EB June Preview

[Krusader]

Greetings Europa Barbarorum fans.

We have a new preview for you showcasing some of the new stuff we are currently making. In addition to what is showcased here, we are also working on Pahlavi & Punic voicemods. This month we have some new units and reskins to show as well as some new content such as the Spartan Agoge system and new traits with historical information about the year you are currently playing. Also some information on historical battles being worked on.
Thanks goes out to antiochus epiphanes, spirit of rob, stefan25, Forgus and Xprime for their excellent units. Also to Orb & Teleklos Archelaou for writing This Year in History traits and abou for his Antiochos Historical Battles Pack which he is making alongside Eduardo, paullus & tk-421.


=======================================================

http://img38.picoodle.com/img/img38/8/6/13/t_MakArgyraspm_b0e29b1.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img38&img=/8/6/13/f_MakArgyraspm_b0e29b1.jpg)http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/8/6/13/t_selargyraspm_b52abbd.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img27&img=/8/6/13/f_selargyraspm_b52abbd.jpg)
Argyraspidai (reskin) :: Makedonia - Arche Seleukeia

http://img28.picoodle.com/img/img28/8/6/13/t_PGprevfinalm_6f97736.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img28&img=/8/6/13/f_PGprevfinalm_6f97736.jpg)
Pontos General/Family Member

https://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1940/pontic1hh1.th.jpg (https://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pontic1hh1.jpg)https://img124.imageshack.us/img124/1408/pontic2ip0.th.jpg (https://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pontic2ip0.jpg)
Early Pontic Bodyguards - They will be mounted of course. I believe he changed the shoes, but otherwise that should be it.

http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/8/6/14/t_pontos1m_72cddce.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img27&img=/8/6/14/f_pontos1m_72cddce.png)
Pontic Late Bodyguards

http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/8/6/13/t_ptolpeltastm_833183b.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img27&img=/8/6/13/f_ptolpeltastm_833183b.jpg)
Peltastai - Ptolemaioi

http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/8/6/14/t_thorakitaipm_31ab905.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img27&img=/8/6/14/f_thorakitaipm_31ab905.jpg)
Thorakitai - Ptolemaioi

http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/8/6/14/t_armoredindim_e2373f2.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img39&img=/8/6/14/f_armoredindim_e2373f2.jpg)
Armored Indian Elephant :: Baktria

http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/8/6/14/t_selecavm_7621142.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img33&img=/8/6/14/f_selecavm_7621142.png)http://img32.picoodle.com/img/img32/8/6/14/t_ptolem_a5d6738.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img32&img=/8/6/14/f_ptolem_a5d6738.png)http://img27.picoodle.com/img/img27/8/6/14/t_epirm_64c3e1d.png (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img27&img=/8/6/14/f_epirm_64c3e1d.png)
Lonchophoroi :: Arche Seleukeia - Ptolemaioi - Epeiros


=======================================================

'This year in history

Every year from 272 to 212 BC now has a detailed description of the events that took place in it with several authentic systems of dating:

For example, this is the year 255 BC


This year in history: Euboulos is Eponymous Archon of Athenai, in this 521st year after the first Olympiad, the second year of the 131st Olympiad. Servius Fulvius Paetinus Nobilior and Marcus Aemilius Paullus are both elected to serve their first terms as consul at Roma, in this 499th year ab urbe condita. The inundation of the Neilos marks the start of the season of Achet (in late October) and is reckoned as the 31st year of the Pharaoh Ptolemaios II Philadelphos.

In the Cyclades, Antigonos Gonatas secures the Island League, or Nesiotes, after defeating a serious defeat upon the Ptolemaic admiral Patroklos, but Argos becomes independent of Makedonia. Ptolemaios II and Antigonos Gonatas declare a truce. Antigonos restores the "liberty" of the Athenaioi. Akrotatos, king of Sparte, is killed while attacking Megalopolis. Leonidas II becomes regent at Sparte.

The peace negotiations between Regulus and Carthage ended because of his excessive demands (handing over Sicilia and Sardinia in addition to annual tribute). Regulus writes to the Senate and asks for another commander to be sent to replace him. The Carthaginians with the aid of a Lakedaimonian officer named Xanthippos, engaged as an adviser, corrected mistakes made in earlier battles against the Romani and in their next large battle near Tunis Regulus' cavalry left his flanks unprotected and after a hard fought battle he was taken prisoner (he is most likely killed soon after - the stories of his return to Roma are probably apocryphal). The Qarthadastim also besiege Aspis. With a fleet of 350 ships, the Romani sailed to Africa again to bring back the remainder of Regulus' force. They defeated a Punic naval force of 200 vessels off the Hermaean promontory and also defeated Hanno near Aspis. However, the Roman consuls insisted on sailing along the southern coasts of Sicilia, against their pilots' warnings, into dangerous waters. The Roman fleet is wrecked in a storm near Camarina and the waves sent nearly all their ships to the bottom of the sea. Only 80 men escaped the storm. Xanthippos leaves Kart-Hadast and returns home to Sparte. The Qarthadastim are forced to send Hasdrubal to command their army in Sicilia.


=======================================================

Antiochos III Megas Battlepack
by Abou, paullus & tk-421. Thanks to Eduardo for finding terrain for River Arius battle.

http://img39.picoodle.com/img/img39/8/6/13/t_ariusbaktrim_f14c2b2.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img39&img=/8/6/13/f_ariusbaktrim_f14c2b2.jpg)http://img38.picoodle.com/img/img38/8/6/14/t_magnesiaab8m_34f6844.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img38&img=/8/6/14/f_magnesiaab8m_34f6844.jpg)http://img33.picoodle.com/img/img33/8/6/13/t_panionwipm_3f985cf.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img33&img=/8/6/13/f_panionwipm_3f985cf.jpg)http://img40.picoodle.com/img/img40/8/6/13/t_raphiaphalam_a06ab1d.jpg (http://www.picoodle.com/view.php?srv=img40&img=/8/6/13/f_raphiaphalam_a06ab1d.jpg)
Arius River :: Magnesia :: Panion :: Raphia

"I'm hoping that this can be the first in a series of historical battles following certain historical figures throughout history - much like a narrative. Antiochos is I think a fair choice to begin with since he seems to get the short end of the proverbial historical stick. He was a man of incredible power and influence, but because of bad luck he is sometimes looked at as no more than that one guy from the east that Rome beat. John D. Grainger put it best in the introduction for his book The Roman War of Antiochos the Great:


When I suggested some years ago to a publisher that a biography of Antiochos the Great might be a good subject for a book the idea was rejected, yet there are biographies of some of the most obscure of Roman emperors. So a king who ruled all the lands from India to Greece for a third of a century is not regarded as a suitable subject, yet the half-mad emperors Nero and Caligula rate repeated study. The effect on world-history of these two men must be rated as minimal; that of Antiochos is almost as great as that of Alexander or Constantine.

Hopefully, with my work Antiochos's efforts may be elucidated - along with the rest of Seleukid history."
- abou


=======================================================

The Spartan Agoge
https://img503.imageshack.us/img503/6726/agoge1lz0.th.gif (https://img503.imageshack.us/my.php?image=agoge1lz0.gif)
Playing as the Koinon Hellenon, you now will have the opportunity to train your young generals in Sparte. Any general under the age of 20 who stays in the town for more than one turn will begin the agoge. Traits and script alerts will advise you what you need to do to successfully guide your character through the training. If they remain in the agoge for the full four years (two years in the agoge itself till they are 18, and two serving out service similar to that of ephebes), they will obtain traits based upon how they performed in the agoge, which performance is in turn based upon their own personal abilities. Other Hellenic factions who have captured or allied with Sparte may also have their sons trained in the agoge.


=======================================================

We hope you have enjoyed this preview of some of the new units and content.
Please note that unless stated otherwise, ALL pictures, names, and descriptions shown in our previews are works in progress. We continue to improve on all parts of EB, and we will continue to do so long after our initial release.
Since some areas where these news items are posted cannot handle wide images, we appreciate your restraint from quoting full-size images.
As always, if you have questions or comments, the best place to post them is here, where the EB team is most active:

Europa Barbarorum ORG forum (https://forums.totalwar.org/vb/forumdisplay.php?f=70)

Europa Barbarorum TWC forum (http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=31)

We give special thanks to Picoodle (http://www.picoodle.com) that provides us with a simple, foolproof, and free way to show you all these pictures each week.

Have a great day!


Sincerely,

The Europa Barbarorum team.

[Al-Masri]

Yaahh!!!!!

[Lovejoy]

I'm in loved. The Lonchophorois looks awesome!

Cant wait for the next patch! Keep up the good work!

[Pharnakes]

NOOOOOOOOOO! none of the pictures work for me! ~:mecry:~:mecry:

Anyway, great textual preview, if it could be then called a preview,although I couldn't help but spot a mistake: "after defeating a serious defeat upon the Ptolemaic admiral Patroklos", I suppose what is meant is "after inflicting a serious defeat upon the Ptolemaic admiral Patroklos" I expect that's already corrected in the internal version, though.


:sorry2: but I can't help myself.

[Elminster12]

Ooooh, love the Pontic general, and the agoge system sounds very interesting. Can't wait to take it for a spin...

[LusitanianWolf]

http://209.85.12.234/7243/153/emo/w00t2.gifhttp://209.85.12.234/7243/153/emo/w00t2.gifhttp://209.85.12.234/7243/153/emo/w00t2.gifhttp://209.85.12.234/7243/153/emo/w00t2.gifhttp://209.85.12.234/7243/153/emo/w00t2.gif
Coooooooool!!!!!!
Great work team, you guys rock!!!!!

[Imperator]

Wow. Every time I think of a gripe against EB, it seems like they've already made elaborate plans and are about to release a patch to remedy it! The missing historical battles was the only thing that made this mod somewhat less full than the original (your campaign, unit selection, depth, shiny-ness, and overall cool-ness is way ahead of RTW, though :sweatdrop: ) and now you've gone and made (vastly superior) historical battles too?
huzzah! :2thumbsup:

[Divinus Arma]

Excellent. Playing as Rome, I always transfer young men to Rome in order to attend the academy and enjoy the city for a few years. I have found that the traits produced are almost always favorable. This is a wonderful idea and one that I hope will be built upon in other ways. Character building has been an important part of the EB experience.

[Khazar_Dahvos]

thats a down right sexy pontic general. great preview guys and keep up the awsome work:2thumbsup: :juggle2: :2thumbsup:

[CountArach]

I'm lovin the Agoge!

[Redmeth]

Great stuff!
The Agoge training is very interesting, perhaps others factions will get something similar. You guys are turning this from a very good game(RTW) into one of the greatest games I ever played. I mean it.
Will the Year in History still be shown as traits on the Faction Leader, or did you manage to implement in some other way? (events or something else?)

[BerkeleyBoi]

My favorite thing about EB is the character development. With the Agoge system, I will definitely go back to playing a Greek civ!

[Kepper]

i have love Armored Indian Elephant :: Baktria, please release EB v 0.9 .

[Kralizec]

Great stuff. The Pontus bodyguards and the Hellenic cavalry look especially great.

I thought though that the Ptolemaioi were not given Thorakitai intentionally, as the description says that it was mainly the KH and Seleukids wich used them?

[pansoiatr]

I really like the Spartan Agoge.It is really one of these details that make EB historically accurate and a great game that really lets you fell and live the ancient world.
Excellent work:2thumbsup:

[keravnos]

i have love Armored Indian Elephant :: Baktria, please release EB v 0.9 .

Let me quote myself upon seeing the Armored Indian Elephant for Baktria... and the other factions who have it...(no won't say which they are)


.........:jawdrop: :thrasher:

want.in.game.now.

I don't think it is possible in this forum, but you guys might want to rep-up Krusader, as he was the "Elephant units task-master" or the "Elephantarchos" as the Seleukidai would call him. He was in charge of the whole thing, research, "who gets what and why", that sort of thing, and one great artist called "Stephan 25" for their implememtation. Just an FYI, because some accolades, especially on both these guys are truly deserved.

[Conradus]

I love the new Epeiros cavalery and the agoge system, I'll certainly play as a Greek civ next time, even while I was planning on something more barbarian/exotic.

[CountArach]

Thanks Krusader! :bow:

[The Persian Cataphract]

Oh yeah... I lied ~:joker:

[Warmaster Horus]

Each new preview, the EB team has the scandalising ability to shock people with great screens and features...

This time, it's no different. Great preview guys!

[blank]

Argyraspides are really nice...
Maybe mount them on the elephants for a super-cool unit?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Argyraspides are really nice...
Maybe mount them on the elephants for a super-cool unit?
Keep in mind we have all new elephant mounted soldiers already done and just waiting to get into the game too! Rob did all of those. That Baktrian armored elephant was the second draft that stefan submitted, so he's still working on them, and then I think he's off to the african ones.

Having shown the Pontic general above, and the late pontic bodyguards, have we not shown the early pontic bodyguards? Just wondering...

[Thaatu]

What exactly are the Lonchophoroi? If it's done, could we see the description for them? Please? Pretty please? Pretty please with...

[Foot]

Keep in mind we have all new elephant mounted soldiers already done and just waiting to get into the game too! Rob did all of those. That Baktrian armored elephant was the second draft that stefan submitted, so he's still working on them, and then I think he's off to the african ones.

Having shown the Pontic general above, and the late pontic bodyguards, have we not shown the early pontic bodyguards? Just wondering...

I think we forget them.

Foot

[Krusader]

What exactly are the Lonchophoroi? If it's done, could we see the description for them? Please? Pretty please? Pretty please with...

Why not.
First draft, written by Urnamma.

Hail Strategos! Arrayed before you are the fine noblemen who form a sturdy body of cavalry whose purpose is to crash into your foe and have the staying power to breach his line. Armed with stout single handed lances and the mighty aspis of our ancestors, they can unleash a terrible charge. Once they have inflicted gruesome casualties on our enemies, they will switch to their melee weapon and begin a close-in slaughter. While men in Epeiros or Makedon proper would have the sturdy Kopis, men further east may prefer the stout bladed war ax like that almost killed Alexander at the Granicus. They are armored with scale reinforced linen, greaves, and masked phrygrian helmets that betray naught but the angry face of Zeus Pater or wrathful Poseidon. They are best used as a general-purpose heavy cavalry. However, if facing the sturdier men from the east, or, Gods forbid, the elite Hetairoi or massively armored Kataphraktoi of the Seleukids and Baktrians, they may not have the staying power that they would have against other lighter cavalry. Use them well, and they will give your enemies naught but the death they so richly deserve!

Historically, the lancers of later Hellenistic armies were divided into several types. Some cavalry performed shock roles as a secondary function, with the charge itself being their goal, and thus it became necessary to develop a specific force of cavalry who could charge in support but lend staying power to their comrades. This sort of cavalry was used to great effect by the forces of Syracuse and Tarantum in the west, Epeiros, Pergamon and Makedon in the heartland of the Greek and Makedonian peoples, and the even the great Hellenistic kingdoms of Egypt, Syria, and Baktria. They appear on both sides at the battle of Magnesia, where they and the Pergamene Hetairoi checked the advance of more heavily armored Seleukid cavalry, allowing the Romans to roll up the line of Seleukid infantry. Still, they have some weaknesses, and should not be expected to defeat elite troops in prolonged battle.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I think we forget them.

Foot
Then I think we need to remedy that! :grin:

Here are stefan's awesome early pontic bodyguards!
https://img300.imageshack.us/img300/1940/pontic1hh1.th.jpg (https://img300.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pontic1hh1.jpg)
https://img124.imageshack.us/img124/1408/pontic2ip0.th.jpg (https://img124.imageshack.us/my.php?image=pontic2ip0.jpg)
They will be mounted of course. I believe he changed the shoes, but otherwise that should be it.

Here also is a little extra from xprime showing the Pontic bodyguard in action (NOT an in-game shot :laugh4:)!
http://www.eltommedia.pl/XPRIME_ROME/scene4.jpg

[The Celt]

Oh yeah... I lied ~:joker:
You stabbed me in the back!! Some noble Savaran you turned out to be.....:shame:

Seriously, great job guys! I love the new this year in history bit. I even read it with my fuax-Iranian accent and it was awesome! Will the Celts be getting these as well? Because in the current build, only the "civilized"(*spits*)faction leaders get these traits.:juggle2:

Also, the new Pontic general looks grand! Almost spot on with Caractos' portrait.(except, yah know, its in 3d and all...)BTW will other than the bodyguards will Pontos be getting any new units in the Infantry area? Y'all didn't give these guys much besides some Galatians. I think maybe the Arches should share some of their elites with the poor Pontics.:2thumbsup:

Kheili mamnun for this preview everybody! May your hard work not go to waste!

Celt out.:egypt:


PS:When are the Pahlavi getting their new General anyway?

[Foot]

BTW will other than the bodyguards will Pontos be getting any new units in the Infantry area? Y'all didn't give these guys much besides some Galatians. I think maybe the Arches should share some of their elites with the poor Pontics.:2thumbsup:

Pontos has always meant to use regional troops, but have a large selection of them, over their limited number of factional troops. Although that last sentence there is pretty much on the money for a new unit for Pontos.

Foot

[The Celt]

Pontos has always meant to use regional troops, but have a large selection of them, over their limited number of factional troops. Although that last sentence there is pretty much on the money for a new unit for Pontos.

Foot
Sweet.:2thumbsup:

BTW I noticed that the Dacian/Getian general/king/family member resembles a Late Roman/Early Byzantine general as far as armor and headgear. Did the Romans adopt a more eastern European armory after having so many emporers coming from that region? Or, was it simply a matter of fighting all those Goths that made them change? :inquisitive:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

There will be at least two new infantry units for Pontos though in the next build. We already previewed one of them and Rob has been working on another one.

[paullus]

And in answer to the thorakitai question, while it isn't as obvious just from reading the histories that the ptolemies used thorakitai, they are evident in the papyri and in some pictoral sources. they may not have formed as important a part of the army as they did in, say, the achaian league, or in the seleukid military (especially post-magnesia), but they certainly existed, and in pretty good numbers (and increasingly so from about 160 onward).

[Geoffrey S]

Awesome new units, and I'm looking forward to the campaign enhancements. But what I most like the look of are the new historical battles, I always enjoy those. Are they planned to be like the last few releases (such as Magnesia) or will they be like the vanilla historical battles, with introductory cutscenes, narration and scripted unit movements?

Anyway, great preview!

[I Am Herenow]

Whoa, looks great!

I have a few questions:


You said in that big Agoge diagram you had to own/be allied to Sparte to enlist in the Agoge - but can't Generals only attack cities they don't own, even allied ones? In other words, they can't enter the city.
Will it be fairly easy to get a General to go through the Agoge? It's just that with the amount of instructions for the player to follow, it seems like a general could easily fail.
After successfully completing the Agoge, will the bonuses just be +Morale and +Influence? I.e. no +Hitpoints or anything? Also, is it possible to complete all the Spartan training fully without going wrong but get absolutely no bonuses in the end?
Are you going to use Goth's lighting files in the new release? It's just that the historic battle screenshots seem to use the standard lighting.
Will the Agoge and Olympic etc. Games systems be linked in any way?Cheers! :beam:

[abou]

We might do some camera stuff, but no narrative intros. We are working on actively scripting some battles to make sure the AI keeps formations, which actually benefits the AI. The shot of Raphia in the preview actually shows scripting, which is why the lines are straight.

One of the reason I don't want to do narrative intros is because the descriptions I'm writing are all over 1,000 words. These will include detailed descriptions of events surrounding the battle explaining reasons for it and what happened afterwards. I've written three of them so far (Ipsus [won't be in this battlepack though], Raphia, and Arius). I don't know if tk is writing Magnesia or not. I would like to so I'll need to ask him.

If you guys are nice, maybe I'll post a rough copy of one of my descriptions so you get an idea of what my descriptions are like.

I also am not going to make these battles unnecessarily hard like in vanilla. Expect little to no chevrons.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

-You can't participate in Olympics if you are in Agoge, that is correct.
-When we say "ally" to Sparte, that means if you conquer them and choose a type4 "allied govt." for them. You would obviously have to have control on some level of the province of Lakonia to put your guys through it.

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

:bow:

Will Lonchophoroi also be available for Macedon? Will they pop up after some time, or will they be available right from the beginning?

[Geoffrey S]

Cheers Abou, that's exactly what I hoped to hear. Sounds like the historical battles are in good hands!

[spirit_of_rob]

Macedon have them aswell yeah they were already done as for when i dunno i just make units dunno how all the stuff ingmae works

[Centurio Nixalsverdrus]

Macedon have them aswell yeah they were already done as for when i dunno i just make units dunno how all the stuff ingmae works
Cool. Great to hear.:yes: :yes:

[Meothar]

What makes Lonchophoroi so special on the battlefield, except for their nice model and skin? For me, not familiar with military in these times, they seem like a standard medium-heavy cavalry.
Can someone explain how they were used in history and how they differ from other successor cavalry like Hippeis, Prodromoi etc?

[Bactron]

Super sweet. Thanks for this neat preview, I am thrive on!

[Karo]

loved the preview :2thumbsup: Cna't wait to play 0.9. And do Hayastan also get a new general and what is the diffrence between early and late bodyguard



Karo

[bovi]

One of them is early and the other comes later :clown:. You'll see the difference when it is released.

[I Am Herenow]

Will the new release use Goth's lighting files? And if so, which one?

[Watchman]

What makes Lonchophoroi so special on the battlefield, except for their nice model and skin? For me, not familiar with military in these times, they seem like a standard medium-heavy cavalry.
Can someone explain how they were used in history and how they differ from other successor cavalry like Hippeis, Prodromoi etc?Armoured cavalry with long one-handed "underhand" lances and large shields were AFAIK not an all that common Hellenic thing, as they were more into relatively light "all purpose" shielded cavalry on one hand and heavy unshielded shock types with first xyston and later kontos on the other. I wouldn't be surprised if they picked up the idea from the Galatians, Scythians (or other horse nomads) or both.

[Orb]

'Will the Celts be getting these as well? Because in the current build, only the "civilized"(*spits*)faction leaders get these traits. '

Indeed they do.

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

Will the new release use Goth's lighting files? And if so, which one?
That has yet to be decided. Goth is still doing a whole lot of work.

[The Celt]

'Will the Celts be getting these as well? Because in the current build, only the "civilized"(*spits*)faction leaders get these traits. '

Indeed they do.
Thx! Now maybe I won't be left in the Dark in my next Casse Campaign.

[DeathEmperor]

Incredible work guys congrats! :2thumbsup:

Special thanks to abou, paullus, tk-421, and my old friend Eduardo on the Antiochus III Megas battle pack :applause:

[Basileus Seleukeia]

Release 9.0. Now!:whip:
Can't wait to send my Seleukid king to the Agoge:laugh4:

[Spendios]

Release 9.0. Now!:whip:
Can't wait to send my Seleukid king to the Agoge:laugh4:

9.0 ? :inquisitive:

[Moros]

Will the new release use Goth's lighting files? And if so, which one?
Goth is a EB member now, so don't worry about his work, it'll get in. We haven't yet decided which lightning file shall be used. But perhaps we'll be using one lightning file as a standard but that the user could also choose to use one of the others. However we still have to make up our minds.

Also don't forget Goth is working on more than just the new lightening!

[Avicenna]

Wasn't it unusual to join in the agoge as a royal? Agesilias was an agoge product simply to make up for his cripple I think, and was an odd case among the royals.

Also, how does the Krypteia work when the helots are gone? :confused:

[The Persian Cataphract]

9.0 ? :inquisitive:

Meh, let him wander around; What the kiddies don't know is that we're actually at version 2.3 :smash:

...Oooops, there I said it ~:joker:

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Wasn't it unusual to join in the agoge as a royal? Agesilias was an agoge product simply to make up for his cripple I think, and was an odd case among the royals.

Also, how does the Krypteia work when the helots are gone? :confused: Helots aren't gone. Messenian helots are, but helots didn't come from Messenia alone. Kleomenes liberated certain helots even in 223/2, but even then the rest still had to face the Krypteia. Are you saying it stopped when they lost Messenia? :dizzy2:

When you say 'a royal', I suppose you exclusively mean the heir, is that correct? You're right that they didn't always go through it, but occasionally they did. All you have to do to stop them from going through it is remove them from the city. It's your decision - we allow either path.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

9.0 ? :inquisitive: If I'm not mistaken, EB is at the version 8.somewhat. So the next major release would be 9.0.
Edit: Btw, will Heterogenes be allowed to go through the Agoge? And what about all those Illyrian tribes the Epeirotians get as adoptees?

[Pharnakes]

0.8, not 8.0, therfore 0.9, not 9.0

[The Errant]

If I'm not mistaken, EB is at the version 8.somewhat. So the next major release would be 9.0.
Edit: Btw, will Heterogenes be allowed to go through the Agoge? And what about all those Illyrian tribes the Epeirotians get as adoptees?

All family members under the age of 20 may enter the Agoge. That includes adoptees of foreign ethnicity (Illyrians, Thracians). As long as it is a greek faction in control of Sparta.

The Koinon have the added benefit of having some generals that have already completed the Agoge come up for adoption. Some of their family members that come of age have also already completed the Agoge.

Be careful of whom you send though. The ungifted idiots don't necessarily improve from :whip: you send them to. They can actually get worse. A lot worse.

[Redmeth]

Private Pyle (if he would have missed) as your faction heir perhaps...?

[The Errant]

Private Pyle (if he would have missed) as your faction heir perhaps...?

Nah. If you ever read "The World According to the Koinon" there is a mention of a young family member with lots of bad traits. At a very young age. Under 25 if I recall correctly, he has already amassed all the neccessary traits for a dirty old man.

I've got what would propably be his long lost twin brother as one of my Epirote family members. Pyrrhos line seems to degenerate with every new generation ingame. :no:

There is a story. I don't know how true. Might be Greek propaganda but according to it. Darius or one of the great Persian kings of the Achamenids asked the opinion of a greek philosopher whether or not he should now as the great king move his capital from rugged Persia to the more hospitable lands of Babylonia and the two rivers.

The greek supposedly answered that it was in the ruggedness of the Persian land and the hardships they endured in everyday life that lied the strength to conquer and rule such a vast empire. And that should they move they would loose that edge and become unworthy of their glory.

Same problem here. Take my generals away from wintry Dodone. Send to soft Sparta or to get a decent education in Athens and all they do is pick up bad traits and useless ancillaries. One of them picked up a philosopher and matematician that claims the Earth revolves around the Sun. Preposterous. ~D

[Avicenna]

Helots aren't gone. Messenian helots are, but helots didn't come from Messenia alone. Kleomenes liberated certain helots even in 223/2, but even then the rest still had to face the Krypteia. Are you saying it stopped when they lost Messenia? :dizzy2:

When you say 'a royal', I suppose you exclusively mean the heir, is that correct? You're right that they didn't always go through it, but occasionally they did. All you have to do to stop them from going through it is remove them from the city. It's your decision - we allow either path.

I see. With the rebellious Messenian helots gone, I presume it is the Laconians that remain? If so, weren't they the loyal ones? From what I know the helot uprisings mainly comprised of angry Messenians, with the Laconians not that annoyed, and even serving in the phalanx under the Lacedaemonian banner.

By the way, is there any method whereby you can instantly transport far-away 'just come of age' generals to Sparta for the agoge?

[MarcusAureliusAntoninus]

By the way, is there any method whereby you can instantly transport far-away 'just come of age' generals to Sparta for the agoge?
You can move his father into enemy territory in the winter of his fifteenth year. If Sparta is your capital, he will appear there.

Or you could use the 'move_character' cheat.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

The Krypteia still existed into our mod's time frame for sure, terrorizing helots in the territories the Spartans still retained. I don't know when it died out for good without taking a look in some books though.

[Watchman]

I see. With the rebellious Messenian helots gone, I presume it is the Laconians that remain? If so, weren't they the loyal ones? From what I know the helot uprisings mainly comprised of angry Messenians, with the Laconians not that annoyed, and even serving in the phalanx under the Lacedaemonian banner.I was always under the impression it was controlling the Laconian serfs that was the Spartans' primary concern... and duly the habit of their enemies to stir those up for all manner of unrest. That the helots later had a "way out" through military service is unlikely to have really changed the overall situation by itself, any more than the prospect of becoming a Roman citizen through an army career cut down on popular uprisings against the more oppressive and exploitative bouts of Roman rule.

[I Am Herenow]

Will recruiting normal Spartiate soldiers now require an Agoge?


Also, if you capture Sparta as Rome or someone, will it be useless? And is the Agoge unique: i.e. if you destroy it as Rome, say, and then KH recaptures it, will they be able to build the Agoge again, or will that be it for Spartan training?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We thought about making it dependent upon a building, but it was too unwieldly and unlikely if one power takes it that it will be reclaimed by KH again. Especially if that power is the player.

[Basileus Seleukeia]

0.8, not 8.0, therfore 0.9, not 9.0
:oops:

[I Am Herenow]

Sorry, I'm a bit confused - does that mean that there is no "Agoge" building at all - it's just a matter of being inside Sparta for the training to happen?

Also, can Spartiate soldiers only be trained in Sparta? If that's not the case with .81av2, will it be the case with the next release?

Thanks! :D

[Nabaati]

The inundation of the Neilos marks the start of the season of Achet (in late October) and is reckoned as the 31st year of the Pharaoh Ptolemaios II Philadelphos.

More egyptologist-ese. I did a quick survey to see if I could offer a reconstruction, but 3xt doesn't appear to have survived into coptic and appears to be a lexicalized verbal noun of w3xj "to inundate (land)." Therefore, may I humbly suggest that Achet be changed to 3xt, which is the closest one can get to the transliteration of this word with normal fonts.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

"3"? Gah. I don't think it's possible for folks to pronounce that without knowing Egyptian. I can change it if there is something that english letters can represent, but numbers really are just too much mate. The only letters we have in the game that are not clearly pronounceable as english letters are the 'v's in the Latin titles/names, and those are common enough that we think folks can handle them. I can't say the same for w3xj or 3xt. If contemporary Greeks wouldn't have known what to do with it, I can't imagine any other person playing the mod besides yourself would know. :grin:

[sgsandor]

Truly Awesome job! I must admit I am partial to the Romani but these new units will be fun to destroy! great jo:2thumbsup: b guys!

[Nabaati]

"3"? Gah. I don't think it's possible for folks to pronounce that without knowing Egyptian. I can change it if there is something that english letters can represent, but numbers really are just too much mate. The only letters we have in the game that are not clearly pronounceable as english letters are the 'v's in the Latin titles/names, and those are common enough that we think folks can handle them. I can't say the same for w3xj or 3xt. If contemporary Greeks wouldn't have known what to do with it, I can't imagine any other person playing the mod besides yourself would know. :grin:

You do know there is a difference between orthography and speech, don't you? If the greeks at the time adopted the local season names, they would have had their own rendition of spoken egyptian and not said horizon-placenta-loaf of bread (if I'm remember the spelling correctly). Honestly, for a mod that prides itself on historical accuracy, I don't understand why yall love something that's fake as plastic, balk at reconstructing a small amount of egyptian or using the standard transliteration, but go and reconstruct a ton of proto-germanic - and I've seen threads discussing how to pronounce that as well. And last time I looked, it's not like the saba don't have consonantal skeletons as names for some of their buildings. I am squarely of the opinion that if your goal truly is accuracy, that when you make an attempt to render something in the local language, you should do so in an accurate manner. 3xt is the closest you can come to getting an accurate rendition. Achet is the residue of 19th century egyptological ignorance and does not reflect how egyptologists think this word was pronounced.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

We've had this conversation before. I can tell you that I don't think any team members would be supportive of having something like "3xt" as the name for anything in the game. We have a unit now without consonants (in our internal build) that is irritating as hell for us - it might come out with that temporarily even in a released version, but it's not what we want as a final goal.

"You do know there is a difference between orthography and speech, don't you?" You don't have to be an asshole about this either, of course we realize there is a difference. It's the reason why the Roman "V" vs. "U" thing was a difficult decision to make in the first place, because it was an exception to our general rules on the matter. I was trying to be friendly enough about this but I can see it really doesn't matter. I did say we were open to a better name, but you didn't want to discuss that part, so it's seems clear this isn't about making the mod more accurate.

This comes down to the way we render proper nouns - to summarize: we use the language the rulers of each province would have used, the closest transliteration into English we can get for the way the words were pronounced, and not the closest orthographical rendering we can get for the way the words were written (except for the Latin V vs. U issue).

[I Am Herenow]

Well, to be really accurate, surely you'd have to use Greek, Egyptian, Gallic etc. letters / hieroglyphs? But there's probably noone in the world who can read every ancient language perfectly, so it would probably detract from people's gaming experience (just my opinion). Besides, how do you pronounce "3"? People might think it's a typo and keep submitting bug reports, or saying "Why are you writing in 1337?" or something like that. Surely there's a way of saying the "3" sound (which I assume in this case isn't "three") using two or three normal Latin letters?

[Watchman]

I know I prefer renditions that are actually intelligible without having to delve into studies of obscure and long-dead languages, personally.

[Nabaati]

"You do know there is a difference between orthography and speech, don't you?" You don't have to be an asshole about this either, of course we realize there is a difference. It's the reason why the Roman "V" vs. "U" thing was a difficult decision to make in the first place, because it was an exception to our general rules on the matter. I was trying to be friendly enough about this but I can see it really doesn't matter. I did say we were open to a better name, but you didn't want to discuss that part, so it's seems clear this isn't about making the mod more accurate.

I said this because there are plenty of people that equate the two. I don't mean to be an asshole. As for a better name, if 3xt is unacceptable, the english translation "Inundation" is the only other accurate way of indicating the season. I don't currently have access to anything besides my own books, but from what I've seen, there's simply no way of knowing what vowels were in the word. This is the limitation of dealing with languages that didn't record vowels. I should mention that the last time I played the saba, their orthography was a bit of a mess as well. (Though, I should point out that I don't know south epigrpahic arabian, only some arabic.)


This comes down to the way we render proper nouns - to summarize: we use the language the rulers of each province would have used, the closest transliteration into English we can get for the way the words were pronounced, and not the closest orthographical rendering we can get for the way the words were written (except for the Latin V vs. U issue).

This is exactly my point. Achet is not in any way a rendition of ancient egyptian. 3xt is a rendition of the consonantal skeleton. A transliteration of of the actaul orthography would be slightly more complex, something like (3x)xt plus some determinative that I can't remember. I'm not suggesting you do a transliteration of the orhtography, I'm suggesting a transliteration of how egyptian is thought to have been spoken. Unfortunately, we don't know the vowels.

I didn't come up with the symbols used in transliteration. I'm sorry you find 3 objectionable, but all other traditional ways of representing glottal stops (? or `) are not anymore helpful. It's not a sound that was ever phonological in greek or latin, and therefore, there's no good way of representing the sound in modern English orthography. All I can say is I don't find it objectionable.

[The Celt]

I know I prefer renditions that are actually intelligible without having to delve into studies of obscure and long-dead languages, personally.
Same here. It was bad enough that we went with that Egyptian in Rise of Persia.:dizzy2: Do you know what infantry is written as in Egyptian? It's mnf.yt!! Or how bout archers? Which is tm3.w! Is that supposed to be ancient Egyptian? Or some kind of god damned Binary? I've even got one in Hieroglyphics! Take a look: :egypt: = :clown: (I think it says Egyptians are browns, but that last symbol is so hard to figure out. Maybe it needs a 3 in there?)

No, I think the Helleno-Latin spellings will do just fine.





PS:Nabaati, it's "Y'all". Not "yall".

[Redmeth]

How would they speak, if they didn't use at least some vowels, was it like grunts or how? Sorry if I'm silly but I'm really a noob in this and curious...
Is there no way to try and represent mnf.yt or 3xt phonetically?

[Watchman]

Far as I know nobody actually knows for sure what vocals fill the blanks in JHVH either, so people use both "Jahve" and "Jehova(h)" instead. The most common rendition of mnf.yt I've seen used in various books is "menfyt", which is at least intelligible to the average reader if not necessarily 100% faithful to the original.

But you gotta cut corners somewhere when the writing's for public consumption rather than specialist academic circles.

[Teleklos Archelaou]

I said this because there are plenty of people that equate the two. I don't mean to be an asshole. As for a better name, if 3xt is unacceptable, the english translation "Inundation" is the only other accurate way of indicating the season. I don't currently have access to anything besides my own books, but from what I've seen, there's simply no way of knowing what vowels were in the word. This is the limitation of dealing with languages that didn't record vowels. I should mention that the last time I played the saba, their orthography was a bit of a mess as well. (Though, I should point out that I don't know south epigrpahic arabian, only some arabic.)
Then we'll drop the Achet part, at least from the year in history event windows. They are easily editable and I've got the file for them right now. It was used in the first place to try and explain when their annual dating system began.

The ancient south arabian is not one of our strong points, but we were doing as best we could with it, but the team member who helped us there just bailed on us so we are stuck without any real ability to get further names or corrections for that faction currently. There seems to be very few people who really can help in that area, but we'd be interested if anyone knew of someone who could help with epigraphic south arabian.

[Narhon]

I will Impatiently wait for the release.

[Pharnakes]

Will Potus have factional heavy cavalry in the next build? Also, are the pontika sapaphet (SP) being completly abandoned, or will they become recruitable,or?

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Yeah, Pontos has a heavy cavalry that looks quite iranian and I must say that the AI loves giving them two units in custom battles (when you hit "AI selects" or whatever that is) and they are pretty formidable. Plus their bodyguards (early and late) are much better than they currently are. It seems like the current bodyguards are not going to be turned into a recruitable unit from what I hear, though I hate to lose them entirely.

[Pharnakes]

NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! I love those units. They can do anything, chop up Hetaroi, kataphractoi, the lot. ~:mecry:~:mecry:~:mecry:~:mecry:

[spirit_of_rob]

Truly Awesome job! I must admit I am partial to the Romani but these new units will be fun to destroy! great jo:2thumbsup: b guys!

You heathen! i spent ages on those cavalry and all you want to do is kill them! :furious3:

[The Errant]

Yeah, Pontos has a heavy cavalry that looks quite iranian and I must say that the AI loves giving them two units in custom battles (when you hit "AI selects" or whatever that is) and they are pretty formidable. Plus their bodyguards (early and late) are much better than they currently are. It seems like the current bodyguards are not going to be turned into a recruitable unit from what I hear, though I hate to lose them entirely.

You realise you just made Theophilattos obsolete. Never again will we see him riding to the rescue, with his sarcastic comments about the competence of his commanders. Or see him smoking that gitanes while stabbing Seleukids in the back with his spear. :sweatdrop:

Obelics! Artaserse! Have you seen this, this...SACRILEDGE!!!

[Teleklos Archelaou]

Well, I hate losing material that is already in the game too, but our eastern guys say that the unit would really need some work before it could be saved and so we'll have to see what happens.

[keravnos]

NOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!! I love those units. They can do anything, chop up Hetaroi, kataphractoi, the lot. ~:mecry:~:mecry:~:mecry:~:mecry:

You may not realise it right now, but you WILL know the error of your ways, soon now...:knight:

[Pharnakes]

You mean there's something even better comming?:clown:

[keravnos]

My lips are sealed.

[Wolfman]

Patience is the path to enlightenment:2thumbsup:. Meditate! And imagine all of the sweet new stuff EB 0.9 has in store for us.

[Watchman]

Outta curiosity, the new Late Pontic Bodyguards wouldn't happen to share model with the Hetairoi...?

[Krusader]

Outta curiosity, the new Late Pontic Bodyguards wouldn't happen to share model with the Hetairoi...?

Bingo.

[Watchman]

The feathers on the helmet plus greaves kind of gave it away. "No mystery can resist an agile mind !" :holmes:

[hoom]

I notice that the Pontic General screenie is using the RTW Gloss effect, I know EB has said you won't use that but well, that screenie shows why I think its sorely missed.

Regarding the Lonchophori, doesn't one of the descriptions of Cannae talk about Hannibal screening his deploying army with them & slingers?
That bit normally being interpreted as meaning macedonian phalanx/african heavy infantry or some sort of javelin skirmisher.
So will we be seeing Carthiginain Lonchophori too?

[Foot]

I notice that the Pontic General screenie is using the RTW Gloss effect, I know EB has said you won't use that but well, that screenie shows why I think its sorely missed.

We have never said that. Most of our units do not use gloss maps, but that is not because we don't want to use them, they are simply a low priority and are often overlooked by our current skinners. Xprime is an exception and I believe always makes gloss maps for his units.

Foot

[hoom]

There are actual ingame units with gloss?
Yes EB has said won't use gloss, can't find the quote but it was something about 'baked in to the textures'.
Anyway, really looking forward to seeing ingame units with gloss :)