=God is ehavily disputed by some, Jesus=Messiah is commonly accepted amongst christian, yet I do now some people who wouldn't subscribe to that.
The label Christ does refer to Messiah as it is simply the anglicization of the Greek for Messiah. To affirm Jesus is the Christ is thereby to affirm his Messiahship. The meaning/content of Messiah could be disputed, but arguing something at ignored the larger Jewish backdrop from which the term derives would be problematic. In simplest terms the word refers to some salvatory role: either soteriological, political or both.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-12-2007, 19:51
wouldn't followers of the dozens of other Messiahs be called Christians as well, then?
Interesting question. The word "Christ" is, as Pidar noted, the anglicisation of the Greek for Messiah (i.e. annointed one), so I suspect that most would argue it was Jesus specific because of the universality of Christianity.
Other Messiahs would not have Greek follows supposedly.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-12-2007, 23:11
In fact, Muslims are are also, strictly speaking, Christians because they acknowledge Jesus as the Messiah.
They most certainly do not.
The label Christ does refer to Messiah as it is simply the anglicization of the Greek for Messiah. To affirm Jesus is the Christ is thereby to affirm his Messiahship. The meaning/content of Messiah could be disputed, but arguing something at ignored the larger Jewish backdrop from which the term derives would be problematic. In simplest terms the word refers to some salvatory role: either soteriological, political or both.
It does not follow that he has to be devine or god just anointed by him.
you could make an arugment that the Catholic church and its Protestant off-shoots are not Christians at all, where the so-called "gnostic" followers of Christ are the originals. Their form of Christianity was so different than what is accepted as orthodoxy today, and theirs was much older too.
I have to agree with Zak on that. Heck how many books were left out of the bible?
So all of you maintain that one who follows the philoshopy of Christ is not a Christian unless they believe he is god?
The label Christ does refer to Messiah as it is simply the anglicization of the Greek for Messiah. To affirm Jesus is the Christ is thereby to affirm his Messiahship. The meaning/content of Messiah could be disputed, but arguing something that ignored the larger Jewish backdrop from which the term derives would be problematic. In simplest terms the word refers to some salvatory role: either soteriological, political or both.
It does not follow that he has to be devine...
My statement makes no reference to divinity. In fact it explicitly points out Messiah could be understood politically. Understanding Jesus as Divine is an orthodox position within Christianity, but there are clear examples of Christian sects especially prior to the Fourth Century who did not hold that view.
So all of you maintain that one who follows the philoshopy of Christ is not a Christian unless they believe he is god?
I haven't argued that.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-13-2007, 02:55
I haven't argued that.
Good because I hate to argue with you.:laugh4:
Strike For The South
06-13-2007, 03:03
A chiristian is someone who belives in Jesus and somone who strives to spread good will and the giid book
AntiochusIII
06-13-2007, 03:39
somone who strives to spread good will and the giid bookPindar noted, and I agree, that conduct is separate of belief. :balloon:
Papewaio
06-13-2007, 03:47
Wouldn't an alignment of belief and actions be a mark of integrity and hence a good Christian?
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-13-2007, 10:22
They most certainly do not.
The call him Jusu The Christ, hense they believe he was the Messiah, but then so was David, and Cyrus the Great. The Latter was the Persian Great King.
So all of you maintain that one who follows the philoshopy of Christ is not a Christian unless they believe he is god?
I think I explicitly argued against that. Ever heard of Arianism?
Incongruous
06-13-2007, 11:56
Pindar noted, and I agree, that conduct is separate of belief. :balloon:
How so?
You mean conduct in relation to Christ's teachings?
Belief in Christ and striving to live by his teachings are inseperable if one considers one Christian, without the attempt to condcut oneself as Christ taught, the belief is a lame duck. One is simply labeling, without commiting.
Though thats my 2 cents.
Philippus Flavius Homovallumus
06-13-2007, 23:33
Except that you can follow his ethical teachings without believing the stories about him. So they can be seperated.
Incongruous
06-13-2007, 23:54
Oh you can still follow his teachings/philosophies. My dad is one such person, but he does not believe that Jesus was the Christ. In this way they can be seperated.
But if one states a belief in his divinity to call oneself a Christian one also strive to live by his teachings also. This is how one believes in him.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-14-2007, 00:12
This is how one believes in him.
This is how one is supposed to believe in him believes according to you. So tell me will a man who rarely sins and when he does is truly pentatent be less likely than someone who indeed believe that Jesus is all he cracked up to be but sins all the time and isnt really sorry for their sins? Besides you cannot help what you believe. This free choice stuff is nonsense. You either believe something or you dont until something or someone makes you believe different. I believe global warming is way over hyped and no one yet has led me to believe otherwise. Its not like I dont lookat the other side. Im like"How can anybody believe that?"
I think that the teachings of Christ are the best set of rules or philosophy that I have personally studied in depth. Jesus maybe God or he may not. It does not matter to me either way. I dont even care if he never existed. I try to follow the golden rule.
Incongruous
06-14-2007, 00:20
This is how one is supposed to believe in him believes according to you. So tell me will a man who rarely sins and when he does is truly pentatent be less likely than someone who indeed believe that Jesus is all he cracked up to be but sins all the time and isnt really sorry for their sins? Besides you cannot help what you believe. This free choice stuff is nonsense. You either believe something or you dont until something or someone makes you believe different. I believe global warming is way over hyped and no one yet has led me to believe otherwise. Its not like I dont lookat the other side. Im like"How can anybody believe that?"
I think that the teachings of Christ are the best set of rules or philosophy that I have personally studied in depth. Jesus maybe God or he may not. It does not matter to me either way. I dont even care if he never existed. I try to follow the golden rule.
Well ok, it does not matter that one has not lived according to Jesus teaching (sometime, due to exterior pressure this is impossible), but as long as one has strived to it, and is repentent about one's sins. That where it really lies for me, striving, is not the same as actually living like that. So, if you mess up due to you're choice of actions but you truly sorry, then you may not have lived as jesus said in that moment, but are now that you are truly repentent. Repentence is a keyston in how to believe in jesus.
This is of coarse just my beliefs.
I wasn't selling them as absolutes or anthing...:beam:
Gawain of Orkeny
06-14-2007, 00:29
Well ok, it does not matter that one has not lived according to Jesus teaching (sometime, due to exterior pressure this is impossible), but as long as one has strived to it, and is repentent about one's sins. That where it really lies for me, striving, is not the same as actually living like that. So, if you mess up due to you're choice of actions but you truly sorry, then you may not have lived as jesus said in that moment, but are now that you are truly repentent. Repentence is a keyston in how to believe in jesus.
So then what of the person who hardly sins and is sorry. Does it matter if he asks Jesus to forgive him? Is asking for gods forgiveness enough. Whoever or whatever that maybe? Does it matter?
Would such a person be a Christian in your book? What if one were to ask for Jesus to forgive him without believing he was god? Maybe he is god , but thats not the same as believing. I say the best we can do is try to follow the teachings of Jesus as we perceive them. Perception is everything. In my book if you are a follower of Christs teachings you are a christian.
Correct me if I'm wrong,
LorenzoH, how do you figure that the devil "figures prominently" in Christian belief? He doesn't have many appearances in the Bible. If anything, the medieval church elevated the status of Satan quite a lot, for reasons that escape me.
This is indeed quite incorrect. Satan was there with the first humans, and by conning them into committing sin for the first time, they ruined the world and everything in it.
Satan didn't stop there. He's done the same thing ever since to every human that has came after. Including Jesus Christ.
He is indeed vitally important to know about and does in fact figure prominently in the Bible.
Seems awfully unfair though, don't you think? We are to live our lives in compliance with rules set down by someone/something we can't even see or perceive, to their satisfaction and standards on Judgment Day - surely a losing situation for most of us - except: if we 'hire' Jesus as our lawyer by 'believing' in him during life, he'll stick up for us that day, and we'll get a pass.
As I get older and more enlightened, this is indeed becoming my biggest problem of all with God and Jesus Christ. They could have made things so simple by asserting their authority and making everyone see it. If there was ever to be a credible argument about God or Jesus being fake, the best one would be that they do not assert their authority or at least make themselves tangibly known to humans across all time periods. If only for the purpose of making their existance, authority, and everything humans are supposed to do crystal clear.
Incongruous
06-14-2007, 07:08
So then what of the person who hardly sins and is sorry. Does it matter if he asks Jesus to forgive him? Is asking for gods forgiveness enough. Whoever or whatever that maybe? Does it matter?
Would such a person be a Christian in your book? What if one were to ask for Jesus to forgive him without believing he was god? Maybe he is god , but thats not the same as believing. I say the best we can do is try to follow the teachings of Jesus as we perceive them. Perception is everything. In my book if you are a follower of Christs teachings you are a christian.
Hmm, good point.
Is simply following his teachings enough, is that infact the way to worship him? Im no theologian:shame:
Asking for Gods forgiveness or Jesus' is the same in my book. So it's a non-issue. I don't really get what you're trying to say about seeking forgiveness from Jesus, even if one does not believe him to be divine.
However in my book, if you're a follower of Christ's teachings you are simply a pacafist socialist, and overall good guy, which is what he envisioned.
But Christians as we know them popularly today are different from that, they have more of a cult, more of a belief, in effect what they have is religion. That's what being a Christian could be?:wall:
Gawain of Orkeny
06-14-2007, 13:35
Is simply following his teachings enough,
My whole thrust here has been does god need to be worshiped? Is he that vain?
. I don't really get what you're trying to say about seeking forgiveness from Jesus, even if one does not believe him to be divine.
Im using believe in the absolute sense meaning your sure he is god. Now if your not sure but you think there is a good chance so you pray to him just in case.:laugh4:
Im sure you would be amazed at how many people feel this way.
However in my book, if you're a follower of Christ's teachings you are simply a pacafist socialist, and overall good guy, which is what he envisioned.
But not a christian? Do I have to think Marx is divine to be a Marxist?
But Christians as we know them popularly today are different from that, they have more of a cult, more of a belief, in effect what they have is religion
Does that make them more of a christian than say Thomas Jefferson?
Regarding what a Christian is; indeed: Pindar's statement is very simple and most likely true.
Incongruous
06-15-2007, 02:34
My whole thrust here has been does god need to be worshiped? Is he that vain?
Im using believe in the absolute sense meaning your sure he is god. Now if your not sure but you think there is a good chance so you pray to him just in case.:laugh4:
Im sure you would be amazed at how many people feel this way.
But not a christian? Do I have to think Marx is divine to be a Marxist?
Does that make them more of a christian than say Thomas Jefferson?
Worshiped?
Well no, he simply needs to be believed in, or maybe just percieved to be a possability.
I'm willing to bet that nearly everyone, if not everyone, when they're dying comes to some personal acceptance of something else. Even if it's in no certain terms.
About people whom pray just in case,:laugh4: If that is the case Im am willing to bet that at ssome time in their life that little inkling of Gods existence will become something more. Even if it's on their deathbed.
As to you're Marxist thing, well I didn't realise that all Marxists believed that he was divine, that's probabaly because Im so damned ignorant of him. But yes, I think that in order for one to be a Christsian one has to believe in his divinity.
As for Jefferson, again being Christian I believe is having a religion. But that doesn't make them better people than Jefferson, just means that they are part of a religion. But didn't he own slaves?
If he did then yes most modern Catholics/Christians are better people than him, and this would be recognised by Jesus.
Again I do not think that simply acting the way Jesus perscribed makes one a Christian, Being a Christian also requires a leap of Faith.
Gawain of Orkeny
06-15-2007, 02:55
Worshiped?
Well no, he simply needs to be believed in, or maybe just percieved to be a possability.
Your as dodgy as me :laugh4: As I said perception is everything. Im sure most "Christians " wont agree with us on this. Notice how fast you backed out of your belief stance.
Again I do not think that simply acting the way Jesus perscribed makes one a Christian, Being a Christian also requires a leap of Faith.
If saying that all you need do is percieve there is a possibilty that he maybe god, I would not quite call that a leap:laugh4: More like a baby step.
As to you're Marxist thing, well I didn't realise that all Marxists believed that he was divine, that's probabaly because Im so damned ignorant of him
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
I almost choked on my food. No one I know of thinks hes divine :laugh4: Thats my point.
Incongruous
06-15-2007, 03:26
Your as dodgy as me :laugh4: As I said perception is everything. Im sure most "Christians " wont agree with us on this. Notice how fast you backed out of your belief stance.
If saying that all you need do is percieve there is a possibilty that he maybe god, I would not quite call that a leap:laugh4: More like a baby step.
:laugh4: :laugh4: :laugh4:
I almost choked on my food. No one I know of thinks hes divine :laugh4: Thats my point.
Well I actually go to church every sunday, so I do more than believe. What I meant to say is, perhaps believing and praying in private is enough, or maybe just a recognition, is enough for God. But then again, were never going to be given the fricken answer.
Again, worship is, well a bit, you know. I start thinking of monkeys when people say worship.:oops:
But again actually going to a church every sunday or so is a leap of faith.
Gah i'm frying my man brain.
Sorry about the Marx thing, I didn't realise:embarassed:
Gawain of Orkeny
06-15-2007, 03:41
Well I actually go to church every sunday, so I do more than believe.
Are you sure you even believe or do you like I think there is a possiblity he was or is god? The difference between the two means everything in this argument. Going to church if you dont believe doesnt mean much now does it. Now we are back to what does "believe" mean?
What I meant to say is, perhaps believing and praying in private is enough, or maybe just a recognition, is enough for God. But then again, were never going to be given the fricken answer.
From this statement alone you can see why I asked this question. You are quite convoluted in your statements. You take all the positions I mentioned and then go back to you have to believe. Then maybe not :laugh4: I would imagine you are quite normal in this respect however and that most people are not sure. They would like to believe at this stage of the game. If on your death bed the notion that you are not dying but going to a better place gives you comfort than I submit religion has done its job.
The only time I go to church is for funerals. The wake is so depressing . But going to the church afterward can be very uplifting. We had a thread here a bit back about what is spirituality. Well at one of these masses you can cut it with a knife. You really get the sense that this has been going on for a long long time and you feel your connection to something greater than man. I cant put a finger on it but somehow it lifts you up. Im certain it is a group psyche thing.
Incongruous
06-15-2007, 07:13
Gah!
Well I do ferevntly believe in God, there's no questionin in my mind as to his existence.
I need to take time off this thread, Gawain.:embarassed:
Maybe tomorrow I might have something normal to post:sweatdrop:
doc_bean
06-15-2007, 10:25
My whole thrust here has been does god need to be worshiped? Is he that vain?
The question asked a million times by critical believers, agnostics and atheists alike.
The question asked a million times by critical believers, agnostics and atheists alike.
I qualify as a critical veliever then I guess, because when the bible says in heaven everybody sings and worships God, well, it can sound quite...boring.:shrug:
I think I'm currently in a vacuum concerning my beliefs, I do believe God exists, but I still have doubts about certain things. In the end I cannot decide for either, I just wish there was no decision to be made because I fear I'll never be able to decide, in church there are many intelligent people who say they have so many great experiences with God, well, I don't, not that I know of. Here, on the dark side( ~;) ) there are many intelligent people who say it's all bollocks anyway and bring some arguments I cannot refute, then again, science has it's holes as well. Doesn't mean I don't like science, I'm just aware that if science says God doesn't exist, they can't prove it either. I feel like I'm somewhere in between and cannot decide for either side. And before I feel like I'm talking too much about myself again, I'll stop here.:sweatdrop:
Logic is the way. We must train it, practise it, rationality. There must be scientific and philosophical activity.
While I prefer the previous things I just uttered, I am in conflict due to the fact I do believe in a divine entity that is God. But the reason therefor is simple: it had been put into my mind from birth for many a year and is so deeply nested even cold hard rationality can't totally rid the idea or habit (though many times I seem to forget the idea while distracted).
Logically I say this: I see no proof He exists and I see no proof He doesn't exist, but it is plausible He doesn't. But plausibility is not sufficient especially in this case.
EDIT:
Well, it seems Husar kind of made my point already regarding who's right or wrong.
Kralizec
06-15-2007, 20:35
This is indeed quite incorrect. Satan was there with the first humans, and by conning them into committing sin for the first time, they ruined the world and everything in it.
Satan didn't stop there. He's done the same thing ever since to every human that has came after. Including Jesus Christ.
He is indeed vitally important to know about and does in fact figure prominently in the Bible.
If I recall correctly, satan is a Hebrew word that means "accuser" or "slanderer" and is used to refer to evil spirits, as the ancient Jews didn't believe in a Satan with a capital S, being the archnemesis of God.
I also agree with Pindar. It makes for no debate, but it is correct.
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