Maybe because they're not meant to live in an aquarium.

[Devastatin Dave]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070613/ap_on_re_us/whale_shark_dies
I've been wanting to head back home to the ATL and check this place out, but I don't think I want to give money to a place that keeps killing whale sharks. Whale sharks are a filter feeder and I just don't see how one of these fish would be able to survive in an aquarium (granted, its a huge aquarium, but an aquarium just the same). Now, I'm not against aquariums or people keeping fich (I have 2 myself) but I am against keeping fish, aquatic animals, invertabrates, etc) if the survival rate is not good. That's one of the reasons why I got out of the pet industry, in particular, the salt water part of it. i worked at a salt water whole seller for a year. It was sad seeing all those fish die through either shipping or just shock. God, I'd estimate that maybe only 10% of aqautic life make it to home aquariums, even less for live rock and stuff like that.

Anyway, I understand the arguements for species preservation, etc, but can you guys see my point. I just hate seeing these fantastic creatures die like this.:no:

[Odin]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070613/ap_on_re_us/whale_shark_dies
I've been wanting to head back home to the ATL and check this place out, but I don't think I want to give money to a place that keeps killing whale sharks. Whale sharks are a filter feeder and I just don't see how one of these fish would be able to survive in an aquarium (granted, its a huge aquarium, but an aquarium just the same). Now, I'm not against aquariums or people keeping fich (I have 2 myself) but I am against keeping fish, aquatic animals, invertabrates, etc) if the survival rate is not good. That's one of the reasons why I got out of the pet industry, in particular, the salt water part of it. i worked at a salt water whole seller for a year. It was sad seeing all those fish die through either shipping or just shock. God, I'd estimate that maybe only 10% of aqautic life make it to home aquariums, even less for live rock and stuff like that.

Anyway, I understand the arguements for species preservation, etc, but can you guys see my point. I just hate seeing these fantastic creatures die like this.:no:

I saw this online today as well. My personal opinion is that perserving species should be an excersise conducted in thier habitat. As far as display, and aquariums well I've always been on the fence with large scale zoo's.

I understand the benefits, but would rather have them in the wild where they belong.

[Ser Clegane]

I fully agree, Dave - if you cannot provide an acceptable habitat for the animals (i.e. that guarantees not only a good survival rate but also makes sure that they do not go completely nuts), then abstain from keeping them at your zoo/aquarium/home etc.

A couple of years ago my wife and eye had the "pleasure" to visit the aquarium at Osaka. They also had whale sharks there (and quite some other large fish) but most of the animals they kept there did not look very well. Also none (or almost none) of the aquariums provided e.g. hiding places - of course that's great for the visitors who come to see the animals but it's certainly not very pleasant for the animals that have to live there.

Better keep less animals and make sure that you provide well for them - I'd prefer visiting a less spectacular zoo/aquarium with animals that can still show natural behaviour to watching lots of exotic animals that look like they would rather die.

[Devastatin Dave]

Also none (or almost none) of the aquariums provided e.g. hiding places - of course that's great for the visitors who come to see the animals but it's certainly not very pleasant for the animals that have to live there.

Thats another issue I have. A couple of friends came ove the other night and had a look at my tanks. They were like "Where's the fish?" I told them I had 4 Angels, 6 dwarf frogs, 3 clown loaches, 4 tiger barbs, and some serpea tetras. They saw a couple of them but thought I was full of it. Well, its a planted tank. Lots of great hiding spots. I've had most of these animals since I started the tank back in 05. I've lost 1 frog and 1 angel since then. THEY HAVE PLENTY OF HIDING AREAS. I understand that you want people to see your animals but it cause a lot of stress to them. You have idiots taping on the glass, flashes from cameras, etc. Also, a lot of these animals rest during th day and are nocternal. But no hiding areas means death to these creatures.
Again, I do understand the need for science and preservation, but I think the whale sharks, being filter feeders, would be better served out in the ocean.:yes:

[Blodrast]

So, call me a wuss or whatever, but I get horribly, horribly depressed and sad every time I go to the local (more or less) pet shelter... and see a lot of cats (I usually go to cats, but I'm sure things are similar with dogs and the other animals), with all the life, with all the glimmer, completely gone out of their eyes. They lost all hope. They're mostly lying there, waiting... I dunno, whatever they can wait for, probably death.

The older ones, they've been there for years, and they'll probably end up in the same cages, because most people just buy "teh cute kittens, awwww", but the older ones are left there for years on end...

It literally breaks my heart to even remember how desperate they are for human attention, how they follow you with their eyes and cry, so that maybe, just maybe, you'll stick your finger through the bars and give them a few seconds of attention, a pet and a few words.

Some are even beyond that, and just lie there half-asleep most of the time, and they probably don't really care about anything anymore.

I'm not a PETA fan, or pro-animal freak, I eat meat, etc. But I believe that we should do our best to protect the other species as much as we can, and to try to give them a chance to a decent life.
There are few issues that I get so emotional as animal cruelty (in any form, including the "pet" status - I hate irresponsible people who take pets and treat them more or less as furniture, and don't take proper care of them, or discard them as you would an old toy when they are no longer cute/convenient/too difficult to take care of/etc).

[Don Corleone]

I'm with you Blodrast. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do was visit the local animal shelter when my dog was missing. She was gone for 3 weeks, and twice a day, every day, I had to walk through the entire dog cage section. It broke my heart because I knew over 3/4 of the animals in those cages were headed for the gas chamber. They knew it too.

I don't think you have to be a PETA fanatic to agree animals deserve decent care. I hunt, but I won't eat veal. I don't see any contradiction there.

[Blodrast]

I'm with you Blodrast. One of the hardest things I've ever had to do was visit the local animal shelter when my dog was missing. She was gone for 3 weeks, and twice a day, every day, I had to walk through the entire dog cage section. It broke my heart because I knew over 3/4 of the animals in those cages were headed for the gas chamber. They knew it too.

I don't think you have to be a PETA fanatic to agree animals deserve decent care. I hunt, but I won't eat veal. I don't see any contradiction there.

Don, why would they be headed for the gas chamber ?!

[Don Corleone]

Well, I always assumed this was a universal phenomenon, but perhaps it's yet one more example of America's irresponsible disposable culture.....

People get animals as pets (dogs, cats, you name it). Then they move, or they get tired of their pet, or the pet pees on some furniture or what have you. And they abandon it. Or they have a litter of kittens/puppies and their owners abandon these. Sooner or later these abandoned animals find their way to the local shelters. Now, there's hard calculus of life at stake here. In order to take in new strays, the shelter will eventually have to make room by getting rid of some (or many) that don't get placed. Those animals that don't get placed after a certain period of time, or those that get deemed as unadoptable (due to abuse/neglect/illness/injury) usually get gassed right away.

Some heartless buggers actually take their now-unwanted pets down to the shelter themselves, comforting themselves with the lie that Sparky will have a new owner by nightfall.

This is why I hate pet-stores so badly. If you're looking for a Blue Tick Hound because you want to hunt or you want an Akita because you're getting into breeding, fine. But the vast majority of Americans just want a pet. Go to the damn shelter. And if really just have to have a pedigreed dog, go to a repubatable breeder. $300 for a purebred German Shepherd? Not possible, unless the animal is the result of a puppy-mill.

[Samurai Waki]

The Wifey and Me Agreed that we would only buy animals from the Shelter. Usually every Saturday, we'd go to the Shelter and walk the dogs around and play with them, just so they could get some love and attention from someone, even if we couldn't actually keep them (although it happens less often with the Babies... Ally gets very jittery around the dogs; Liv on the other hand...~:rolleyes: ) but needless to say, it just about breaks my heart every time I go there. We actually saved an entire litter of Kittens from the Gas Chamber though, adopted em' all, got them strong and healthy, and made sure that we gave them to good loving homes.

Thats a job I'm thankful I don't have, of course it has its menacing appeal.

"What Do You Do Sir?"

"I kill furry little Kittens for a living."

[Blodrast]

Well, I always assumed this was a universal phenomenon, but perhaps it's yet one more example of America's irresponsible disposable culture.....

People get animals as pets (dogs, cats, you name it). Then they move, or they get tired of their pet, or the pet pees on some furniture or what have you. And they abandon it. Or they have a litter of kittens/puppies and their owners abandon these. Sooner or later these abandoned animals find their way to the local shelters. Now, there's hard calculus of life at stake here. In order to take in new strays, the shelter will eventually have to make room by getting rid of some (or many) that don't get placed. Those animals that don't get placed after a certain period of time, or those that get deemed as unadoptable (due to abuse/neglect/illness/injury) usually get gassed right away.

Some heartless buggers actually take their now-unwanted pets down to the shelter themselves, comforting themselves with the lie that Sparky will have a new owner by nightfall.

This is why I hate pet-stores so badly. If you're looking for a Blue Tick Hound because you want to hunt or you want an Akita because you're getting into breeding, fine. But the vast majority of Americans just want a pet. Go to the damn shelter. And if really just have to have a pedigreed dog, go to a repubatable breeder. $300 for a purebred German Shepherd? Not possible, unless the animal is the result of a puppy-mill.

Dave, apologies for kinda hijacking your thread, buddy.

Don, I am aware of the heartless bastards and their hypocritical reasons, and I'm aware of how and why animals end in shelter. I wasn't aware that they ... kill them after a while. That's the part I was inquiring about.
Please, don't be oversensitive on this - I was in no way attempting to make a jibe at America or anything like that, and I definitely don't want the discussion to stray in that direction; the reason I asked is because - well, let me explain.
I've been to that shelter quite a few times, and over a relatively long period of time. And I've recognized some of the animals every time (ergo, they'd been there for quite a while). I've also talked to the people who volunteer there, and they told me of some of the animals who'd been there for years.

Hence, I inferred that they'd keep them for as long as ... whatever, as long as they live. None of them mentioned putting them down. That doesn't mean they're not doing it, I'm just saying it doesn't seem that way...

That's why I was asking about your local shelter. I understand that there is a hard and cruel arithmetic here, and that if the shelter gets overcrowded, they have to make a choice: either don't accept more animals (bad), or put down some of the ones they have in there (also bad).
I guess my local shelter also faces overcrowdedness problems - I don't know how they deal with them, my guess (based on logic, not on facts, so I might well be wrong) was that they distribute the pets around to other branches. I.e., I assume that some branches are more crowded than others, based on location, so they can shift their surplus to other branches...

It is all more complicated because the shelters around here are run almost exclusively by volunteers (sure, there's some permanent personnel, but very, very few; most, the overwhelming majority, are all volunteers). Without funding (there's donations, but limited, naturally), you can't expand, and of course you can only take care of so many at any given time.

I agree with you that the solution lies in people becoming more responsible... but I think that's a rather unreachable ideal...

I don't even know why, because I don't think I'm such a great, caring, sensitive person - but every time I go there, it breaks my heart, and I won't be ashamed to admit that I sometimes cried. I don't know why it affects me so much, but it does.

I'll indulge in a hopefully brief rant. My apologies for this.
For the last couple of years I've been going through a miserable (psychologically, and emotionally speaking) period. I'm not looking for (and I actually resent) compassion, but I'm trying to explain the situation better. Friends, or even people I can talk to, are very, very scarce, and extremely difficult to come by, because of the environment I'm in - it's a long story, and not worth telling here/now. Loneliness has become an issue (strangely enough, since it never used to bother me). Depression, desperation, etc. Anyway, you get the picture. What's been making a huge difference, is the cat I got last September.
He's probably the most important thing that keeps me (at least for now) from becoming a hateful, spiteful man, full of bitterness and anger and venom. But I come home, and he is *happy* to see me, and he comes and sits on my lap, and he comes and sleeps on my chest at night, and he follows me around the house everywhere (including the bathroom), and if I even chastise him or shout at him for misbehaving, he lies down with his head on his paws and looks at me with huuge, puppy (heh) eyes... it cannot, it simply cannot, but melt your heart, and preserve the good, kind, warm-hearted feelings that most humans have.
Oh, and just to put things a bit more in perspective, this was a surprise to me, too, I didn't expect him to matter so much for me - even though I've had one or two cats at any given time for the last 19 years of my life, and I've raised 6 of them over the years (they are all with different parts of my family). So I know very well what a pet can do, how it can affect you, etc, etc. Yet this little guy means so much more than I anticipated...

/rant over

[Whacker]

The Wifey and Me Agreed that we would only buy animals from the Shelter. Usually every Saturday, we'd go to the Shelter and walk the dogs around and play with them, just so they could get some love and attention from someone, even if we couldn't actually keep them (although it happens less often with the Babies... Ally gets very jittery around the dogs; Liv on the other hand...~:rolleyes: ) but needless to say, it just about breaks my heart every time I go there. We actually saved an entire litter of Kittens from the Gas Chamber though, adopted em' all, got them strong and healthy, and made sure that we gave them to good loving homes.

Thats a job I'm thankful I don't have, of course it has its menacing appeal.

"What Do You Do Sir?"

"I kill furry little Kittens for a living."

You sir have gained an infinite amount of respect from me. I'm with Blodrast and the others, it seriously brings me to the brink of tears to think about all the animals that have to be put down due to human stupidity and neglect. It's also the reason I donate anonymously each year to the humane society, because I can't stand them sending me correspondence showing all the critters in their cages with that soul-destroying look on their faces. I think I need to go pet my dog now...

[Don Corleone]

Blodrast, I'm happy you found a friend. As for my post, I understand I probably overuse sarcasm and making defenses against arguments others have not actually made. In this case, I really was railing against the disposable American culture, not implying that you were. It's true. Americans are absolutely horrible pet-owners. We don't get our pets spayed or neutered. We go around buying up fad breeds that encourages puppy-mills. When we tire of our 'life-long friends', we get rid of them. I'm shocked and mortified by such behavior and if Europeans are better at keeping the numbers of strays in shelters down, I salute you. No stepping gingerly required, amigo. :beam:

[Slyspy]

In a shock discovery it turns out that Dave and I have something in common other the The Org. Sure, it may only be a fish tank and the amusing antics of dwarf frogs, but it is something! My frogs are actually out and about a fair bit despite living in an underwater jungle. But then there are no threats in the tank. The fish in the other tank are active for much the same reason - I chose the fish with careful consideration for their compatibility.

When I think of the troubles I had setting up and stocking my little tanks I can only imagine the difficulties (and, to be honest, the joys) of a six million gallon tank!

Sadly Don is correct about the fate of many sanctuary animals. I think here they use lethal injection, but I could be wrong.

Edit:

I don't have any statistics to help the US vs Euro pet treatment comparison. I suspect that neither situation is especially pretty.

[Blodrast]

Blodrast, I'm happy you found a friend. As for my post, I understand I probably overuse sarcasm and making defenses against arguments others have not actually made. In this case, I really was railing against the disposable American culture, not implying that you were. It's true. Americans are absolutely horrible pet-owners. We don't get our pets spayed or neutered. We go around buying up fad breeds that encourages puppy-mills. When we tire of our 'life-long friends', we get rid of them. I'm shocked and mortified by such behavior and if Europeans are better at keeping the numbers of strays in shelters down, I salute you. No stepping gingerly required, amigo. :beam:

No, no, no - substitute "humans" for "Americans" in your post, and then I'll agree with you. I don't believe Americans are better or worse at this than Europeans, or any other people. People are people, everywhere.
I'm somewhat aware of the disposable culture issue, and I dislike it as well. But it's by no means a North-American phenomenon, believe me - it permeates all the "first world" countries. As for the other countries, they just can't afford to do that, so, instead, there are no pet stores, and animals survive in the streets as best they can. The only reason there's no pet stores in Africa is because nobody could afford, or would buy, the animals. Not because they're better people.

And, since there seems to be a bit of ambiguity here, I never implied (and I don't believe) that Europeans are any better at it. However, you seem to be assuming that I was referring to a European shelter. I guess it's my fault for the confusion, since I haven't set my "location" field in my user cp.:oops: I am a European in the sense that I was born and lived in Europe for the first 24 years of my life, however, I've been living in North America for the last five, five-and-a-half years. The "local" shelter I was referring to is actually very close, geographically speaking, to you :beam:.

[Blodrast]

And Whacker is right, kudos to you and your wife, Wakizashi, for doing what you guys are doing.

I've been struggling to try to volunteer to that shelter I mentioned, but the problem is that they require a commitment of minimum 6 months - that's not a problem, but, unfortunately, I haven't been able to put my life in order for about 2 years now, and I am not yet organized enough to be able to do that properly - to the extent that I go to sleep at 4-5am, wake up after noon, work at night... chaotic. And I do feel ashamed of that, because I should make more of an effort... but so far, I haven't.:shame:

[Don Corleone]

OH! Well, I'm not certain if I feel better or worse that it's not a uniquely American thing to toss your pets away. I'm glad in that we're not more depraved than anyone else, sad that there's Dutch, German and French doggies sitting behind bars.

Well, unless I've seriously misinterpreted what I've heard from local shelters, and while I hope beyond hope I have, I don't think so, the average life expectancy of an animal at the pound, that's up for adoption, is 3 months. And that's just the ones they deem as placeable. Now some shelters may have a 'no kill' policy, but that would mean they can't accept as many new strays.

My rant wasn't against my countrymen, btw. It was against irresponsible pet owners. It never occurred to me that this is a phenomenon that occurs worldwide. Sad.

[Blodrast]

Hmm, I see - thank you for the info, Don. You make a good point - I hadn't considered that some may actually have a no-kill policy, while others may not. I'll have to ask them more specifically next time I go there.

[Devastatin Dave]

Dave, apologies for kinda hijacking your thread, buddy.



/rant over
No problem, just understand I won't respond because I'll get warnings. I hate animal shelter and the irresponsible **** ******* *********** that create these situations in which animal shelters become a necissity. :furious3:

[Blodrast]

No problem, Dave - I'm glad there's several of us who feel the same way towards the irresponsible bastards.

As for the warning points, heh, yeah, save them for other occasions. I'll tell you something, I'm pretty sure that the staff keep this as a secret, but I just know they'll give cool prizes to the first member that accumulates over 1000 warning points. :clown:

[Husar]

I am a European in the sense that I was born and lived in Europe for the first 24 years of my life, however, I've been living in North America for the last five, five-and-a-half years.
Aren't you from Sweden?
Either I was hallucinating for the last years(not unlikely:sweatdrop: ) or you actually are from Sweden.

Concerning the topic, I'm not exactly an animal lover, but that's one of the reasons I don't have a pet. My sister wanted a pet once, got a bunny and then neglected it when she lost interest, my mom tried to care about it as good as she could because she liked the little thing but her time was limited and when it got sick, it slowly got worse and worse until it died on Christmas eve. I was the only one at home because I was sick and couldn't go to mess, but I actually felt sorry for the little thing, though I couldn't do anything about it. My parents didn't like the way it worked out either.
Apart from that I think my family never had any pets though my dad sometimes wanted a dog.

I think whenever you deal with lives of humans or animals, you should really think about the consequences before you ruin such a life and I'm quite surprised that a zoo is apparently unable to do that. Maybe the possibility of having an attraction that generates a lot of income overwhelms all considerations for the animals' well-being? some zoos quite like to collect rare animals it seems. And letting them die doesn't sound like preservation to me.

[Blodrast]

Aren't you from Sweden?
Either I was hallucinating for the last years(not unlikely:sweatdrop: ) or you actually are from Sweden.


Put down the smoke RIGHT NOW!! :laugh4:
No, Husar, perhaps you're confusing me with another member. I never suggested anything about where I was from (I know, because I was careful about that). Eastern Europe it is.



Concerning the topic, I'm not exactly an animal lover, but that's one of the reasons I don't have a pet. My sister wanted a pet once, got a bunny and then neglected it when she lost interest, my mom tried to care about it as good as she could because she liked the little thing but her time was limited and when it got sick, it slowly got worse and worse until it died on Christmas eve. I was the only one at home because I was sick and couldn't go to mess, but I actually felt sorry for the little thing, though I couldn't do anything about it. My parents didn't like the way it worked out either.
Apart from that I think my family never had any pets though my dad sometimes wanted a dog.

I know exactly what you're talking about. Taking a pet is a BIG responsibility, and most people don't seem to be aware of that, but rather treat them more or less as another piece of furniture, or a plant that needs a bit more maintenance. The most common cases I've personally met with are:
- oh, I'm gonna have a baby in a year - well, if you don't want the pet around the baby, that's fine, no problem, but what will you do, just throw the pet away ? Just don't get one. Sure, sure, the baby is more important than the pet, but it's YOUR responsability to make sure things don't get into a situation where it's either one or the other.
- well, but I still wanna go on vacation for x weeks! Well, :daisy: tough. You shoulda thought of that BEFORE you took the pet, and considered who's gonna take care of them when you leave on vacations or what not. Leaving them with food and water sufficient for a week is NOT good enough - most of them need human company. Also, how would YOU like to drink water that's a week old, or eat week-old food ?

I also commonly hear "Oh, they'll live". Yes, you :daisy:, they'll live. Is that why you got them, so they can merely "live" ? How would YOU like to be put in a cage roughly about your size, for, say, a week, be given sufficient food and water, have no human contact for that week, and with nothing to do (no tv or some such) ? You'll live, too.

I also have a very good example of lack of responsibility that I'm dealing with right now, but I'd rather not get into it. Suffice it to say that I was very disappointed that they didn't take the cats with them, even though that would have been perfectly doable and reasonable.

I'd also like a dog, but THE main reason I didn't get one so far is because I know myself, and I know I'd hate to have to take it outside 3-4 times a day - especially early in the morning, especially during winter, etc. Since I don't think I can do it properly, I'd rather not do it at all, than to get an animal and put him through misery just because I'm too lazy/comfortable/have a crappy schedule. Also, I think it's wrong to see that as a chore - if you don't enjoy taking your dog for a walk, then you prolly shouldn't have one. So if you see it as a chore, don't get a dog - as simple as that. I'd rather not do it at all than do it and hate to have to do it, because I know that some of that anger and frustration would sometimes reflect on the poor animal, who's innocent in all this.
It would be different if I lived in a house - I wouldn't have to let them out, they'd BE out. But until I do, I'm not getting a dog.

(Since we're on this, lemme restate my envy towards drone for his lovely huskies, which you can find in the Family thread in the frontroom).

[AntiochusIII]

I share Husar's sentiment: I'm not keen on pets but I don't like them mistreated either. They're not decorations, not even "pets" in the traditional sense (IMO), they're as close to family members as animals of different species get.

I also agree with Dave's opening post: if you're going to raise and "cage in" an animal the least you could do is imitate its natural environment -- habitat, fellow animals, and all -- and limit the human scare factor.

Though I must admit I'm a little angry now that this thread has ruined a scene in Love Hina for me. That scene where Naru is getting all tipsy in the aquarium [and the thousandth almost-kiss] is going to be forever tainted with "but she's getting her good mood from *tortured* creatures!!!" :laugh4:

[Yun Dog]

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070613/ap_on_re_us/whale_shark_dies
I've been wanting to head back home to the ATL and check this place out, but I don't think I want to give money to a place that keeps killing whale sharks. Whale sharks are a filter feeder and I just don't see how one of these fish would be able to survive in an aquarium (granted, its a huge aquarium, but an aquarium just the same). Now, I'm not against aquariums or people keeping fich (I have 2 myself) but I am against keeping fish, aquatic animals, invertabrates, etc) if the survival rate is not good. That's one of the reasons why I got out of the pet industry, in particular, the salt water part of it. i worked at a salt water whole seller for a year. It was sad seeing all those fish die through either shipping or just shock. God, I'd estimate that maybe only 10% of aqautic life make it to home aquariums, even less for live rock and stuff like that.

Anyway, I understand the arguements for species preservation, etc, but can you guys see my point. I just hate seeing these fantastic creatures die like this.:no:


Im with you completely on this one Dave, its become the human races solution to species extinction through loss of habitat - but look they are not extinct we have one in this zoo. When the last tigers left alive are the ones kept in cages - can we truley tell our children there are still tigers??

As far as fish - yep the losses in the aquarium game are huge - tropical fresh can handle it cause the numbers being imported are massive (particulalry tetras)

but the marine species are alot more fragile and the numbers alot less, so a high mortality rate is almost as bad as some dude fishing on the reef with dynamite - as with all things in the consumer society - out of sight is out of mind - as long as I can get my avocardos out of season and my red meat painted red, and my captive species now! cause tomorrow I will be bored with my new pet and dump it in the national park - beee freee - mr tiddles

Ive done pretty well in keeping all my original amazon tropicals with few losses, there was that time the heater went nuts - peeeuuu - but even then some survived. Plants, light and a regular water change - and your fish can survive for years - conditions of capture, transport, and display for sale are not as ideal. Tropical fresh and domesticated mammals is about all I can tolerate - birds - just feels so wrong to me to keep that beutiful parrot in a cage? I mean they can fly FFS - FLY!!! image being able to fly and living in a stell cage - could that be the worst torture?

[Tuuvi]

I also have a very good example of lack of responsibility that I'm dealing with right now, but I'd rather not get into it. Suffice it to say that I was very disappointed that they didn't take the cats with them, even though that would have been perfectly doable and reasonable.

Maybe the example you are talking about proves me otherwise, but I don't think it is a good idea to take a cat on vacation, they are very sensitive to new environments and doing so could be very stressful to them. However there are too many irresponsible pet owners, it's not that hard to call up the neighbor kid and pay him 20 bucks to look after your animals.

[drone]

(Since we're on this, lemme restate my envy towards drone for his lovely huskies, which you can find in the Family thread in the frontroom).
Thanks. I suppose I need to put up some updated pics now that the little one has grown up.

Those dogs are the first pets I have had. Before I got them, I could stay out all night, work long hours, etc. Now, I am on a schedule and have sacrificed a lot of my free time to take care of them. It's a commitment, and I know that I will probably have to live like this for the next 10-12 years. Siberians are beautiful, but they are smart, stubborn dogs that need lots of exercise and social interaction. Without this from the owner, they will get bored and destructive rather quickly. People who get them "because they're soooo cute" are usually overwhelmed, and this leads to lots of strays and rescues. I'm in a local club, and we try to both inform people about the difficulties with the breed and rescue those who need it. But some people just don't get it. :no:

[Blodrast]

Maybe the example you are talking about proves me otherwise, but I don't think it is a good idea to take a cat on vacation, they are very sensitive to new environments and doing so could be very stressful to them. However there are too many irresponsible pet owners, it's not that hard to call up the neighbor kid and pay him 20 bucks to look after your animals.

Oh, sorry, Lignator, my bad for not giving sufficient info on that example. Normally, I fully agree with you - cats are very territorial, and don't take too well to moving around - it's much better to leave them in their place, and have someone come and take care of them.
However, the important thing I left out is that in this case we're talking about 3+ months!
For a regular vacation (2-3 weeks), leaving them with someone to take care of them is ok, but for 3 months... I mean, I go to play with them every day, for about 1 hour - I consider that the bare minimum of attention & company they should get, and I'd like to go over there twice a day, but that is proving very difficult...

3 months with just 1 hour of human company per day, I don't think it's enough...

[Blodrast]

Thanks. I suppose I need to put up some updated pics now that the little one has grown up.

Those dogs are the first pets I have had. Before I got them, I could stay out all night, work long hours, etc. Now, I am on a schedule and have sacrificed a lot of my free time to take care of them. It's a commitment, and I know that I will probably have to live like this for the next 10-12 years. Siberians are beautiful, but they are smart, stubborn dogs that need lots of exercise and social interaction. Without this from the owner, they will get bored and destructive rather quickly. People who get them "because they're soooo cute" are usually overwhelmed, and this leads to lots of strays and rescues. I'm in a local club, and we try to both inform people about the difficulties with the breed and rescue those who need it. But some people just don't get it. :no:

So I take it you're in pretty good shape from running around with them a lot ? :beam:
Damn, wish I were still in GMU so that I could come play with them all the time ~D.